+wildchld97 Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/index.php/2-uncategorised/94-gear-cheer-geocaching Edited September 29, 2016 by wildchld97 Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. This is a Terms of Use issue, not a guidelines issue. It's not against any rules if either the cache owners or Groundspeak gave permission. If neither did, then there would be a problem. Edited September 29, 2016 by fizzymagic Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I'm the owner of one of the listed caches. It's been around for 13 years in its original container (and a very unique one, at that). I do worry for my cache, since the coordinates are broadcast "in the clear." I wouldn't have minded if all they did was link to the cache pages, since you need to have an account in order to view the coordinates and other details. So what should an affected cache owner do? 1. Let it slide. 2. Make the cache available to Premium Members Only. 3. Contact the organization myself. 4. Contact Geocaching HQ and let them take up the issue on behalf of all the affected cache owners. Quote Link to comment
+MartyBartfast Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 2. Make the cache available to Premium Members Only. I can't see that helping as anyone can get the co-ords from their flyer. I would think that someone, either you or GS, need to ask them just to remove the co-ords from that flyer and everything will be OK. Looks like a genuine mistake to me. Quote Link to comment
+Manville Possum Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/index.php/2-uncategorised/94-gear-cheer-geocaching I just see links to published geocaches on geocaching.com and navicache, no posted coordinates on a non-geocaching site. Quote Link to comment
+MartyBartfast Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/index.php/2-uncategorised/94-gear-cheer-geocaching I just see links to published geocaches on geocaching.com and navicache, no posted coordinates on a non-geocaching site. There's a large image part way down with the title "Ohio River Trail Council Gear & Cheer" which has the large Geocaching flag, and to the right of that a list of cache names, each with co-ords below. This one: http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/attachments/article/94/ORTC_Moon_Festival_Geocaching_Flyer.pdf Quote Link to comment
ohgood Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/index.php/2-uncategorised/94-gear-cheer-geocaching the rules and guidelines only apply to people that agree to them. the rest of the world did not agree to them, so are not bound by them. that's what is hilarious about rules and guidelines. ;-) EVERYTHING you do on the internet should be considered public, since it likely is ;-) the caches might get hit a few times after the flyer goes out, but then will go back to normal. no biggie. Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 Well, they are having an event on Oct 15 out at Moon Park at 10:30am. They are meeting at the Saturn Pavillion. Since I'm part of this online meetup group, I plan to attend and maybe politely explain why posting those coordinates was a bad idea. Maybe a little knowledge will go a long way. Maybe... Quote Link to comment
+Manville Possum Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 The Ohio River Trail Council posted the names and coordinates to many of the existing caches in one of our local parks. Is that a violation of some guidelines? If non members have this information, I'd be afraid of these caches getting muggled or compromised somehow. Here is the link. http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/index.php/2-uncategorised/94-gear-cheer-geocaching I just see links to published geocaches on geocaching.com and navicache, no posted coordinates on a non-geocaching site. There's a large image part way down with the title "Ohio River Trail Council Gear & Cheer" which has the large Geocaching flag, and to the right of that a list of cache names, each with co-ords below. This one: http://membership.ohiorivertrail.org/attachments/article/94/ORTC_Moon_Festival_Geocaching_Flyer.pdf Before coffee anything other than NAD83 looked like a phone number to me. Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 I also just placed a travel bug in the "Get some practice in" cache. https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC19X7Q_get-some-practice-in-1-home-run?guid=3a61bd06-4c79-46ba-aaed-13405e0ffea8 I'm not going to be happy if I have to revisit this cache before this event to rescue it before some non geocache thinks its a cute "trinket" for trade. The poor guy traveled too many miles for that. Lol Quote Link to comment
