HELP! My Geocache is suddenly unaccessible!

[TonyAir]

Hi all,

 

I've never posted in the forums, so forgive me if this is the incorrect board for this:

My first and only Geocache, GC332EF "Life's a Beech" is facing an uncertain future. The only pathway leading back into the woods where the cache is located has suddenly been marked with dozens of "NO TRESPASSING" signs, leaving the only option to park on the shoulder of a main road or in the abandoned airport's parking lot (which the owner of the airport does not want).

 

I would rather not deactivate this cache, as it is a very unique "abandoned structure" cache and was regarded as 'Best in Central Jersey - 2011' by the Central Jersey Geocachers (Love you guys!).

 

Advice? Take it down? Fight the power?

[+StarBrand]

Seems like a permission issue. Does the owner/landmanager know of the cache?? - seems as if they do not given the new signs (I could be wrong).

[jholly]

The owner of the property apparently does not want folks walking on their property. Unless you can obtain permission of the property owner for the cache and the cachers crossing his property the only thing left is to archive the cache. Until you resolve the issues, if you can, I would disable the cache immediately. Not sure what the property laws are in your state, but having folks cross marked property could expose them to prosecution. I'm sure if you don't resolve the issues the reviewer will.

[MisterEFQ]

Research other areas for them to park and tell people that they have to......WALK.

 

Who owns the property the cache is on?

[Mr.Yuck]

The owner of the property apparently does not want folks walking on their property. Unless you can obtain permission of the property owner for the cache and the cachers crossing his property the only thing left is to archive the cache. Until you resolve the issues, if you can, I would disable the cache immediately. Not sure what the property laws are in your state, but having folks cross marked property could expose them to prosecution. I'm sure if you don't resolve the issues the reviewer will.

 

Well you certainly didn't find out about the no tresspassing signs from the last logged visit. (Tftc) Sounds like a great cache. How close to the cache do these no tresspassing signs get before ending?

[+Semper Questio]

Seems like a permission issue. Does the owner/landmanager know of the cache?? - seems as if they do not given the new signs (I could be wrong).

 

The new signs could be there because the owner DOES know about the cache and doesn't want folks going there via their property.

 

Maybe I missed it, but one point is not clear. Is the cache on the same owner's land or is only the drive and the parking area at issue?

 

If the former, then you need to disable the cache and work out placement and access permission issues or archive the cache if that is not possible.

 

If the latter, you need to mention on the cache page that those are not to be used. Perhaps provide an alternate access route, even if that means upping your D/T ratings. In the meantime you can always talk to the landowner about getting permission for cachers to use the parking lot, although I would not hold out much hope for that.

[+DragonsWest]

Answer the first question "Is it on private property?"

 

The second question of access, could lay in Right of Way statutes - If it can be demonstrated that a public right of way has existed and been used a property owner may have to allow passage (these are very old laws) Which really bothers some property owners, so they'll go out of their way to try to block what appears to be becoming (or has been used) as a public right of way.

[TonyAir]

Seems like a permission issue. Does the owner/landmanager know of the cache?? - seems as if they do not given the new signs (I could be wrong).

 

The problem with permission is that the airport has recently been sold to the township as park space, hence why I set up this cache in the first place. Hopewell and Lawrence Township now own the airport property. I'm 95% sure the patch of forest is part of the airport property, so my guess is the Cache location is within the township's land.

 

Here's my guess: The people that put up the signs are the same people that own the property within the fenced-off area, shown in the picture and aerial picture (where all those vehicles are, past the gate). They saw people parking in front of their fence and did not want that. They do NOT own the forest where the cache is located. I do have the old airport owner's Email, however I did not ask her for permission when I placed the cache because when I placed it, the airport had already long been sold to the township as parkland.

 

Maybe shooting an email to the former airport owner is in store? Not sure how a 60-year-old woman from Texas that is fed up with New Jersey but is friendly to pilots like me will deal with a Geocache...

Edited March 29, 2012 by TonyAir

[+DragonsWest]

Looking near the land in question, I see what was clearly once a Rail Right of Way. Perhaps that will serve as entrance to the park?

[+StarBrand]

Looking near the land in question, I see what was clearly once a Rail Right of Way. Perhaps that will serve as entrance to the park?

My best guess as well.

 

Overall though - It should never be that any Geocache or searchers should interfere with the daily life's of neighboring land owners that are not willing participants. Sometimes it is just best to close them up rather than tick people off further.

[+CanadianRockies]

The problem with permission is that the airport has recently been sold to the township as park space, hence why I set up this cache in the first place. Hopewell and Lawrence Township now own the airport property. I'm 95% sure the patch of forest is part of the airport property, so my guess is the Cache location is within the township's land.

