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FTF Being Claimed Before Cache is Published

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This is ridiculous, it´s like scoring a goal before the game even begins!!!!
Maybe finding a cache is not considered "scoring a goal".

 

Maybe the game begins when the cache is hidden, or when the cache owner provides the cache information to someone else by whatever means, and not when the cache is listed on the geocaching.com site. Geocaching.com does not own geocaching.

 

Geocaching game starts when the cache is published because... those are the rules!
Says who? Again, geocaching.com does not own geocaching.

 

Until it is published it is not active,
Until it is published on geocaching.com it is not active on geocaching.com. But geocaching.com does not own geocaching. There are other geocache listing sites, and the cache owner can provide cache information to seekers by other means if desired.

 

 

In the game guidelines it is said that all caches must be approved by a reviewer, did the reviewer approved the cache? No! The cache can actually be never published because it doesn´t comply with all the guidelines, thus never loggable online. Is it clear for you now?
The geocaching.com guidelines require a reviewer to publish the cache, but again, geocaching.com does not own geocaching.

 

And a cache cannot be logged online at geocaching.com until it is published on geocaching.com, but that has nothing to do with whether the cache can be found. Once the cache is hidden, it can be found. Once the cache owner provides the cache info to someone else, it can be found using that cache info, regardless of how the owner provided that info.

 

Cache can be physically in place but not part of the game yet.
Says who? Again, geocaching.com does not own geocaching.

 

 

The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.
Again, geocaching.com does not own geocaching.

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The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.

I hate to be pedantic, but this isn't so. Groundspeak does not own the term "Geocaching," and it's played on other sites all the time. The rules of Geocaching are NOT managed by Groundspeak; GS just happens to be the largest listing service for geocaches.

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The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.

I hate to be pedantic, but this isn't so. Groundspeak does not own the term "Geocaching," and it's played on other sites all the time. The rules of Geocaching are NOT managed by Groundspeak; GS just happens to be the largest listing service for geocaches.

 

Ok I understand that, but remember that the topic is "FTF Being Claimed Before Cache is Published" so I figure that it is related to this website "Geocaching.com" and the guidelines that apply to it. Considering THIS website and THIS topic I still feel that logging a FTF before cache is published goes against the rules of the game described in THIS website.

 

Just an example about another game, much more common and played by many people, that is called Basketball. This game "Basketball" has many rules that are common to all the countries but some are different, is this case I´ll only use the measures of the 3 points line, to explain in a simple matter.

 

NBA rules (used in the USA) state that the 3 points line is 23.75 ft and 22 ft in the corner.

FIBA rules (used in Europe) state that the 3 point line is 22.15 ft and 21.65 ft in corner.

 

So they are actually playing the same game but under a different set of rules. Funny enough, when both of them play together, like in the Olympics, they use the FIBA rules.

 

Hopping that this example clarifies my opinion about the rules of Geocaching, inside the Geocaching.com website, managed by Groundspeak. If there are different rules for this game in other websites you shouldn´t, but you sure can, use those rules here.

 

This is my initial reply to the topic, not being sarcastic and maybe a bit more clarifying... <_<

Edited by JPreto

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The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.

I hate to be pedantic, but this isn't so. Groundspeak does not own the term "Geocaching," and it's played on other sites all the time. The rules of Geocaching are NOT managed by Groundspeak; GS just happens to be the largest listing service for geocaches.

 

Ok I understand that, but remember that the topic is "FTF Being Claimed Before Cache is Published" so I figure that it is related to this website "Geocaching.com" and the guidelines that apply to it. Considering THIS website and THIS topic I still feel that logging a FTF before cache is published goes against the rules of the game described in THIS website.

 

And where in the "rules" of this website/game is there any mention of what qualifies as a FTF?

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The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.

I hate to be pedantic, but this isn't so. Groundspeak does not own the term "Geocaching," and it's played on other sites all the time. The rules of Geocaching are NOT managed by Groundspeak; GS just happens to be the largest listing service for geocaches.

 

Ok I understand that, but remember that the topic is "FTF Being Claimed Before Cache is Published" so I figure that it is related to this website "Geocaching.com" and the guidelines that apply to it. Considering THIS website and THIS topic I still feel that logging a FTF before cache is published goes against the rules of the game described in THIS website.

 

And where in the "rules" of this website/game is there any mention of what qualifies as a FTF?

 

From gc.com's glossary of caching terms:

 

"FTF

First to Find. An acronym written by geocachers in physical cache logbooks or online when logging cache finds to denote being the first to find a new geocache."

 

Hmmm...no mention of "after review and publication". Just "new geocache".

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And where in the "rules" of this website/game is there any mention of what qualifies as a FTF?

There isn´t because Groundspeak doesn´t consider a FTF as an achievement but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer. So, the FTF, First To Find can only be registered after the cache has been published.

 

This doesn´t mean that the same cache serves for 2 different websites thus, the FTF from the other website is different from the FTF from this website, because different rules apply.

 

Again, just my opinion, you may or may not agree with it.

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This doesn´t mean that the same cache serves for 2 different websites thus, the FTF from the other website is different from the FTF from this website, because different rules apply.
To me, it sounds like you're confusing FTF (First To Find) with FTFAP (First To Find After Publication).

 

And sure, I can log my find on geocaching.com only after the cache is published on geocaching.com, but that doesn't mean that I can't find the cache before it is published on geocaching.com, or that I can't log that find using the date of the find (which may be earlier than the date it was published on geocaching.com).

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And where in the "rules" of this website/game is there any mention of what qualifies as a FTF?

There isn´t because Groundspeak doesn´t consider a FTF as an achievement but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer. So, the FTF, First To Find can only be registered after the cache has been published.

 

This doesn´t mean that the same cache serves for 2 different websites thus, the FTF from the other website is different from the FTF from this website, because different rules apply.

