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Geocaching Ethics!

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25 minutes ago, arisoft said:

There is possibility that geocaching is a non-competitive game.

Wow.  I was tempted to say there is a possibility that monkeys... but I won't.

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening? :huh::blink:

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27 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening? :huh::blink:

The poster said that there is  possibility that this hobby isn't competitive.

After the other 2/3rds got FTFs out of her system, we have no competition with anyone.

I believe logs are there simply to say "Yes, this is a nice spot!  Thanks for showing it to me.",  thanking the CO, and not a "score".   

 - If you've done similar caches that have views that are  breathtaking, maybe you  might have seen it that way too.  :)

Guess I thought "swag" was there just to keep the kids busy, while you sit a spell, or to grab a "souvenir" of that fun spot, leaving another in it's place.

 

However, there's nothing "wrong" with those who choose to make this a competitive game.

I think you know that already, and maybe just looking to keep stirring that pot...

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29 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score...?

You see it as competitive, so you see it as "keeping score", presumably because you compare your score to other people's scores. I see it as individual, so I see it as tracking my progress. I look at other people's numbers in order to see how much progress they've made, not to compare their progress to my progress.

30 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

...why are there logs...?

There are logs so we can tell each other about our experience. I don't even understand how logs contribute to any kind of competition unless you see bragging as a significant part of logging.

31 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

...why is there swag...?

There's swag because some people like swag. I have even less idea how this has anything to do with being competitive.

32 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

...why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?

Some people can make anything a competition for themselves. That doesn't make it a competition for anyone else.

32 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening?

Good point. I have no problem with competition, I just ignore people that mistakenly think I'm competing with them.

In this thread, which is about falsifying logs, being competitive can be a problem when the person being competitive loses sight of the fact that the competition is in the actual caches found, not in invalid claims of caches found. That leads them to report things which are not true, thus degrading the information available to others.

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22 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

Wow.  I was tempted to say there is a possibility that monkeys... but I won't.

Thank you!

25 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

When one is collecting those virtual items, It is an integral part of the game to count them and build statistics. You may count how many children you have but does it mean that you are competing with a neighbor with the number of children? I don't think so. Of course a geocacher may try to compete with an another geocacher but It is more likely that they will go together to look for caches than try to win a friend or someone else.

42 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening? :huh::blink:

Not at all. But there is no cake in this competition. I have seen how this goes. The first thought in the beginner's mind is to develop to the best of the best geocacher until he realizes that there are no prize pools left in this game. You can only overcome the goals you set yourself. For example, I try to get one FTF in every month, but I am not going to compare the length of this streak with anyone else.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, RufusClupea said:

Wow.  I was tempted to say there is a possibility that monkeys... but I won't.

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening? :huh::blink:

I never had a problem with competition until I noticed it started driving the types and sheer numbers of caches being placed as geocaching became more about the numbers than about the hunt. I'm surprised that Power Trails haven't gone the way of virtuals. As virtuals took off, stricter requirements were put in place to attempt to discourage poor quality caches. Even though I enjoyed virtual caches, I can understand that the argument that they weren't true geocaches as they were lacking a container and logbook. I'm really surprised that power trails have been allowed to drive geocaching in the opposite direction of the original spirit of the hobby. 

Edited by TahoeJoe
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8 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

However, there's nothing "wrong" with those who choose to make this a competitive game.

I think you know that already, and maybe just looking to keep stirring that pot...

That's what I've been saying right along, because that's what it is--a competitive game--by every definition I'm familiar with.

Maybe those who insist it's not are just looking to keep stirring the pot...

Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

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44 minutes ago, RufusClupea said:

Wow.  I was tempted to say there is a possibility that monkeys... but I won't.

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening? :huh::blink:

Geocaching didn't used to be this way. All the numbers and statistical stuff has come about over the years. I consider geocaching a hobby, with no winners or losers. Now days, most people see it as more of a competitive game that can be scored.

What's wrong is that people do goofy things because they see the competition (saying they found the most caches) as somehow being important. I'm competitive myself but i wouldn't ever knowingly cheat at any game. Unfortunately, this is not the case for a lot of people. Some seem to take this stuff too seriously and end up rationalizing ways to claim finds on caches or in some cases, flat out cheat. In geocaching, this sort of stuff can sometimes cause problems for other cachers. For the most part though, it usually only garners a rolling of the eyes from the more honest people that have a little bit of common sense.

