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MisterE250

Best GPS for geocaching?

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Thanks for the very detailed reply's, I have a lot better handle on this now and probably won't rush out and look for a GPS until I get more into the hobby. The battery issue I can tell already will become an issue quickly with using the smartphone however, so at some point I will end up picking up a GPS.

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The past few times I've been out caching I've been comparing my Samsung Galaxy S2 to my Garmin eTrex 30. When it comes to easy park and grab caches they perform pretty similarly. You don't need a sophisticated, highly accurate GPS to navigate a parking lot or sidewalk to find micros. Now on the trail or in the woods, my eTrex kicks my smartphones butt. I get a solid stable lock on the satellites, the compass doesn't bounce around and it gets far better accuracy. Today in the woods under deep cover I was looking for a cache comparing the two and my eTrex said it was 27 feet away with 9 feet of accuracy and my smartphone said it was 40 feet away in a different direction with 29 feet of accuracy. The points on the map were even in completely different places. That's a pretty big difference. Not to mention most smartphones are more delicate than baby birds. I could probably kick my eTrex through the dirt on the way to the next cache, pick it up and it would be right on target.

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I have a decent GPS (handheld) and it works pretty good. The GPS however is nowhere near as easy to use and does not update or track as fast as my smartphone and I own a cheap one.

 

My GPS will get me 15-20 feet from GZ..the smartphone 1-5 feet always.

Agreed that new, high-end smartphones are great, & that they have a shorter learning curve than dedicated gpsrs.

 

What I've really wondered - and asked about at least twice in the forums - is whether anyone has done a side-by-side comparison of a good smartphone and a good gpsr. This test would not be for accuracy - I already know a good, recent smartphone is excellent for accuracy. My question is whether the gpsr has a noticeably better antenna & reception in dense tree cover. It seems that might be an advantage - but I keep hearing complaints of "bounce" from gpsr owners, just as from smartphone users. But is it noticeably less bounce? Guess I may need to do the test myself sometime.

 

Oops - posted my reply to an earlier post before seeing the immediately preceding post! Good info!

Edited by wmpastor

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(disclaimer: I hate just using the term "smartphone" in these discussions - FAR to vague; and when you read someone comparing a brand smartphone to a GPS, don't presuming it applies to all smartphones, whether a good or bad experience)

 

My field testing comparison of iPhone 4S with dedicated GPSrs is through group caching. And more often than not, the vast majority of people still paying attention to their GPS near GZ (forest setting) are calling out their readings - and they're all over the place. 5m here, 12m there, 1m way over there... (and sometimes I'm standing on top of the cache, watching for a few seconds :P ) People need to realize that their device accuracy - as mentioned earlier - is effectively irrelevant when within 10-30 feet or so. Too many factors determining whether the cache is actually at the location your personal GPS is telling you is GZ, primarily the unknowable factor - the owner's GPS accuracy (and skill).

 

Put the GPS down when you believe you're in the right area, and search (if the hide hasn't already become obvious).

 

Personally, I hate hunting by distance/bearing. I use the imagery most of the time as it's quicker to see and use, doesn't require so much active battery use, and will get you about as close to GZ as an average gps (taking into account imagery misalignment and whatnot). Map will show you first where to head - then ideally no more gps use until you reach near gz. If your senses are honed, you may even spot it before needing it again. But when near, sometimes I'll watch my location pin in relation to the cache pin - regardless of accuracy - and see how the phone visually interprets its GPS readings; whether it hovers or circles or stops, and how large the accuracy bubble is. Visual averaging :)

 

Even all that said, the 4S accuracy tends to be right up there with my friends' gpsrs, though more often a little slower (and position guessing after a quick hike can be annoying as you have to wait for it to realize you've stopped moving :P but I think some GPSs do that too)

 

Anyhow. I've upgraded to the iPhone 5S now, and I'm waiting for this weekend when I'm doing a day caching trip with friends, so I can test out its speed and accuracy in the field. Very much looking forward to it :)

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....

What I've really wondered - and asked about at least twice in the forums - is whether anyone has done a side-by-side comparison of a good smartphone and a good gpsr.

....

