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Pause on New Challenge Caches

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The issue, instead, is whether the negative consequences of challenge caches are sufficiently unique and significant that they justify denying them to those who enjoy them.

 

Actually, no. That is not true at all. That may be what the current conversation is, but the issue is the number of appeals to Groundspeak, and what changes Groundspeak will make to ease the burden on their reviewers.

 

Ah, so the reviewer load is not a negative consequence? Weird. I would have thought it was.

 

In fact, what I said is completely true. The unique negative consequence of challenge caches is their load on the reviewers. It is whether this can be fixed or not that will determine the future of challenge caches.

 

OK, I'll grant you that the reviewer load is a negative consequence. But somehow I suspect that it was not one of the negative consequences you had in mind when you wrote that.

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I was quite perturbed when I heard that Groundspeak has decided to yet again change something that really does not require changing. Challenge Caches are meant to be a CHALLENGE and if a cacher is not inspired to do the challenge, as is the same with a hard puzzle or a multiple stage multi or a cache high on a mountain peak, then they definitely have the opportunity and right NOT to accept the challenge and log the cache. Much of the joy I get out of Geocaching involves working towards a challenging goal. I find it much more satisfying to find caches and try to work towards something than just finding simple caches about town. Please, I beg, do NOT nerf the concept of challenge caches. Afterall, we are the customers playing your game and funding your company - shouldn't we be allowed to play as wide a ranging game as we want. Making Challenges more 'accessible' defeats the purpose of many of these challenges. If you want to change them to increase accessibility, then please change MEGA events as they are not accessible to most people including myself, or give everyone the answers to puzzle caches so they can find them without working at it. Of course I am being facetious, but I hope you can see my point. Let people play the game however they want. Yes, some people will complain, but the majority will appreciate the right to decide for themselves if they want to go for a certain cache or not. We do not need Big Brother to protect us from Challenges. They are what make us grow.

It might help you to hear, from a Community Volunteer Reviewer, that nothing in your post had anything to do with the moratorium on new challenge cache publications. Big Brother is not trying to protect challenge cache finders from challenge cache owners. Rather, Big Brother is trying to protect itself from challenge cache owners. (And not all challenge cache owners, I might add... just the envelope pushers that consume reviewer time until the problems are worked out, or until the reviewer gives up -- at which time they start to consume Appeals team time.)

 

Thanks, Keystone, for your reply. It puts it into a better focus. I had no idea reviewers were having such a hard time with these caches, perhaps because the COs in my area are so diligent. I guess when I heard on a few podcasts that this moritorium was in place, little information on WHY it was in place was given. This is perhaps my fault for not digging super deep, but is there a resource that GC posted giving this explanation? This would be very helpful to those of us who do not frequent this forum.

I'm glad you found that helpful. It may also help you to hear that, as a player, I enjoy challenge caches -- I own three, I've found nearly 50 across five states, and I was caught by surprise while planning a small series of challenge cache hides. I enjoy challenge caches as something to work towards -- I'm two caches short of qualifying for both Fizzy and Jasmer. There are many reviewers who also enjoy challenges, and others who don't. The point is, they're a burden for many when wearing our reviewer hats. As a player, I don't like hard math puzzles, but by and large, hard math puzzles don't chew up an hour or more of my volunteer time as a reviewer.

 

In terms of resources available, I can direct you to this Help Center article.

Edited by Keystone

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Ah, I see. So, those that disagree with you are the ones you are calling childish names. Got it.

 

No. I have no problem with disagreement, I'm simply taking advantage of the opportunity to poke some fun at a few people. Many of the arguments against challenge caches are nothing more than selfish opinions. Sort of a playground 'I want it my way' approach. It comes off as quite childish.

 

Sorry, but it is my perception that your posts about this have come of as childish, and I have been seeing you as coming across as one of the "I want it my way" folks. If that isn't true, I'm sorry... but perhaps you aren't wording your thoughts carefully enough then 'cause calling your fellow cachers "Poopy Diaper People" doesn't come across as mature. Just sayin'...

 

It's more of a joke than anything else. If I cared enough to elaborate (once again), I would've left out the labels. I've discussed my opinions on this on other threads.

I haven't made an effort to discuss my opinions about the challenge cache issue on this thread.