If the cache is on township parkland, then there presumably will be some way for the public to access that parkland and geocachers can use that route. In the unlikely case that the parkland is intended to be closed to the public, then the cache should be archived.

[TonyAir]

The problem with permission is that the airport has recently been sold to the township as park space, hence why I set up this cache in the first place. Hopewell and Lawrence Township now own the airport property. I'm 95% sure the patch of forest is part of the airport property, so my guess is the Cache location is within the township's land.

If the cache is on township parkland, then there presumably will be some way for the public to access that parkland and geocachers can use that route. In the unlikely case that the parkland is intended to be closed to the public, then the cache should be archived.

 

My thoughts exactly. Once the parking area is complete (which is directly in front of the pathway leading into the woods), this cache will be much easier to get to.

[+secretagentbill]

in the abandoned airport's parking lot (which the owner of the airport does not want).

If the old airport is now owned by the township, isn't it now the township's parking lot? I'm missing what the airport owner has to do with it, unless he parceled out the land and kept the parking lot. If it's the township that doesn't want people parking there, then perhaps the cache placement needs to be re-evaluated.

 

Maybe you can check with the township supervisors. If they own the land, they should be able to provide guidance on right-of-way and parking issues.

[+secretagentbill]

My thoughts exactly. Once the parking area is complete (which is directly in front of the pathway leading into the woods), this cache will be much easier to get to.

Yep. Is the park close to be finished? You could disable until it is built or at least post warnings on the cache page about the situation.

 

edit: typo

Edited March 29, 2012 by secretagentbill

[knowschad]

Wow! I just scoped out the gallery for your cache... do whatever you can to obtain proper permission... that is an awesome place for a cache!!

[+secretagentbill]

Wow! I just scoped out the gallery for your cache... do whatever you can to obtain proper permission... that is an awesome place for a cache!!

That is pretty sweet! That's why I'm thinking if you have to disable until the park is built or whatever, be sure to post updates often so it doesn't end up getting archived!

[+cache_test_dummies]

I had carefully overlaid tax maps onto the Google satellite view of the area and had myself convinced that the cache was right in the middle of somebody's private property.

 

And then I realized the Hopewell Township tax maps I was using were from 1941.

 

 

Cool place for a cache - hope you get it all worked out.

[+KyleYankan]

I had carefully overlaid tax maps onto the Google satellite view of the area and had myself convinced that the cache was right in the middle of somebody's private property.

 

And then I realized the Hopewell Township tax maps I was using were from 1941.

 

 

Cool place for a cache - hope you get it all worked out.

 

at the risk of sounding like a newbie.... wher can I get tax maps? lol

[+NYPaddleCacher]

My thoughts exactly. Once the parking area is complete (which is directly in front of the pathway leading into the woods), this cache will be much easier to get to.

Yep. Is the park close to be finished? You could disable until it is built or at least post warnings on the cache page about the situation.

 

edit: typo

 

Disabling the cache right away is the first step. Putting warnings on the cache page is not sufficient as not everyone reads the entire cache page prior to searching for a cache. Even if it takes several months for the park to completed and/or permission issues to be straightened out the cache can remain where it is, and the spot "held" until it's accessible again. If it's going to be disabled for more than a month or so, posting a owner maintenance log on the page to let the reviewer know what the situation is will keep it from being archived.

 

When I looked at the aerial photo I noticed a yellow house that appears to be just west of the road with the signs on each side. The woodsy area where the cache is located appears to be behind that house but one would have to look at property maps (which might even be available online) to see where the property line is. Given the nature of the object where the cache is hidden it would seem likely that the property was owned by the airport (and now the town) but it would be best to confirm.

 

A few years ago I a cache in a publically accessible undeveloped area. It was adjacent to a ropes course facility owned by the university with a really interesting structure on the property. Several of the initial finders mentioned have a very friendly and long chat with the students running the facility and the cache was getting some really nice logs. Then I got an email message from someone that worked at the ropes course demanding that I remove the cache because people were going onto private property. Because not of the property boundaries were marked there wasn't really anyway to direct people such that they didn't enter the "private property" I archived the cache to avoid any kind of drama. I probably could have "fought it" but keeping one cache active, no matter how good it is, isn't worth jeopardizing landmanger/geocacher relations.

[+Harry Dolphin]

 

 

The parks commission certainly would agree with you. Looks to be within the proposed park. Probably the person with the trucks parked back there is who is unhappy. He may have a lease that permits him to do this. Good luck. Looks like a great cache!