I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 and Garmin eTrex 30. eTrex has GLONASS support and I don't think the GS3 does. When taking averaged readings while placing a cache I will typically get no more than .001 difference between the two. The Garmin is more stable in trees and the compass is not as easily bothered by things like power lines nearby. There have been times where the eTrex said the cache was 15 feet north and the GS3 said it was 20 feet southwest. Once in a while the phone is right. Most of the time the eTrex is more accurate. Most of the time they both pretty much say the same thing.

 

I always take both - they complement each other in so many ways. Sat view, online searching and instant logging with the phone. I think it's pretty cool that a trackable status is immediately updated, not hours or a day later when I get on the computer. Turn by turn directions from home to the cache area parking is cool, too. Rugged, long battery life and usually a little more accurate guidance with the Garmin.

 

Which is better? Neither. Both. ;-)

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The Meridian series can give you accuracies similar to "modern" GPS units. There is an excellent forum on Yahoo that has a lot of information on getting a Meridian up-dated. It would definitely be a good backup or an upgrade for your daughter. I own a Merigold and only retired it to get a color map.

 

Also, I have an old Magellan Meridian Color, how would the accuracy be on that dinosaur compared to my S3 and the Geomate Jr? (I just found it in a drawer tonight, I had forgotten I even had it). I will attempt to answer that question myself next time I get a chance to go out hunting, but I figured there are enough GPS experts on here someone might be able to keep me from wasting my time with it if it is ancient technology compared to the phone app.

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I definitely am sold on the DeLorme PN-60. It's never failed to bring me within 2-3 feet of the cache, even in extremely cloudy conditions or under heavy tree cover. My only complaint is that battery life is nowhere near what the specs say but it's a small price to pay for its amazing accuracy.

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I definitely am sold on the DeLorme PN-60. It's never failed to bring me within 2-3 feet of the cache, even in extremely cloudy conditions or under heavy tree cover. My only complaint is that battery life is nowhere near what the specs say but it's a small price to pay for its amazing accuracy.

 

how to get the caches you are looking for - pocket query onto the Delorme pn-60, thanks

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Whatever the smartphones uses it tracks better and is much more accurate than my GPS. I use it in urban areas and for short searches in the woods. I also bring it with me when I use the GPS only and have search issues to see how close I really am to the cache. Many (most) times the GPS is off sometimes... way off.

 

The other day I had a park and grab on a guardrail. The were no hints and and really no discription. I jumped out of my truck when my GPS showed me I was at GZ.

This was a long gaurdrail mind you (couple hundred feet) and I searched but no cache. After a little while I'm like... really?

So I used my cell phone app and found I was 35-40-30 feet away from where the tiny micro tube with magnet was tucked away.

 

I like the GPS better since its rugged long battery life and its waterproof but its not as easy to use and is off track most times. I will continue to use both and hope to get my skills with a GPS better.

 

On rare occasions, my Samsung Galaxy S3 has been more accurate than my GPS/GLONASS/WAAS enabled eTrex 30. Just like you mentioned above. Very rare, though. Most of the time the the Garmin is more accurate. Although in clear signal areas and putting them side by side, I have rarely seen more than .001 difference between them after settling. That's something like a max of 6 feet, I think. In really heavy tree cover it can take the Galaxy a lot longer to acquire signal. I've never had it fail to do so, but the eTrex grabs and holds on to the signal much faster. I have heard that some of the newest smartphones have GLONASS support now. Wikipedia claims there are quite a few.

 

I use my smartphone for backup, getting an alternate location confirmation when I can't find a cache, Live searching, and every once in a while when something new shows up in a Live search that isn't in the Garmin, I use an OTG cable to export info downloaded on the phone and send it to the eTrex while I'm in the field. Plus I can log field notes or publish logs directly from the field. I lost a paper notebook once, with all my clues and coordinates for a series. Never again. That goes directly into cache notes or Evernote while I'm in the field.

 

I always use both for anything other than urban caching.

The Samsung Galaxy S3 also uses Glonass satellites as do many other phones nowadays, including my Nokia Lumia. I only use my Nokia mostly as a phone. We go caching using Etrex 10 and 20. Very accurate, tough and easy to use and HUGE battery life 20+ hours.

There really is no better or worse device. It comes down to what you personally prefer.

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The smartphone uses cell tower triangulation while the GPS uses satellite triangulation.
Actually, no. The smartphone can use cell tower triangulation (and wifi network locations) in addition to using real GPS satellite triangulation. Unless you've turned off the GPS antenna, which some people do to conserve battery life.