 

Not sure how I'm coming off as 'my way only', perhaps you could cite specific examples? As far as my childish posts *on this thread*... true enough, but when in Rome...

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As far as my childish posts *on this thread*... true enough, but when in Rome...

 

Yes, let's never rise above immaturity. Let's always aim to sink down to its level.

 

The one thing about this moratorium that, for me, put things into focus was thinking about some of the inane, silly, hopelessly complex challenge caches that already exist and then thinking...those are the ones that made it through. How many reviewer/lackey resources were used just to go toe to toe (so to speak) with a challenge cache owner who really wanted that cache published. How much verbal sparring went down trying to reach a compromise?

 

And then, how many challenge caches were denied publication that were even sillier or more complex than the ones we see on the map?

 

If challenge caches are once again allowed to be published, you can bet the farm they will very reviewer friendly.

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I suspect it is more than "stupid cache submissions". Because the challenge cache hiders continue to push the envelope on challenge caches, both the reviewers and HQ are constantly having to re-evaluate the limits they have put in place. Most of that burden, of course, would fall on the shoulders of the volunteer reviewers, who get to deal with sometimes angry and/or impatient wannabe challenge owners. Then, perhaps, it gets taken to HQ for review. That will still take more time from the reviewers who now have to pass on to HQ what his/her thoughts were and explain anything that isn't clear from the message history. It is a moving target... herding cats... nailing jello to a wall.

That's pretty much what I had in mind when I used the term "stupid challenge caches": challenge caches aiming at stressing the limits to the breaking point.

 

While I was down on the idea of having challenge caches reviewed through a different channel like EarthCaches, perhaps what might make more sense is a way for reviewers to approve challenge caches that raise no issues, but automatically boot challenge caches that the reviewers feel are questionable immediately to a central review committee that has experience with the limits and with dealing with combative COs. They wouldn't be needed for most challenges, but they'd be the experts we need to handle the exceptional cases.

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I suspect it is more than "stupid cache submissions". Because the challenge cache hiders continue to push the envelope on challenge caches, both the reviewers and HQ are constantly having to re-evaluate the limits they have put in place. Most of that burden, of course, would fall on the shoulders of the volunteer reviewers, who get to deal with sometimes angry and/or impatient wannabe challenge owners. Then, perhaps, it gets taken to HQ for review. That will still take more time from the reviewers who now have to pass on to HQ what his/her thoughts were and explain anything that isn't clear from the message history. It is a moving target... herding cats... nailing jello to a wall.

That's pretty much what I had in mind when I used the term "stupid challenge caches": challenge caches aiming at stressing the limits to the breaking point.

 

While I was down on the idea of having challenge caches reviewed through a different channel like EarthCaches, perhaps what might make more sense is a way for reviewers to approve challenge caches that raise no issues, but automatically boot challenge caches that the reviewers feel are questionable immediately to a central review committee that has experience with the limits and with dealing with combative COs. They wouldn't be needed for most challenges, but they'd be the experts we need to handle the exceptional cases.

 

Actually I like your idea, if challenge cache submissions are so rare but create so many problems have a global challenge cache reviewer that can make consistant and unbiased descisions. If there is only one reviewer his/her descisions can be more easily accepted and result in less problems for the overworked staff at HQ.

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I suspect it is more than "stupid cache submissions". Because the challenge cache hiders continue to push the envelope on challenge caches, both the reviewers and HQ are constantly having to re-evaluate the limits they have put in place. Most of that burden, of course, would fall on the shoulders of the volunteer reviewers, who get to deal with sometimes angry and/or impatient wannabe challenge owners. Then, perhaps, it gets taken to HQ for review. That will still take more time from the reviewers who now have to pass on to HQ what his/her thoughts were and explain anything that isn't clear from the message history. It is a moving target... herding cats... nailing jello to a wall.

That's pretty much what I had in mind when I used the term "stupid challenge caches": challenge caches aiming at stressing the limits to the breaking point.

 

While I was down on the idea of having challenge caches reviewed through a different channel like EarthCaches, perhaps what might make more sense is a way for reviewers to approve challenge caches that raise no issues, but automatically boot challenge caches that the reviewers feel are questionable immediately to a central review committee that has experience with the limits and with dealing with combative COs. They wouldn't be needed for most challenges, but they'd be the experts we need to handle the exceptional cases.

