Doc_musketeers

The other local couple I've mentioned published a cache recently and they instantly disabled it with a note that one of them would be at GZ for some unexpected last minute work. We shot out a WN that we’d come watch and the rest of the local “crew” started listing what they’d bring (popcorn, cream eggs ...) to the supposed impromptu event. (obviously we all waited. And the cleverness was worth the wait, lol)

Locally there’s a handful of active cachers. A few veterans, a few single-digit newbies another relatively new couple and our team. The other young couple and us are pretty active placing new hides, and we went through a period of being FTF on each other’s new caches. Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

Wow. Interesting. We do love the FTF race ... but honestly part of it for us is the interaction with the other players. There’s a lot of friendly teasing in WNs (“Better start looking for your shoes, [player x]!”) as for the goodies, we won $1 yesterday! Lol probably wasted $5 in gas. We make custom team “FTF” fridge magnets as the prize for our non-XS hides. We’ve left in-activated TB dog tags in our puzzle caches. it is funny because that is usually the first muggle question: “What do find in geocaches?” I cringe when I see the game referred to as a “treasure hunt” lol. I like your differentiation between hobby and game. Really true.

Last night I thought about why it does feel insulting (and confusing) when somehow the condition of another COs cache comes up and its implied that I should have taken particular actions regarding their cache. firstly, that criticism usually comes from those who feel the game is already in a downward spiral and that poor cache maintenance is a symptom of that decline. Let’s accept that claim (I’m a proponent for better maintenance but won’t (can’t?) accept that the game is in its death throes). There are three options: 1) I stick to the idea that every cache I encounter should be in perfect order. Missing, full or wet log? Nope. Won’t take the Find even if I have an acceptable substitute log with me. Heck, listing said CO placed a pencil inside! It’s gone! Just use mine? No way I’m enabling this deadbeat CO! I’ll Post an NM or even NA and walk away. 2) I give in to the debauched, honorless game Geocaching has become and carry throw downs, post finds if I think I merely found the empty hidey-hole, prop up obviously abandoned caches, etc. 3) I accept that the game has changed. Some COs aren’t as responsive as I consider proper. I vow to set a good example with my own caches and post DNFs, NMs even NAs as needed. I will praise other responsible players and those who seek to improve. But my acknowledgment of a changing game will allow me to find a personal compromise. If a cache is listed, and I make the appropriate effort and find the container, but there is a relatively minor issue (broken, lid missing, in-signable log), I will, as far as my conscience allows, determine how to claim the Find as defined in the guidelines. I’m going with number three ...

That would be interesting if even FTF were created ... I assumed it was player-created because it just seems like a natural game for people to start. Any two kids on the playground will race to whatever’s across the field.

Some of the responses to the OP here have basically implied that the guidelines leave it to each player to decide ... yet as you perfectly point out, a player can manage to log a Find using loopholes but those who know the circumstances would consider it a “cheat.” Obviously there are as many opinions as there are players... but as I watch the threads on questions like this, I’m able to see whose opinions come from a fair point of view and are based on the game’s principles. They are players who see the problems in the game but still promote it, seek to improve it, and enjoy playing! Those are the players I wouldn’t want to give reason to privately condemn my game play. Some other comments seem to be merely bitter rants about what’s wrong with the game today. Such players don’t just lament days gone by but practically condemn the whole game. Their posts don’t welcome and encourage new players but discourage and blame them for the problems that do exist. And the deciding factor for me in taking advice: they don’t seem happy. In some cases they’ve given up whole aspects of the game. It’s like getting marriage advice from your friend who says “I’ve been divorced 3 times, listen to me, I know how this works.” Mere quantity of experience does not prove success. Should it earn a respectful hearing? Yes. Does it mean I should then do exactly what was advised? For one thing a good student never simply copies their teacher. They apply knowledge gained to their circumstances. The only actionable advice I get from some of those posts is quit the game before it gets worse (or before my newbie presence makes it worse.)

