+PISA-caching Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 3 hours ago, BK-Hunters said: I think that's pretty close. Off the top of my head I can't materially improve on it, except grammatically: Displays that are used primarily by workers, custodians, managers or other staff to monitor operational parameters, with only incidental provision of public information , will not be accepted. Something like that. Keith Not something like that, but exactly that. Perfect. I will include that in the category description. 3 hours ago, elyob said: I am liking the category description so far. Quotations must be in quotation marks...or italics? Thanks for the praise and the suggestion. Will include that also. Quote Link to comment
+pmaupin Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The description of the category seems to me quite correct, it is clear and precise. 1 Quote Link to comment
+Alfouine Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 I just have a problem with this sentence "The main focus of the category is on displays that are able to present the development of interesting numerical data" How to define what is interesting ? it's not really objective. I think this paragraph could be enough "However, not all counting/measuring displays will be accepted. It will be up to the officers to decide, on a case-by-case basis." Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Alfouine said: I just have a problem with this sentence "The main focus of the category is on displays that are able to present the development of interesting numerical data" How to define what is interesting ? it's not really objective. I think this paragraph could be enough "However, not all counting/measuring displays will be accepted. It will be up to the officers to decide, on a case-by-case basis." The main focus of the category is on displays which present the development of interesting numerical data, rather than data with little variation over an extended period. It will be up to the officers to decide, on a case-by-case basis, whether the numbers are sufficiently interesting and/or sufficiently variable for acceptance. The first sentence succinctly describes the intent of the category. The second sentence continues the train of thought of the first, offering new information. No, it's not objective, in that it's calling for a subjective evaluation. You'll have to take it up with the category leader as to whether he chooses to have the officers making subjective decisions on acceptability. At present, though, I see no way around it, short of making the category description much longer and much more descriptive AND possibly requiring officers to do calculations in order to make a Yes/NO decision. No new category writer seems able to anticipate each and every eventuality. Take my word on that. My most recent category encountered troubled waters on its first day, requiring a bit of sorting out. It comes with the territory. Keith Edited August 22, 2019 by BK-Hunters Quote Link to comment
+Max and 99 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Alfouine said: I just have a problem with this sentence "The main focus of the category is on displays that are able to present the development of interesting numerical data" How to define what is interesting ? it's not really objective. I think this paragraph could be enough "However, not all counting/measuring displays will be accepted. It will be up to the officers to decide, on a case-by-case basis." Too subjective. Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Max and 99 said: Too subjective. I don't disagree. As a rule, when a category has relied on subjective decisions by officers it has run into stormy seas. Item A is accepted, then a nearly identical B is rejected, resulting in a kerfuffle, either privately, between officers and submitters, among officers or on the forum. Going in without clear and concise guidelines requiring no interpretation by either party involved in the submission process is never a good idea. I don't yet see a simple solution here, but that's certainly not to say that one doesn't exist. I'll work on it, though. Any ideas from the field? Keith Edited August 23, 2019 by BK-Hunters Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 One problem encountered by many writers of new categories is that it is essentially impossible to know, or even to anticipate, the nature of every item that will be submitted. As a result, it's nearly impossible to write a comprehensive category description that will cover each and every eventuality. That's simply the nature of the beast. Category writers must either find a way to deal with it, update the category each time such a challenge rears its ugly head, or give up and move on. We'll have to wait for input from Andreas on how he chooses to handle this, if at all, or even if he considers it a problem worth dealing with. Keith Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 I like the idea of the website variable. Website addresses soon become stale. Can we suggest including some of the website's content in the description? Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, BK-Hunters said: One problem encountered by many writers of new categories is that it is essentially impossible to know, or even to anticipate, the nature of every item that will be submitted. As a result, it's nearly impossible to write a comprehensive category description that will cover each and every eventuality. That's simply the nature of the beast. Category writers must either find a way to deal with it, update the category each time such a challenge rears its ugly head, or give up and move on. We'll have to wait for input from Andreas on how he chooses to handle this, if at all, or even if he considers it a problem worth dealing with. Keith Yes, this is another part of my description that I wasn't really happy with. But fortunately, you had a very good suggestion: 10 hours ago, BK-Hunters said: The main focus of the category is on displays which present the development of interesting numerical data, rather than data with little variation over an extended period. It will be up to the officers to decide, on a case-by-case basis, whether the numbers are sufficiently interesting and/or sufficiently variable for acceptance. The more I think about it, the more I believe that we can either remove the 2nd sentence completely or replace it with some kind of advice. How about this: The main focus of the category is on displays which present the development of interesting numerical data, rather than data with little variation over an extended period. When posting a new waymark, ask