 

Actually I like your idea, if challenge cache submissions are so rare but create so many problems have a global challenge cache reviewer that can make consistant and unbiased descisions. If there is only one reviewer his/her descisions can be more easily accepted and result in less problems for the overworked staff at HQ.

 

It sounds like this one person position would make for one *very* busy reviewer.

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If there is only one reviewer his/her descisions can be more easily accepted and result in less problems for the overworked staff at HQ.

 

Until someone makes the claim that THE ONE has a personal grudge against them, or is in some way biased, or lacking in requisite local knowledge, or ill qualified or...

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Thanks for this accurate summary. It is the challenge cache hiders who are principally responsible for the moratorium, NOT people who hate on challenge caches. We need a better process for defining how this type of cache will work. It is the 2015 version of the virtual cache dilemma of ten years ago.

 

I have made several posts about this. Hopefully they'll believe your summary, narcissa.

 

For those of us who enjoy the challenge caches, this is not particularly encouraging, given what happened with virtuals. I will hope for a better result this time around.

 

So do I, but consider what would happen if the moratorium becomes permanent. They have eliminated any existing challenge caches and I suspect that the number challenge caches already out there far exceed the number of virtual and webcam caches put together and despite dwindling numbers people are still enjoying virtuals 10 years after they were banned and grandfathered.

 

 

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Ah, I see. So, those that disagree with you are the ones you are calling childish names. Got it.

 

No. I have no problem with disagreement, I'm simply taking advantage of the opportunity to poke some fun at a few people. Many of the arguments against challenge caches are nothing more than selfish opinions. Sort of a playground 'I want it my way' approach. It comes off as quite childish.

 

Sorry, but it is my perception that your posts about this have come of as childish, and I have been seeing you as coming across as one of the "I want it my way" folks. If that isn't true, I'm sorry... but perhaps you aren't wording your thoughts carefully enough then 'cause calling your fellow cachers "Poopy Diaper People" doesn't come across as mature. Just sayin'...

 

It's more of a joke than anything else. If I cared enough to elaborate (once again), I would've left out the labels. I've discussed my opinions on this on other threads.

I haven't made an effort to discuss my opinions about the challenge cache issue on this thread.

 

Not sure how I'm coming off as 'my way only', perhaps you could cite specific examples? As far as my childish posts *on this thread*... true enough, but when in Rome...

 

... act as Roman!

 

?:lol:

 

And no, I'm not about to start citing examples to "prove" my point. That would be even more off-topic and get us nowhere, I made my point, you can take it or leave it.

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If there is only one reviewer his/her descisions can be more easily accepted and result in less problems for the overworked staff at HQ.

 

Until someone makes the claim that THE ONE has a personal grudge against them, or is in some way biased, or lacking in requisite local knowledge, or ill qualified or...

 

In that case, they could always take it up with appeals. :laughing:

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Ah, I see. So, those that disagree with you are the ones you are calling childish names. Got it.

 

No. I have no problem with disagreement, I'm simply taking advantage of the opportunity to poke some fun at a few people. Many of the arguments against challenge caches are nothing more than selfish opinions. Sort of a playground 'I want it my way' approach. It comes off as quite childish.

 

Sorry, but it is my perception that your posts about this have come of as childish, and I have been seeing you as coming across as one of the "I want it my way" folks. If that isn't true, I'm sorry... but perhaps you aren't wording your thoughts carefully enough then 'cause calling your fellow cachers "Poopy Diaper People" doesn't come across as mature. Just sayin'...

 

It's more of a joke than anything else. If I cared enough to elaborate (once again), I would've left out the labels. I've discussed my opinions on this on other threads.

I haven't made an effort to discuss my opinions about the challenge cache issue on this thread.

 

Not sure how I'm coming off as 'my way only', perhaps you could cite specific examples? As far as my childish posts *on this thread*... true enough, but when in Rome...

 

... act as Roman!

 

?:lol:

 

And no, I'm not about to start citing examples to "prove" my point. That would be even more off-topic and get us nowhere, I made my point, you can take it or leave it.

 

For the sake of whatever discussion you guys are having I'll let you off the hook this time.

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Ah, I see. So, those that disagree with you are the ones you are calling childish names. Got it.

 

No. I have no problem with disagreement, I'm simply taking advantage of the opportunity to poke some fun at a few people. Many of the arguments against challenge caches are nothing more than selfish opinions. Sort of a playground 'I want it my way' approach. It comes off as quite childish.