Many have commented that adding player-to-player competition to the game has been one impetus for some playersat least looking for loopholes if not outright “cheating” when it comes to Finds. And don’t the Guidelines specifically forbid hides that require accomplishments that rely on “beating” other players (eg FTFs for a challenge)? But now even the “Friend League” seems to promote competition. Who gets the high score for the week! If I need just one more Find to beat my buddies ... I suppose it encourages people to get out and play, and that kind of game doesn’t limit others ability to play like an FTF challenge does- my finding 100 caches this week doesn’t prevent you from doing the same but whenever there are deadlines, people get desperate. But as I think Garyo1954 alluded to a while back, people change the rules of games like Monopoly to be able to play how they want to. Does GS create options for head to head competition in response to player demand? I mean “we” created the FTF race sub-game, didn’t we?

Well (a) we like him and already consider him a Geocaching Friend, lol. (B) I’m still proud that he figured we would be active enough to be worthy “team members,” even though it doesn’t work that way I don’t really care about the “friend”’thing. Its not like social media where you need the “friendship” to be part of their online life. We were in a busy stage of life when the promotion came out last year so haven’t had a reason to pool scores. I didn’t even know the Friend League had the weekly leader feature until I went to the page to be ready for this new promotion. And! That thought let’s me transition back onto topic (or at least a closely related side topic) which I’ll make a separate post, lol.

I’m not sure it’s the best word tho... I had to go back and correct spelling twice on mine and saw it misspelled at least once on someone else’s post. Once you start typing the h’s u’s and a’s it’s hard to keep it straight. so you’re getting flamed on the forum and type “chiuhahua!” ... the attacker looks carefully, says “nope, that’s not the safe word” and moves in for the kill.

Absolutely right. I read through the threads about the confusion on this and KNOW this. I guess I forgot about it in my excitement ~sigh ~ so much for newbie vindication. At least I fell asleep last night with a bit of geocaching self esteem. It was nice while it lasted. Lol

It seems that us newer players might at times unintentionally contribute to what some of the veteran cachers see as a degradation of the game. It obviously came up a few times in this thread ... BUT! Our neophyte team has found out we have at least one useful characteristic: One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.” I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Well, in lightheartedly commenting that this thread had drifted a fraction of a degree off its original heading, I seem to have spun the wheel hard and put us on the reef in chihuahua infested waters.

Oh, man. Back to back posts ... dipping plastic and chihuahua identification 101.

Apparently they vary in weight from 3.3 to 6.6 pounds. But I’m not sure what that range would be in apples and sandwiches.

Lol. I wanted to read the last few hours worth of new posts on this thread and clicked the link ... read something about PMO caches and thought I’d tapped the wrong link. Did it twice more ... funny how many threads end up discussing cache maintenance and PMO caches. I swear I could start a thread asking “do hamsters or small chihuahuas make better swag?” then ignore the thread for a day or so only to jump back in to debate whether the results are the CO’s fault for not putting air holes in their caches or the community’s fault for enabling the situation by freeing the animals instead of slamming the lids back down and posting NMs.

Well, my wife and I made the climb for the T4.5 from the OP this morning. We tried to do our best with the added controversy of dealing with a broken container (yes we had to leave a replacement log, yes we posted an NM). But we BOTH made the climb, in fact I made it twice because somehow we ended up on top without either of our phones. (I didn’t even realize we could still detach them from our hands, geez, just imbed a chip in our brains and get it over with!). I clambered down and back up for some “summit” pics. Personally, I’d rate it a 3.5 at most, but I guess needing to time it with the tide can be considered added “terrain” difficulty. No sign of our non-aquaintence couple, but we gave them a shout out in our log. This is a fun spot. Worth the climb even without a cache. I can see why it gets found by muggles, the rock is an obvious magnet for reckless adolescent climbing, it even entices those of us who should know better, lol.