yourself "Is this display interesting enough to tell the world about it?" and if the answer is yes, go ahead. We will not exclude them, but drown them in many interesting, funny, stunning, surprising ... other waymarks. With the other exclusions we get rid of most of the uninteresting ones anyway. I would rather accept a "boring" display here and there than write a category description that takes a lot of time to read and understand and causes the officers unnecessary troubles when reviewing new waymarks. Edited August 23, 2019 by PISA-caching Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, elyob said: I like the idea of the website variable. Website addresses soon become stale. Can we suggest including some of the website's content in the description? The website variable is for websites that show (some or all) the numbers (of the diplay), so that everybody can see what the actual numbers are and compare them to the ones visible in the waymark and it's visits. There is for example a website that shows the debts of Germany at https://www.steuerzahler.de/aktion-position/staatsverschuldung/dieschuldenuhrdeutschlands/. Now you can compare that with the photo in the initial posting. Germany's debts are decreasing now. Congratulations! Of course people can always include some of the website's content (as long as they follow the rules regarding quotations), but that's not a substitute for what the variable is for. Maybe, I should work on the text regarding the variable to make the purpose of it more clear? Edited to add: I just searched for the website that Keith mentioned regarding the Libby Dam. I assume he was talking about https://www.nws.usace.army.mil/Missions/Civil-Works/Locks-and-Dams/Libby-Dam/ which not really shows the numbers in realtime, but at least more accurate numbers than in Keith's photo (and future waymark). So maybe I have to change the description of the variable: Website: If you know of a website, that shows all or part of the numbers in realtime or at least updated on a more or less regular basis (e.g. the website of a power station that shows the actual amount of produced energy), you can improve the quality of your waymark by filling this variable. How does that sound? Edited August 23, 2019 by PISA-caching 1 Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 "Displays, that for example show the number of days since the last accident in a company are not considered being business/sales related and therefore accepted." Such a counter on a construction site would be excluded because it is temporary? Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 No, they wouldn't be excluded. I think the cyclists counters start every day/month/year and are also not excluded. Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 4 hours ago, elyob said: "Displays, that for example show the number of days since the last accident in a company are not considered being business/sales related and therefore accepted." Such a counter on a construction site would be excluded because it is temporary? I would exclude these because when the job is complete the display will go away, IE it is temporary. Keith 1 Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 12 hours ago, PISA-caching said: The main focus of the category is on displays which present the development of interesting numerical data, rather than data with little variation over an extended period. When posting a new waymark, ask yourself "Is this display interesting enough to tell the world about it?" and if the answer is yes, go ahead. Yeah, that's a better solution. 12 hours ago, PISA-caching said: With the other exclusions we get rid of most of the uninteresting ones anyway. I would rather accept a "boring" display here and there than write a category description that takes a lot of time to read and understand and causes the officers unnecessary troubles when reviewing new waymarks. Yeah, I think that, too, is the way to go. Keith Quote Link to comment
+saopaulo1 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 What about something like this? If seen one in local libraries. Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 18 hours ago, saopaulo1 said: What about something like this? If seen one in local libraries. This is a great question. They are not commercial. In my part of the world, they are so common that they are no longer interesting. They are so common that there may be proximity issues. What do the rest of you think? Quote Link to comment
+Max and 99 Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Where I live, I've only seen these on college campuses. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 26, 2019 Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 On 8/23/2019 at 9:21 PM, BK-Hunters said: I would exclude these because when the job is complete the display will go away, IE it is temporary. Keith Ok, I'm not familiar with this kind of counter. I thought that they are set up at the entrance of a factory and set back to 0, if any accident has occurred. I don't know what "the job" exactly is. Are they used for example when building a bridge or a house and removed when the house is finished? In that case I would exclude them. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 26, 2019 Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 9 hours ago, elyob said: This is a great question. They are not commercial. In my part of the world, they are so common that they are no longer interesting. They are so common that there may be proximity issues. What do the rest of you think? I've never seen one of these in my part of the world. Therefore I would accept them and hope that no waymarker will post tons of the same kind of counter. I think the problem is similar to the advertising columns. I could post tons of advertising columns in my home town, because they seem to be everywhere. Instead I picked one that looks better than others and is in the center of the city and will only post additional ones, if they are (in whatever way) different to the first column. Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 9 hours ago, PISA-caching said: Are they used for example when building a bridge or a house and removed when the house is finished? In that case I would exclude them. Bingo! Keith Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted August 28, 2019 Author Share Posted August 28, 2019 Call for Officer Vote has been started. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted September 1, 2019 Author Share Posted September 1, 2019 Peer Review has started. Can't wait to read the comments. Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 Everybody, go vote. Quote Link to comment