 

Sorry, but it is my perception that your posts about this have come of as childish, and I have been seeing you as coming across as one of the "I want it my way" folks. If that isn't true, I'm sorry... but perhaps you aren't wording your thoughts carefully enough then 'cause calling your fellow cachers "Poopy Diaper People" doesn't come across as mature. Just sayin'...

 

It's more of a joke than anything else. If I cared enough to elaborate (once again), I would've left out the labels. I've discussed my opinions on this on other threads.

I haven't made an effort to discuss my opinions about the challenge cache issue on this thread.

 

Not sure how I'm coming off as 'my way only', perhaps you could cite specific examples? As far as my childish posts *on this thread*... true enough, but when in Rome...

 

... act as Roman!

 

?:lol:

 

Maybe that's childish,too, but it's funny! :lol:

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

Maybe that's the model for the future that GS is trying out.

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In response to the questions about challenge caches:

 

1. What do you like most about challenge caches? -- Challenge Caches create targets to strive for - giving new adventures - many requiring planning and sometimes years of effort to achieve - the Fizzy and Delorme challenges are the gold standard - classic challenges. The Challenge Caches inspire me to go beyond my everyday caches and try something different and frequently making the geocaching game more enjoyable for me. Without challenges, I probably would have not continued to cache nearly as much - and I certainly would not have seen as many different places as I have enjoyed visiting. Climbing mountains, kayaking, etc. would have never happened for me without challenge caches.

 

2. What do you not like about challenge caches? -- I do not like challenge caches that I do not qualify for - LOL - and then I look at them again a while later and see a faint possibility that someday I may just get there - so the planning begins...

 

3. What would you like to see changed about challenge caches? -- I would like to see the challenge caches have a checker built into the cache page - similar to the Geocheckers on Puzzle caches. I would propose to take it a step further - some will say too far but hear me out - but to have the cache page not allow a Find on the cache until the Challenge Checker passes for the cacher. The excellent Project-GC site has built a great Challenge Checker for many challenges. By making the Challenge Checker mandatory for challenges, there would be no disputing whether someone qualifies for a cache or not. It would also eliminate any dispute as to what the challenge really means. A side benefit of the Challenge Checkers is that only challenges that can be defined within the Challenge checker framework can be created - if you cannot create a checker then the challenge cannot be published. This eliminates most if not all of the disputes surrounding challenge caches.

 

4. If you could describe your favorite challenge cache type, what would it be? -- I really love challenge caches - My favorite Challenge Caches are the 366 day streak, Fizzy - 81 D/T challenge, every county in a state challenges, Delorme challenge, Busy Day Challenges (number of different D/T in a day), Word challenges (cache name and/or cacher name), Radius challenge (find all caches within a 5 mile radius of your home), The 300 Challenge (GC4150C), Resuscitation Challenge (GC38WBY). All of these require your to work towards a goal - and all have specific and measurable objectives - and probably could be easily set up in a Challenge Checker.

 

5. What types of challenge caches do you avoid? -- I only avoid those I do not qualify for - yet. I love the "Unknown" category of caches - still have about 1/3 of my finds in that category. I would love to see challenges left in the Unknown category - but split in statistics to show Mystery Puzzles, Challenge caches, Field Puzzles, Beacon Caches, Bonus Caches, and Night Caches - similar to how Events are shown in statistics with CITOs split out.

 

I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Cache On,

VPDJ

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I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.

 

You're asking them to pave it.

 

But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.

 

Think of it: some solutions for challenge caches, including virtualization, would mean those who like them would still be able to qualify for them and get awards/recognition (e.g. "a find"), but at least it would not annoy those that don't want to play a sidegame having to "qualify" to log a physical cache.

 

Of course, the authorities can always choose to close the road if no one can come up with a comprise...

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I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Again, as noted repeatedly in this thread, the moratorium is not a response to people not liking challenge caches.

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I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Again, as noted repeatedly in this thread, the moratorium is not a response to people not liking challenge caches.

 

I don't know if GS will take the time/effort to put some thoughts around other concerns about challenge caches apart from the main topic which is the burden from challenge cache COs on reviewers/GS.