With iPhones especially, a trick conserve power while still caching with gps is not airplane mode. That turns off GPS as well. Unfortunately there's no way to automatically switch to gps only. The trick is to manually turn off all data and cell connectivity. The GPS will remain active. Just make sure you've cached maps and downloaded everything you want before you turn data off :) This is how you can still use your phone as a gps in areas with zero cell reception, without wasting batteries trying to locate a signal.

 

Then of course you can turn off gps location services for individual apps or globally if you want.

 

I'm not actually sure if turning off all cell features and leaving GPS will leave the "A" of A-GPS still active (if the phone will still get its boost from cell tower triangulation) or if the phone really does become a GPS-receiver-only.

 

But yes, iPhone 3GS and up have real GPS satellite reception, boosted by cell tower triangulation.

(I can't speak for other high-end smartphones though; but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more friendly settings to allow the same flexibility in gps use)

I have a iphone but the battery goes dead way to fast , I also have a Magellan works awesome but im visual impaired so very hard to see , Do you know if I can use my TomTom GPS from my truck to geocache? If so how does that work?

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I also have a Magellan works awesome but im visual impaired so very hard to see , Do you know if I can use my TomTom GPS from my truck to geocache? If so how does that work?

 

Depends. Can you enter coordinates? And will it let you navigate off-road? Battery life of an automotive GPS will not be as good as that of a handheld. An auto GPS is also not as rugged as a handheld. But it does offer a bigger screen.

 

Depending what Magellan you have, there might be a handheld GPS with a bigger screen. Some hunters and anglers used to favor Lowrance for that reason. The Garmin Montana has a big screen. The Garmin Oregon 6xx models let you set the type size on map items.

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I have a iphone but the battery goes dead way to fast

 

Can you define "way too fast"? Minutes? Hours? Hours while actively using GPS to navigate on screen? Just shorter than your GPSr's life?

Try some of the tips I mentioned above for conserving battery. Or invest in an external AA battery pack (they can be cheap ~$20) for the smartphone and use rechargables. :)

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I have a iphone but the battery goes dead way to fast

 

Can you define "way too fast"? Minutes? Hours? Hours while actively using GPS to navigate on screen? Just shorter than your GPSr's life?

Try some of the tips I mentioned above for conserving battery. Or invest in an external AA battery pack (they can be cheap ~$20) for the smartphone and use rechargables. :)

 

For me "way too fast" means about 4-5 hours of constant use. That's about how long my smart phone lasts if I'm using it for geocaching. Normal use it lasts a day and a half.

 

Even though my PN40 has crappy battery life, I can slip in a pair of rechargeables in a few secs and I'm back in business. I have an external battery pack for my cell, but if the phone is dead I need to keep it hooked up and then I'm carrying my phone and charger. Kind of awkward.

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For me "way too fast" means about 4-5 hours of constant use. That's about how long my smart phone lasts if I'm using it for geocaching. Normal use it lasts a day and a half.

 

Even though my PN40 has crappy battery life, I can slip in a pair of rechargeables in a few secs and I'm back in business. I have an external battery pack for my cell, but if the phone is dead I need to keep it hooked up and then I'm carrying my phone and charger. Kind of awkward.

 

heh, well don't let it die completely :)

If I'm out all day, I have my AA pack, and use battery conservatively - turn off the GPS when not used (I'm not staring at the screen the entire day, let alone between caches when I know where to go already). When my battery gets to ~10% or a little above, I plug it in with fresh rechargeables. I had a pack that could provide 2 full charges off 4 AA's. Unfortunately last I checked that product doesn't seem to be available any more (owner went awol it seemed :blink:). But I have another one that does a full charge on 4AA. If necessary, that gives me enough for a full day caching on my 5S, if I'm not also doing other non-geocaching stuff (email checking, tweeting, games, etc :P)

 

I don't know what your phone's battery use is like, but if you can turn off gps when not needed, that saves a LOT of battery. Remember your phone is a multi-purpose device, not just a gps, so by default its battery will generally deplete faster. Some people don't like that; others plan around it :)

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To the OP....go to GPS City and buy a unit.

Want touch = Oregon 450 is $169

Buttons ( and my favorite ) = 62S is $199

 

Free shipping.....it won't get much better than this ever, esp. on the 62.