+T0SHEA Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Andreas - it never hurts to start a new thread to announce a category's going to peer review. That puts it right in people's faces, making it harder to use the excuse that they "Had No Idea" it was in peer review. Keith 1 Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 Regarding the (so far) only negative comment in the peer review: I don't like the "countdown's end has to be 5 or more years in the future". Most countdown clocks are reset each year for a specific event. All the ones I've visited are like this. I'm willing to change that part of the category description to also include countdowns that start over again every year, but as usual this should be discussed in the forum. I don't know any such countdown and would like to avoid waymarks, where a countdown is actived every year (let's say) 30 days before an upcomming event takes place. Such countdown waymarks would lead waymarkers to displays that are inactive most of the time. So, a change of that part of the category description will only occur, if we find a definition that includes the mentioned countdowns, but doesn't automatically include countdowns that nobody wants (e.g. countdowns at traffic lights, countdowns that are inactive most of the time etc.). Quote Link to comment
+elyob Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Until I can consider an example of a permanent, continuous, restarting countdown; I vote for the category description to remain as it is. 1 Quote Link to comment
+bluesnote Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 On 9/2/2019 at 5:18 AM, PISA-caching said: Regarding the (so far) only negative comment in the peer review: I don't like the "countdown's end has to be 5 or more years in the future". Most countdown clocks are reset each year for a specific event. All the ones I've visited are like this. I'm willing to change that part of the category description to also include countdowns that start over again every year, but as usual this should be discussed in the forum. I don't know any such countdown and would like to avoid waymarks, where a countdown is actived every year (let's say) 30 days before an upcomming event takes place. Such countdown waymarks would lead waymarkers to displays that are inactive most of the time. So, a change of that part of the category description will only occur, if we find a definition that includes the mentioned countdowns, but doesn't automatically include countdowns that nobody wants (e.g. countdowns at traffic lights, countdowns that are inactive most of the time etc.). That's my comment. I only say this because there are interesting countdown clocks out there that reset each year, and I feel like they should be included in the category. I would suggest that you should add "if the clock continuously countdowns to an event for 1 full year and is reset after each event occurs, then they can be included in the category". This would exclude countdown clocks such as those used for the Olympics (which I've seen in many cities) which once the event starts are deactivated. However, they could be included here as well for their historical value, but I'll leave that up the community (and officers) to decide. If this issue can be updated to include annual countdown clocks after the category goes live, I'll change my vote. Quote Link to comment
+bluesnote Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 On 8/25/2019 at 8:01 PM, elyob said: This is a great question. They are not commercial. In my part of the world, they are so common that they are no longer interesting. They are so common that there may be proximity issues. What do the rest of you think? I enjoy seeing them, but like others have said I've really only seen them on college campuses. I have seen them in other places such as airports and libraries. The college that I currently attend have these everywhere. I go to a large public university, so I would assume there are hundred to a few thousand of them scattered throughout campus. One building could have 30 or more. While I do find these interesting (and if waymarked, would be fun to see the progression of the counter over the years), I believe it would be better to have this as a separate category, if any, in the future. This is something that can be worked out later. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted September 4, 2019 Author Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, bluesnote said: That's my comment.... It would be great, if you could give an example for such a countdown. Like I said before, I'm ready to change that rule when the category came to life. My suggestion for the new rule would be: The countdown's end has to be 5 or more years in the future or it has to be a long-term countdown that is continiously running and reset no more than once a year. But IF we change that rule this way, we probably should ask for a reference that the countdown is indeed long-term and not just running once. Peer Review is over. So, let's see, if Groundspeak accepts the new category too. In the meantime, I'm asking everybody to let us know what you think of the little change in the rule. Edited September 4, 2019 by PISA-caching Quote Link to comment
+bluesnote Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 20 hours ago, PISA-caching said: It would be great, if you could give an example for such a countdown. Like I said before, I'm ready to change that rule when the category came to life. My suggestion for the new rule would be: The countdown's end has to be 5 or more years in the future or it has to be a long-term countdown that is continiously running and reset no more than once a year. But IF we change that rule this way, we probably should ask for a reference that the countdown is indeed long-term and not just running once. Peer Review is over. So, let's see, if Groundspeak accepts the new category too. In the meantime, I'm asking everybody to let us know what you think of the little change in the rule. I've made a submission and it seems to be in a group vote. Let's see what the officers say. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 My vote was no, but not because of the countdown "problem". I will wait and see what my officers say about my suggestion for a change of the rules. Your waymark would be a great waymark, if you take care of the reasons for the denial. 1 Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted September 6, 2019 Author Share Posted September 6, 2019 The rule regarding the countdowns has been updated. Quote Link to comment