 

I sure hope they do, but in any case, I'm pretty certain one of the easy solutions to cut the crap is to have all challenge caches owned/operated/managed by GS. Of course, if that happens, there's no way they would remain physical unless they come up with some kind of a system for cache maintenance by local enthusiasts. I doubt.

 

This could also mean to make them easily verifiable, the type of challenges would be rationalized. Why not automate the qualification factor based on the user's statistics? Then what's the difference between a challenge cache and a souvenir?

 

I wouldn't care less, but I'm sure a lot of people would not be happy about that. So better stop the "if you don't like them, ignore them" or "don't touch at my challenge caches" comments and start thinking about constructive criticism.

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I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Again, as noted repeatedly in this thread, the moratorium is not a response to people not liking challenge caches.

+1 (My bolded.)

 

I'd really like the "reason" to be placed in the beginning of the User Insights thread (though halfway through now...) so cachers aren't chiding others over something they've heard, only to find later their "advice" was on a mistaken idea they had .

Edited by cerberus1

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

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Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.

 

You're asking them to pave it.

 

But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.

I don't understand the analogy. What does your pool represent, and what does the dust getting into it represent? From my point of view, the better analogy would be a hiking trail up a mountain. You want to drive your car to the top, so you demand that the trail be paved. When people object, you call for the hiking trail to be closed to everyone.

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

 

What? They are souvenirs, not challenge caches. This is the third summer in a row that they have offered special souvenirs. There is no moratorium on souvenirs.

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

 

What? They are souvenirs, not challenge caches. This is the third summer in a row that they have offered special souvenirs. There is no moratorium on souvenirs.

 

But in order to get the souvenir you have to complete the challenge. Instead of a smiley you get a piece of digital art.

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I agree with what others have said - if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have our fun.

 

Again, as noted repeatedly in this thread, the moratorium is not a response to people not liking challenge caches.

+1 (My bolded.)

 

I'd really like the "reason" to be placed in the beginning of the User Insights thread (though halfway through now...) so cachers aren't chiding others over something they've heard, only to find later their "advice" was on a mistaken idea they had .

 

Maybe vpdj is responding to the numerous posts in this thread (especially early on) that were posted to somehow demonstrate their particular dislike for challenge caches? (such as the power trail pictures, etc.) Those posts (and their personal opinion/hatred for challenge caches) also don't demonstrate the reason why this moratorium is in effect...

Edited by Uncle Alaska

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

 

What? They are souvenirs, not challenge caches. This is the third summer in a row that they have offered special souvenirs. There is no moratorium on souvenirs.

 

But in order to get the souvenir you have to complete the challenge. Instead of a smiley you get a piece of digital art.

 

So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

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Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.

 

You're asking them to pave it.

 

But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.

I don't understand the analogy. What does your pool represent, and what does the dust getting into it represent? From my point of view, the better analogy would be a hiking trail up a mountain. You want to drive your car to the top, so you demand that the trail be paved. When people object, you call for the hiking trail to be closed to everyone.

 

I'm not going to try an come up with an analogy but the point of cron's analogy is that ignoring something isn't always a viable solution, yet it's typically suggested as a solution by someone that isn't bothered by that something. Ignoring challenge caches does nothing to reduce the workload of reviewers that are excessively burdened by the submission of challenge caches by people that are pushing the envelope.

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I think the Summer Road Trip is not about challenges; it is a collection of caches that encourage players to use the new search engine to find caches that fit those parameters.

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

 

What? They are souvenirs, not challenge caches. This is the third summer in a row that they have offered special souvenirs. There is no moratorium on souvenirs.

 

But in order to get the souvenir you have to complete the challenge. Instead of a smiley you get a piece of digital art.

 

So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

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I think the Summer Road Trip is not about challenges; it is a collection of caches that encourage players to use the new search engine to find caches that fit those parameters.

 

Isn't that how many challenge requirements are accomplished...by using a search to find qualifying caches?

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

 

We like challenges but were really surprised to see Groundspeak put one out since there is a moratorium on them! Not a complaint just an observation also.

 

What? They are souvenirs, not challenge caches. This is the third summer in a row that they have offered special souvenirs. There is no moratorium on souvenirs.

 

But in order to get the souvenir you have to complete the challenge. Instead of a smiley you get a piece of digital art.

 

So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

 

And there have been several moratoriums on souvenirs for visiting places. We're having one now.

