Planting a catche in a traffic sign

[Manakala]

Hi, I'm a geocatching novice and I'm planning to plant my first geocatche soon. I found a good spot for it (at least to me); inside a traffic sign. The question is, do I need a special permission from municipality or something? It would be invisible to normal eye and wouldn't harm the traffic sign on any way as half of it is already loose. Technically, the sign is not on a private land. On the other hand, it's still private property.

 

I know people plant their catches on trashcans and all sorts of pipes but I just don't want to get in trouble with this. I just want to know whether I need a permission for this. Do you have any opinions on this?

[+Planet]

Are you hiding this cache just for a hide, or is there something interesting to see there? Is someone going to get hit by a car looking for it? Whose name is on the bottom of the sign? Dept if Transportation, Police, or property owner. That's who you would ask, and I will bet they say no. Too much liability. I know there are tons of hides like this, but I personally find them uninteresting, don't seek them out, and I truly believe the proliferation of them is the degradation and downfall of this hobby. That's just my opinion (and a bunch of other cachers I know) and I'm sticking to it.

[+A & J Tooling]

Around these parts there are quite a few 'on' signs. I can pretty much bet no permission was asked. No, I just pass 'em by. Nothing much to look at on a sign. Paint, metal, bolts, nuts, a couple of washers and sometimes some reflective material. Pretty boring if you ask me. Plus people give you funny looks when you're standing 2 feet from a sign staring at it. After all, that's the reason you want to bring me there right?

[+Chief301]

I think nobody should hide a cache until they've been caching long enough to realize that it's a "cache" and not a "catch"...just sayin'....

Edited October 5, 2011 by Chief301

[Manakala]

Yes, there should be a reason to bring people to the cache. Maybe there is no reason for this... Just a mystery...

 

And did I tell I was a novice, no?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Manakala

[+Frank Broughton]

Just as important is to use a container that will keep the log dry, that is as abused as locations that are not pleasing.

[+JL_HSTRE]

As long as you aren't modifying/disassembling the sign or signpost you should probably be okay. Many states technically have laws on the books about placing things on the right-of-way of federal & state highways, but this seems unenforced by both Groundspeak and local law enforcement. (I think VA and SC are the only actively prohibited ones.) If it's a local road then you're even more likely in the clear.

 

While technically safety does not disqualify a cache, I would refrain from placing one on a sign that required say crossing a busy multi-lane road to reach the median or similiar dangers.

 

As far as sign caches being "lame"/etc: I personally wouldn't put a cache on a sign for the sake of putting a cache on a sign. But if you feel the location, sign, or the nature of your hide/container is worth bringing people to then why not?

[Manakala]

The sign is by a crossroads but does not require anyone to go near the road. And my original idea was to set up a mystery catche with the only hint being the name in the sign. Dunno if this would be worth it.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Although not mentioned in the OP whether it is a "traffic control" device-type sign, placing anything upon it is illegal in most any jurisdiction.

 

If this sign is not a traffic control device but rather an informational sign, the standard is different.

[+kunarion]

The sign is by a crossroads but does not require anyone to go near the road. And my original idea was to set up a mystery catche with the only hint being the name in the sign.

It's a better plan to have people read a clue from a sign.

 

One consideration is that signs get repaired or replaced. Even if you have explicit permission, you know that the repair workers likely have no idea there's even a cache there. It could be more maintenance for you than most hide styles would be. If you're willing to do what it takes to keep it a viable cache, that's fine.

 

If there are other signs closer to the road, be careful. New cachers often use car a GPS, and may end up searching closer to traffic than necessary, due to a car GPS trying to keep to the street.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I've done a ton of them on signs and have no problem with them....I don't think permission is necessary. I would avoid busy intersections or any other area where safety would be a concern.

Regarding the quality of such a cache or the idea that a cache " should bring me someplace interesting " I have a few comments. Geocaching became my primary hobby some 8 years ago and my wife and I do it together and have cached 48 states coast to coast. I would say that 80 % of our finds did not bring us anyplace particularly interesting and thats just fine....we enjoyed hunting for and finding the cache because its what we do. If you ONLY want to visit INTERESTING places you can get a tour-guide book and do that ( we did for years ). Some folks would have caches so selective after a short while you could put up your GPS unit and take up golf or something. Make no mistake , I love interesting ( esp. historic ) places and these are my favorites but we find all the others as well.....you will see interesting things EVERYWHERE if you just look for them.

[+kunarion]

you will see interesting things EVERYWHERE if you just look for them.

That's where the Geocache should be then.

 

You're right that lots of people like to find a micro on a sign, nothing particularly stunning about the spot, even with extremely questionable throw-downs. Some folks like to see a new place they didn't know about, others are OK to just find a container. I'd avoid trying to see just how uninteresting I can make my cache, but that's just me.