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I was getting gps units off craigslist for awhile. I picked up a Bushnell which is worthless because you can't download from this site and can't enter numbers. I got an etrex 30 that kept locking up after awhile even with a master reset. I had a csx which many people praise but I found it wasn't pulling in sattelites well in mild overhead cover. I bought the yellow basic etrex but it was too tedious entering coords.

 

Then I started researching. When with others I asked lots of questions. I searched for internet reviews and professional comparisons. I went to stores and looked them over (and found the salespeople in my area seem to know very little about these). I settled with the 62st (I see no reason to get the stc-camera- model). The paperles caching is wonderful. You download coords, descriptions and userlogs in a second. The antenna was rated in several comparisons as the best presently offered in a handheld. It's very durable and has great features. My only disappointment is one must plug it into a computer to delete caches. I think Garmin expects us to leave all caches in and just identify them as found, dnf, etc. I prefer to get rid of them as I find them to keep things from getting cluttered. I don't have the patience for using the gps to log found caches but it has this and many more features.

 

I'm convinced the 62 series is presently the best. Pick up a touchscreen and a 62, you'll see there's a big difference. The 62s aren't cheap, but it's much less frustrating than so many others.

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I also have the Oregon 450, great all around unit. I have used touch screen and joystick types and GREATLY prefer the touchscreen.

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To the OP....go to GPS City and buy a unit.

Want touch = Oregon 450 is $169

Buttons ( and my favorite ) = 62S is $199

 

Free shipping.....it won't get much better than this ever, esp. on the 62.

This sounds good, I have the Oregon 450 and love it, but I really like touchscreen units. Never used the 62, but have heard good things about it.

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I'm currently using my Samsung Galaxy 3 with c:geo for geocaching. I just started a few days ago, but I've done some research before I started. I would like to get more serious with this hobby and would probably like to do some geocaching while hiking. I found a lot of good information on these two pages but which features are key to look at in a GPS and how do those features effect the price? Also, if you buy a GPS unit today how many years of use can you get out of it?

 

Thanks!

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I also have the Oregon 450, great all around unit. I have used touch screen and joystick types and GREATLY prefer the touchscreen.

I have the eTrex 30 with the thumbstick. Whenever I'm entering a waypoint or stages to a multi, I wish I had a touchscreen model. I also use a phone for logging and sat view. In the winter, even with 'touch screen' gloves, I curse the touchscreen and wish the phone had a thumbstick too. So nice to be able to leave my gloves on and do everything with one hand. :-D

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@ DoverRamCachers:

Any mid- to upper-level of Garmin, Delorme or Magellan units.

 

Personal preference:

Touch-screen, buttons or joystick-- some prefer touch-screen, others prefer buttons, joysticks are +/-;

Electronic or Non-electronic compass -- one senses the magnetic field (and needs occasional re-adjustment), the other needs no adjustment but requires (your) movement to determine direction -- both function equally well;

Mapping -- Garmin and Magellan come with base maps only (except Garmin "t" models), Delorme comes with all of North America Topo maps (and they are road route-able).

 

Nice to have options:

Expandable memory (SD or microSD card) -- necessary for complicated mapping programs;

Route-able and topo maps -- available for Garmin, comes with Delorme, dunno about Magellan (probably).

 

Other:

Pay attention to loading/managing geocaches/waypoints (scan the forums) -- some Makes will overwrite PQ data with each upload, or require computer hook-up to delete such. Some units will delete individual/bulk caches w/o computer hook-up and will also load multiple (named) PQs (which can really be handy at times).

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I'm currently using my Samsung Galaxy 3 with c:geo for geocaching. I just started a few days ago, but I've done some research before I started. I would like to get more serious with this hobby and would probably like to do some geocaching while hiking. I found a lot of good information on these two pages but which features are key to look at in a GPS and how do those features effect the price? Also, if you buy a GPS unit today how many years of use can you get out of it?

 

Thanks!

I'd give yourself at least a month or two of more time caching with just your phone and occasionally a friend's unit (if you can) before shelling out the money for a unit that might end up collecting dust in half a year. This way you'll know if this is truly something you might be doing for awhile.

