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Inactive Leaders / Abandoned Categories


jhuoni
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This isn't the first time I have jumped up on a soap box about this matter.

 

I was originally going to post this in the Abandoned Category thread. Then I decide to start a new topic, the reason is that the original thread was more about naming groups which are having problems. This is not to identify any single person or group. The purpose is to motivate groups to take action with in their ranks.

How can there be groups with leaders/officers who have not logged in in over a YEAR?

 

It was my understanding that in order to be a Leader or Officer of a group, you had to be a Premium (paid) Member. Yet there are groups with leadership who are no longer premium members. I won't point out any specific group or user. I will say that two of the groups that I recently became an officer in are currently working to correct such problems.

 

I have been told that Waymarking groups are "self governing" - we are responsible for our own groups and that the only time Waymarking "management" will get involved is if there is a real problem. Shouldn't there be some sort of check and balance to keep group leadership from "stagnating"?

(In My Humble Opinion: Every group needs to have at least 5 active officers.)

 

I challenge every group officer - if there is an officer in your group who has not logged in for over 6 months, vote them out. If that takes your group below the required THREE officer minimum, so be it. Come to forums and solicit new officers. (Take a look at your regular members, ask them if they are interested) If you can not vote out the inactive officers because you do not have the 2/3 majority to do it, and can not vote in new members (this is another issue) then CRY WOLF! (Bring it to forums and get some attention)

 

I am not saying to go on a witch hunt, if you have no pending waymarks or are not a member of a group leave it to those in that group. This is a mistake I made previously, and had to learn my lesson.

 

Quite frankly, I like this little game called Waymarking. I've met some really good people and it gives me an excuse to get outside, visit new places, take pictures and do a bit of research.

 

I don't like when I spend time to crate a waymark and it sits for two weeks before it gets approved.

 

I really hope that some of you out there feel the same way and are willing to take a closer look at your groups.

Edited by jhuoni
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Hi jhuoni,

the system is running fine. I'm an officer/leader in some categories. There are not many categories which are abandoned, perhaps only a few. It's easy, if there is a category which takes longer than (let's say 10 days) write the leader and the officers with the please to add you. If you get no answer or a whole category is abandoned, write Waywizard and the problem will be fixed pretty soon. You wrote you like to have at least 5 officers. I think 3 is 100% enough if all three are active (Votes are finished fast). Dismiss votes for "Regular Members" in a group make no sense, it's better to create some Waymarks in that time.

Regards,

-lumbricus :omnomnom:

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jhuoni,

Why do you think Waymarking is also called Whybothermarking? :laughing: I have only been Waymarking for four years, but I have had to contact group leaders and ask very nicely for them to PLEASE review my waymark. Recently several of my waymarks were rejected by one person that is a officer in many categories, and they had to tell me that most of my published waymarks are substandard anyway. :anicute: This is not geocaching my friend, people could care less about how you and I and a few others that would like to see this site improved and running smoothly. It is working for them, and that is all that matters. So why bother? :huh:

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jhuoni, I did take action based on this new thread as I believe it does have merit. For one group, votes to remove two very inactive leaders were started to prune the roster, which does have adequately active management. For another, volunteered to be promoted since Waywizard had to get involved with approving the queue of submitted waymarks. We'll refresh the leadership for that category. As a self-managed organization, some behind-the-scenes actions need to occur.

 

Per Teddy Roosevelt's "The Man in the Arena" speech, "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

 

For most of the smaller categories which is where the problems typically lie, three reasonable present leaders is adequate to cover the few waymarks posted. The larger categories tend to already have sufficient management. Hopefully, we can spread the workload for the hundreds of waymarks created each day, so that no inbox is overloaded.

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The thing that is good about having multiple people to approve in a category is that you have backup when you are unavailable. But the curse of having multiple people is that we each think the other is working on the queue while we are working on our tans.

 

Personally, I am happy to prioritize something if I am requested. With my gmail account, I sometimes find that things get stacked by subject line and it doesn't jump out at me that I have submissions.

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I wish it were really like that, lumbricus, but there seems to be something inexplicable called "non-normal human behavior" involved in some of these groups.