Edited October 5, 2011 by kunarion

[+dfx]

Well, if you plant it, make sure you go back every day and water it, so that it can grow.

[Manakala]

Smartass...

[+Mr. 0]

I think nobody should hide a cache until they've been caching long enough to realize that it's a "cache" and not a "catch"...just sayin'....

 

 

There seems to be some regional differences in terms, and various slang when it comes to Geocaching. I've heard/read plenty of people using the term "catch" over "cache." Also considering that Manakala appears to be from Finland, English may not be their first language making it easy for them to make a simple mistake.

 

---

 

That being said, yes, it's true that there are lots of caches on signs out there already. And yes, it's true they probably don't have permission...but that doesn't mean you should follow that example.

 

If you really want to place your cache there, then please do try to get permission. As others have mentioned, there are laws here in the U.S. about messing with traffic control devices. Assuming it's the same where you are, that could land you, or finders in a lot of trouble. There's also the possibility that some passerby might see the cache, or someone at the cache and think it's suspicious. Soon the police get called and it's usually downhill from there. Yeah, we know it's a cache, and it's not a big deal, but not everyone else does. In today's climate people tend to panic over everything.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Mr. 0

[+niraD]

And my original idea was to set up a mystery catche with the only hint being the name in the sign.

If you do something like this, make sure that accurate GPS coordinates are an essential part of the cache hunt at some point. According to the guidelines, "GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and finding geocaches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions."

[+NanCycle]

 

There seems to be some regional differences in terms, and various slang when it comes to Geocaching. I've heard/read plenty of people using the term "catch" over "cache." Well, they're just wrong, just plain wrong.

 

Also considering that Manakala appears to be from Finland, English may not be their first language making it easy for them to make a simple mistake. However, great leeway should be afforded to those whose English (while not perfect) is much better than your or my attempts at their native language would be.

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited October 6, 2011 by DoubleBent

[Manakala]

How do I add the GPS part on that? It sounds really plain to give coordinates that lead to a box where you find a note that tells you to go to look for a signpost with a text on it... I don't think that would be very interesting. It would be much simpler to read a clue from the web and go straight to look for the signpost than go to a cache just to go to look for another cache. Or I start calling it from now on my native language, "kätkö".

 

There are no similar type of kätkö around, the kätkö is far from other kätkös, unknown catches' (mysteerikätkön) coordinates don't have to lead anywhere. They are just used to mark the location the kätkö is around.

 

Or, one solution. I can give the coordinates the kätkö is around, although this can ruin the whole experience of hunting. Maybe I just mark the coordinates about 1km away from the kätkö and tell them to search around. Geocatching is also an idea to bring people out in the nature to walk and enjoy the adventure of "modern treasure hunting."

 

Or, second solution. I can also take the coordinates of the kätkö and give them two options; the other way is to solve all the questions to get the coordinates, the second is simply to search around the local area. It helps if they are local people.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Manakala

[+Triskelle]

[Manakala]

I have sent a kätkö request to municipality. Let's see if we can get a response and a possible permission. This might take a while though, as I asked over 2 years ago about airsofting in a local woodland... we still haven't received an answer

[+kunarion]

How do I add the GPS part on that? It sounds really plain to give coordinates that lead to a box where you find a note that tells you to go to look for a signpost with a text on it... I don't think that would be very interesting. It would be much simpler to read a clue from the web and go straight to look for the signpost than go to a cache just to go to look for another cache. Or I start calling it from now on my native language, "kätkö".

 

There are no similar type of kätkö around, the kätkö is far from other kätkös, unknown catches' (mysteerikätkön) coordinates don't have to lead anywhere. They are just used to mark the location the kätkö is around.

 

Or, one solution. I can give the coordinates the kätkö is around, although this can ruin the whole experience of hunting. Maybe I just mark the coordinates about 1km away from the kätkö and tell them to search around. Geocatching is also an idea to bring people out in the nature to walk and enjoy the adventure of "modern treasure hunting."

 

Or, second solution. I can also take the coordinates of the kätkö and give them two options; the other way is to solve all the questions to get the coordinates, the second is simply to search around the local area. It helps if they are local people.

It would be highly unusual to list coordinates where the cache could be anywhere inside a circle with a radius of 1km. What is the terrain like? If it's salt flats from horizon to horizon, maybe a special exception could be made. Otherwise, people may find the wrong cache when searching an area of 10 square km. Be sure you have read and understand the guidelines:

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Hide a cache that is interesting to you. If you think finding a traffic sign would not be fun, try a different place. But that confused me since your Original Post was exactly about your plan to hide a cache in a traffic sign.