Logging caches used to be more for, well,, keeping logs of a cacher's experience. These days however, they're mainly used for keeping score since very few consist of anything more than an acronym or a couple or three words. Because of this, a newer person is going to see it as part of a competition.

Swag has been around since the beginning. Yes, it is sad to see so many people refuse to trade up or even. But at the same time, i don't see swag as adding to the perceived competition..

 

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58 minutes ago, dprovan said:

You see it as competitive, so you see it as "keeping score", presumably because you compare your score to other people's scores. I see it as individual, so I see it as tracking my progress. I look at other people's numbers in order to see how much progress they've made, not to compare their progress to my progress.

Please don't put words in my mouth or thoughts/intentions in my head.  I see it as competitive because there are so many ways of keeping score (among other defining attributes).

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There are logs so we can tell each other about our experience. I don't even understand how logs contribute to any kind of competition unless you see bragging as a significant part of logging.

So far, I haven't seen a single cache log (the ones that are signed inside the cache--i.e. the ones I'm talking about--not the ones on the cache sheet) that mentions anything about experiences other than a quick "TFTC" or "Great Hide".  The largest category--Micros--don't have room for much--if anything--else.  Their purpose seems to be one of the ways of keeping (or proving) score.

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There's swag because some people like swag. I have even less idea how this has anything to do with being competitive.

I've seen swag described as souvenirs, items for trade, and rewards for finding a cache.  At least 2 of those qualify as things to accumulate (a way of keeping score,and one of the 3 objectives of games, i.e. race, accumulation, position).

 

Edited by RufusClupea
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1 hour ago, Mudfrog said:

These days however, they're mainly used for keeping score since very few consist of anything more than an acronym or a couple or three words.

I think the 'quality' of the hides also contributes to this. When I first started caching, I barely wrote anything in the logs. A few months later we hid our first cache and I learned that CO's get an email of the logs. Since then, I do try to write a short story about our experience; but there are times where you find the 5th key holder in a guard rail in one day. What can you possibly say at that point? 

As a tangent thought, if you feel the number of "finds" you have is making it an unwanted competition, then don't log them online! The requirement to log a find online is to sign the paper log, but there is no requirement to log a find on the website.

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5 hours ago, dprovan said:

In the other class, like golf and geocaching, you do your best, and you win when your best is better than your competitor's best. The thing about that second class is that there's no particular reason to identify a competitor, thus playing the game but eliminating the competition.

That sounds like the way I play pool at work. I scatter the balls around the table, then alternate between sinking solids and sinking stripes. Eventually, I sink all of one or the other, and then I sink the eight-ball. Yes, pool is a competitive game, but I don't play it in a competitive way.

And I don't geocache in a competitive way either.

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Surely a competition requires at least two competitors, all of whom realise that there is a competition and who have agreed to take part in the competition.

Geocaching, in general, doesn't meet these criteria. 

If someone decides to try and get more caches than I do this coming weekend, it isn't a competition unless I realise what they are doing and unless I agree to take part.  Somebody's find count (or DNF count or find rate or average D/T rating) may be higher than someone else's.  They may be proud of their achievements, but it isn't a competition unless the other guy is competing.

 

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1 hour ago, Gill & Tony said:

Surely a competition requires at least two competitors, all of whom realise that there is a competition and who have agreed to take part in the competition.

Geocaching, in general, doesn't meet these criteria. 

If someone decides to try and get more caches than I do this coming weekend, it isn't a competition unless I realise what they are doing and unless I agree to take part.  Somebody's find count (or DNF count or find rate or average D/T rating) may be higher than someone else's.  They may be proud of their achievements, but it isn't a competition unless the other guy is competing.

 

Perhaps we should call it bragging rights and the competition is in their own minds. Personally I think it's a male thing where evolution hasn't caught up  yet. :wacko:

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3 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

Surely a competition requires at least two competitors, all of whom realise that there is a competition and who have agreed to take part in the competition.

Geocaching, in general, doesn't meet these criteria. 

If someone decides to try and get more caches than I do this coming weekend, it isn't a competition unless I realise what they are doing and unless I agree to take part.  Somebody's find count (or DNF count or find rate or average D/T rating) may be higher than someone else's.  They may be proud of their achievements, but it isn't a competition unless the other guy is competing.

 

Why would someone secretly try to snag more caches then you this weekend without mentioning their intentions? 

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6 hours ago, niraD said:

That sounds like the way I play pool at work. I scatter the balls around the table, then alternate between sinking solids and sinking stripes. Eventually, I sink all of one or the other, and then I sink the eight-ball. Yes, pool is a competitive game, but I don't play it in a competitive way.