 

An example is a category that I regularly post to and which usually has from 1 to 4 days for turnaround. Recently when the only leader was out of pocket for a couple of weeks, nothing was happening. A cordial offer for assistance met with, what looked like, a pre-made response that this only active leader could take care of everything himself, and that we should be patient if he is unavailable for 2 or 3 weeks. It's a very simple category with very simple posting requirements (and with the usual visiting requirements that have some posting items in it, as so often happens); so it's not like a new assistant would get it wrong and start allowing things that shouldn't be allowed.

 

I don't get it. It seems that this leader doesn't mind that there are 5 or 6 other officers who have not logged in for over 2 years, but wants to do everything himself. Is this an ego trip or something? This is a nice hobby; but I fail to see what purpose is served in "hording" a category all to yourself. Strange behaviors like this may be one of the reasons that we've seen those bitter "I'm leaving this lousy hobby" forum posts we've all seen. If this is going to succeed, we all need to work together nicely and not sabotage the game by peculiar behavior. ;)

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...An example is a category that I regularly post to and which usually has from 1 to 4 days for turnaround. Recently when the only leader was out of pocket for a couple of weeks, nothing was happening. A cordial offer for assistance met with, what looked like, a pre-made response that this only active leader could take care of everything himself, and that we should be patient if he is unavailable for 2 or 3 weeks. It's a very simple category with very simple posting requirements (and with the usual visiting requirements that have some posting items in it, as so often happens); so it's not like a new assistant would get it wrong and start allowing things that shouldn't be allowed...

This is not the right way. I agree with you. A good leader should check his officers regularly. If an officer gets inactive -> demote him and promote an active waymarker. That's how I do it with all my categories. If you know categories which have only one active officer or leader who reviews too slowly ask Waywizard to get promoted. But as I stated above these categories are not many (perhaps 5%). Things can always be better, but on the other hand it could be much worse.

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I'm an officer in the Exact Replicas category...and I have one submission waiting from March and two from April. I don't think that I should be reviewing my own Waymarks...but I see that some Waymarks are approved by the same person who submitted them. Is that cool?

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I'm an officer in the Exact Replicas category...and I have one submission waiting from March and two from April. I don't think that I should be reviewing my own Waymarks...but I see that some Waymarks are approved by the same person who submitted them. Is that cool?

Hey there Metro2. Good question!

 

That is NOT cool. I know certain waymarkers do that, and it makes me mad.

If your category is in such bad shape that you have to approve your own waymarks, then the leader or officers with authority need to step up and get more officers involved.

Edited by Max and 99
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I'm an officer in the Exact Replicas category...and I have one submission waiting from March and two from April. I don't think that I should be reviewing my own Waymarks...but I see that some Waymarks are approved by the same person who submitted them. Is that cool?

Hey there Metro2. Good question!

 

That is NOT cool. I know certain waymarkers do that, and it makes me mad.

If your category is in such bad shape that you have to approve your own waymarks, then the leader or officers with authority need to step up and get more officers involved.

I don't see nothing wrong with approving your own waymark if no other officers will take the time to review it. People visit their own waymarks, why not approve them? :laughing: One is just as lame as the other to me. :D

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I waited a week on one of my submissions...

 

Then sent a message to the other two officers asking if someone could check it for me.

It was approved. :laughing:

 

I'd rather not review/accept my own waymark submission...

It's easier to decline others waymarks, as there's no come-back with them saying along the lines of "Yours is wrong, but you accepted it yourself..."

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Approving own waymarks

If I notice that my Waymarks wait until I review other Waymarks in a category I promote an active Waymarker. Very easy to solve.

 

I use the same method. If mine sit for a few days in a category I lead then I look to see if I have some new active Waymarkers to promote from my regular members.

Edited by BruceS
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The preceding messages, although they appear to be off topic, are an excellent example of the point I am trying to make.

 

Those of us who are THIRD, SECOND, or even FIRST Officers do not have the ability to recruit new members in some categories. All we can do is approve/deny waymarks. The leader is the only person who can bring in new officers. When that leader decides to take an extended leave of absence (INACTIVE LEADER), the group now lacks the ability to bring in new members, even if they wanted to.