 

Again, just my opinion, you may or may not agree with it.

Groundspeak is not a governing body like the NBA or FIBA. In fact, since geocaching is a fun activity and not a true competitive game or sport, there is no need for a governing body or official rules.

 

Groundpeak does have guidelines, but these are related to what geocaches can be published on their site and include a few rules about the responsibilities of cache owners in order to maintain their listing on Geocaching.com.

 

Groundspeak also has a description of how the game is commonly played which they occasionally refer to as "rules". But "rules", in this sense, are not official rules with penalties for violation but are mere suggestions for people to understand how the game is commonly played.

 

The FTF "game" in particular has no official rules. While Groundspeak recognizes that some people like to compete to see who will be the first to find a particular cache, they have stated that they are not in the business of either defining what FTF is or adjudicating disputes between cachers over FTF.

 

I'll repeat what Jeremy Irish has said

Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find.
Edited by tozainamboku

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And where in the "rules" of this website/game is there any mention of what qualifies as a FTF?

There isn´t because Groundspeak doesn´t consider a FTF as an achievement but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer. So, the FTF, First To Find can only be registered after the cache has been published.

I must be reviewing under a different guidelines document, or perhaps we have a language translation issue (although JPreto's English is quite excellent).

 

The listing guidelines say this: "Before a geocache is published on the website, a volunteer reviewer will look at the page for compliance with these guidelines. The physical geocache site is not verified. As the geocache owner, you retain all responsibility for your geocache listings and you are responsible for the placement and care of your geocache."

 

There's nothing in that quote about only being able to log a find after the cache is "approved by a Reviewer." As a reviewer, I publish listings that meet the guidelines -- including many that I do not approve of personally. It's irrelevant to me when the logs are dated. Just today, I published a cache hidden over the weekend for a "Maker Madness" event. Participants at the event logged finds on the day of the event -- that is, prior to my publishing it today. This matters not. I was happy to see that so many people had fun at the event.

 

The listing guidelines do have this to say about logging finds: "Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed." If Groundspeak intended to forbid logs prior to publication, this would have been the place to say so. It's not there.

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...but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer.

 

Reference please?

 

(Edit: this request is moot based on Keystone's post)

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs

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There isn´t because Groundspeak doesn´t consider a FTF as an achievement but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer. So, the FTF, First To Find can only be registered after the cache has been published.

There's nothing in that quote about only being able to log a find after the cache is "approved by a Reviewer."

(...)

The listing guidelines do have this to say about logging finds: "Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed."

As someone put it FTF is a "side-game" of geocaching, even if it is not recognized by Groundspeak it is by most of geocachers, we will see what the future holds...

 

This Topic is about if it is ok or not to claim a FTF before being published but now it has turned if physical logs on any cache prior to the publication date should or shouldn´t be recognized in the Geocaching.com Website. For me there are 2 statements here:

 

1) If the FTF side-game is important for some, and not important for others and it is not recognized by the Geocaching.com guidelines then, and answering to the first post, it really doesn´t matter if I write or not the FTF (First To Find), the FTFAP (after publicaction), the FTFNL (new log), the FTFAM (after maintenance) or the FTFAFTF (FTF After FTF) also called STF (Second To Find). It is for you and for you, only since the game is not competitive and no one really cares about this. This is my hypocrite and sarcastic version.

 

2)Since I believe that most geocachers like the game and love their numbers (otherwise why do photologing and couchlogging) the FTF side-game is another challenge inside the Geocaching.com that is recognized by most geocachers. In this case, and considering that the cache, inside the Geocaching.com, is only available for ALL website users (Geocaching.com game players) I feel that all logs before the publication date are off the game, the same way all "archived" geocaches are off the game. For me the game and FTF sub-game start when the cache is published.

 

And by the way...

If Groundspeak intended to forbid logs prior to publication, this would have been the place to say so. It's not there.

Following the same reasoning, if the cache already has a GC code and it is physically placed, why Geocaching.com website doesn´t allow players to view the cache? If Geocaching.com website wanted that it would be easy to allow caches to be seen after being enabled by the owner but prior to reviewer publishing.

 

What would be the "problem" to say: "Cache is in place but not published yet."

 

I rest my case...

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...but it sure states that the cache can only be logged after being approved by a Reviewer.

 

Reference please?

 

(Edit: this request is moot based on Keystone's post)

 

Does it have to be written? Try and log a FOUND before a cache is published... :lol:

 

As pointed before by me, how easy would it be for Geocaching.com website make the cache available for all after the CO enabled it and before the reviewer approves it, but they don´t do it.

 

Also, if the cache is only available for some people (friends of the cache owner) how fair is the FTF side-game?

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2)Since I believe that most geocachers like the game and love their numbers (otherwise why do photologing and couchlogging) the FTF side-game is another challenge inside the Geocaching.com that is recognized by most geocachers. In this case, and considering that the cache, inside the Geocaching.com, is only available for ALL website users (Geocaching.com game players) I feel that all logs before the publication date are off the game, the same way all "archived" geocaches are off the game. For me the game and FTF sub-game start when the cache is published.

 

Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Not sure how this went three pages, but the premise is simple. FTF is a binary state. You either are or you are not, regardless of published status or date.

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For me the game and FTF sub-game start when the cache is published.

So if I decide that for me FTF doesn't start until my next day off, does that mean that's how everyone should play?

 

Also, if the cache is only available for some people (friends of the cache owner) how fair is the FTF side-game?

 

 

Are you saying the cache does not exist until it is published here? The reviewer approves it, and it just magically appear in place? Nope. So it is possible to find it before it is published here isn't it? And the person who finds it before anyone else would be the first to find, right? I always though it was FTF-First to find. Not FTFABPOG-First To Find After Being Published On Geocaching.com

 

Speaking of fair-it's not fair. Life isn't fair. You know the saying, nobody dies a virgin because life screws us all. For our purposes, not everyone has a premium membership. Not all those that do are able to go out soon as a cache is published- they have to work. What about the guy who goes over the speed limit to get there? Does he lose FTF because he broke the law?