And I don't geocache in a competitive way either.

If you weren't playing by yourself it would be a competition. 

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3 hours ago, SeattleWayne said:

If you weren't playing by yourself it would be a competition. 

Quote

Competition is, in general, a contest or rivalry between two or more entities, organisms, animals, individuals, economic groups or social groups, etc., for territory, a niche, for scarce resources, goods, for mates, for prestige, recognition, for awards, for group or social status, or for leadership and profit. It arises whenever at least two parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared, where one's gain is the other's loss (a zero-sum game).

As you see, many aspects of competition, according to this Wikipedia article, suits very well to geocaching in general. When you do geocaching you may "win":

  • territory
  • niche
  • scarce resources
  • goods
  • mates
  • prestige
  • recognition
  • awards

I have seen everything in this list to happen in geocaching, but I do not know against whom I should compete, and whether he or her has the same goal. The real competition happens during the FTF hunt when several players are pursuing the same unique goal and this is not a part of the official game.

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5 hours ago, SeattleWayne said:

Why would someone secretly try to snag more caches then you this weekend without mentioning their intentions? 

That's the point. How can geocaching be competitive without others consenting to be part of the competition?

I can run down a busy sidewalk and yell at everyone that I've won, but that doesn't mean much if nobody else knew it was a race.

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16 hours ago, RufusClupea said:
18 hours ago, arisoft said:

There is possibility that geocaching is a non-competitive game.

Wow.  I was tempted to say there is a possibility that monkeys... but I won't.

If it's non-competitive, then why are there so many ways of keeping score, why are there logs, why is there swag, why are so many people making it about numbers, etc?  ;)

And perhaps most importantly, what's wrong/the problem with it being competitive?  Is that somehow threatening?

I can think of a couple of things about how competition can have a negative impact of the game.  If in the pursuit of "winning" geocachers will willingly  engage in practices which violate or play fast and loose with the guidelines which, in some cases demonstrates a lack of integrity and honesty. Personally, I'd rather see a perception of the game as one where players are honest and play with integrity than one where players will do almost anything to increase their find count.

In most cases, competition in the game is based on quantity.   The more the better.  When cache owners are placing large numbers of caches to satisfy geocachers driven by number of finds, their motivation isn't to create quality hides.  When quantity take precedence over quality the game, iMHO, suffers.

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For me, and I think for the majority of cachers, Geocaching is generally non-competitive.   We cache for fun, not to win.   

However, there are aspects which can be competitive.   Clearly, for many, FTF is one.   To get there first you need to get there faster than others.

I've also seen friendly competition locally with various local series which have their own stats.   E.g. the Church Micro series in the UK.  Church Micro Statistics.  A specific example within those statistics:  There is a record of 186 Church Micro finds in a day.   Second place is 179.   That group with 179 are friends of mine, they set out to break the record, but didn't succeed.   They did this for fun.. for a challenge. but also, they wanted to hold the record.   I call that "competition".   

And I don't see anything wrong with it, if it is done in a fun way, and isn't the main motivation.  

Where competition can become a bad thing is if people take it too seriously.    This didn't happen, but for example if the group with 179 were to accuse the group with 186 with cheating as they split into sub-teams at one point and the other team didn't.. etc.   

 

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8 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I can think of a couple of things about how competition can have a negative impact of the game.

In real competition players should remove every cache they find or at least make them harder to find, as it improves their chances of winning. I have seen this happening. :mad:

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5 hours ago, narcissa said:

I can run down a busy sidewalk and yell at everyone that I've won, but that doesn't mean much if nobody else knew it was a race.

More to the point, it wasn't a race. You just imagined it was.

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One of the cool things about geocaching is:  If you WANT it to be a competition, it absolutely can be. If you DON'T WANT it to be a competition, it absolutely isn't. 

For me, it is just a hobby. I challenge myself to certain goals/objectives simply to keep myself from falling away in the day to day, to inspire myself to try out different things in this hobby, and to keep it fresh and creative. But I'm not competing against anyone in these goals. It's just ME. 

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I don't understand what the fun would be in armchair caching. This hobby to me is about going out and having an adventure. However, I will armchair quarterback during football season, and not very well either.

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54 minutes ago, hdbaggerdave said:

I don't understand what the fun would be in armchair caching. This hobby to me is about going out and having an adventure. However, I will armchair quarterback during football season, and not very well either.

