FTF before publish?

[+Xistance]

Hi everyone,

 

Before i read someone say "search the forums": i already did, but most similar topics are slightly different.

 

The story:

I was hiding some caches yesterday in my neighbourhood, and when we were cleaning up (put our tools in the car etc) a group of people came out of nowhere and passed us by.

Later on the evening, i received a log find on another one of my (already published) caches.

When reading the log, they tell the story of seeing some people around with tools, gps, etc, but they continue to the other cache they were currently on.

On their way back, they decide to take a look around, and they found my unpublished cache, and claimed ftf and stf.

 

My question; are there unwritten rules on this? What is common?

 

I could consider this as a valid log, but what about ftf? The first find after publication will also want to claim ftf.( and stf) Should they atleast asked us what we were up to?

I'd like to have some opinions about this.

 

Kind regards,

Xistance

 

Ps: i'm not english speaking, so sorry for my (maybe) bad english.

[+dprovan]

You got caught. They found the cache. They are FTF.

 

Sometimes people around here will log "FTF after publication" when there was an earlier prepublication find.

[+niraD]

Yep, what dprovan wrote.

 

FTF - First to Find

FTFAP - First to Find After Publication

 

Seems clear enough to me. But maybe we also need

 

FTFAPAWAUA - First to Find After Publication and Without Any Unfair Advantage

FTFWFTOTSOFTFR - First to Find While Following the One True Set of FTF Rules

[+Walts Hunting]

I did a puzzle cache where you had to find three TBs to get the coordinates. Spent the day distributing them miles and miles apart with the cache not activated. After activation this was the first log.

 

Jeo was here

Mc5 and I were feeling like a hike so we decided to go on a Rad Trip and do some cache maintenence on "Red White and Blue" and "Road Trip". While there we stumbled across the first of the three bugs. I didn't recognize it or the cache it was refering to but wrote down the numbers anyway "Just in case". Then headed up the hill for a new cache "Gold Bug". Hey What's this a second mysterious TB??? The plot thickens, am I that far out of the loop or am I just getting lucky? Made a quick phone call to find out where the third TB was. Found out it was down in my area but also found out that there wasn't a cache yet hhmmm The gravy thickens Made a quick trip to get the rest of the info and hopefully find the mysterious cache. On approach to the final location I made a guess from about 100 feet away and I was right Mc5 hates it when I do that. Cool there's still an RC car and we were WooHoo FTF! Took the car and dropped off a 915LM garage door open/close indicator light (I'm glad I brought the work truck). Then when we got home still couldn't find the cache online and found out that it hadn't been approved yet. Cool found a cache before approval, reminds me of the good ol days when we could lurk around the not approved caches. Sometimes it pays to be lucky.

Thanks for a great and well setup cache.

[+The_Incredibles_]

They were FTF, so I think it's fine for them to claim it, although it might be nice to them to specify they found it before publishing.

 

As for the FTF after publishing, well, they can say this in their log.

 

I was FTF after publishing on a cache....the first name in the logbook was grandmas....months earlier. I chose to mark it as a FTF in my personal bookmark list.

[+redsox_mark]

 

My question; are there unwritten rules on this? What is common?

 

 

You are correct there are no official rules (so nothing written). And the unwritten rules vary.

 

My view is they found the cache, so they can claim FTF. They were first.

If the first to find after publication wants to claim FTF, that's fine too. Now there might be angst between the two FTFs, but hopefully not.

 

Some cache owners like to update the cache page to recognise the FTF. That complicates things as if you want do that you need to decide what to put. I have seen a recent case like this where the cache owner made the statement on the cache page that the accidental FTF doesn't count.. but not sure that is wise.

 

I would do/say nothing and let cachers claim what they want.

[+ChileHead]

First to Find means, well, First to Find. That's it. People can add all the qualifiers that they want if it makes them feel better that they weren't first.

[+Great Scott!]

First to Find means, well, First to Find. That's it. People can add all the qualifiers that they want if it makes them feel better that they weren't first.

 

Exactly.

[+Xistance]

Ok, thanks for your replies.

 

Since I suspected a multi would hit this traditional within the limit, I submitted it for review.