 

There are more than 2 million geocaches. Even if you get 200 FTF's that's only .01 percent of all the caches. One FTF that you didn't get doesn't seem such a big deal now does it?

Edited by T.D.M.22

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The problem is, "FTF" means different things to different people.

So, who is anyone to force that definition on everyone else's play method?

Claim FTF if you want. The only people who have a reason, at best, to be upset are the people who are playing the same way.

That's why there's no official definition.

Let people play how they want.

If you think you're the first to find (after publication) then claim FTF. Who cares. It's your profile stats, you can brag about them how you want.

I have my own FTF-claiming guidelines. I like to think it's in line with most other cachers'. But I won't care if someone else has a different standard and also wants to claim FTF. And, unless they make a good case to me about not being ftf, then it won't bother me if they're bothered that I claimed (my own) ftf. Big woop. Uneeded angst.

Play your own game. And try to play in a way that doesn't damage most peoples' enjoyment (even then, that line's really up to you).

That's about it.

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If Groundspeak intended to forbid logs prior to publication, this would have been the place to say so. It's not there.
Following the same reasoning, if the cache already has a GC code and it is physically placed, why Geocaching.com website doesn´t allow players to view the cache? If Geocaching.com website wanted that it would be easy to allow caches to be seen after being enabled by the owner but prior to reviewer publishing.
So if I understand you correctly, you'd like Groundspeak to publish cache listings before they've reviewed those listings for compliance with the publication guidelines. Is that right?

 

And if Groundspeak does enforce the publication guidelines, then somehow you think that is related to whether people can log their geocache finds online. Is that right?

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Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Yup. I've lost interest in being first to find. Last to find takes more research and is more of a challenge.

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The game we play here is called Geocaching and the rules of this game are managed by Groundspeak, not Facebook or any other website.

 

(bold added by me)

 

Groundspeak happens to be the largest listing site for this "hobby", but it does not manage the rules for the "hobby". They have a say as to what caches can be listed on their site and they can even make rules concerning the logging of those caches on their site. But they do not make the rules for all caches nor do they control who can or cannot claim a find on anyone's caches. They only control what happens on this site.

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What would be the "problem" to say: "Cache is in place but not published yet."

 

Caches can have a lot of problems prior to publication; being on private property comes to mind.

 

You wouldn't want to have a lot of people searching for a cache in an area it should not be in. Reviewers have information a lot of geocachers don't. It is their job to try help you work through those issues prior to telling the world to come on over and search.

 

This does not mean that you can't invite someone to look for the cache before they publish. But it is still wise of Groundspeak to limit the number of people who are aware of the cache's existence and location until they have a chance to look over it first.

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Although some people play the FTF game, not everyone does, and not every hide should be expected to have a blank log upon publication. There are plenty that are hidden for events and not published until afterwards. Having an expectation of a competion when others are not is kind of silly.

 

It was sometime around 1986 when I pulled my '71 Mustang fastback up to a traffic light next to a '67 Camaro. The two kids sitting in the Chevy started laughing and making wisecracks about my car. I put it in neutral and reved the engine, they did the same. When the light for the cross street turned yellow I placed it in drive and with one foot on the brake and the other on the gas, the back wheels started spinning, filling the wheel wells with white smoke. The Camaro did also. At the instant it turned green the Camaro shot like a rocket down the street, while I quickly made a right turn, and drove around another way. Racing? You thought I wanted to race? Eventually I drive by the spot just up the road where a cop was taking radar, and I smiled and waved to them parked on the side of the road while the red and blue lights flashed behind them. :D Today I'll be driving my Buick at 75 mph on the interstate with the cruise control on, and notice the slower moving cars ahead are speeding up when I approach. Geez. Who the heck are they racing? Competing for FTF is nice, but don't always expect it.

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Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Yup. I've lost interest in being first to find. Last to find takes more research and is more of a challenge.

 

Being last to find is actually very easy. But you might have a lot of really angry cache owners when they find out you walked off with their cache. :lol:

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Geocaching game starts when the cache is published because... those are the rules!

I'm assuming you can cite a source for this?

I've read the guidelines several times, and I can't seem to find it.

Help a brother out?

< meaningless text snipped for brevity >

Is it clear for you now?

A simple "No, I can't cite a source" would suffice.

Edited by Clan Riffster

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Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Yup. I've lost interest in being first to find. Last to find takes more research and is more of a challenge.

 

Being last to find is actually very easy. But you might have a lot of really angry cache owners when they find out you walked off with their cache. :lol:

 

Totally Off-Topic, or maybe it isn´t, but I can´t help it:

 

You are actually never last to find because even if you retrieve the box from is original place someone can make a Throwdown and say FOUND IT!!! :lol:

 

Or Throwdowns are not part of the game... I can also say FTFAT (FTF After Throwdown) :P

 

Just one remark, a traditional cache A has been placed inside the 0.1 miles mark of another traditional cache B and I published it in another listing, like my Facebook or whatever, so someone goes there and claims the FTF... after a year or so the cache B that was blocking the listing in Geocaching.com website is archived so I resubmit the cache and it is listed in Geocaching.com.

 

So the FTF goes to? The FTF on Geocaching.com goes to the guy that first discovered it a year ago!!!!

 

Come on, can´t you see you are using the rules/guidelines/indications as you please. Sometimes you follow Groundspeak, others you follow another site, but the "results" are always in Geocaching.com website because is the biggest and most important in the geocaching game.

 

It´s like using a law of any country in the world and saying: "But I am a world citizen so I can choose whatever country I want to be judge at..."