The armchair geocacher may have been mistaken for the nature of the hobby and he may imagine that other players compete with him. He also may imagine that others are envious of his fake accomplishments. Or may be he is a passionate collector who can not resist the attraction of the points.:)

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15 hours ago, narcissa said:

That's the point. How can geocaching be competitive without others consenting to be part of the competition?

I can run down a busy sidewalk and yell at everyone that I've won, but that doesn't mean much if nobody else knew it was a race.

Yep, it takes two or more consenting people for it to be a competition. I believe that the competition we talk of here is in a person's mind. There are people that see other cacher's stats and think to themselves, i'm gonna beat that other cacher. I've heard too many people state/brag that they're about to catch up with or pass another cacher. I have no doubt that there are people striving to be top dog on the geocaching stat sites. There's something about find count that drives people, and some of those people do silly, sometimes unethical, things to get that find count.

Whether we call it competition or not, the fact that people do these silly things sometimes causes problems for others. In your example above,,, I agree that running down a busy sidewalk and yelling that you won, isn't a competition. Still, doing so in a haphazard manner can cause problems for others using the sidewalk. ;)

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On 8/12/2017 at 5:21 PM, TahoeJoe said:

I don't see many new hiking caches in my area anymore and I live in an area know for it's trails and outdoor activities. I took a break from geocaching for a number of years and when I returned I was surprised at the direction the game took. At first looking at the map of all the caches I thought I had enough caches to keep me busy for months but soon realized the majority were park and grab and poor excuses for what I thought a geocache should represent. 2 1/2 years ago I placed a new hiking cache out there that involved a moderate hike to an interesting local location stocked with goodies for the kids and I thought it would get plenty of visits. It was two months till the first visit and one visit after that. The game is what it is but I'm amused how geocaching is marketed as a treasure hunt when the majority of caches I see are leaky pill bottle with camo tape placed along side the road with little or no thought involved with the creation or placement of the cache. By no stretch of the imagination do I see this as modern day treasure hunting. When I think of geocaching treasure hunting, I think of the treasure as being the journey to the cache as well as where the cache is located and my overall experience from the cache. I'm one who likes a logbook in the cache that I read about others experiences and that I can record my own thoughts. I'm probably a relic from the early days but I don't see playing for the sake of numbers of finds as geocaching. 

 

On 8/12/2017 at 6:04 PM, cerberus1 said:

:)

We used to like to read those ... a lotta poems too,  and view the drawings that often accompanied that lengthy log. 

 - Those  people,  many who rarely or never logged online really made us look forward to maintenance.

We know now our log books will last a long time, unless damaged from neglect, as these days there's either a name/date on a single line, stamp, or sticker.

 - And it's rare to see any kind of wordy log on the online as well.    We're often told that change is supposed to be good...

 

I would actually really like to see more caches with lengthy log books. I'm extremely new to geocaching and all of the caches in my area have small logs in them (or just a piece of paper for the micros) that aren't really viable for writing little notes on. I've stopped by a few on my trips back and forth that were easy park/grabs just to get a good idea of what to expect and learn the game, but what I really have loved are the ones that take me on a hike through some beautiful forest or to an interesting historical area that I wouldn't have gone to otherwise (with a nice view is a bonus!). I made a day of it with my dad who was visiting and even he had a blast going through the areas, reading the history, and finding the caches to see who had last visited them. It would have been even more fun to see something extra creative inside of them which would have kept us in the area a little longer before hiking out. I should go back in my logs and write down more thoughts online for the particularly lengthy visits in retrospect, since I tend to log them right there on my phone so I don't forget.

Some of the park and grabs are pretty cleverly hidden, though, which I find impressive enough. If they take me to a nice park or area I'd like to visit again, or are cleverly hidden where I have to actually look a little and am impressed by after I don't mind that at all. I guess the experience of seeing beautiful places in an area I've lived my entire life for the first time is what feels nice to me, on top of the "treasure" hunt.

4 hours ago, arisoft said:

The armchair geocacher may have been mistaken for the nature of the hobby and he may imagine that other players compete with him. He also may imagine that others are envious of his fake accomplishments. Or may be he is a passionate collector who can not resist the attraction of the points.:)

With the rise of video games, many people are into things for the points and achievements collections solely. I wouldn't say that's negative unless they cheat of course, because then you can't even be proud of your own achievement. As for competition, I think some people like to see the high numbers and be seen on leader boards, even if there is no specific competition going on with anyone else. I don't see that as a problem at all, as long as they aren't bothering anyone else with that goal.