[+cache_test_dummies]

at the risk of sounding like a newbie.... wher can I get tax maps? lol

I can tell you where you can get 1941 tax maps for Hopewell Township, NJ!

 

Finding maps like these can be a challenge. Some (not all) cities, towns, and counties make property or tax maps available on-line, but there's no standard pattern that I've found for finding them. I just usually Google the city/town name along with "tax maps" (or something similar) and try to find a web site that seems to be somehow officially associated with the the city/town (rather than something that looks like a realtor site or an aggregator site).

[knowschad]

I just fear that they will do with that park as I've seen them do time and time again... take a very cool, "secret" place and turn it into an over-cultivated public spectacle.

 

I have a cache hidden near some 125 year old Rock Island Line railroad tracks that are being torn up to make yet another bike trail. There are trees 18" in diameter growing between the rails, but the rails are soon to be replaced by asphalt. The job description for Park Manager often ought to read, "just do nothing".

[jholly]

I just fear that they will do with that park as I've seen them do time and time again... take a very cool, "secret" place and turn it into an over-cultivated public spectacle.

 

I have a cache hidden near some 125 year old Rock Island Line railroad tracks that are being torn up to make yet another bike trail. There are trees 18" in diameter growing between the rails, but the rails are soon to be replaced by asphalt. The job description for Park Manager often ought to read, "just do nothing".

Now, now, now. They will make a nice paved path to walk or ride your bike on so you can enjoy nature. You will be admonished not to step off the path lest you damage the fragile ecosystem and you will probably have to have a permit to place a cache and the only thing you can possibly place that stands a chance of surviving is a bison or a film can. See, isn't that a much better park now than that old rail line with all that brush and trees you have to push through to find the ammo can? Oh, and of course your dog has to be on a six foot leash. The only thing I have to worry about around here is that they are going to divide those nice tree farms into 20 acre parcels and sell them off.

[+Sol seaker]

Looks like an awesome cache!

 

But life is a beech, and this one is going to have to be disabled until you can find a good access route, which may be after the park is built.

 

A cache has got to have access.

If you are going to leave it enabled then you need to tell people on the cache page how to get there. I see that you've said that they can't go through the private property, which is good.

 

As I see it, the property owner probably put up those signs after a lot of geocachers came trooping across his property. He's got full right to put up those signs if he owns that property.

 

We need to keep good relations with neighbors.

 

If there is another way to access your cache that people can find, then the "no tresspassing" signs should do it. People should know better than to cross private property.

Remember, a lot of people don't read the cache pages before finding a cache.

[+benh57]

 

The parks commission certainly would agree with you. Looks to be within the proposed park. Probably the person with the trucks parked back there is who is unhappy. He may have a lease that permits him to do this. Good luck. Looks like a great cache!

 

If you carefully read the text in the master plan, it says "this lot needs cleanp and will not be available for occupation for 5 years".

 

I'm thinking they indeed have a 5 year lease on the area, and when that expires, they will clean it up, removing the old destroyed aircraft.

[+OZ2CPU]

laws, rules, land this or that dont matter a thing !!

if ONE person who own some land near by, dont like people parking anywhere even if they can due to law and rules,

you will still drive them mad, and give geocaching a bad name,

sooner or later this person driven mad enought will maybe shoot someone tresspassing,

see the news or read the forums you find several storries like this,

or this mad person will write bad articles online and create a very bad reputation of geocaching,

remember you do actually encurage people to visit this location, one way or the other.

you want happy people all over, else your mission has failed..

you will newer be able to make all visitors follow your recommendations

no matte how clearly you write, park here or else ! they will drive as close as they can,

no matter what signs or info they get !! thrust me !!

I have seen clear evidense of parking damage so many places where caches are nearby,

and a nice legal parking lot just a minute walk away is tottally ignored over and over !!

geocachers HATE to walk..

Edited March 30, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[Clan Riffster]

Advice? Take it down? Fight the power?

First, let me, "Kewl!" You've made an awesome cache that I would love to visit.

 

