Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3
NW_history_buff

Former Brothels

36 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Well?

The category would only accept those buildings of a historical nature that contain some factual significance attached (an interesting story to tell, for example), such as a marker/placard, interpretive display, newspaper article, online historical database description, or some other tangible evidence of a building's dark and seedy past in which 'ladies of the evening' played host to those gentlemen with a particular inclination... B)

I'm thinking along the line of categories like Converted Bank BuildingsConverted Firehouses, Converted FactoriesRetired Prisons and Former Schools --  we would focus on those buildings that served a prior life as 'The Best Little Whorehouse in __(fill in the blank)___' but now serve a different life. The category would NOT include buildings that no longer exist -- only existing buildings will suffice. 

There already exists a category for Nude Beaches so content could be potentially R-rated, but I would imagine most, if not all, submissions would be kept PG (we can make this a requirement). 

This could be a fun and 'educational' category! :P

 

Edited by thebeav69
Clarification
0

Share this post


Link to post

I can always trust a Beaver fan to do this. :)

 

Go Ducks!

1

Share this post


Link to post

I think this is a cool idea -- fun, interesting, global

0

Share this post


Link to post

We already have a couple of them in the bank, so go for it. This one is historical, one of our favourite departments.

We'll even volunteer as officers.

Keith

0

Share this post


Link to post

How recently former is former?

0

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, elyob said:

How recently former is former?

Good question.  Other categories similar to this proposed category require 50 years or older for a building.  That would be a good start,  although I'm inclined to make it more like 75 years for a building to have last housed the oldest profession in the world. ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post

In France these houses have been banned since 1946

0

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, pmaupin said:

In France these houses have been banned since 1946

Yes. That is the reason because we have no former Brothels in the state of Saarland (Germany at the french border). All French customers came to the Saarland. So our brothels are open and in perfect condition :D.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, GeoMaulis said:

Yes. That is the reason because we have no former Brothels in the state of Saarland (Germany at the french border). All French customers came to the Saarland. So our brothels are open and in perfect condition :D.

 

;););):lol::lol:

0

Share this post


Link to post

I like this as an idea, there is a former house of ill repute near my house in England, although it has now become a curry house.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Posted (edited)

Found a very nice one in Hamburg: Hotel VillageUnfortunately It was a brothel until the end of the 1980s.

Edited by GeoMaulis
0

Share this post


Link to post

Posted (edited)

Why not include buildings that have been serving a different purpose since the 1980s?  That might get us Waymarking in neighbourhoods that we would not normally visit.

Edited by elyob
0

Share this post


Link to post

The question is: What kind of prove is accepted for this category? Here in Vienna, we also have a hotel that once was a brothel, but they avoid mentioning that on their website. I found the info in an online article about the prostitution in the old days of Vienna. The article doesn't mention when the brothel was closed and I have no idea how trustworthy the author is.

In an article of an old newspaper I read about a man whose mother in law had a brothel. They also mention the exact address. But again I couldn't find any info about when the brothel closed. Seems like a tough task to find a valid waymark that is additionally worth visiting and not just another boring building.

0

Share this post


Link to post

The main problem will be to have support informations, because a lot of these houses were really discrets or hidden.

0

Share this post


Link to post

We may actually have to find support in off-line material like local histories and newspapers but that just adds to the fun.

1

Share this post


Link to post

There existed many of these houses in the military garrison towns

0

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, elyob said:

We may actually have to find support in off-line material like local histories and newspapers but that just adds to the fun.

I believe the challenge of this potential category is finding legitimate material as proof that a building was once home to a house of ill repute -- but I strongly believe that there is plenty of material out there, albeit in a marker/plaque, a newspaper article, historical database PDF document or something similar. I agree, it will add to the fun and encourage Waymarkers to do a little research, much like what happens in the aforementioned categories (Converted Bank BuildingsConverted Firehouses, Converted FactoriesRetired Prisons and Former Schools).  

**UPDATE** I have given the random year of 1950 and earlier for Former Brothels to have been in business to qualify in the category. I've also decided that any Brothel after 1950 can be submitted on a case by case basis if the historical background warrants enough merit to justify inclusion in the category. (Why did I decide on the year 1950? It sounded like a good number. :P).

