+NW_history_buff Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) Well? The category would only accept those buildings of a historical nature that contain some factual significance attached (an interesting story to tell, for example), such as a marker/placard, interpretive display, newspaper article, online historical database description, or some other tangible evidence of a building's dark and seedy past in which 'ladies of the evening' played host to those gentlemen with a particular inclination... I'm thinking along the line of categories like Converted Bank Buildings, Converted Firehouses, Converted Factories, Retired Prisons and Former Schools -- we would focus on those buildings that served a prior life as 'The Best Little Whorehouse in __(fill in the blank)___' but now serve a different life. The category would NOT include buildings that no longer exist -- only existing buildings will suffice. There already exists a category for Nude Beaches so content could be potentially R-rated, but I would imagine most, if not all, submissions would be kept PG (we can make this a requirement). This could be a fun and 'educational' category! Edited August 25, 2017 by thebeav69 Clarification Quote Link to comment
+SwineFlew Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I can always trust a Beaver fan to do this. Go Ducks! 1 Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I think this is a cool idea -- fun, interesting, global Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 We already have a couple of them in the bank, so go for it. This one is historical, one of our favourite departments. We'll even volunteer as officers. Keith Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 I've created a Group titled Former Brothels that is open for membership as I pursue a potential new category: http://www.Waymarking.com/groups/details.aspx?f=1&guid=2d2858c9-234f-4756-92a9-65bb6e7b09e5 Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 How recently former is former? Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, elyob said: How recently former is former? Good question. Other categories similar to this proposed category require 50 years or older for a building. That would be a good start, although I'm inclined to make it more like 75 years for a building to have last housed the oldest profession in the world. Quote Link to comment
+pmaupin Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 In France these houses have been banned since 1946 Quote Link to comment
+GeoMaulis Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, pmaupin said: In France these houses have been banned since 1946 Yes. That is the reason because we have no former Brothels in the state of Saarland (Germany at the french border). All French customers came to the Saarland. So our brothels are open and in perfect condition . 1 Quote Link to comment
+pmaupin Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, GeoMaulis said: Yes. That is the reason because we have no former Brothels in the state of Saarland (Germany at the french border). All French customers came to the Saarland. So our brothels are open and in perfect condition . Quote Link to comment
+tyzack4 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I like this as an idea, there is a former house of ill repute near my house in England, although it has now become a curry house. Quote Link to comment
+GeoMaulis Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) Found a very nice one in Hamburg: Hotel Village . Unfortunately It was a brothel until the end of the 1980s. Edited August 25, 2017 by GeoMaulis Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) Why not include buildings that have been serving a different purpose since the 1980s? That might get us Waymarking in neighbourhoods that we would not normally visit. Edited August 25, 2017 by elyob Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 The question is: What kind of prove is accepted for this category? Here in Vienna, we also have a hotel that once was a brothel, but they avoid mentioning that on their website. I found the info in an online article about the prostitution in the old days of Vienna. The article doesn't mention when the brothel was closed and I have no idea how trustworthy the author is. In an article of an old newspaper I read about a man whose mother in law had a brothel. They also mention the exact address. But again I couldn't find any info about when the brothel closed. Seems like a tough task to find a valid waymark that is additionally worth visiting and not just another boring building. Quote Link to comment
+Alfouine Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 The main problem will be to have support informations, because a lot of these houses were really discrets or hidden. Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 We may actually have to find support in off-line material like local histories and newspapers but that just adds to the fun. 1 Quote Link to comment
+pmaupin Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 There existed many of these houses in the military garrison towns Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, elyob said: We may actually have to find support in off-line material like local histories and newspapers but that just adds to the fun. I believe the challenge of this potential category is finding legitimate material as proof that a building was once home to a house of ill repute -- but I strongly believe that there is plenty of material out there, albeit in a marker/plaque, a newspaper article, historical database PDF document or something similar. I agree, it will add to the fun and encourage Waymarkers to do a little research, much like what happens in the aforementioned categories (Converted Bank Buildings, Converted Firehouses, Converted Factories, Retired Prisons and Former Schools). **UPDATE** I have given the random year of 1950 and earlier for Former Brothels to have been in business to qualify in the category. I've also decided that any Brothel after 1950 can be submitted on a case by case basis if the historical background warrants enough merit to justify inclusion in the category. (Why did I decide on the year 1950? It sounded like a good number. ). Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 5 hours ago, thebeav69 said: **UPDATE** I have given the random year of 1950 and earlier for Former Brothels to have been in business to qualify in the category. I've also decided that any Brothel after 1950 can be submitted on a case by case basis if the historical background warrants enough merit to justify inclusion in the category. (Why did I decide on the year 1950? It sounded like a good number. ). I like that last update. Seldom is there mention of exactly when a brothel went out of business, usually because it's not often known for certain. And yes, 1950 is a good number, though I don't remember it all that well. Keith 1 Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share Posted September 1, 2017 A Former Brothels category and description have been created and is ready to be viewed for content, suggestions and general input: Former Brothels Thanks! Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Q - what is the difference between sex trafficking (not waymarkable) and prostitution (waymarkable). That's the only question I had - the description looks great otherwise. Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) A prostitute might be considered a sex worker. "Some" might say that the prostitute chose the career path. Victims of sex trafficking are victims, 100%. Your question should have us all question: do we really want a Waymarking category based on the abuse of others? Yes, I understand that the prostitutes have not been "employed" since 1950 but it's still a delicate subject. Edited September 2, 2017 by elyob 2 Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 Sex trafficking involves sex slaves and abuse and any building that once housed this abusive activity would be excluded. I can elaborate more in the description to point this out. Again, the focus is on the BUILDINGS that once housed prostitution and not the prostitutes or the clients who frequented them. It's a piece of history that most countries had tolerated, legal or illegal, and whether or not people agreed with the profession, the buildings themselves are a reminder of our past and shouldn't be ignored, but remembered. On 8/24/2017 at 8:48 PM, elyob said: How recently former is former? Good question. Other categories similar to this proposed category require 50 years or older for a building. That would be a good start, although I'm inclined to make it more like 75 years for a building to have last housed the oldest profession in the world. Quote Link to comment
+Alfouine Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 This category should only waymark historic former brothels and before 1950 is OK A lot of categories publish waymarks of historical victims (War, Hunger, Racism,...) and there is no problem. Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Perhaps a way around the prostitution/sex trafficking distinction is the allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities. Sex trafficking is a horrifying criminal activity, and occurs all over the world. I am not sure to what degree such organized criminal activity was tolerated in the 19th century, but the former brothels I have seen that are preserved as historical sites made some pretense of subtlety and class, not obvious dens of the basest cruelty, depravity, and iniquity. Which is not to say those places did not exist, just that few of them have been preserved and interpreted, from what I have seen. Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 I think this is a good category. Existing historical markers prove the point. However, I thought it was better that I raise the concern here in the forum rather than have someone else hijack peer review. 1 Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 14 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said: Perhaps a way around the prostitution/sex trafficking distinction is the allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities. Sex trafficking is a horrifying criminal activity, and occurs all over the world. I am not sure to what degree such organized criminal activity was tolerated in the 19th century, but the former brothels I have seen that are preserved as historical sites made some pretense of subtlety and class, not obvious dens of the basest cruelty, depravity, and iniquity. Which is not to say those places did not exist, just that few of them have been preserved and interpreted, from what I have seen. A good take. I'll try working in these points in the long description. Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said: ...allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities... Indeed! Essentially everywhere we have found former brothels they were BOTH illegal AND tolerated by authorities (AND usually patronized by those same authorities). (In 1968-69 I was in Amsterdam a couple of times. That sure opened a naive country boy's eyes.) Keith Edited September 4, 2017 by BK-Hunters Quote Link to comment
+GeoMaulis Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Brothels have a long history. The first definable mention can be found in a judical file from the ancient greek town of corinth (probably opend before 400 AD). There are indications that already 700 AD the first brothels were opened by the greek statesman Solon. However, the source situation in this case is not clear. Also in ancient Rome there were brothels. The best preserved is in Pompeii (Lupanar) and is one of a total of 25 brothels found so far. I think we all agree that sexual exploitation an sextourism are unacceptable and awful. But the category does not want to glorify or trivialize prostitution. Rather, I think that by the historical reference also the chance exists to direct the view of the living conditions of the women in these houses and also on the problems arising from prostitution until the present times. 1 Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 9/4/2017 at 0:32 AM, GeoMaulis said: Brothels have a long history. The first definable mention can be found in a judical file from the ancient greek town of corinth (probably opend before 400 AD). There are indications that already 700 AD the first brothels were opened by the greek statesman Solon. However, the source situation in this case is not clear. Also in ancient Rome there were brothels. The best preserved is in Pompeii (Lupanar) and is one of a total of 25 brothels found so far. I think we all agree that sexual exploitation an sextourism are unacceptable and awful. But the category does not want to glorify or trivialize prostitution. Rather, I think that by the historical reference also the chance exists to direct the view of the living conditions of the women in these houses and also on the problems arising from prostitution until the present times. Great take on it. I'm still interested in pursuing this potential category and am currently working on a good, well-written long description to convince potential naysayers. More to come. Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 After spending this week fine-tuning the Former Brothels category, it just passed the officer vote portion and is now ready to go to Peer Review. We officers appreciate all those who contributed to this potential category, either as a member of the category group or here in the forum. Below is a blockquote from the category's description that in my opinion, explains the mission of the category: "*NOTE* This category's aim is NOT to glamorize the business of prostitution but to appreciate the historical aspects of the many sites that existed in many neighborhoods around the world. This category does NOT condone any information submitted of a vulgar or crude nature. Buildings which once served in the sex-trafficking business will NOT be allowed in this category. While we officers admit that prostitution was responsible for exploiting many women throughout history, we also understand that many communities have purposely preserved their own stories of the profession via historical markers and plaques as a way of sharing with visitors of how life 'used to be.'" We officers believe this category fulfills all requirements in the voting process: (interesting and informative; worldwide sites to waymark; non-repetitive with other existing categories). The category will only accept existing buildings which once housed the 'oldest profession in the world.' We also require tangible proof that a building once housed a brothel, via a plaque, marker, internet article, book or similar. We hope you all will agree that this category merits inclusion in the Waymarking community. NW_history_buff BK-Hunters pmaupin GeoMaulis 2 Quote Link to comment
+NW_history_buff Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 CADS11 voted 'Nay' based off the contradiction in the naming convention requirement. Wow, I didn't even notice it but he/she is correct. This will be corrected to require the naming convention to reflect the name of the former brothel (what it was known as) and not the current name of the building. Just goes to show that just when you think the category's description is 'perfect' before a Peer Review. Quote Link to comment
+QuesterMark Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I just voted, typed a bunch of stuff, submitted, and came here to read. Saw elyob's post about not hijacking the vote, so I went back and removed most of my text, but didn't change my vote. So here's what I removed: "I read this category description yesterday, and gave myself a day to think about it. I have a big problem with your disclaimer, or rather the fact that the disclaimer is needed. I had to go see what the definition of "sex-trafficking" is, and for good measure looked up brothel and bordello as well, just to be sure I had my terms straight. (spelling note: The definitions I found for "sex-trafficking" don't have the hyphen.) Sex trafficking is, essentially, the modern slave trade specializing in sex. Another way to put it is forced prostitution. I understand you're trying to protect Waymarking and waymarkers from coming into contact with human trafficking. Similarly, you're trying to avoid legal issues with the 1950 time limit. The problem is that we can't know about the human trafficking part. Perhaps that former brothel was an iconic part of the American West, but we do not know the circumstances of the employees. One or more of them could have been in a human trafficking situation. And since I'm typing this as part of my decision-making process it occurs to me that many Old West Saloons could be thought of as brothels--but not all of them, or not all the time." 1 Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 Peer Review can be like a spectator sport. Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 I think it was successful -- any idea when it will show up on the grid? Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 What’s the hold up — anyone? 2 Quote Link to comment
Bon Echo Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 13 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said: What’s the hold up — anyone? My guess - and I did not participate in the vote since I am not a PM - is that it passed Peer Review and GS-HQ is trying to decide whether it is an appropriate category, or if changes are required. I think we saw this once not long ago (2-3 years ago) - I don't remember the category, but there was a delay after peer review while GS reviewed the category and they came back with some changes to be made. 1 Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Manville Possum said: I believe that we have the right to know what happened in peer review and not let's just bury our heads in the sand until everyone forgets. "Category Status: Your group's category, Former Brothels has been denied by the Waymarking community." Unfortunately, this did not pass peer review. I usually keep the comments to review after peer review, however must have deleted them. If I recall correctly many that were a nay that could be seen, most were to do with the fact that it was for "Former Brothels" and not for the historical significance. I suppose it is like "burying our head in the sand" about the fact that Former Brothels were a part of most if not all cultures, so if you do not acknowledge that they existed, than I suppose they did not. I have noticed that in peer review, once a few nay votes are cast then others just follow along. It is like a copy and paste vote... In view of some recent approved categories, Former Brothels seems more interesting and worthy of a category. Quote Link to comment
+cerberus1 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Rather than burying their heads in the sand, could it be that some might have concerns with the name "former brothel" and the current owners? - Somewhat of a difference between "Formal Brothel" and Converted Firehouse or School ... I could see the property's current owner upset that a group of folks are about taking pics, and find that group is casting their property in a bad light (it might belong to a church, private home (with kids), or an orphanage now...), contacting the site for removal. Quote Link to comment
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