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I think the Summer Road Trip is not about challenges; it is a collection of caches that encourage players to use the new search engine to find caches that fit those parameters.

 

Isn't that how many challenge requirements are accomplished...by using a search to find qualifying caches?

 

You also need to search for challenge caches as well as qualifying caches to complete the challenge, and for that the 30mi limit is woefully inadequate. A search from my home location of caches with Challenge in the title, are mystery caches, and that I have not found shows me 1 result.

 

 

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I'm not going to try an come up with an analogy but the point of cron's analogy is that ignoring something isn't always a viable solution, yet it's typically suggested as a solution by someone that isn't bothered by that something. Ignoring challenge caches does nothing to reduce the workload of reviewers that are excessively burdened by the submission of challenge caches by people that are pushing the envelope.

So you think the dust is reviewer overhead, but what's the pool?

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So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

 

If that's not what they're for, why is Groundspeak offering them for the third summer in a row?

 

Call me crazy, but I think Groundspeak knows what souvenirs are for.

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Not a commentary, just an observation: Seems to me that the "Summer Road Trip" IS a group of challenges. Instead of getting another mystery cache for completion, you receive a souvenir for completing each challenge.

Maybe that's the model for the future that GS is trying out.

I like it to a point, but I am afraid it will get too commercial overtime.

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souvenir challenge will kill off the popularity of 'challenge caches'. They will be no more. Souvenir challenges will be a brand new thing that will appeal to different people, and "challenge caching" (both finding and placing) will fall by the wayside just as with Virtuals.

 

I'm not against auto-awarded accomplishment souvenirs based on stats, but not at the expense of challenge caches. I wouldn't support that as a solution.

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Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.

 

You're asking them to pave it.

 

But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.

I don't understand the analogy. What does your pool represent, and what does the dust getting into it represent? From my point of view, the better analogy would be a hiking trail up a mountain. You want to drive your car to the top, so you demand that the trail be paved. When people object, you call for the hiking trail to be closed to everyone.

 

The dust is effecting some people's "pool" of cache hides. One among many negative "dusty" effects, people are treating good quality caches, especially non-traditionals, like all that matters is they are useful for qualifying for a challenge cache - mass hunting for dozens in a day and sharing final coordinates to make the process quick and easy.

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Somebody decides to open a road in the park besides your pool because it's a good shortcut. More people start to use it. Unfortunately, it's a dirt trail and dust keep going into your pool.

 

You're asking them to pave it.

 

But their answer is that if you don't want to use it, you just have to ignore it.

I don't understand the analogy. What does your pool represent, and what does the dust getting into it represent? From my point of view, the better analogy would be a hiking trail up a mountain. You want to drive your car to the top, so you demand that the trail be paved. When people object, you call for the hiking trail to be closed to everyone.

 

The dust is effecting some people's "pool" of cache hides. One among many negative "dusty" effects, people are treating good quality caches, especially non-traditionals, like all that matters is they are useful for qualifying for a challenge cache - mass hunting for dozens in a day and sharing final coordinates to make the process quick and easy.

 

Except GS does not care about the dust in your pool, if they did then they'd archive all existing challenges, they're concerned about too much work for the inspectors that have to inspect the dirt roads.

 

As for mass hunting , like thats going to go away, its not about challenges, its about find count.

 

I don't even know how a challenge can create mass hunting, the xxx finds in a day are accomplished on PTs by most and they only need to do it once, most other challenges require caches spread out over distances.

Edited by Roman!

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The dust is effecting some people's "pool" of cache hides. One among many negative "dusty" effects, people are treating good quality caches, especially non-traditionals, like all that matters is they are useful for qualifying for a challenge cache - mass hunting for dozens in a day and sharing final coordinates to make the process quick and easy.

You're blaming that on challenge caches? Seems like a stretch. People intently doing many caches by cutting corners aren't going to waste time working towards specific challenge caches. The only challenge caches they care about are the ones they already qualify for.

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. People intently doing many caches by cutting corners aren't going to waste time working towards specific challenge caches. The only challenge caches they care about are the ones they already qualify for.

 

I do not agree. Just one example: There are certainly cachers that for example work on a x cache types per day challenge and only write mass log on such days and attend events just for 2 minutes to rush to the next cache/cache type.