 

A lot of purchasing a GPS will come down to personal preference and as I've suggested, try to see if you can borrow a couple different types of units to use to see what you like and don't like. Unless you're a technology nerd and need to be on the cutting edge, any newer unit should last for at least 2 years at a minimum, longer if you take decent care of it (don't drop it continually, have a case and screen protector, etc...). My first unit, a 60 CSx, still works great and I use it occasionally to verify coords for a new hide. It's almost 4 years old from when I bought it and I suspect it will continue to keep on working for the next 4 years as well.

 

The more bells and whistles, the higher the cost. Things I've discovered - I've used a PN-60 for a bit (a friend's unit I borrowed) but found myself liking the Garmins better - again a personal preference as the PN-60 worked fine but I didn't find it as "easy" to use as I did the Garmin I first bought. I prefer touch screens over buttons. I like the larger screens, not because I have bad vision, but I just find it easier to use and see. I like being able to add maps (expandable memory - mSD card), specifically transparent trail overlays and OSM maps for areas I don't have coverage for on my 24K mSD cards. I like my 24K Topo maps, which I found online cheaper than Garmin sells them, as they're routable (will "tell" you turn either by a beep or, if you have a higher end unit, with spoken directions) and will provide more detail when out hiking than the standard 100K maps.

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I'm currently using my Samsung Galaxy 3 with c:geo for geocaching. I just started a few days ago, but I've done some research before I started. I would like to get more serious with this hobby and would probably like to do some geocaching while hiking. I found a lot of good information on these two pages but which features are key to look at in a GPS and how do those features effect the price? Also, if you buy a GPS unit today how many years of use can you get out of it?

 

Thanks!

I'd give yourself at least a month or two of more time caching with just your phone and occasionally a friend's unit (if you can) before shelling out the money for a unit that might end up collecting dust in half a year. This way you'll know if this is truly something you might be doing for awhile.

 

A lot of purchasing a GPS will come down to personal preference and as I've suggested, try to see if you can borrow a couple different types of units to use to see what you like and don't like. Unless you're a technology nerd and need to be on the cutting edge, any newer unit should last for at least 2 years at a minimum, longer if you take decent care of it (don't drop it continually, have a case and screen protector, etc...). My first unit, a 60 CSx, still works great and I use it occasionally to verify coords for a new hide. It's almost 4 years old from when I bought it and I suspect it will continue to keep on working for the next 4 years as well.

 

The more bells and whistles, the higher the cost. Things I've discovered - I've used a PN-60 for a bit (a friend's unit I borrowed) but found myself liking the Garmins better - again a personal preference as the PN-60 worked fine but I didn't find it as "easy" to use as I did the Garmin I first bought. I prefer touch screens over buttons. I like the larger screens, not because I have bad vision, but I just find it easier to use and see. I like being able to add maps (expandable memory - mSD card), specifically transparent trail overlays and OSM maps for areas I don't have coverage for on my 24K mSD cards. I like my 24K Topo maps, which I found online cheaper than Garmin sells them, as they're routable (will "tell" you turn either by a beep or, if you have a higher end unit, with spoken directions) and will provide more detail when out hiking than the standard 100K maps.

 

Thank you both for that detailed information, I appreciate it. For now I will take your advice Coach and continue to use my phone. My only concern is the little bit of geocaching I do now really kills my phones battery and data plan. I will have to say that my SGS 3 has done a decent job with the urban caching I've done since I've started. I just figured this is a hobby that no matter where I go I can always pick it up and find new caches. I know that I have a lot of homework to do on geocaching and learning all the new terminology but would it be possible to message you and ask questions on how to gps units, using software on my computer, etc, etc?

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You can buy an external AA battery pack for most any smartphone brand now, and that takes care of the battery issue, especially if you use rechargeables. Just carry around a couple of extra batteries when you go geocaching (even handheld owners do this; or should do this :P ) and turn off the GPS reception if you're not needing it to help prolong the phone's battery.

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I know that I have a lot of homework to do on geocaching and learning all the new terminology but would it be possible to message you and ask questions on how to gps units, using software on my computer, etc, etc?

 

Sure. No problem.

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I know that I have a lot of homework to do on geocaching and learning all the new terminology but would it be possible to message you and ask questions on how to gps units, using software on my computer, etc, etc?

 

Sure. No problem.

 

I had a question regarding GPS units. Is it best to buy the base unit whether it be the Oregon 450 or Extrex 20 and then buy specific maps for the unit? Can you get free maps on the internet and what is a 1:24k or 1:100K mean in terms of the maps you can buy/download?