+cerberus1 Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I also just placed a travel bug in the "Get some practice in" cache. https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC19X7Q_get-some-practice-in-1-home-run?guid=3a61bd06-4c79-46ba-aaed-13405e0ffea8 I'm not going to be happy if I have to revisit this cache before this event to rescue it before some non geocache thinks its a cute "trinket" for trade. The poor guy traveled too many miles for that. Lol OT, did you really chop down vines and berry thickets to make it easier to access a cache belonging to another? Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 OT, did you really chop down vines and berry thickets to make it easier to access a cache belonging to another? LOL! The path to this cache was indeed overgrown with plants from hell! I felt like I was exploring the Amazon jungle. I only cleared enough to get through. Good luck for the next pour soul. Lol! Quote Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I'm the owner of one of the listed caches. It's been around for 13 years in its original container (and a very unique one, at that). I do worry for my cache, since the coordinates are broadcast "in the clear." I wouldn't have minded if all they did was link to the cache pages, since you need to have an account in order to view the coordinates and other details. So what should an affected cache owner do? 1. Let it slide. 2. Make the cache available to Premium Members Only. 3. Contact the organization myself. 4. Contact Geocaching HQ and let them take up the issue on behalf of all the affected cache owners. 1. I'm not sure very many people will be looking at that page in the first place so there may not be anything to worry about. But, since yours is an older cache that you're probably proud of, and with original container, i don't think i'd let it stand. Having the coordinates listed this way does make it easier for problems to arise. 2. Making it PM won't work since the coordinates are posted right there. 3. Contacting the organization would be my choice. I would be nice but i would make sure to point out my concerns. Having my cache listed might be fine but not with the coordinates showing. 4. Unless i thought it was against some TOS, i wouldn't contact gc.com. Quote Link to comment
+NanCycle Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I'm the owner of one of the listed caches. It's been around for 13 years in its original container (and a very unique one, at that). I do worry for my cache, since the coordinates are broadcast "in the clear." I wouldn't have minded if all they did was link to the cache pages, since you need to have an account in order to view the coordinates and other details. So what should an affected cache owner do? 1. Let it slide. 2. Make the cache available to Premium Members Only. 3. Contact the organization myself. 4. Contact Geocaching HQ and let them take up the issue on behalf of all the affected cache owners. 1. I'm not sure very many people will be looking at that page in the first place so there may not be anything to worry about. But, since yours is an older cache that you're probably proud of, and with original container, i don't think i'd let it stand. Having the coordinates listed this way does make it easier for problems to arise. 2. Making it PM won't work since the coordinates are posted right there. 3. Contacting the organization would be my choice. I would be nice but i would make sure to point out my concerns. Having my cache listed might be fine but not with the coordinates showing. 4. Unless i thought it was against some TOS, i wouldn't contact gc.com. Maybe I'm missing something here, Leprechaun, but I see your cache listed in the links to cache pages, but I don't see it in the list of caches where the coordinates are given. I count 16 caches in the "links" list and 13 in the "coordinates" list. Anyway, if it were my cache I'd remove it and disable it promptly. Then think about whether I could find another good place to rehide it. I'm sure your local reviewer would allow a move even if it was more than .1 mi. Quote Link to comment
+The A-Team Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 the rules and guidelines only apply to people that agree to them. the rest of the world did not agree to them, so are not bound by them. that's what is hilarious about rules and guidelines. ;-) Of course, for someone to get the coordinates, they had to create an account and agree to the Terms of Use. Therefore, somewhere along the line someone agreed to the ToU and then seemingly* violated them. As per the ToU (bolding is mine): C. License. Subject to your compliance with this Agreement, Groundspeak hereby grants you a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, fully revocable license to view and use our services for your own personal, non-commercial purposes in accordance with this Agreement and any guidelines or policies posted on our websites or applications. D. Restrictions. Permission to use our services is subject to the following restrictions. Whether these restrictions have been violated shall be determined in our sole discretion. You agree not to: ... iii.Use our services, including GPX files, for any purpose other than your personal use without our written permission. *I say this because we don't have any hard evidence that any ToU violation has occurred. It doesn't sound like the COs of the caches were consulted, but for all we know Groundspeak may have been. Quote Link to comment