Since the group was brought up by Metro2 - Exact Replicas - there are four officers (leader plus three) the Leader is the only one who can recruit new members. The leader has not logged in since July 2013. (I really don't like to point out groups which I don't have any tie to. However, I did join this group as a regular member this evening)

 

Just for the record, I would never approve my own waymarks.

Edited by jhuoni
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As far as I know, any officer can at least put up a regular member for promotion to officer status. It does require at least a two-thirds vote which may be difficult to get if there are inactive officers.

 

I have also had to recruit/promote officers in some groups where I am leader in order to get my own waymarks reviewed.

 

There are no written guidelines that prohibit one from reviewing one's own waymarks, but it is generally regarded as poor policy, although I know some people who do it regularly. It is not so much a matter of ethics, in my view, but a matter of quality control. Why do authors hire proof readers? It is simply because we miss our own mistakes, and I don't want to miss my own mistakes in a waymark.

 

There is a protocol for dealing with abandoned or languishing categories, but I don't know if it is still functioning.

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As far as I know, any officer can at least put up a regular member for promotion to officer status. It does require at least a two-thirds vote which may be difficult to get if there are inactive officers.

 

I have also had to recruit/promote officers in some groups where I am leader in order to get my own waymarks reviewed.

 

There are no written guidelines that prohibit one from reviewing one's own waymarks, but it is generally regarded as poor policy, although I know some people who do it regularly. It is not so much a matter of ethics, in my view, but a matter of quality control. Why do authors hire proof readers? It is simply because we miss our own mistakes, and I don't want to miss my own mistakes in a waymark.

 

There is a protocol for dealing with abandoned or languishing categories, but I don't know if it is still functioning.

 

Group Leader:

Permissions

:Can Edit Category

Can Edit Waymarks

Can Edit Content

Can Edit Logo

Can Recruit New Members

Can Review Waymarks

Can Send Group Emails

 

 

Group Officer

Permissions:

Can Review Waymarks

 

Not in this group, only person with the ability to bring in new members is the LEADER.

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Group Leader:

Permissions

:Can Edit Category

Can Edit Waymarks

Can Edit Content

Can Edit Logo

Can Recruit New Members

Can Review Waymarks

Can Send Group Emails

 

 

Group Officer

Permissions:

Can Review Waymarks

 

Not in this group, only person with the ability to bring in new members is the LEADER.

 

This depends on if the group has open enrollment or not. If the group has closed enrollment then it is true that only the leader can recruit new members (send an invite via the site to ask them to join). If the enrollment is open then regular members can join at will and invites are not needed. Once a waymarker is a regular member any officer can put them up for promotion and it requires 2/3's of those voting to approve. (The leader can promote without a vote.)

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Group Leader:

Permissions

:Can Edit Category

Can Edit Waymarks

Can Edit Content

Can Edit Logo

Can Recruit New Members

Can Review Waymarks

Can Send Group Emails

 

 

Group Officer

Permissions:

Can Review Waymarks

 

Not in this group, only person with the ability to bring in new members is the LEADER.

 

This depends on if the group has open enrollment or not. If the group has closed enrollment then it is true that only the leader can recruit new members (send an invite via the site to ask them to join). If the enrollment is open then regular members can join at will and invites are not needed. Once a waymarker is a regular member any officer can put them up for promotion and it requires 2/3's of those voting to approve. (The leader can promote without a vote.)

 

That is the problem:

 

The group has OPEN ENROLLMENT. If there is only one active member (NOT THE LEADER), regardless of how many people join as "REGULAR" members, that one person can not bring in a new officer - because there will never be a 66% vote achieved.

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The importantant question is: do you need 66% of all officers or of the voting ones? There is no clear information about this point available.

 

66% of the voting ones. If only one officer votes with "Yes" it takes three days and the voted member is a new officer.

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The importantant question is: do you need 66% of all officers or of the voting ones? There is no clear information about this point available.

 

66% of the voting ones. If only one officer votes with "Yes" it takes three days and the voted member is a new officer.

 

Really?

 

So if there are 10 officers and only one person votes, in 3 days it passes? That doesn't make sense ro me. But I can see how that would be better than a vote failing if no one else in the group logs in during that time period.

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The importantant question is: do you need 66% of all officers or of the voting ones? There is no clear information about this point available.