However challenge caches are not the only motivation for that behaviour. The existing badge systems have the same effect and also in areas where no appropriate challenge caches exist.

Edited by cezanne

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So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

 

If that's not what they're for, why is Groundspeak offering them for the third summer in a row?

 

Call me crazy, but I think Groundspeak knows what souvenirs are for.

 

But the question is does Groundspeak know what geocachers want souvenirs to be for.

Edited by NYPaddleCacher

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So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

 

If that's not what they're for, why is Groundspeak offering them for the third summer in a row?

 

Call me crazy, but I think Groundspeak knows what souvenirs are for.

 

But the question is does Groundspeak know what geocachers want souvenirs to be for.

 

Yeah, souvenirs used to be for places you visited, then events you attended or special days you cached on, then specific caches you found. But it's their thing, so they can make it what they want. Actually, they may have started a trend of "challenge" souvenirs because of the popularity of challenge caches. That doesn't mean the challenge caches would become souvenirs. These are probably two different things (at the moment).

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So what you're saying is that there should be a moratorium on souvenirs too?

 

Yeah, they started out for visiting places, they are not for going to events or accomplishing a challenge.

 

If that's not what they're for, why is Groundspeak offering them for the third summer in a row?

 

Call me crazy, but I think Groundspeak knows what souvenirs are for.

 

But the question is does Groundspeak know what geocachers want souvenirs to be for.

 

Good luck getting consensus on that.

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Actually, they may have started a trend of "challenge" souvenirs because of the popularity of challenge caches. That doesn't mean the challenge caches would become souvenirs.

 

In any case the ideas behind the souvenirs give a nice insight how worldwide challenge caches without actual containers hidden somewhere and thus turning them into something regional

would look like.

 

Tasks like finding a cache with 10 favourites is absolutely ridiculous in most European countries. There are challenge caches in Germany that require for example having found 10 caches in Germany that together have

more than 27000 (no typo) FPs. Of course such challenge caches would not make sense in the US and also not in Austria.

 

A challenge that requires 1000 multis is perfectly reasonable in my country and is not reasonable in the US.

 

There is a local challenge that requires one find in each of the 13 counties of my home state (Styria) of which at least 11 have to be multis.

What I enjoy the most with that challenge is reading the logs of the local cachers and see with which caches they qualify.

 

I'm not at all interested how many cachers worldwide have found caches in all counties of a state.

 

Virtual/locationless implementations will not be localized and will not allow the same enjoyment of reading logs.

 

A local lonely cache challenge is intended to increase the attractivity of lonely caches in that specific area. Awarding those who find lonely caches worldwide

is not the key aspect in my opinion and that's why award systems will not achieve the same goals as challenge caches right now.

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Actually, they may have started a trend of "challenge" souvenirs because of the popularity of challenge caches. That doesn't mean the challenge caches would become souvenirs.

 

In any case the ideas behind the souvenirs give a nice insight how worldwide challenge caches without actual containers hidden somewhere and thus turning them into something regional

would look like.

 

Tasks like finding a cache with 10 favourites is absolutely ridiculous in most European countries. There are challenge caches in Germany that require for example having found 10 caches in Germany that together have

more than 27000 (no typo) FPs. Of course such challenge caches would not make sense in the US and also not in Austria.

 

A challenge that requires 1000 multis is perfectly reasonable in my country and is not reasonable in the US.

 

There is a local challenge that requires one find in each of the 13 counties of my home state (Styria) of which at least 11 have to be multis.

What I enjoy the most with that challenge is reading the logs of the local cachers and see with which caches they qualify.

 

I'm not at all interested how many cachers worldwide have found caches in all counties of a state.

 

Virtual/locationless implementations will not be localized and will not allow the same enjoyment of reading logs.

 

A local lonely cache challenge is intended to increase the attractivity of lonely caches in that specific area. Awarding those who find lonely caches worldwide

is not the key aspect in my opinion and that's why award systems will not achieve the same goals as challenge caches right now.

 

You, him, her, me. As you can see, no one agrees on what makes a good or bad challenge because everyone has its preferences. This is probably part of the issue for GS as people will try to create challenges based on their own interests (there's no stop to human creativity). My bet is many challenge types will not be authorized by GS in the future (like lonely caches).