With the kudos out of the way, I'll move on to the advice segment of this post. I can't tell you what you should do, as it's not my cache. But I can tell you what I would do. My initial step, (as in, right now), would be to disable the cache. Then I would go on a fact finding mission. The first thing I would establish is who is going to be the controlling agency behind this property. Google tells me there are five possibilities, as there were five groups, Mercer County, Hopewell and Lawrence townships and Hopewell and Pennington boroughs, working together to ensure the purchase. Once I knew who would be running the show, I would approach them for permission for the cache. Personally, I would not mention the aircraft at ground zero, as some bureaucrats, being predisposed to say "No", might leap on that as an excuse. If I got permission, I would put boots on soil, checking for a more viable approach to ground zero. Knowing how lazy some cachers can be, I would likely archive the traditional and create either a multi, a puzzle or a Wherigo, which would allow me a greater degree of input regarding where folks parked. Living in Central Florida, I am obviously not familiar with the area in question, so any advice I might offer as to approach needs to be taken with a huge grain of NaCl. Looking at Google Earth, I would be tempted to direct folks to what appears to be an entrance on Federal City Rd, just north of Pennington Lawrenceville Rd. That might be a good spot for stage 1? Then guide them northwest to 40.311107°, -74.762462°, where it looks like there's a vehicle gap in the north/south fence line. Stage 2? From there, give them the coords to the cache. This route should keep cachers away from the property where all the 'No Trespassing' signs are procreating.

 

Something else to consider: Your ground zero is quite likely going to be drastically altered in the next couple years. nj.com reports that there is going to be an aviation museum at that park, comprised of all the plane parts left from when the airport was closed. http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/10/hopewell_to_construct_aviation.html I doubt that whoever is going to run the show is going to leave your cache's plane resting hidden in the woods. If they leave it in place, I expect they will sterilize the area, perhaps even building a quaint sidewalk and fence keeping folks from being able to lay hands on it. Enjoy the location while you can.

 

Another possibility, which will require some promotion on your part, is to create the new cache in such a way that it promotes the air museum. Maybe paint the ammo can so it looks like it belongs in an airplane? Find an approved way to secure it in place, and get TPTB to leave at least one plane with public access?

 

Just my $0.02.

[7rxc]

I'd add... does anyone know if the controlling agency(ies) have existing Geocaching policies in place? That might provide the groundwork for either preserving or redoing this cache. If they have a strong NO policy, that might have to be changed, if it is a 'conditional' type policy then it can be worked within or to change, or it might just be that they don't mind enough to have one other than tell us and it's fine. That would be the second thing I'd consider after disabling.

 

As for the fenced area, that might or might not be part of the park, with or without a lease. I've seen way to many concept drawings that conveniently ignore the odd private property to save drawing time... but it might be currently being negotiated for re future acquisition.

 

Good luck.

 

Doug 7rxc

[Clan Riffster]

As for the fenced area, that might or might not be part of the park

I Googled "Mercer County NJ GIS" and got a good look at the property boundaries.

Not sure which fence your reply was in reference to, but I bet whoever asked it could get an answer there.

[+ohmelli]

THAT is a sweeeeeet cache! I've got NO 2 cents to put in here... but I wish you the BEST with getting it worked out!

[7rxc]

As for the fenced area, that might or might not be part of the park

I Googled "Mercer County NJ GIS" and got a good look at the property boundaries.

Not sure which fence your reply was in reference to, but I bet whoever asked it could get an answer there.

 

I was talking about the area that the lane in the photo leads to.. fenced in with vehicles.

 

I tried that 'search', but didn't find any maps of anysort but I did find a viewer link. did you use anything in particular?

 

Not really that much interested, but I do like aviation theme caches... The artists that do the development maps and drawings do like to avoid complexities some times, especially when things are up for negotiations.

 

Doug 7rxc

[Clan Riffster]

I tried that 'search', but didn't find any maps of anysort but I did find a viewer link. did you use anything in particular?

Probably the same one you found:

http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/departments/planning/geograph.html

Near the lower right, under More Information, GIS Data Viewer?

My browser was getting wiggy, and was not allowing popups, (even though I changed my settings to allow them and restarted the browser, then tried two other browsers), so I couldn't look at the property owner's information, but the borders seemed well defined. Comparing the GIS map to Google Earth it looks like the park boundary follows the edge of that lane.

[7rxc]

I tried that 'search', but didn't find any maps of anysort but I did find a viewer link. did you use anything in particular?

Probably the same one you found:

http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/departments/planning/geograph.html

Near the lower right, under More Information, GIS Data Viewer?

My browser was getting wiggy, and was not allowing popups, (even though I changed my settings to allow them and restarted the browser, then tried two other browsers), so I couldn't look at the property owner's information, but the borders seemed well defined. Comparing the GIS map to Google Earth it looks like the park boundary follows the edge of that lane.

Thanks for that... that is the one I found, but all I get is the viewer and nothing else works at all... maybe they shut down for the weekend for updating! I'm trying something else while I wait.

 

Doug 7rxc

Edited April 1, 2012 by 7rxc

[7rxc]

Duplicated posting, darn.

 

Doug 7rxc

Edited April 1, 2012 by 7rxc

[7rxc]

Came across an interesting document... sheds a lot of light on the timing and plans for the site.