Appears I was right, I need to move the cache. :/ On the other hand, the "problem" is gone.

[+tweetiepy]

There seems to be quite a few caches around here that mention that it shouldn't be found before a specific day AND TIME. They seem to be theme caches for some sort of event - most are listed as GAG19, GAG12 (I don't recall what the GAG stands for but there are many). Lately quite a few caches were published with this header. It mentions that any logs before that certain time & date will be disqualified or something like that.

 

Some are published a day or two before that due date.

[+CanadianRockies]

There seems to be quite a few caches around here that mention that it shouldn't be found before a specific day AND TIME. They seem to be theme caches for some sort of event - most are listed as GAG19, GAG12 (I don't recall what the GAG stands for but there are many). Lately quite a few caches were published with this header. It mentions that any logs before that certain time & date will be disqualified or something like that.

 

Some are published a day or two before that due date.

We have a twice-annual Calgary Cache and Release event (e.g., CCARS12, CCARF12) where caches are published a few days in advance. The event's cache listings request that they not be found before a certain date and time (when the event officially begins).

 

Everyone respects the requests. If someone did grab a bunch of unauthorized FTFs, however, then there isn't any way to stop them from being claimed as FTFs.

 

A couple years ago, a nearby town held their first Cache and Release event, with similar notices. But someone found one of the caches early before realizing they shouldn't have done so. I was the first person to find that cache after the event began, but I didn't claim an FTF because it had, in fact, been found previously.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

We have a twice-annual Calgary Cache and Release event (e.g., CCARS12, CCARF12) where caches are published a few days in advance. The event's cache listings request that they not be found before a certain date and time (when the event officially begins).

 

Everyone respects the requests. If someone did grab a bunch of unauthorized FTFs, however, then there isn't any way to stop them from being claimed as FTFs.

 

A couple years ago, a nearby town held their first Cache and Release event, with similar notices. But someone found one of the caches early before realizing they shouldn't have done so. I was the first person to find that cache after the event began, but I didn't claim an FTF because it had, in fact, been found previously.

 

"Unauthorized FTFs"?!

 

You are either FTF or your not. Period.

[+CanadianRockies]

We have a twice-annual Calgary Cache and Release event (e.g., CCARS12, CCARF12) where caches are published a few days in advance. The event's cache listings request that they not be found before a certain date and time (when the event officially begins).

 

Everyone respects the requests. If someone did grab a bunch of unauthorized FTFs, however, then there isn't any way to stop them from being claimed as FTFs.

 

A couple years ago, a nearby town held their first Cache and Release event, with similar notices. But someone found one of the caches early before realizing they shouldn't have done so. I was the first person to find that cache after the event began, but I didn't claim an FTF because it had, in fact, been found previously.

"Unauthorized FTFs"?!

 

You are either FTF or your not. Period.

Yes, "unauthorized FTFs" are FTFs, which is why I didn't claim an FTF when an unauthorized FTF was found previously. But these FTFs are not authorized by the conventions of the Cache and Release events, which is why they are "unauthorized FTFs."

 

Pretty simple, really. You can put adjectives in front of the "FTF," such as "easy FTF," "long-unclaimed FTF", etc.

Edited May 10, 2013 by CanadianRockies

[+cerberus1]

We were less than a year in, gas was cheap and with CJ (at the time) a FTF fiend, we'd drive a hundred miles (stopping at others after the FTF).

 

Friday, a weekend day for night-shifters. New caches in Jersey. All ammo cans. FTF on all!

We were so happy, we TN, left swag in all and left one huge one in the last as a final thanks.

 

- Received an email when we got home that an event was slated for the weekend and the CO forgot to tell the Reviewer about publishing dates, thanked us for the nice logs, CITOing as we played and leaving swag.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Hmm... First to Find is First to Find. The person with you when you found it is Second to Find. Seems fairly obvious. First is first.