 

Can´t you see you are mixing 2 different things, about the same game, but use them both in the same website because it´s where you get your numbers and you can brag about it? <_<

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Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Yup. I've lost interest in being first to find. Last to find takes more research and is more of a challenge.

 

Being last to find is actually very easy. But you might have a lot of really angry cache owners when they find out you walked off with their cache. :lol:

 

Totally Off-Topic, or maybe it isn´t, but I can´t help it:

 

You are actually never last to find because even if you retrieve the box from is original place someone can make a Throwdown and say FOUND IT!!! :lol:

 

Or Throwdowns are not part of the game... I can also say FTFAT (FTF After Throwdown) :P

 

Just one remark, a traditional cache A has been placed inside the 0.1 miles mark of another traditional cache B and I published it in another listing, like my Facebook or whatever, so someone goes there and claims the FTF... after a year or so the cache B that was blocking the listing in Geocaching.com website is archived so I resubmit the cache and it is listed in Geocaching.com.

 

So the FTF goes to? The FTF on Geocaching.com goes to the guy that first discovered it a year ago!!!!

 

Come on, can´t you see you are using the rules/guidelines/indications as you please. Sometimes you follow Groundspeak, others you follow another site, but the "results" are always in Geocaching.com website because is the biggest and most important in the geocaching game.

 

It´s like using a law of any country in the world and saying: "But I am a world citizen so I can choose whatever country I want to be judge at..."

 

Can´t you see you are mixing 2 different things, about the same game, but use them both in the same website because it´s where you get your numbers and you can brag about it? <_<

 

.....What if.....the International Space Station lands on Earth. You're the first one there and sign the log for the cache on it before any other Earthlings get there. Do you get the FTF? After all, it wasn't really legal up there hurtling around the earth, and you were the first to find it once it became legal. The FTFOE (FTF On Earth)??..........

 

This thread has jumped the tracks and is now plummeting down the side of the bridge.

 

Unfortunately, the FTF game is one of the few aspects of geocaching where you actually compete with other players. To make matters worse, GS does not recognize FTFs and has no rules/policy/guidance about them. The bottom line is that it is still up to you to cache the way that you feel is correct, and to realize that you have no say on how others cache. Either you do not get that, or you really like to argue.

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Unfortunately, the FTF game is one of the few aspects of geocaching where you actually compete with other players. To make matters worse, GS does not recognize FTFs and has no rules/policy/guidance about them. The bottom line is that it is still up to you to cache the way that you feel is correct, and to realize that you have no say on how others cache. Either you do not get that, or you really like to argue.

 

Thank you!!!

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Just one remark, a traditional cache A has been placed inside the 0.1 miles mark of another traditional cache B and I published it in another listing, like my Facebook or whatever, so someone goes there and claims the FTF... after a year or so the cache B that was blocking the listing in Geocaching.com website is archived so I resubmit the cache and it is listed in Geocaching.com.

 

So the FTF goes to? The FTF on Geocaching.com goes to the guy that first discovered it a year ago!!!!

Sounds about right to me.

 

There's a series around here (15 traditional caches plus a bonus mystery/puzzle cache) that was originally placed as part of a birthday adventure for another geocacher. When the CO tried to list the series, some of the caches had issues. Rather than publish only part of the series, the CO waited until he could publish all of the caches together. More than a year later, the entire series was finally published.

 

The CO invited everyone to try for STF, and indeed, the original birthday adventure recipient is the FTF, more than a year before the caches were published on the geocaching.com site.

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Sorry, is it just me, but if the FTF side-game is played like this it starts to be a "who has more friends" game instead of what I feel is the goal: to be the First to Find a specific cache among all players?

 

But as "fishgeek" put it : "The bottom line is that it is still up to you to cache the way that you feel is correct, and to realize that you have no say on how others cache."

 

The First Post, and the goal of this topic, is because "Dogmeat*" asked for opinions because he felt, so I think, it wasn´t fair for him that someone, a friend of the CO, had the FTF on Geocaching.com website because the cache wasn´t yet published on geocaching.com website.

 

I pointed out my opinions and my vision of what the game is for me, how I play it. If I was him I would put {FTF} at the top of my post and explain why I did it. The CO could delete my log if he wanted but since the side-game FTF is not recognized by Groundspeak, so no reason to delete my log, my found would be undeleted and just gave more work to the Reviewers or Lackeys.

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I pointed out my opinions...

No, you did a lot more than that. You utilized this forum to express your views, (nothing wrong with that), then you pretended that some imaginary 'rules' supported your views. That's a fish of a whole other color.

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Sorry, is it just me, but if the FTF side-game is played like this it starts to be a "who has more friends" game instead of what I feel is the goal: to be the First to Find a specific cache among all players?

 

But as "fishgeek" put it : "The bottom line is that it is still up to you to cache the way that you feel is correct, and to realize that you have no say on how others cache."

 

The First Post, and the goal of this topic, is because "Dogmeat*" asked for opinions because he felt, so I think, it wasn´t fair for him that someone, a friend of the CO, had the FTF on Geocaching.com website because the cache wasn´t yet published on geocaching.com website.

 

I pointed out my opinions and my vision of what the game is for me, how I play it. If I was him I would put {FTF} at the top of my post and explain why I did it. The CO could delete my log if he wanted but since the side-game FTF is not recognized by Groundspeak, so no reason to delete my log, my found would be undeleted and just gave more work to the Reviewers or Lackeys.

 

That seems reasonable. FTF is a fact, not an award to be handed out, or some kind of prize. If people want to compete for it, that's great. Blowing this minor achievement greatly out of proportion is cheesy. Cheating to get FTF is even cheesier. Complaining about others FTF cheating because you didn't get it is the most cheese of all. Not every cache is virginal or untouched from the moment it is published, nor does the FTF get to be the only one to fertilize it.