 

It's easy to understand their own challenge on regulating challenge caches. When you think about it, the only challenges that should be acceptable worldwide would be those based on hard statistics from geocaching.com (difficulty/terrain ratings, date placed, number of caches, etc.). Incidentally, these would be easily verifiable with an automatic tool on the official website. They could do something with "number of countries" (this would be acceptable to a worldwide audience), but anything that has to do with provinces, states, counties and whatever it's named in other places of the world would need to have their equivalent. This could be a daunting task, unless they privilege some countries first.

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You, him, her, me. As you can see, no one agrees on what makes a good or bad challenge because everyone has its preferences.

 

Of course there are individual preferences. Not everyone living in Vienna has the same geocaching preferences, and the same is true for San Franciso. However, the geocaching communities in Vienna, San Franciso and say in Rio de Janeiro are

very different from each other.

 

Challenges are something that has its strength only at the local level - at the global level it gets boring and does not have to offer anything in addition to badge systems which also do not have associated logs (one of the nicest aspects of challenge caches in my opinion)

 

Groundspeak will probably come up with such a system because it can be automated but the outcome will not be something attractive to most fans of challenge caches.

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With regards to the souvenirs that are being discussed, I don't think they are a replacement for challenges. The only reason I pay attention to them is because there are challenge caches out there that require a certain number of souvenirs. Otherwise, I would likely ignore them and get them by accident when I happened to meet some criteria. I can say the same for favorite points as well. I never look at them unless I need to find caches that have certain numbers of favorite points to get the challenge cache.

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There is a local challenge that requires one find in each of the 13 counties of my home state (Styria) of which at least 11 have to be multis.

What I enjoy the most with that challenge is reading the logs of the local cachers and see with which caches they qualify.

 

I'm not at all interested how many cachers worldwide have found caches in all counties of a state.

 

Virtual/locationless implementations will not be localized and will not allow the same enjoyment of reading logs.

 

A local lonely cache challenge is intended to increase the attractivity of lonely caches in that specific area. Awarding those who find lonely caches worldwide

is not the key aspect in my opinion and that's why award systems will not achieve the same goals as challenge caches right now.

 

A virtual/locationless implementation does not exist (at least not at Groundspeak) so how can you say that it will not be localized.

 

The primary difference between a virtual/locationless challenge cache and the way they're implemented now is that for a virtual/locationless challenge cache there isn't an *additional* cache to be found. If, for example, the local challenge which requires one to find one cache in each of the 13 counties in your home state was a locationless challenge rather than how it's currently implemented, how would that change the logs on the cache from those that listed their qualifying caches? Since the qualifying caches are local, it would still be localized even if the challenge "cache" was locationless.

If a locationless cache was created with the criteria to find a cache in each of the 62 counties in the State of New York, all of the qualifying caches would be in New York.

A local lonely cache in your area would increase interest in lonely caches in your area. If there were only one, locationless lonely cache challenge n the world, those that live in your area would seek lonely caches in your area to qualify. Those that live in my area would seek lonely caches in my area. From what I could tell with a couple of searches there are no challenge caches at all in Brazil, but there are dozens that have never been found or haven't been found in a long time. A lonely cache challenge, as a locationless challenge cache could increase interest in lonely caches in Brazil and actually allow geocacher that live in Brazil the opportunity to play the challenge cache game.

 

 

 

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A virtual/locationless implementation does not exist (at least not at Groundspeak) so how can you say that it will not be localized.

 

Because I do not think that Groundspeak is willing and able to come up with challenges that make sense for various regions, but not for the majority of countries.

They lack the competence about what is an interesting challenge in region X and if they involve the local reviewers we are back at what we have now.

 

What they could do is comeup with some standard challenges like Fizzy, day grid filled etc but that's what I regard as the boring part.

 

If there were only one, locationless lonely cache challenge n the world, those that live in your area would seek lonely caches in your area to qualify.

 

And everyone would have to read all logs and not only the ones of the local cachers.

Moreover, and that's essential in some areas one can easily require e.g. 100 lonely caches - in others 10 might be a challenge etc.

To explain it I used the example with the favourite points. Requiring >27000 FPs for the topmost 10 caches found, is something that

can be reasonably required in Germany, but not in the US.

 

and actually allow geocacher that live in Brazil the opportunity to play the challenge cache game.

 

I would not call the outcome challenge cache game - it's something different.

It's about achievements and not any longer a cache.

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