+Max and 99 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 I was so surprised to see my first trail counter today. My husband thought it was a power box. "No, no! It's a trail counter!" But the counter is not viewable to passersby. But I was so happy to even recognize it. 2 Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted June 16, 2023 Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 On 8/26/2019 at 11:42 AM, PISA-caching said: I've never seen one of these in my part of the world. Therefore I would accept them and hope that no waymarker will post tons of the same kind of counter. I wrote that years ago and referred to the "bottles saved" displays. It seems that my hope was in vain. The "Counting and Measuring Displays" category is cluttered with the displays on water dispensers. Not what I had in mind, when I started that category. So, is there a chance to stop / slow down that flood? Something like one water dispenser per user per region/country? What do my other officers and everybody else think? Quote Link to comment
+pmaupin Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 3 hours ago, PISA-caching said: Something like one water dispenser per user per region/country? Indeed that would be good. Quote Link to comment
Becktracker Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 These counters seem to me exactly 'counting and measuring displays'. So I think you are forced to accept them. Maybe go the 'thatch cottages' way: 1 wm per 0,5 miles... That way, you can prevent a tenfold waymarks in the same airport at least. Quote Link to comment
+ScroogieII Posted June 16, 2023 Share Posted June 16, 2023 41 minutes ago, pmaupin said: Indeed that would be good. I agree! It's a simple, yet direct method of (hopefully) returning the category to its intended mission. 1 Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted June 17, 2023 Author Share Posted June 17, 2023 15 hours ago, Becktracker said: ...you are forced to accept them... Is that really so? Is there any such "rule" that I can read somewhere? I don't want to deny all of them, but with "one 'bottles saved' WM per user per state/region/province" every WMer around the world still has the chance to find at least a 'bottles saved" display (if not any other display that is more interesting) and post it. Quote Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 19 hours ago, Becktracker said: These counters seem to me exactly 'counting and measuring displays'. So I think you are forced to accept them. Maybe go the 'thatch cottages' way: 1 wm per 0,5 miles... That way, you can prevent a tenfold waymarks in the same airport at least. Waymark set at a distance apart, is a good idea. If a store has two (or more) at least someone else can have a chance to WM one! Quote Link to comment
Becktracker Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 4 hours ago, PISA-caching said: Is that really so? Is there any such "rule" that I can read somewhere? The rules are the category descriptions. If a waymark conforms 100% to a category description, as in this case, it is eligable. You can off course edit the category description somehow, but I think it will be hard to write it in such a way that these can't be accepted Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 (edited) I would not be in favor of one bottle saved counting display per waymarker per country - I do look for these bottle fillers because they are subtle and counting displays of other types are rare to find. I am also not in favor of one WM of this type every (distance). Is it fair that I put a bottle saved WM at the zoo, and some other waymarker puts a bottle saved WM at a science museum planetarium next door, but they are denied due to distance? They can’t get visit on my WM because they didn’t go to the zoo, and they can’t pick up their category icon because I didn’t go to the planetarium. I get that a category full of bottle fillers is blah for officers, but I create my WMs for waymarkers to find, and hopefully grab an icon. I just found my 1st non-bottles-saved countdown a few days ago. —— Edit to add: I have a total of 15 WMs approved in this category, and 14 are bottles saved. Edited June 19, 2023 by Benchmark Blasterz Add info Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 3:43 PM, Becktracker said: You can off course edit the category description.... As I am the leader of that category and the one that had the idea for it, that's exactly what I was planning to do. 1 Quote Link to comment
+Benchmark Blasterz Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 So the more I am looking at all the waymarks in this category, the more I see that there are a TON of cool and different counting displays in Europe that I have never seen in the US — and not for a lack of trying! It seems that in the US the water bottle filler counters are everywhere, and the cyclist counters may be few but perhaps more are coming, and the vast number of solar power watts generated or air quality metering displays are not public. I was happy to find the one AQ meter I did at Mt. Rainier. I’d love to find a building with a solar array that showed the public how much power was generated - but I bet that is internal data not reported to the general public, and probably only the accountants and the local electric utility are tracking it. HMMMM - I think I have shown that this is not a one-and-done category for me, but I accept that water bottle stations are not interesting - unless it is the one you got the icon for! HA I will try and refrain from submitting others, even though I live in hope that I can help someone with a tough icon. Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 On 6/19/2023 at 10:44 PM, Benchmark Blasterz said: HMMMM - I think I have shown that this is not a one-and-done category for me, but I accept that water bottle stations are not interesting - unless it is the one you got the icon for! HA I will try and refrain from submitting others, even though I live in hope that I can help someone with a tough icon. There's no need to completely stop posting them to the category, but one per user and state will keep their numbers down. And I can understand that you posted them, so that others can at least post a visit in that category. But on the other hand: If a waymarker finds such a display and there is no waymark for it yet, he/she can easyly post a WM for it and get the icon. The requirements for this category aren't that difficult. :-) Quote Link to comment
+PISA-caching Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 I added a new rule to the description of Counting and Measuring Displays. Quote Link to comment
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