 

66% of the voting ones. If only one officer votes with "Yes" it takes three days and the voted member is a new officer.

 

Really?

 

So if there are 10 officers and only one person votes, in 3 days it passes? That doesn't make sense ro me. But I can see how that would be better than a vote failing if no one else in the group logs in during that time period.

 

If you want to overthrow the group, pick your time to launch the voting very carefully! :ph34r:

 

:laughing:

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The importantant question is: do you need 66% of all officers or of the voting ones? There is no clear information about this point available.

 

66% of the voting ones. If only one officer votes with "Yes" it takes three days and the voted member is a new officer.

 

Really?

 

So if there are 10 officers and only one person votes, in 3 days it passes? That doesn't make sense ro me. But I can see how that would be better than a vote failing if no one else in the group logs in during that time period.

 

As I stated in my original answer it is two-thirds of those voting to promote an officer. Not all things need to make sense, they are what they are :rolleyes: However, to demote the leader it takes 100% of officers to vote yes not just the voting.

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The importantant question is: do you need 66% of all officers or of the voting ones? There is no clear information about this point available.

 

66% of the voting ones. If only one officer votes with "Yes" it takes three days and the voted member is a new officer.

 

Really?

 

So if there are 10 officers and only one person votes, in 3 days it passes? That doesn't make sense ro me. But I can see how that would be better than a vote failing if no one else in the group logs in during that time period.

 

As I stated in my original answer it is two-thirds of those voting to promote an officer. Not all things need to make sense, they are what they are :rolleyes: However, to demote the leader it takes 100% of officers to vote yes not just the voting.

So you first have to bring in the new crowd and denote all inactive officers, and then go for the leader. :ph34r:

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Hello there,

 

Megalithic monuments needs a new leader. The current leader "The Royles" have apparently not logged in since 2012. I would be willing to take over the leadership of this category. I will first try to contact "The Royles" but I'm not very hopeful that I will get a response.

 

Best regards,

RitC.

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Hello there,

 

Megalithic monuments needs a new leader. The current leader "The Royles" have apparently not logged in since 2012. I would be willing to take over the leadership of this category. I will first try to contact "The Royles" but I'm not very hopeful that I will get a response.

 

Best regards,

RitC.

 

Hi RakeInTheCache,

"The Royles" never answered a mail I wrote to them. They are longer inactive than 2012. You can write to KingfisherTeam and snaik with the please to promote you. If you are in, call the needed votes.

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Hello there,

 

Megalithic monuments needs a new leader. The current leader "The Royles" have apparently not logged in since 2012. I would be willing to take over the leadership of this category. I will first try to contact "The Royles" but I'm not very hopeful that I will get a response.

 

Best regards,

RitC.

 

Hi RakeInTheCache,

"The Royles" never answered a mail I wrote to them. They are longer inactive than 2012. You can write to KingfisherTeam and snaik with the please to promote you. If you are in, call the needed votes.

 

Done, now anyone know if Waywizard is still active. I sent a note about this category and the airports category (I have two waymarks aging there) several weeks ago and didn't get a reply. What about Checkmark. Is he also still the right person to contact for stuck waymarks?

 

Thanks much,

RitC

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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...Done, now anyone know if Waywizard is still active. I sent a note about this category and the airports category (I have two waymarks aging there) several weeks ago and didn't get a reply. What about Checkmark. Is he also still the right person to contact for stuck waymarks?

 

Thanks much,

RitC

 

Waywizard is the right person to contact. Checkmark retired.

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Shoe Trees Officers are taking their sweet time. So far my waymark has been waiting for 6 weeks. ONE officer logged on a week ago, but didn't review it. The only requirement is that it be a tree with shoes on it, so it can't be that hard to take a look and decide. It's been years since some of those officers logged in.

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Shoe Trees Officers are taking their sweet time. So far my waymark has been waiting for 6 weeks. ONE officer logged on a week ago, but didn't review it. The only requirement is that it be a tree with shoes on it, so it can't be that hard to take a look and decide. It's been years since some of those officers logged in.

 

Worse is when you send messages to the most active officers offering help to clear the backlog by becoming an officer and you receive no reply.