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As someone put it FTF is a "side-game" of geocaching, even if it is not recognized by Groundspeak it is by most of geocachers, we will see what the future holds...

 

This Topic is about if it is ok or not to claim a FTF before being published but now it has turned if physical logs on any cache prior to the publication date should or shouldn´t be recognized in the Geocaching.com Website. For me there are 2 statements here:

 

1) If the FTF side-game is important for some, and not important for others and it is not recognized by the Geocaching.com guidelines then, and answering to the first post, it really doesn´t matter if I write or not the FTF (First To Find), the FTFAP (after publicaction), the FTFNL (new log), the FTFAM (after maintenance) or the FTFAFTF (FTF After FTF) also called STF (Second To Find). It is for you and for you, only since the game is not competitive and no one really cares about this. This is my hypocrite and sarcastic version.

:laughing:

 

This reminds me of a cache I found somewhere in Washington that was a poke at the FTF game. The loggers would "all be FTF" and everyone put in their own version of "FTF" in their log.

 

I think mine was something like "First to find after walking through the mud in the rain on a Thursday" or something rediculous like that.

 

You see...the FTF game is a side game. It isn't official. If you play it one way (which it sounds like you do...) not everyone else plays that way.

 

If you want to be FTF after publcation and only call FTF that type of find, go ahead. Not everyone else will agree with you, and that's just fine...even if it isn't fine with you.

 

And this thread is yet another example of why Groundspeak isn't in the business of having rules or guidelines for a side-game that is played so differently by so many different people. If you get a rise out of being the FTF in your area, great. That's all about you and the others you feel you are competing against or with in your area. But, it's like the Sharks and Jets out there, man. Cross into someone else's territory, and they dance a little different from you and you might face a knife-wielding dance-off for playing your way on their turf. But, in this case, Groundspeak is not Office Krupke...this story has no cops! <cue jazz hands and split leaps>

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The First Post, and the goal of this topic, is because "Dogmeat*" asked for opinions because he felt, so I think, it wasn´t fair for him that someone, a friend of the CO, had the FTF on Geocaching.com website because the cache wasn´t yet published on geocaching.com website.

 

I pointed out my opinions and my vision of what the game is for me, how I play it. If I was him I would put {FTF} at the top of my post and explain why I did it. The CO could delete my log if he wanted but since the side-game FTF is not recognized by Groundspeak, so no reason to delete my log, my found would be undeleted and just gave more work to the Reviewers or Lackeys.

 

Exactly. Consider it, for your own profile, an ftf.

At worst, the CO doesn't accept it; so you change your find log to not mention ftf, but nothing can stop you from adding it to your ftf bookmark list, or telling your stats generator to consider it an ftf cache. Big woop.

Forcing others to abide by your definition of a definitionless and unenforced concept is lunacy :P

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You see...the FTF game is a side game. It isn't official. If you play it one way (which it sounds like you do...) not everyone else plays that way.

 

(...)

 

And this thread is yet another example of why Groundspeak isn't in the business of having rules or guidelines for a side-game that is played so differently by so many different people.

 

What is official then? Because nothing is Official then, you can log a find even you haven´t found it. You can place a cache and say you find it. You can co with the CO and say you found it. Because, even tho a cache as been archived by Groundspeak you can still log a found (in caches not locked).

 

Hoooooo...but wait, why would Groundspeak lock a cache if it is still part of the game? Why did Groundspeak locked almost all virtual caches that are archived?

 

If it was like most of you are saying, then Geocaching.com is just a place where you can show to yourself or to others that you have been in several places (or wish you´ve been in couching logs) searching for boxes that another person hide it. But it is not... Groundspeak and Geocaching.com website make rules for publishing caches according to what they feel is best for the game.

 

Don´t you get it? Or maybe it´s me that doesn´t get it! :blink:

 

I liked it when I read someone saying "for the purists...", maybe I´m just a purist wannabe.

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You see...the FTF game is a side game. It isn't official. If you play it one way (which it sounds like you do...) not everyone else plays that way.

 

(...)

 

And this thread is yet another example of why Groundspeak isn't in the business of having rules or guidelines for a side-game that is played so differently by so many different people.

 

What is official then? Because nothing is Official then, you can log a find even you haven´t found it. You can place a cache and say you find it. You can co with the CO and say you found it. Because, even tho a cache as been archived by Groundspeak you can still log a found (in caches not locked).

 

Hoooooo...but wait, why would Groundspeak lock a cache if it is still part of the game? Why did Groundspeak locked almost all virtual caches that are archived?

 

I don't know if answering is a feeding, or actually helpful...

 

Here goes, and the reply will tell me everything I need to know:

 

The game of geocaching has been loosely adopted by Groundspeak Inc. and a listing service was created at Geocaching.com back in the year 2000. The game of geocaching (lower "g") was started after GPS Selective Availability was turned off, allowing consumer-level GPS units to have a huge improvement in accuracy. Some people started to talk about how accurate their GPS units would become, and a fun test, of sorts, was created. Dave Ulmer decided to place a container in the woods outside of Portland, Oregon, post the coordinates for the container online, and invited others to look for it.

 

A great success! Someone found it, and proved that accuracy was better, and a game could be played where people hide containers and have people find them. Wahoo! Caches started out with containers, logbooks (not unlike a summit register), and some fun items to trade. The game most certainly had races to see who could get there first, and still does to this day.

 

When geocaching was "formalized" and listing services hosted by Groundspeak, there were, and continue to be, other sites hosting geocache locations online for people to seek. Geocaching became Geocaching (as in Geocaching.com, big "G"), and the Geocaching.com site became the most visited and comprehensive hosting service for the game. Cache types were developed, and guidelines were hammered out on these very forums for the first handful of years. (You can still search here for some of the old, very relevant discussions about cache types, log types, use of logs, etc. Very interesting stuff, and fun to read. History is good to know when taking on this game and how it is played on this website.) The guidelines for the game hosted by Geocaching.com were "published" online, and are updated here and there still to this day.