But anyway, on the subject at hand. We were geocaching in a park. Saw someone doing something strange just off the trail. I yelled "That should be easy to find." Chatted with the CO a bit, and wandered off. Came back and signed the log. (I guess I shouldn't have logged the geocoin...) He e-mailed me to say that I had not found it in the approved method (which would have involved finding two other caches.) I said "My signature is in the log." Before publication, he went back and moved the final, and tore the page out of the log. Okay. With that attitude, that CO is on my ignore list. And I deleted my FTF.

First to find (and sign the log book) is First to Find! Doesn't matter how it was found. Brute Force. Complete accident. Espying the CO in the process. Stealing the CO's GPS and checking for unpublished hidden caches. (Okay. That might be a bit much, but still FTF. May have to wait until after the court appearance to log it...)

[LUCKYDAYZOFSPARK]

Is there something I'm missing. I'm new to all this. How does one tell when they are allowed to find them then?

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Is there something I'm missing. I'm new to all this. How does one tell when they are allowed to find them then?

 

You're free to find them whenever you choose to search for them. As long as a cache is placed, it's acceptable to find it. It doesn't have to be published anywhere. Publishing the cache just gives you a set of coordinates to help narrow the search down but you're free to walk around and hope to get lucky.

[+fizzymagic]

Is there something I'm missing. I'm new to all this. How does one tell when they are allowed to find them then?

 

Feel free to ignore this whole thread. There are a bunch of geocachers who have decided to invent a new game for themselves, which they call the "FTF Game." Apparently there aren't enough rules in geocaching already, so they are constantly trying to make new ones for their side game. If you don't want to play the side game, you can safely completely ignore it. It's not an official part of geocaching.

[+briansnat]

FTF is a fact, you are first to find an cache, or you aren't. The circumstance are irrelevant. End of story.

[+The_Incredibles_]

FTF is a fact, you are first to find an cache, or you aren't. The circumstance are irrelevant. End of story.

 

It's not that simple. If someone can be FTF on a cache while it is sitting in the woods waiting to be published, how about if they come to my house and sign the logbook before I go out and hide it. Are they still FTF? What if they come along and help me hide it-are they FTF?

 

Of course, according to other threads, signing the logbook isn't necessarily required either, so technically, my cat's been FTF on most of my caches.

[+lamoracke]

Let folks say what they want in their logs....someone found it first, they can claim FTF. The folks who claim FTF after publish, let them. Not worth mentioning as the CO in any way if you ask me, folks will put it in their bookmarks as they wish, do not even try to police it, not worth the effort to try.

[+briansnat]

oopsies

Edited May 11, 2013 by briansnat

[+briansnat]

FTF is a fact, you are first to find an cache, or you aren't. The circumstance are irrelevant. End of story.

 

It's not that simple. If someone can be FTF on a cache while it is sitting in the woods waiting to be published, how about if they come to my house and sign the logbook before I go out and hide it. Are they still FTF? What if they come along and help me hide it-are they FTF?

 

Of course, according to other threads, signing the logbook isn't necessarily required either, so technically, my cat's been FTF on most of my caches.

 

My post assumed the cache was in situ. Someone coming to your house to log a find before you hide a cache isn't geocaching.

Edited May 11, 2013 by briansnat

[+The_Incredibles_]

FTF is a fact, you are first to find an cache, or you aren't. The circumstance are irrelevant. End of story.

 

It's not that simple. If someone can be FTF on a cache while it is sitting in the woods waiting to be published, how about if they come to my house and sign the logbook before I go out and hide it. Are they still FTF? What if they come along and help me hide it-are they FTF?

 

Of course, according to other threads, signing the logbook isn't necessarily required either, so technically, my cat's been FTF on most of my caches.

 

My post assumed the cache was in situ. Someone coming to your house to log a find before you hide a cache isn't geocaching.

 

Well if they find it by accident (no GPS) while it's waiting to be published, that's not geocaching either.

[+fizzymagic]

Well if they find it by accident (no GPS) while it's waiting to be published, that's not geocaching either.

 

It's not? Please explain.

 

If I see a likely geocache hiding spot and I look in it and there is a geocache, then it sure seems like geocaching to me.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Well if they find it by accident (no GPS) while it's waiting to be published, that's not geocaching either.

 

It's not? Please explain.

 

If I see a likely geocache hiding spot and I look in it and there is a geocache, then it sure seems like geocaching to me.