Sad, really. And mostly it’s their loss ... except that as the longtime players comment it eventually influences CO attitude, which in turn creates another level of disconnect, and the downward spiral continues. i guess our team is fortunate that there’s a handful of local players that, as far as I can tell, match the description of “the good old days.” One of them will publish a new cache and others may even chime in with WNs joking about the FTF race or some other aspect. It lets COs know their efforts are appreciated- at least among the local regulars, and it makes reading the logs a bit more interesting, almost part of an ongoing story of that cache and the interacting players. Often there’s useful hunting info, but no matter what it beats a column of “TFTC”s

It’s funny because when I started this thread what I thought would be frustrating is seeing the cache mere feet away but being physically unable to personally grab it. I envisioned cachers still having the desire to participate as fully as possible in the retrieval process. The concept of able-bodied cachers not even bothering to watch was inconceivable. I suppose that is the result of power-trail type hides where the next match container is hidden exactly like the last 20 ... granted that’s not exciting— but on a high D or T cache? Sure, our team might split up responsibilities but we are all present and actively participating and when the Cache is in hand we are all three scrabbling to open it up, look through any swag, check the log for familiar or famous signatures, etc. I simply can’t see the pleasure of the game otherwise.

Ahh! Interesting. I guess I view creating challenging caches as a service to the hunter ... as many on this thread have commented, totally circumventing the Experience that the CO intended you to have seems to miss half the fun. It seems a bit like cheating at a solitaire card game. Obviously from my OP I could see situations where providing assistance or making it a team effort is a consideration, but walking along with a group and having my name signed by someone else on a cache I didn’t even see doesn’t even seem fun. Why bother? Bragging rights? To whom?

This is something that confuses me as a newer player. The only thing we see as direct competition is racing for FTF. When it comes to challenges- say filling your d/t “Fizzy”- we can see how it affects reaction to caches (if a neglected cache is the only local one that fills a square, Finders may help it limp along). But even that isn’t really cacher -against- cacher competition. is there some other form of competition being referring to? I guess there’s the Friend League thing ... do people actually cheat just for “weekly leader” or whatever? or is it more a change in attitude- players somehow turning personal bragging rights into “competition?”

The only thing that came across as a personal insult was your quoting back the guideline when what I was basically asking was for input in applying that guideline in a particular situation. I didn’t mean to belittle your suggestion to add a better container. My feeling was just that if anything could be seen as propping up an abandoned cache, leaving something that some might consider a “throw down”’would be worse than a temporary measure that didn’t let the CO off the hook. And I really don’t see a way to secure it and wasn’t sure you understood that part of the equation. I think there’s a difference between “just adding paper” and forgetting ... versus going through the steps, finding the cache, and creating a way to claim that find, and still following up by posting an appropriate NM. I’m sure lots of cachers will agree that me that posting a NM from 100+ miles away is not a trend they want to see, even if justified in this case. and again, I’ve repeatedly stated I don’t think the couple is standing at the base of the rock waiting for us to help them, their note just raised the subject in our mind. As for the CO, I didn’t count how many active caches he has of those 801. There’s the whole “How many is too many” discussion, but again, these were WNs on that cache, not NMs. And the comment about the broken lid is 5 sentences into a note that starts off saying the cache is in place, the cable is working, etc. Even with far fewer caches, I could see a CO not catching the maintenance issue raised in this note. As for not checking a cache preemptively, I totally agree that two years is a pretty big gap, even for a remote or high T cache. Our team hopes to hold to a higher standard for our hides. You’ve seen and commented on threads we’ve started discussing exactly that issue. It seems like the situation of that cache upsets you - but it’s not my cache. Just because I still want to climb a rock and see what’s actually going on before placing a NM does not make me complicit in its condition. As niraD posted very early in this thread “opinions are numerous and varied” as to what is “right.” As newer players, we have to find our own standards. Just because a discussion continues doesn’t mean your advice was ignored. Not to mention your advice seemed to change from “replace the cache” to “log an armchair NM” within a couple posts. It’s obvious you have a set of conditions that trigger one or the other response even to this one cache, which means it’s not so cut and dry. I don’t see how our searching for a solution in between those two options is somehow outside your idea of Geocaching logic.