 

The main tennent for the game is still the same: Hide a cache, record its coordinates, publish it online, someone seeks it, finds it, signs the logbook, and then logs their find online to talk about their experience. When the game was "new", many people took the time to talk about the hike, the scenery, the cache, the fun they had seeking, and more. As the game grew, people had fun placing fun prizes for people to trade--and some also started to place items for the first person there to keep for themselves as a special prize for finding what was, at that time, a new and exciting test of emerging gameplay technology. It may have been a gift card, a small piece of art, an unactivated trackable item, etc.

 

The guidelines remain essentially the same, yet one thing has never been entered into the guidelines on Geocaching.com/Groundspeak's sites: "First-to-find" guidelines. That side-game developed out of the funloving and creative minds of people playing the game and paying it forward with their generosity. As more and more people came to the game, the race was on within moments of publication, and many had fun challenging others to "beat them to it if they could". As with any side-bet or lighthearted competition, there are variations on ability, skill, and involvement. Some took it very seriously, others dabbled in it, and others just didn't care. Those same camps exist today, 14 years later.

 

The guidelines as posted for guiding the gameplay and publication of Geocaches on Geocaching.com are "official". They are the way we all agree to play the game when we sign up for an account, or click the "I have read the..." checkboxes when we publish caches. If we ignore the guidelines, logs are deleted, caches are not published, listings are archived, and more. That much is enforcable on this website, and for all listings and accounts under the Geocaching.com/Groundspeak umbrella.

 

Because this game is rooted in 14 years of history, there are certain ways the game is played. Owners are able to delete logs--liek if the logbook is not signed. So if you decide that actually finding a cache or not signing a log is ok because you think the guidelines and owner responsibilities are not "official", then you are up for a surprise when your logs are deleted, and you suddenly find yourself on the outs with the Geocaching.com community for repeatedly logging armchair or 'bogus' logs.

 

Essentially, this is herd mentality. If you don't follow the guidelines that have been created and managed (mostly) by the community input, you won't find yourself enjoying playing the game here at Geocaching.com, or others enjoying that you're playing in their community. That's because deleting improper logs is the responsibility of listing owners, and is backed by "common practice" over the last 14 years of how this game is played. That is what separates "FTF" from bogus logs and archived caches.

 

Geocaching.com does not own the listings or geocaches themselves, but they do have the right to archive listings that no longer meet the guidelines or cache types hosted by this site. If an owner no longer manages their listing--as is set out in the Terms of Use and Guidelines--then their caches can and will be archived. That is why Virtuals are now archived--the owners are no longer managing the listing, the cache type is no longer publishable, and users can--and have--abused the logging of these caches because they are fully aware that an owner will not delete their bogus log. The same goes for archived caches; however an active owner will delete a bogus log of their archived cache if they decide to do so. Groundspeak can also lock any archived cache as requested or seen fit according to the terms of use.

 

If it was like most of you are saying, then Geocaching.com is just a place where you can show to yourself or to others that you have been in several places (or wish you´ve been in couching logs) searching for boxes that another person hide it. But it is not... Groundspeak and Geocaching.com website make rules for publishing caches according to what they feel is best for the game.

 

Don´t you get it? Or maybe it´s me that doesn´t get it! :blink:

 

I liked it when I read someone saying "for the purists...", maybe I´m just a purist wannabe.

 

Geocaching.com is both of those things. A place that hosts record of the Geocaches you have found, and a host of the listings that are published if they meet guidelines for listing and existence posted by Geocaching.com and Groundspeak. Play by the "rules", or play elsewhere.

 

As there is no guideline outlining when someone can or cannot claim a "FTF", it is not an official Geocaching.com activity. They may talk about it on the blog or in videos, but that's just because it has been a part of the Geocaching lexicon for years. They can talk all they want, but they don't run the FTF show.

 

That side-game is, as we've said, played differently by different people. So long as you're playing the game here at Geocaching.com, you have be be ready to be ok that others play that side-game differently than you do. Sharks and Jets, man. I do think that it is you that doesn't "get it". Either that or you're trolling us. Your replies will tell us that answer, I think.

 

There are no "purists" or "puritans" of the FTF game, because anyone can claim that they way they play that side-game is the "way" it should be played. True "FTF" puritanical idealism would stay at the root of the phrase: "First to find". If you found it first, it doesn't matter if it was before or after publication. Once that cache is hidden, it can be found by anyone. And if nobody else but the hider has been to that site and found the cache yet, they are first.

 

Now, if your gang of Sharks says that FTF only happens after publication, that's great. Just know that there are Jets out there that think a FTF can happen before publication. And then there's other gangs out there who dance differently than those two gangs...because there is no "official" way to play this side game.

Edited by NeverSummer

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There are no "purists" or "puritans" of the FTF game, because anyone can claim that they way they play that side-game is the "way" it should be played.

Yup, this really clears it up... Thanks for the explanation!

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You see...the FTF game is a side game. It isn't official. If you play it one way (which it sounds like you do...) not everyone else plays that way.

 

(...)

 

And this thread is yet another example of why Groundspeak isn't in the business of having rules or guidelines for a side-game that is played so differently by so many different people.

 

What is official then? Because nothing is Official then, you can log a find even you haven´t found it. You can place a cache and say you find it. You can co with the CO and say you found it. Because, even tho a cache as been archived by Groundspeak you can still log a found (in caches not locked).

 

Hoooooo...but wait, why would Groundspeak lock a cache if it is still part of the game? Why did Groundspeak locked almost all virtual caches that are archived?

 

I don't know if answering is a feeding, or actually helpful...