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Shoe Trees Officers are taking their sweet time. So far my waymark has been waiting for 6 weeks. ONE officer logged on a week ago, but didn't review it. The only requirement is that it be a tree with shoes on it, so it can't be that hard to take a look and decide. It's been years since some of those officers logged in.

 

Worse is when you send messages to the most active officers offering help to clear the backlog by becoming an officer and you receive no reply.

Heaven knows why, but the chance to receive an answe is significantly higher when you contact them through their Geocaching profile instead of the Waymarking profile.

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Shoe Trees Officers are taking their sweet time. So far my waymark has been waiting for 6 weeks. ONE officer logged on a week ago, but didn't review it. The only requirement is that it be a tree with shoes on it, so it can't be that hard to take a look and decide. It's been years since some of those officers logged in.

 

Worse is when you send messages to the most active officers offering help to clear the backlog by becoming an officer and you receive no reply.

Heaven knows why, but the chance to receive an answe is significantly higher when you contact them through their Geocaching profile instead of the Waymarking profile.

 

Couldn't hurt to try. Looks like Kingfisher Team doesn't have a geocaching account or at least I couldn't find it so I mailed Snaik and The Royles at their Geocaching addresses. It's worth a shot.

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I agree, the leader has been generally dormant for a long time in many categories and I have been dismissing him from the leadership teams of my categories. Are you willing to mount a coup and take over leadership of the Topiaries category? If so, send a note to Waywizard indicating your willingness with a link to your languishing waymark. I just took over leadership of the Airports category that way (one of my favorites.)

 

Good luck!

RitC

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Almost two month wait for my waymark review. Contrary to what what someone once posted on the forums, this is not a "perceived" delay. This is an unacceptable delay!

 

By the way, recently someone included a link to a really funny story about a very long delay for someone's first waymark. It took months, and he had forgotten about it by that time. I can't find the mention, does anyone else remember?

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I'm not usually the impatient type, I hope. But I submitted my first waymark to a category that is new to me. It was submitted on the 19th and three officers (active Waymarkers) have signed into Waymarking since then, and apparently ignored the waymark; or didn't notice it if there was an issue with the email system (it happens!).

 

Since I'm new to that category, I'm wondering if I have something wrong with it.

 

Thank you!

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I don't know. Four officers have signed into Waymarking today and the Waymark is not in group review or anything.

 

If I already had some waymarks approved in this category, I'd offer to help out, since they'd have to be pretty swamped to have 4 signed-in officers not be able to get to a simple waymark like that. But I don't feel right about offering to help if I haven't even gotten approval on a single waymark in the category yet!

 

Mystery! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

Edit: Well, one of the 4 officers who signed in today did approve someone else's waymark -- that had been posted over a month ago! So I guess they only approve waymarks once per month in this category, and I just have to wait for my month. OK. I have waited two months for waymarks in Unoccupied Buildings, Shacks, and Cabins, so I guess I can wait again.

 

But if I ever do get this approved, I'm definitely going to ask about helping out. It should not be SOP to wait a month for each Waymark approval in this category! :sad:

Edited by MountainWoods
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I don't know. Four officers have signed into Waymarking today and the Waymark is not in group review or anything.

 

If I already had some waymarks approved in this category, I'd offer to help out, since they'd have to be pretty swamped to have 4 signed-in officers not be able to get to a simple waymark like that. But I don't feel right about offering to help if I haven't even gotten approval on a single waymark in the category yet!

 

Mystery! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

Edit: Well, one of the 4 officers who signed in today did approve someone else's waymark -- that had been posted over a month ago! So I guess they only approve waymarks once per month in this category, and I just have to wait for my month. OK. I have waited two months for waymarks in Unoccupied Buildings, Shacks, and Cabins, so I guess I can wait again.

 

But if I ever do get this approved, I'm definitely going to ask about helping out. It should not be SOP to wait a month for each Waymark approval in this category! :sad:

 

Yes you are impatient, complaining about a category on the third day is unreasonable. There can be reasons that a waymark may show a month when it has only been a few days, the date posted is the day the waymarker started entry on the waymark, not when they submitted it for review. Often times waymarkers enter preliminary information for a waymark and then completed it days, weeks or months later.

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