 

I was trying to do an overlay which is sort of working, but isn't ready yet. Wanted a better copy of that 'proposal drawing'. Did not find that yet, but found this .pdf file.

 

Twin Pines Project

 

Apparently much of the area is fuel contaminated and so forth, but the good news is that a lot of this was from 2008 (the main property purchase) and that 5 year to occupancy MAY be next Spring. The pdf file says they are waiting to see if it will be purchased as of 2008 or so. Always good to check with the local committees.

 

Hopefully the area of GZ will not be bulldozed to clean it up... but that initial sketch of the plan up above has a note about that cleared area being a cleared area in the plans and it is close to the GZ.

 

Look at the lower left notation. In fact all of them are interesting reading, but sometimes hard to see. Which is why I was looking for a better copy. One says that the western wetland area is going to be for on trail and nature study only. Another identifies a family picnic area not far from GZ. If you look closely at the graphic there are some new trails under and amongst those tree symbols as well.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+secretagentbill]

Came across an interesting document... sheds a lot of light on the timing and plans for the site.

...

Twin Pines Project

I spotted this in the PDF that was linked:

the remnants of one vintage vehicle was found in the wooded portion of the site...the vintage vehicle remnants will require

permit for the removal which will be sought simultaneously with the permits for site development.

I'm guessing that's the plane in the woods that houses the cache. Sounds like they plan on removing it at some point during development. Bummer.

[7rxc]

Came across an interesting document... sheds a lot of light on the timing and plans for the site.

...

Twin Pines Project

I spotted this in the PDF that was linked:

the remnants of one vintage vehicle was found in the wooded portion of the site...the vintage vehicle remnants will require

permit for the removal which will be sought simultaneously with the permits for site development.

I'm guessing that's the plane in the woods that houses the cache. Sounds like they plan on removing it at some point during development. Bummer.

Yep... and GZ is right in the area designated for Soccer field #3 (Hopewell).

Of course no one yet knows where the plane will end up... or if they got the area decontaminated yet, and so on.

Too bad but it might go on for a while. Maybe they can do a memorial cache to the cache later on...

 

Doug 7rxc

[+hzoi]

Came across an interesting document... sheds a lot of light on the timing and plans for the site.

...

Twin Pines Project

I spotted this in the PDF that was linked:

the remnants of one vintage vehicle was found in the wooded portion of the site...the vintage vehicle remnants will require

permit for the removal which will be sought simultaneously with the permits for site development.

I'm guessing that's the plane in the woods that houses the cache. Sounds like they plan on removing it at some point during development. Bummer.

 

I read that the same way. Unlikely that they'd leave an abandoned plane wreck in the woods. So, enjoy the cache while you can.

 

I'll be in NJ in August, too bad this is a little further north than I anticipate being able to venture.

[TonyAir]

Thanks to everyone very much for helping me with this cache. I'm saddened to see that the entire area is slated to be cleared...I guess I have a few options at this point:

 

1) Disable my cache until completion of the park and scope out a new, boring park location (Though I'm going away to college in Florida for 4 years and would need someone else to watch over it)

 

2) Email the former airport owner my problem (The former airport owner only owns the airport buildings and parking lot. She will most likely assume ownership of the airplane the Geocache is in. The rest of the airport property she has no control over)

 

3) Leave the cache up this summer and constantly visit the area surrounding GZ to check up on it, hoping for the best as well as hoping that SOME PEOPLE don't park right in front of the gated property that may have caused the No-Trespassing signs

 

4) Call Hopewell Township and ask them the current of future status and times of the wooded area where the cache is located (How on Earth do I explain Geocaching to a township person??? )

[+Chokecherry]

I've worked with a couple different communities where I am to get permission to put caches out. Explaining what geocaching is was a combo of showing them the website, bringing along some literature, showing them pictures of examples of geocaches and taking full responsibility for the stuff I put out. So basically promising I won't deliberately put something out in a way that will likely cause injury to people, making sure it doesn't become garbage, giving them my name if something goes wrong they can call me and I will be there asap to fix it (so mostly meaning I'm going to stick around town to take care of it), making sure it's away from stuff that the city doesn't want damaged, etc. It really isn't that hard in the grand scheme of things to work with a community as long as you approach it as a team effort between you and the community instead of going at it and being adversarial (stomping feet and saying it's public land and I want to have it here regardless of the problems it may cause for example).

 

Personally I would work with the township people in this case. While the airplane may stay under the ownership of the airport people the reality is this is going to be a community park. And if the people who live around that park are having issues with something occuring near their property it's the township people who are going to hear about it and then potentially remove your hobby from their park. It's far better to be proactive about these things than reactive and try to undo a mess after the fact.