 

Here goes, and the reply will tell me everything I need to know:

 

The game of geocaching has been loosely adopted by Groundspeak Inc. and a listing service was created at Geocaching.com back in the year 2000. The game of geocaching (lower "g") was started after GPS Selective Availability was turned off, allowing consumer-level GPS units to have a huge improvement in accuracy. Some people started to talk about how accurate their GPS units would become, and a fun test, of sorts, was created. Dave Ulmer decided to place a container in the woods outside of Portland, Oregon, post the coordinates for the container online, and invited others to look for it.

 

A great success! Someone found it, and proved that accuracy was better, and a game could be played where people hide containers and have people find them. Wahoo! Caches started out with containers, logbooks (not unlike a summit register), and some fun items to trade. The game most certainly had races to see who could get there first, and still does to this day.

 

When geocaching was "formalized" and listing services hosted by Groundspeak, there were, and continue to be, other sites hosting geocache locations online for people to seek. Geocaching became Geocaching (as in Geocaching.com, big "G"), and the Geocaching.com site became the most visited and comprehensive hosting service for the game. Cache types were developed, and guidelines were hammered out on these very forums for the first handful of years. (You can still search here for some of the old, very relevant discussions about cache types, log types, use of logs, etc. Very interesting stuff, and fun to read. History is good to know when taking on this game and how it is played on this website.) The guidelines for the game hosted by Geocaching.com were "published" online, and are updated here and there still to this day.

 

The main tennent for the game is still the same: Hide a cache, record its coordinates, publish it online, someone seeks it, finds it, signs the logbook, and then logs their find online to talk about their experience. When the game was "new", many people took the time to talk about the hike, the scenery, the cache, the fun they had seeking, and more. As the game grew, people had fun placing fun prizes for people to trade--and some also started to place items for the first person there to keep for themselves as a special prize for finding what was, at that time, a new and exciting test of emerging gameplay technology. It may have been a gift card, a small piece of art, an unactivated trackable item, etc.

 

The guidelines remain essentially the same, yet one thing has never been entered into the guidelines on Geocaching.com/Groundspeak's sites: "First-to-find" guidelines. That side-game developed out of the funloving and creative minds of people playing the game and paying it forward with their generosity. As more and more people came to the game, the race was on within moments of publication, and many had fun challenging others to "beat them to it if they could". As with any side-bet or lighthearted competition, there are variations on ability, skill, and involvement. Some took it very seriously, others dabbled in it, and others just didn't care. Those same camps exist today, 14 years later.

 

The guidelines as posted for guiding the gameplay and publication of Geocaches on Geocaching.com are "official". They are the way we all agree to play the game when we sign up for an account, or click the "I have read the..." checkboxes when we publish caches. If we ignore the guidelines, logs are deleted, caches are not published, listings are archived, and more. That much is enforcable on this website, and for all listings and accounts under the Geocaching.com/Groundspeak umbrella.

 

Because this game is rooted in 14 years of history, there are certain ways the game is played. Owners are able to delete logs--liek if the logbook is not signed. So if you decide that actually finding a cache or not signing a log is ok because you think the guidelines and owner responsibilities are not "official", then you are up for a surprise when your logs are deleted, and you suddenly find yourself on the outs with the Geocaching.com community for repeatedly logging armchair or 'bogus' logs.

 

Essentially, this is herd mentality. If you don't follow the guidelines that have been created and managed (mostly) by the community input, you won't find yourself enjoying playing the game here at Geocaching.com, or others enjoying that you're playing in their community. That's because deleting improper logs is the responsibility of listing owners, and is backed by "common practice" over the last 14 years of how this game is played. That is what separates "FTF" from bogus logs and archived caches.

 

Geocaching.com does not own the listings or geocaches themselves, but they do have the right to archive listings that no longer meet the guidelines or cache types hosted by this site. If an owner no longer manages their listing--as is set out in the Terms of Use and Guidelines--then their caches can and will be archived. That is why Virtuals are now archived--the owners are no longer managing the listing, the cache type is no longer publishable, and users can--and have--abused the logging of these caches because they are fully aware that an owner will not delete their bogus log. The same goes for archived caches; however an active owner will delete a bogus log of their archived cache if they decide to do so. Groundspeak can also lock any archived cache as requested or seen fit according to the terms of use.

 

If it was like most of you are saying, then Geocaching.com is just a place where you can show to yourself or to others that you have been in several places (or wish you´ve been in couching logs) searching for boxes that another person hide it. But it is not... Groundspeak and Geocaching.com website make rules for publishing caches according to what they feel is best for the game.

 

Don´t you get it? Or maybe it´s me that doesn´t get it! :blink:

 

I liked it when I read someone saying "for the purists...", maybe I´m just a purist wannabe.

 

Geocaching.com is both of those things. A place that hosts record of the Geocaches you have found, and a host of the listings that are published if they meet guidelines for listing and existence posted by Geocaching.com and Groundspeak. Play by the "rules", or play elsewhere.

 

As there is no guideline outlining when someone can or cannot claim a "FTF", it is not an official Geocaching.com activity. They may talk about it on the blog or in videos, but that's just because it has been a part of the Geocaching lexicon for years. They can talk all they want, but they don't run the FTF show.

 

That side-game is, as we've said, played differently by different people. So long as you're playing the game here at Geocaching.com, you have be be ready to be ok that others play that side-game differently than you do. Sharks and Jets, man. I do think that it is you that doesn't "get it". Either that or you're trolling us. Your replies will tell us that answer, I think.

 

There are no "purists" or "puritans" of the FTF game, because anyone can claim that they way they play that side-game is the "way" it should be played. True "FTF" puritanical idealism would stay at the root of the phrase: "First to find". If you found it first, it doesn't matter if it was before or after publication. Once that cache is hidden, it can be found by anyone. And if nobody else but the hider has been to that site and found the cache yet, they are first.