 

Thanks!

 

Also, I compared two units that are the same price at gpscity.com (http://www.gpscity.com/compare/oreg450&etrex30) How do you decide which is better or are they essentially the same?

Edited by DoverRamCachers

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I know that I have a lot of homework to do on geocaching and learning all the new terminology but would it be possible to message you and ask questions on how to gps units, using software on my computer, etc, etc?

 

Sure. No problem.

 

I had a question regarding GPS units. Is it best to buy the base unit whether it be the Oregon 450 or Extrex 20 and then buy specific maps for the unit? Can you get free maps on the internet and what is a 1:24k or 1:100K mean in terms of the maps you can buy/download?

 

Thanks!

 

Also, I compared two units that are the same price at gpscity.com (http://www.gpscity.com/compare/oreg450&etrex30) How do you decide which is better or are they essentially the same?

 

One may or may not be better than the other. The question should be which is best for you. There's no way of knowing this unless you are able to try both before you buy. We use an Etrex 10 and Etrex 20. We both like them. They are, inexpensive, rugged, easy to use and very accurate. We bought them only because they are Garmin and we previously cached using a Garmin Nuvi, car GPS. We couldn't say if the Etrex 20 is better than the Oregon as we have never used one.

Unless you can borrow one, or both, to try it is just a matter of researching GPS reviews, studying thier features and deciding which would be best for you.

There are plenty of maps available for the Garmin. Our Etrex 20 came with SD cards with Garmin maps but we have also used free OSM, Open Street Maps, when caching in foreign countries and have had no problems.

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Hi,

 

One question from my side. I've been using iPhones (first iPhone4 now iPhone6) since I started geocaching a couple of years ago, and I'm extremely pleased with them. There are just two drawbacks:

 

- one is battery life (that you can always solve with an extra battery pack)

- the other one is that you can go to places where no data signal is available ... and then I'm lost.

 

In the near future I'll be travelling to countries where the phone doesn't work or to places where there's no signal, and for that I'd need a "normal" GPS.

 

Now, which GPS model would you recommend for a user that is "spoiled" by the ease of usage, touch screen, maps and so on of the iPhone app?

 

Thanks in advance

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- the other one is that you can go to places where no data signal is available ... and then I'm lost.

FYI, GPS still works without cell reception. You just need to preload your maps, either using an app that lets you download maps, or when any other map app just scroll around the area you'll be using at your preferred zoom level(s) so that those tiles are cached and usable when offline.

 

And, as of one of the most recent iOS updates you can also now continue using GPS while Airplane mode is on. You used to have to turn off every feature independently in order to keep GPS on since AIrplane mode also disabled gps. Not so any more.

 

Effectively, you can now properly 'test' how well your phone perform while having no cell reception by turning on airplane mode, and seeing if your GPS still works in whatever app you're using. As long as you're using a 4S or later, you'll be fine.

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- the other one is that you can go to places where no data signal is available ... and then I'm lost.

FYI, GPS still works without cell reception. You just need to preload your maps, either using an app that lets you download maps, or when any other map app just scroll around the area you'll be using at your preferred zoom level(s) so that those tiles are cached and usable when offline.

 

And, as of one of the most recent iOS updates you can also now continue using GPS while Airplane mode is on. You used to have to turn off every feature independently in order to keep GPS on since AIrplane mode also disabled gps. Not so any more.

 

Effectively, you can now properly 'test' how well your phone perform while having no cell reception by turning on airplane mode, and seeing if your GPS still works in whatever app you're using. As long as you're using a 4S or later, you'll be fine.

 

Hey, thanks! To be honest I had a couple of bad experiences but they were indeed with my old iPhone 4. I just tried what you said on my iPhone 6, and indeed, provided the maps had been already preloaded it's all fine :)

 

... and I thought I had found the perfect excuse to convince my wife that I need a Montana or something similar ... B)

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And, as of one of the most recent iOS updates you can also now continue using GPS while Airplane mode is on. You used to have to turn off every feature independently in order to keep GPS on since AIrplane mode also disabled gps. Not so any more.

 

I was not aware of this. It appears to have changed with iOS 8.3. Nice! I wont have to remember to turn airplane mode off after the plane lands in a foreign country.

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