Umm, as I’ve said, I have no idea yet if this cache is really being neglected. It’s a somewhat remote area. There are no ignored NMs or even DNFs. There is only a 2-day old WN explaining the cache container is lidless. They didn’t post a NM. We will post one if we make it to GZ. I don’t view it as “propping up” a cache just because I’m contemplating the potential that there isn’t a log there at this moment and being prepared to have something sign-able after the effort. For goodness sakes if I post a NM that the lid IS missing, I’ll be the first to post a NA if it didn’t get attention in a month! ETA: I went back to the COs profile. Couldn’t find a single Reviewer Archived Cache. Lots of remote caches, but once someone raised an issue, he either fixed them or archived them. Your previous response: OK. Was I missing your sarcasm? Because you acknowledge that it appears CO is active. You give very specific recommendations for a replacement cache, the tone of which seems sincere, and you ask for pictures, which again, unless you were being cruelly sarcastic, implies that the cache location/challenge is interesting. At what point did I start ignoring your advice or calling bully? In fact, believing you were sincerely interested I started discussing OT details of potential temporary remedies. It wasn’t until you “reread” the listing and dismissed everything you had been discussing as proof the game was going downhill. Besides the not so veiled personal insult, there has been quite the spectrum of opinion expressed on this thread about applying that concept. sometimes the simplest phrases can lead to the most debate because we have to apply the principles in specific circumstances. (Think about the Constitution!)

But you are a frequent commenter on a forum designed to help all players understand and improve this game. I’m new, yes. Have I seen things that discourage me? Of course: Muggles, careless cachers, negligent COs. But I for one want to keep playing. I come to the forum for advice not to try to further destroy the game. I’m all ears! It doesn’t help to lament better days gone by. It certainly doesn’t make sense to expend so much energy discussing something that discourages you. I shared a listing with you, personally, to help you understand a situation. While you are certainly free to respond, somehow it resulted in you talking down: the cache, the CO, the couple, me, and the whole Geocaching game ... I don’t get how that sort of response will change things, and if you don’t think they CAN be improved I don’t see what you hope to gain from commenting on them? As for my OP, seeing that couple’s note on this cache made us realize we didn’t have a clear set of Team guidelines for this very hypothetical situation. We came to the forum to lean on people like you - with decades of experience- to help us. The EXACT situation: people, cache, etc. wasn't the focus, just the impetus to explore a grey area of the game.

My “toss the log” comment was in jest. They actually state that the cache is 75’ from the porch on the cabin ... unless the log was actually a stone tablet I doubt we could literally chuck it that far, lol. But your idea of some sort of assist is more in the spirit of what we were contemplating. Or just offering to place some swag for them (in a muggle-besieged lidless Cache, for whatever that would be worth, lol). again, I doubt they are around anymore anyway. Maybe I’ll message them? If they are still around, maybe having them get a photo of us at GZ might be nice for all involved, or at least help explain things to our medical and/or life insurance company.

You are right about a couple things: the couple is not returning to the resort cabin that overlooks the Cache. This was their last visit. It was the slight possibility that they still might be there this weekend that made us consider this. and, no, this couple in their late 60’s never planned to attempt it. If I somehow implied that, it was in error. As for the CO, who I do not know, they have responded at least four times to issues at this cache, the last time an OM just to check on it in 2016. There have only been 6 logs since then: 3 finds, 2 WN from the visiting older couple and one WN from us. There is nothing here that seems to fit the “leave it and forget it since I’ll never be here again” mentality I envision when the term “vacation Cache” is used negatively. ”Abandoned?” That won’t be arguable for at least a month, assuming we post a NM tomorrow. The WN with the pic of the lidless Cache was posted 2 days ago. Your apparently flippant remark about us rewarding it a FP makes no sense to me since we never extolled the virtue of this cache beyond having an amusing side story, the fact it fills a square for a sub-game, and the beach itself looks fun to explore. The maintenance situation of this cache has absolutely zero to do with me and zero to do with this thread. As for your complaint about “found the location not the cache ...” logs, That too is really another discussion. But I’ll still respond to your implication: Personally, finding a frayed tether and claiming that must have been where the cache was attached? Nope. But, Finding an obvious container that’s simply missing a lid attached to that tether? And I can match it to pictures of it when it was intact? And when the CO has specifically mentioned the likelihood that contents may be muggled? No problem calling that a Find. Im not sure if you now consider me one of those players that have “changed” (and apparently affected the game for the worse). If so I’m truly confused and sorry to have contributed to your discouragement with a game I sincerely enjoy and respect.