 

Now, if your gang of Sharks says that FTF only happens after publication, that's great. Just know that there are Jets out there that think a FTF can happen before publication. And then there's other gangs out there who dance differently than those two gangs...because there is no "official" way to play this side game.

Why does my post say NeverSummer?

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Why does my post say NeverSummer?

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

 

Some days we are like-minded...or ringbone.

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Not sure why you think archived caches are "off the game". Many people enjoy the side games of finding, and subsequently logging online, archived caches that have not been cleaned up.

 

Yup. I've lost interest in being first to find. Last to find takes more research and is more of a challenge.

 

Being last to find is actually very easy. But you might have a lot of really angry cache owners when they find out you walked off with their cache. :lol:

 

Nice. It's like the opposite of throw-down caching. (Throw-up caching?)

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Being last to find is actually very easy. But you might have a lot of really angry cache owners when they find out you walked off with their cache. :lol:

 

Nice. It's like the opposite of throw-down caching. (Throw-up caching?)

 

Nah, hopefully that never happens. Cuz ick.

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Well I hid a cache in 2012 and haven't listed it yet due to problems with the HTML associated with the puzzle. I've put off fixing it, but checked on it recently and noticed that a drainage pipe was installed in the green acres area from the adjoining lot which caused the area to be heavily used. As a result, someone signed the log using the initials "TW" and hid the ammo can back. Subsequently I am moving it a few hundred feet. Should I leave TW in the log, or tear it out? Technically he was FTF, but a muggle. :D

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Well I hid a cache in 2012 and haven't listed it yet due to problems with the HTML associated with the puzzle. I've put off fixing it, but checked on it recently and noticed that a drainage pipe was installed in the green acres area from the adjoining lot which caused the area to be heavily used. As a result, someone signed the log using the initials "TW" and hid the ammo can back. Subsequently I am moving it a few hundred feet. Should I leave TW in the log, or tear it out? Technically he was FTF, but a muggle. :D

 

Nice point...what if, in 10 years time he logs in Geocaching.com and claims the FTF? BUSTED!!!!! Even if you tear the log, the FTF is there, TW!!! :lol:

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Well I hid a cache in 2012 and haven't listed it yet due to problems with the HTML associated with the puzzle. I've put off fixing it, but checked on it recently and noticed that a drainage pipe was installed in the green acres area from the adjoining lot which caused the area to be heavily used. As a result, someone signed the log using the initials "TW" and hid the ammo can back. Subsequently I am moving it a few hundred feet. Should I leave TW in the log, or tear it out? Technically he was FTF, but a muggle. :D

 

Nice point...what if, in 10 years time he logs in Geocaching.com and claims the FTF? BUSTED!!!!! Even if you tear the log, the FTF is there, TW!!! :lol:

And very well he can. And someone else might as well. And because there are no "points" from this website for FTF, I award 10 points to Griffindor and 100 to that person "TW".

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A quick side bar...do you place a cache before reviewer approval or after?

 

Most before but some after, found that out the hard way.

 

FTF is simple, only the first person to find the cache is the FTF.

 

The FTF game is more complex.

As a result there are some unwritten rules that may vary area to area.

 

Here if you are with the CO when they place a cache it is bad form to claim the FTF. It is OK to claim FTF if you find a cache before publication. It is ok to release a cache to to people to find before it is published. IE: caches for events or tribute.

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Here if you are with the CO when they place a cache it is bad form to claim the FTF. It is OK to claim FTF if you find a cache before publication. It is ok to release a cache to to people to find before it is published. IE: caches for events or tribute.

Says who? I think it was clear that the FTF side-game can be played as you want.

 

- I see people hiding with the CO and signing an FTF.

- I see people not leaving the car in the parking lot and the co-players signing the FTF log for both players.

- I see CO hiding caches with FTF already signed in the logbook.

- I see people logging the FTF, in an anterior date (1 week before) but after the CO checks the cache and tells it is lost so he replaced it. The CO has no way to confirm if it is true or not.

 

I´ve already, extensively, explained how I play the FTF side-game, but the fact is there are no rules for the FTF game, you make your own rules! B)

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Here if you are with the CO when they place a cache it is bad form to claim the FTF. It is OK to claim FTF if you find a cache before publication. It is ok to release a cache to to people to find before it is published. IE: caches for events or tribute.

Says who? I think it was clear that the FTF side-game can be played as you want.

 

- I see people hiding with the CO and signing an FTF.

- I see people not leaving the car in the parking lot and the co-players signing the FTF log for both players.

- I see CO hiding caches with FTF already signed in the logbook.

- I see people logging the FTF, in an anterior date (1 week before) but after the CO checks the cache and tells it is lost so he replaced it. The CO has no way to confirm if it is true or not.

 

I´ve already, extensively, explained how I play the FTF side-game, but the fact is there are no rules for the FTF game, you make your own rules! B)

 

Where I live it is common practice to not claim FTF if you are with the CO. Doesn't mean everyone will play that way but most do.

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A quick side bar...do you place a cache before reviewer approval or after?

You place the cache before you submit it. Always. If you wait until the reviewer approves it, you're putting yourself into an FTF race to get there to place the cache before someone else gets there to look for it. In my area, you'd almost certainly lose, and that would make someone very angry.

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Yes, it is very bad form to place the cache physically after the reviewer approves (and publishes) the listing. The expectation is that if it is published, it is ready to be found. It should not be placed after the reviewer publishes the listing.

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A quick side bar...do you place a cache before reviewer approval or after?

You place the cache before you submit it. Always. If you wait until the reviewer approves it, you're putting yourself into an FTF race to get there to place the cache before someone else gets there to look for it. In my area, you'd almost certainly lose, and that would make someone very angry.

 

Just to be clear, you can run through an idea with your reviewer and get approval before placing it, but the cache should be in place and ready to go before you submit it for publication.

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