+lee737 Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 If I had an old, precious cache there, I'd just disable and retrieve it for a month or two, then replace it. If it were a standard container, let it slide, and be prepared to check on it and maintain it shortly. I'd evacuate any trackables too.... Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 If I had an old, precious cache there, I'd just disable and retrieve it for a month or two, then replace it. If it were a standard container, let it slide, and be prepared to check on it and maintain it shortly. I'd evacuate any trackables too.... I will be going to their event, so I will unfortunately have to retrace my steps and retrieve the trackable and secure it so its not taken inadvertantly. dadgum, my legs and arms just healed from that mess. Lol Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) If I had an old, precious cache there, I'd just disable and retrieve it for a month or two, then replace it. That seems like the best plan for a historic or otherwise valuable cache. Of course, the best way to prevent this kind of thing is to hide puzzle caches. ETA: I misread the post when replying so I said stupid things that don't apply. Edited September 29, 2016 by fizzymagic Quote Link to comment
+Pine and Poplar Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Is the Ohio River Trail Council the land manager for where the caches are hidden or is it someone else? If they are the land manager they should be able to give out information about recreational activities available on the land they manage. Quote Link to comment
ohgood Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 the rules and guidelines only apply to people that agree to them. the rest of the world did not agree to them, so are not bound by them. that's what is hilarious about rules and guidelines. ;-) Of course, for someone to get the coordinates, they had to create an account and agree to the Terms of Use. Therefore, somewhere along the line someone agreed to the ToU and then seemingly* violated them. As per the ToU (bolding is mine): C. License. Subject to your compliance with this Agreement, Groundspeak hereby grants you a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, fully revocable license to view and use our services for your own personal, non-commercial purposes in accordance with this Agreement and any guidelines or policies posted on our websites or applications. D. Restrictions. Permission to use our services is subject to the following restrictions. Whether these restrictions have been violated shall be determined in our sole discretion. You agree not to: ... iii.Use our services, including GPX files, for any purpose other than your personal use without our written permission. *I say this because we don't have any hard evidence that any ToU violation has occurred. It doesn't sound like the COs of the caches were consulted, but for all we know Groundspeak may have been. ya, someone violated the rules, sometime, somewhere, to get the coordinates, but it really doesn't matter to the person with the flyer. apparently the rules meant nothing to the person who did it either. that's the point :-) Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Is the Ohio River Trail Council the land manager for where the caches are hidden or is it someone else? If they are the land manager they should be able to give out information about recreational activities available on the land they manage. No. They do not own or manage Moon Park. Lol Quote Link to comment
+hzoi Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 After all this hand-wringing, why is it that I am the first person to actually post to that page about this? Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 I figured I'd just wait and speak to the person face to face at his event. I just wanted to make sure that I was not making a big deal out of nothing by asking the geocaching community first though. Lol Better safe than sorry. Quote Link to comment
+MartyBartfast Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) After all this hand-wringing, why is it that I am the first person to actually post to that page about this? Looks like grounspeak (or someone impersonating them) followed your lead, and have also posted asking them to remove the co-ords. Edited September 30, 2016 by MartyBartfast Quote Link to comment
+narcissa Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Looks like grounspeak (or someone impersonating them) followed your lead, and have also posted asking them to remove the co-ords. Would Geocaching.com really use a Facebook comment to post a legal warning (with clumsy writing and poor spelling to boot)? Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) Looks like grounspeak (or someone impersonating them) followed your lead, and have also posted asking them to remove the co-ords. Would Geocaching.com really use a Facebook comment to post a legal warning (with clumsy writing and poor spelling to boot)? Link or it didn't happen. Oh, never mind. I see it. Had to turn on javascript. I would guess that gc.com will be considerably more upset by the idiot who impersonated them than by the TOS violation. Edited September 30, 2016 by fizzymagic Quote Link to comment
+narcissa Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Looks like grounspeak (or someone impersonating them) followed your lead, and have also posted asking them to remove the co-ords. Would Geocaching.com really use a Facebook comment to post a legal warning (with clumsy writing and poor spelling to boot)? Link or it didn't happen. Oh, never mind. I see it. Had to turn on javascript. I would guess that gc.com will be considerably more upset by the idiot who impersonated them than by the TOS violation. I don't see why I am the one receiving a demand for a link that was in the original post. Quote Link to comment