0

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, thebeav69 said:

 **UPDATE** I have given the random year of 1950 and earlier for Former Brothels to have been in business to qualify in the category. I've also decided that any Brothel after 1950 can be submitted on a case by case basis if the historical background warrants enough merit to justify inclusion in the category. (Why did I decide on the year 1950? It sounded like a good number. :P).

I like that last update. Seldom is there mention of exactly when a brothel went out of business, usually because it's not often known for certain. And yes, 1950 is a good number, though I don't remember it all that well. ;)

Keith

1

Share this post


Link to post

A Former Brothels category and description have been created and is ready to be viewed for content, suggestions and general input:

Former Brothels

Thanks!

0

Share this post


Link to post

Q - what is the difference between sex trafficking (not waymarkable) and prostitution (waymarkable). That's the only question I had - the description looks great otherwise. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post

A prostitute might be considered a sex worker.  "Some" might say that the prostitute chose the career path.  Victims of sex trafficking are victims, 100%.  Your question should have us all question: do we really want a Waymarking category based on the abuse of others?  Yes, I understand that the prostitutes have not been "employed" since 1950 but it's still a delicate subject.

Edited by elyob
2

Share this post


Link to post

Sex trafficking involves sex slaves and abuse and any building that once housed this abusive activity would be excluded. I can elaborate more in the description to point this out. Again,  the focus is on the BUILDINGS that once housed prostitution and not the prostitutes or the clients who frequented them.   It's a piece of history that most countries had tolerated,  legal or  illegal,  and whether or not people agreed with the profession, the buildings themselves are a reminder of our past and shouldn't be ignored,  but remembered.  

On 8/24/2017 at 8:48 PM, elyob said:

How recently former is former?

Good question.  Other categories similar to this proposed category require 50 years or older for a building.  That would be a good start,  although I'm inclined to make it more like 75 years for a building to have last housed the oldest profession in the world. ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, elyob said:

Your question should have us all question: do we really want a Waymarking category based on the abuse of others?  Yes, I understand that the prostitutes have not been "employed" since 1950 but it's still a delicate subject.

 

I will not support the category.

1

Share this post


Link to post

This category should only waymark historic former brothels and before 1950 is OK

A lot of categories publish waymarks of historical victims (War, Hunger, Racism,...) and there is no problem.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps a way around the prostitution/sex trafficking distinction is the allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities. Sex trafficking is a horrifying criminal activity, and occurs all over the world. I am not sure to what degree such organized criminal activity was tolerated in the 19th century, but the former brothels I have seen that are preserved as historical sites made some pretense of subtlety and class, not obvious dens of the basest cruelty, depravity, and iniquity. Which is not to say those places did not exist, just that few of them have been preserved and interpreted, from what I have seen.

0

Share this post


Link to post

I think this is a good category.  Existing historical markers prove the point.  However, I thought it was better that I raise the concern here in the forum rather than have someone else hijack peer review.

1

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Perhaps a way around the prostitution/sex trafficking distinction is the allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities. Sex trafficking is a horrifying criminal activity, and occurs all over the world. I am not sure to what degree such organized criminal activity was tolerated in the 19th century, but the former brothels I have seen that are preserved as historical sites made some pretense of subtlety and class, not obvious dens of the basest cruelty, depravity, and iniquity. Which is not to say those places did not exist, just that few of them have been preserved and interpreted, from what I have seen.

A good take. I'll try working in these points in the long description. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

 ...allow waymarks where prostitution was either legal OR tolerated by authorities...

Indeed! Essentially everywhere we have found former brothels they were BOTH illegal AND tolerated by authorities (AND usually patronized by those same authorities).

(In 1968-69 I was in Amsterdam a couple of times. That sure opened a naive country boy's eyes.)

Keith

Edited by BK-Hunters
0

Share this post


Link to post

Brothels have a long history. The first definable mention can be found in a  judical file from the ancient greek town of corinth (probably opend before 400 AD). There are indications that already 700 AD the first brothels were opened by the greek statesman Solon. However, the source situation in this case is not clear.