 

Because, as we've been reminded many times, GPS usage is integral to the game.

 

If it's not, someone who finds a geocache on my kitchen table may as well log a find.

 

Also, I'd like to know at what point a geocache becomes a geocache?

 

A] When it's assembled and sitting on my kitchen table OR

B] When it's hidden in the forest awaiting publishing OR

C] When it's published

 

If it's B], what happens if the cache gets rejected by the reviewer and never retrieved. Does that mean it was a geocache at placing, but ceased being a geocache as soon as the owner decided not to retrieve it? If whether or not it gets published affects whether or not it can be considered a geocache, then maybe the correct answer is C].

 

If it's C] and someone found it before publishing, they didn't really find a geocache, did they? So how can they claim they were first to find the geocache?

Edited May 11, 2013 by The_Incredibles_

[+niraD]

B] When it's hidden in the forest awaiting publishing

A geocache is a container hidden for others to find. There is no requirement that the geocache be hidden in a forest. There is no requirement that a listing be published on geocaching.com (or on any other web site).

 

Your "kitchen table" strawman leaves out the "hidden for others to find" part.

 

Unless you're hiding caches on your kitchen table for others to find, in which case it's okay. But it was the "hiding... for others to find" part that made it a geocache, not the "on your kitchen table" part.

[+fizzymagic]

Well if they find it by accident (no GPS) while it's waiting to be published, that's not geocaching either.

 

It's not? Please explain.

 

If I see a likely geocache hiding spot and I look in it and there is a geocache, then it sure seems like geocaching to me.

 

Because, as we've been reminded many times, GPS usage is integral to the game.

 

If it's not, someone who finds a geocache on my kitchen table may as well log a find.

 

Also, I'd like to know at what point a geocache becomes a geocache?

 

A] When it's assembled and sitting on my kitchen table OR

B] When it's hidden in the forest awaiting publishing OR

C] When it's published

 

If it's B], what happens if the cache gets rejected by the reviewer and never retrieved. Does that mean it was a geocache at placing, but ceased being a geocache as soon as the owner decided not to retrieve it?

 

You seem to be under the misapprehension that geocaching and geocaching.com are one and the same. They are not. Geocaching existed before geocaching.com, and it exists outside of it as well.

 

I'll refine what I said above: it's a cache the moment it is hidden. It's a geocache when I give somebody the coordinates. How I choose to do that is up to me. If somebody finds a cache before it becomes a geocache, they are still first to find it, because (to my mind) there is no separate category for "first to find using a GPS."

 

Caches are generally placed somewhere for retrieval by another person. If you think that putting a container on your kitchen counter is placing a cache, then go right ahead. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to hunt, to me.

 

But just because a geocache is not listed on this site does not mean it doesn't exist and cannot be found. It just means you don't receive that all-important smiley if you find it.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that geocaching and geocaching.com are one and the same. They are not. Geocaching existed before geocaching.com, and it exists outside of it as well.

 

I'll refine what I said above: it's a cache the moment it is hidden. It's a geocache when I give somebody the coordinates. How I choose to do that is up to me. If somebody finds a cache before it becomes a geocache, they are still first to find it, because (to my mind) there is no separate category for "first to find using a GPS."

 

Caches are generally placed somewhere for retrieval by another person. If you think that putting a container on your kitchen counter is placing a cache, then go right ahead. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to hunt, to me.

 

But just because a geocache is not listed on this site does not mean it doesn't exist and cannot be found. It just means you don't receive that all-important smiley if you find it.

Well stated. Thank you. The more I hang around these forums, the more my common sense gets clouded by opinions that are slightly askew and touted as fact.

[AZcachemeister]

Because, as we've been reminded many times, GPS usage is integral to the game.

 

If it's not, someone who finds a geocache on my kitchen table may as well log a find.

 

When HIDING a geocache you 'must' use a GPSr to get the co-ordinates.

When FINDING a geocache you can use any means you like, including dumb luck and stalking the CO.

 

There are some highly skilled geocachers who use a map and compass to find (hundreds of) geocaches, and have never owned a GPSr.