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5 minutes ago, mimaef said:

 

 

I would actually really like to see more caches with lengthy log books. I'm extremely new to geocaching and all of the caches in my area have small logs in them (or just a piece of paper for the micros) that aren't really viable for writing little notes on. I've stopped by a few on my trips back and forth that were easy park/grabs just to get a good idea of what to expect and learn the game, but what I really have loved are the ones that take me on a hike through some beautiful forest or to an interesting historical area that I wouldn't have gone to otherwise (with a nice view is a bonus!). I made a day of it with my dad who was visiting and even he had a blast going through the areas, reading the history, and finding the caches to see who had last visited them. It would have been even more fun to see something extra creative inside of them which would have kept us in the area a little longer before hiking out. I should go back in my logs and write down more thoughts online for the particularly lengthy visits in retrospect, since I tend to log them right there on my phone so I don't forget.

Some of the park and grabs are pretty cleverly hidden, though, which I find impressive enough. If they take me to a nice park or area I'd like to visit again, or are cleverly hidden where I have to actually look a little and am impressed by after I don't mind that at all. I guess the experience of seeing beautiful places in an area I've lived my entire life for the first time is what feels nice to me, on top of the "treasure" hunt.

With the rise of video games, many people are into things for the points and achievements collections solely. I wouldn't say that's negative unless they cheat of course, because then you can't even be proud of your own achievement. As for competition, I think some people like to see the high numbers and be seen on leader boards, even if there is no specific competition going on with anyone else. I don't see that as a problem at all, as long as they aren't bothering anyone else with that goal.

I think your right that video games have influenced the need for points and achievements and it's great hear about new players enjoying reading the logs.

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20 hours ago, dprovan said:

More to the point, it wasn't a race. You just imagined it was.

Oh, but my phone tracked how fast I ran. The fact that I have statistics means it was a race. Right?

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Posted (edited)

 

On 8/13/2017 at 1:21 AM, on4bam said:

I don't see it as a competition. We went on bike rides and went for walks/hike before geocaching and still do the same except that now where we're going is less random because we let "good" caches lead us.

Interestingly, people who see it as a competition would say you just don't care about the competition. People who don't see it as a competition are (typically) fine with living side by side with those who do if they keep the competition amongst themselves. :P

 

Quote

There are two classes of competitive games. In one class, like football or bridge, part of the game is actively preventing someone else from achieving their goals. In the other class, like golf and geocaching, you do your best, and you win when your best is better than your competitor's best. The thing about that second class is that there's no particular reason to identify a competitor, thus playing the game but eliminating the competition

Yeah. The latter may or may not be seen (by the player) as a competition; depends if they get competitive - with themselves or someone else. Sort of an opt-in competition and "losing" only exists in the eye of the "winner". But competition isn't required in participation. The former is unavoidably competitive as the intent of the setup (objectively) is always to not be a/the loser (meaning the intent of making someone else that).

 

On 8/14/2017 at 5:52 AM, narcissa said:

That's the point. How can geocaching be competitive without others consenting to be part of the competition?

I can run down a busy sidewalk and yell at everyone that I've won, but that doesn't mean much if nobody else knew it was a race.

I'm going to remember this analogy. Excellent.

 

11 hours ago, mimaef said:

With the rise of video games, many people are into things for the points and achievements collections solely. I wouldn't say that's negative unless they cheat of course, because then you can't even be proud of your own achievement. As for competition, I think some people like to see the high numbers and be seen on leader boards, even if there is no specific competition going on with anyone else. I don't see that as a problem at all, as long as they aren't bothering anyone else with that goal.

Yes, stats, achievements, badges, collecting digital swag, all are elements of a modern game/app centric culture that's growing up. "Everyone gets a trophy" would be prescriptive mentality that leads to this. But that mentality itself doesn't imply competition - but it does allow for it.

To expand the above analogy, that would be like someone at the corner giving the runner a ribbon, then offering the a ribbon to everyone else for reaching the corner. Some walkers may not be in it for the ribbon and may trash it later. Some may decline (or wish they could) the ribbon. Some may see the ribbon and divert to a different sidewalk. The only 'competitor' is the one who feels like bragging about getting their ribbon first (hopefully not by stepping on others' toes who may not even be competing). The best part is, to the non-competitors, if that person wants to cheer and wave their banner around jeering at all the walkers (non-competitors), that's just fine and dandy. It'd only be relevant to them if they were also competing (and lost). Otherwise it's just noise to ignore. 