+eosxt Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 It's probably not that bad. How many muggles even know how to enter coordinates into a GPS? I'd guess 99% of muggling is a crime of opportunity rather than a complicated mission requiring knowledge, drive, a gps and disposable time Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) It's probably not that bad. How many muggles even know how to enter coordinates into a GPS? I'd guess 99% of muggling is a crime of opportunity rather than a complicated mission requiring knowledge, drive, a gps and disposable time If we assume that people don't know how to enter coords into a GPSr, there's little value in posting the coords. Remove them. Anyway, they're in a strange format, so that's bound to confuse many. Coords alone, especially if in a format different from an ordinary factory-set GPSr, are not good for responsible Geocaching. The coords provide no info about the cache, except location. For example, you won't know if the cache was archived, nor why. And I wouldn't want coords for my caches saved as an image on a web site. My cache might need a coordinate update. But not often, because my coords are always perfect. I'd say the Lepre's answer #4 is good, so if this case seems to be a problem, contact Groundspeak. They can deal with it. I'm guessing that info about a handful of caches, posted by an enthusiastic park employee, is not what the TOU addresses. That is, GS might not consider it a big deal (compared to scraping and posting many pages of info). But it would be best if just the links were there and not the actual coords. Edited October 1, 2016 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+jellis Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Did they fix it. I see only links and you have to log in to see them. Quote Link to comment
+gpsblake Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Protesting against it would be a good way to get all geocaches banned from the parks. Just let it go. I can see it now. Groundspeak: (with their lawyer), we understand you are posted coordinates of geocaches located in.... Non profit trail group: Okay, we will contact the public park officials and have your geocaches removed. Not smart to do. We all lose Quote Link to comment
+MartyBartfast Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Did they fix it. I see only links and you have to log in to see them. No they're still there, on the flyer, but the comments, including the one purporting to be from Groundpseak, seem to have gone (unless that is driven by some scripting that's blocked from my work PC). On the whole I think gpsblake hit the nail on the head. The impact of complaining about it is likely to be greater than the impact of just letting it go. Quote Link to comment
+Manville Possum Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Did they fix it. I see only links and you have to log in to see them. No they're still there, on the flyer, but the comments, including the one purporting to be from Groundpseak, seem to have gone (unless that is driven by some scripting that's blocked from my work PC). On the whole I think gpsblake hit the nail on the head. The impact of complaining about it is likely to be greater than the impact of just letting it go. I'm still seeing the posts and coordinates. Otherwise, we will take further disciplinary action against your account. Yep, wouldn't want to get in a squabble with the park system. Quote Link to comment
+fuzziebear3 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Different approach -- attend the event, and encourage your other geocaching buddies to do the same. Educate the newbies on geocaching -- rehiding, trading, trackables, etc. Thank the park system for their efforts, but gently mention to them that the flyers will go out of date, the coordinates might change, caches get archived ... so they shouldn't put them in the hard copy. Quote Link to comment
+lee737 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Different approach -- attend the event, and encourage your other geocaching buddies to do the same. Educate the newbies on geocaching -- rehiding, trading, trackables, etc. Thank the park system for their efforts, but gently mention to them that the flyers will go out of date, the coordinates might change, caches get archived ... so they shouldn't put them in the hard copy. Good idea.... Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Different approach -- attend the event, and encourage your other geocaching buddies to do the same. Educate the newbies on geocaching -- rehiding, trading, trackables, etc. Thank the park system for their efforts, but gently mention to them that the flyers will go out of date, the coordinates might change, caches get archived ... so they shouldn't put them in the hard copy. Quote Link to comment
+wildchld97 Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Well heloooo that is what I said I was going to do. I don't even own any of these caches and hey... No big. I will take one for the team and educate. Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.