Also in ancient Rome there were brothels. The best preserved is in Pompeii (Lupanar) and is one of a total of 25 brothels found so far.

I think we all agree that sexual exploitation an sextourism are unacceptable and awful.

But the category does not want to glorify or trivialize prostitution. Rather, I think that by the historical reference also the chance exists to direct the view of the living conditions of the women in these houses and also on the problems arising from prostitution until the present times.

1

Share this post


Link to post
On 9/4/2017 at 0:32 AM, GeoMaulis said:

Brothels have a long history. The first definable mention can be found in a  judical file from the ancient greek town of corinth (probably opend before 400 AD). There are indications that already 700 AD the first brothels were opened by the greek statesman Solon. However, the source situation in this case is not clear.

Also in ancient Rome there were brothels. The best preserved is in Pompeii (Lupanar) and is one of a total of 25 brothels found so far.

I think we all agree that sexual exploitation an sextourism are unacceptable and awful.

But the category does not want to glorify or trivialize prostitution. Rather, I think that by the historical reference also the chance exists to direct the view of the living conditions of the women in these houses and also on the problems arising from prostitution until the present times.

Great take on it. I'm still interested in pursuing this potential category and am currently working on a good, well-written long description to convince potential naysayers. More to come.

0

Share this post


Link to post

After spending this week fine-tuning the Former Brothels category, it just passed the officer vote portion and is now ready to go to Peer Review. We officers appreciate all those who contributed to this potential category, either as a member of the category group or here in the forum. Below is a blockquote from the category's description that in my opinion, explains the mission of the category:

"*NOTE* This category's aim is NOT to glamorize the business of prostitution but to appreciate the historical aspects of the many sites that existed in many neighborhoods around the world. This category does NOT condone any information submitted of a vulgar or crude nature. Buildings which once served in the sex-trafficking business will NOT be allowed in this category. While we officers admit that prostitution was responsible for exploiting many women throughout history, we also understand that many communities have purposely preserved their own stories of the profession via historical markers and plaques as a way of sharing with visitors of how life 'used to be.'"

We officers believe this category fulfills all requirements in the voting process: (interesting and informative; worldwide sites to waymark; non-repetitive with other existing categories). The category will only accept existing buildings which once housed the 'oldest profession in the world.' We also require tangible proof that a building once housed a brothel, via a plaque, marker, internet article, book or similar. We hope you all will agree that this category merits inclusion in the Waymarking community. 

NW_history_buff

BK-Hunters

pmaupin

GeoMaulis

 

2

Share this post


Link to post

CADS11 voted 'Nay' based off the contradiction in the naming convention requirement.  Wow, I didn't even notice it but he/she is correct. This will be corrected to require the naming convention to reflect the name of the former brothel (what it was known as) and not the current name of the building. Just goes to show that just when you think the category's description is 'perfect' before a Peer Review.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post

I just voted, typed a bunch of stuff, submitted, and came here to read.

Saw elyob's post about not hijacking the vote, so I went back and removed most of my text, but didn't change my vote.

So here's what I removed:

"I read this category description yesterday, and gave myself a day to think about it.

I have a big problem with your disclaimer, or rather the fact that the disclaimer is needed.

I had to go see what the definition of "sex-trafficking" is, and for good measure looked up brothel and bordello as well, just to be sure I had my terms straight.
(spelling note: The definitions I found for "sex-trafficking" don't have the hyphen.) Sex trafficking is, essentially, the modern slave trade specializing in sex. Another way to put it is forced prostitution.

I understand you're trying to protect Waymarking and waymarkers from coming into contact with human trafficking.

Similarly, you're trying to avoid legal issues with the 1950 time limit.

The problem is that we can't know about the human trafficking part. Perhaps that former brothel was an iconic part of the American West, but we do not know the circumstances of the employees. One or more of them could have been in a human trafficking situation.

And since I'm typing this as part of my decision-making process it occurs to me that many Old West Saloons could be thought of as brothels--but not all of them, or not all the time."

0

Share this post


Link to post

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 3