Don't let the competitors get you down. If you get the ribbon and that was your goal, great. If you get the ribbon by besting your own time, great. If you get the ribbon by being first (of everyone, whether or not competing), great. If you don't want the ribbon for whatever reason, great. If you want to display your ribbon collection or keep it organized and stashed in your basement, great.  That's the flexibility we have in geocaching.  The community is only 'hurt', in a sense, by those who go out of their way to hurt the experience for others at their expense, for their own gain.  And that loss isn't hurtful because of "losing" against someone else; it's just about having a fun experience while not competing.

Edited by thebruce0
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Logging a cache from your couch isn't a wholely innocuous action. Not as much as being at the base of the tree your friend climbed to sign you both in, and logging it found. Or logging your after-midnight find on the prior date.
In the latter cases, your Find log correctly implies the cache is findable. In the former your Find log may well imply an incorrect status for the listing if it's not actually there or in bad shape (which you didn't confirm), deceiving both the CO and followup finders. -- Even though the latter case is technically allowable by the guidelines.

So, "people can play any way they want" is fine when how they play does not have an effect on other players. It's not a blanket excuse for a player to just do anything they want. The guidelines are there to help direct the activity towards actions that are beneficial for the most people, and if it seems their flexibility is being taken advantage of, they might get stricter, and when that happens it's typically at the expense of the innocent. Ethics are more like the personal decisions people make which aren't explicitly outlined in the guidelines, which I'd say are primarily about making the experience better for others.  Do you replace a full or wet log or not (and make it clear in the logs)? I would say that's more akin to an ethic.

It gets more difficult the more a decision is based on what "might" happen.  A lot of time my ethical decisions are based on past experience and what has happened which informs how likely I think something might happen in the future (like someone being upset, or thankful, or infer the wrong thing from a log). It's harder to defend ethical decisions based on what you think may happen based on your own feelings and opinion about the subject. Those are the ones that get lengthy forums debates. :)

Arguably, if you choose to do something that someone else doesn't like, but you can provide a good reason you truly believe is for the better of the community, I'd say that's a positive ethic (we can't and shouldn't cater to every hurt feeling).  Ethics are just a tough nut. One person's ethic is another person's cheat in these forums :P

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1 hour ago, SeattleWayne said:

According to this website, ( http://www.zinnware.com/HighAdv/Geocaching/most_caches_found.php) has the most finds with 147,128. He really has 173,233. So he's the true winner. :P

I'm very familiar with several on that list. And I can tell you which ones actually find caches --- and which ones never ever DNF a cache... Should change their name to "Pockets full of Film Cans" 

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How's that old saying go: ethics is how you behave when nobody's watching?

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45 minutes ago, Joshism said:

How's that old saying go: ethics is how you behave when nobody's watching?

Yup.  Also heard it re: integrity.

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2 hours ago, mvhayes1982 said:
4 hours ago, SeattleWayne said:

According to this website, ( http://www.zinnware.com/HighAdv/Geocaching/most_caches_found.php) has the most finds with 147,128. He really has 173,233. So he's the true winner. :P

I'm very familiar with several on that list. And I can tell you which ones actually find caches --- and which ones never ever DNF a cache... Should change their name to "Pockets full of Film Cans" 

I know Bobcam was near the top of the list (according to the site above, #3) and his find count rate *was* very high.  If I'm reading his profile correctly he hasn't found a cache since 2015.  There was a FB group that I briefly joined awhile back that I assumed was about advocating integrity and fair play but it seemed to be more about calling out some cachers near the top of that list that had armchair logged a lot of caches (over 8000) on a couple of PTs in France as part of a "team".  If one believes some of the claims that were made, a couple of them didn't even go to France but "the team" did so they logged over 8000 caches as found.

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If I understand this correctly, people will log caches that they have NEVER been to because they want to be competitive and have more finds that others?!  Those folks have completely LOST the purpose of Geocaching, which is too bad. But it doesn't change MY purpose of Geocaching. I still have Joy with each find!

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4 hours ago, Inmountains said:

If I understand this correctly, people will log caches that they have NEVER been to because they want to be competitive and have more finds that others?!  

I don't get that either ...

But if there ever is prizes,  boy will I be pissed !   :D

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 3:24 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

...If one believes some of the claims that were made, a couple of them didn't even go to France but "the team" did so they logged over 8000 caches as found.

First or second to find, we've seen a few hides placed with "team names" in the middle of the log somewhere, so I'd kinda believe it.

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And the wonderful friends I have made Geocaching have also brought me joy!

Edited by Inmountains
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