 

[EDIT: Sorry, my calculation was wrong. If you hide a cache "1 km away" from given coordinates, people must search the circumference only (plus or minus 10 meters), not the entire area of the circle. If the container is on a circular bike path, 2 km in diameter (radius x2), you could make it a Mystery Cache requiring a search along that entire path. It would still be highly unusual for that to be published. But if that circle is on the salt flats, and no other caches will be placed, an exception might be made, if it's an amazing one-of-a-kind cache. If you really like the circle idea, you can map that anywhere, and have people solve a puzzle based on that circle (which will then give coords to a container), rather than having to physically walk and hunt the whole circle.]

Edited October 6, 2011 by kunarion

[Manakala]

My historian/ law teacher told me that the worst possible thing to do would be to ask permission, since after that you will get a 100% no, no matter what arguments you have. I did that and got a no. Very well, I shall organize my treasure hunt somewhere else (for now), so you can lock this thread.

 

PS. The worst they can do for illegal "kätkö" here is probably trash it. The police have much more important thing to do than search and dispose geocaches.

[+Keelmann And Cici]

Actually, the worst thing that can happen is geocaching as a hobby gets a bad rep with your local officials. This can have negative impacts on a lot of people. The Virginia ban on geocaches on VDoT property, which is enforced, was created by a feud between two geocachers.

 

My advice, if you're in doubt as to whether it's allowed or not, and you think asking is a bad idea, then you're right to move on to another location. Just my two cents.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

How do I add the GPS part on that? It sounds really plain to give coordinates that lead to a box where you find a note that tells you to go to look for a signpost with a text on it... I don't think that would be very interesting. It would be much simpler to read a clue from the web and go straight to look for the signpost than go to a cache just to go to look for another cache. Or I start calling it from now on my native language, "kätkö".

 

What you're describing is typically published as an "offset" multi cache. You will need two sets of coordinates. One set for the location of the sign (and the cache page would tell others what to do with the information found there. The other set of coordinates would be for the location of the box or whatever kind of container you are using to hold the log book.

 

For example, You could submit a multi cache with the published coordinate for the cross roads sign. In the cache description you might write something like. Multiply the number of letters for the street the runs North/South by 13 and add it to the North Coordinate. Multiply the number of letters in the East/West street by 9 and add that number to the East Coordinate. The result will be the coordinates for the final container.

 

When submitting a cache listing for a multi-cache you must provide coordinates for both locations, and where the GPS comes in, is that at least one of the set of coordinates must be obtained using a GPS. What Groundspeak doesn't want is using a Mapping tool such as Google Maps to determine the coordinates. While Google Maps or some other online or desktop mapping application *can* produce accurate coordinates it's not universally reliable. I can show a photo of a cache I found in Costa Rica where all of the satellite photos I've found for the location show a area, several miles wide that is completely obscured by cloud cover. I've also been to places where the resolution of the images is so poor that it's impossible to identify a large building from all the pixelation, let alone a street sign.

 

 

Or, one solution. I can give the coordinates the kätkö is around, although this can ruin the whole experience of hunting. Maybe I just mark the coordinates about 1km away from the kätkö and tell them to search around. Geocatching is also an idea to bring people out in the nature to walk and enjoy the adventure of "modern treasure hunting."

 

 

What you're suggesting is referred to as using "soft coordinates". If you want to make a geocache more difficult to find, hide it better. Placing a cache, then intentionally publishing inaccurate coordinates is pretty much universally despised. The applicable guideline reads:

 

"Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the geocache site and obtain all the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and finding geocaches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions."

 

Or, second solution. I can also take the coordinates of the kätkö and give them two options; the other way is to solve all the questions to get the coordinates, the second is simply to search around the local area. It helps if they are local people.

 

If you want your cache to be found, you'll have to be a bit more specific that "search around the local area". Before you go out and place a cache I suggest that you read over the guidelines carefully, then read them again. There are several things that you are suggesting that would almost certainly result in your cache not being published.

[Tahosa and Sons]

It can be done. Look at this funny one here in AZ. Take your pick.

[+ArcherDragoon]

My historian/ law teacher told me that the worst possible thing to do would be to ask permission, since after that you will get a 100% no, no matter what arguments you have. I did that and got a no. Very well, I shall organize my treasure hunt somewhere else (for now), so you can lock this thread.

 

PS. The worst they can do for illegal "kätkö" here is probably trash it. The police have much more important thing to do than search and dispose geocaches.

 

Not asking because you want to avoid the answer is also a bad reason for not asking...

[Manakala]

Well, I could ask my relatives for their opinion, I could forget this idea and place it elsewhere or I could plant it there anyway and face the consequences (probably nothing).

 

Like Al Bundy said in Married with Children: "It's only cheating if you get caught."

[Manakala]

I have done some chatting with my relatives and have deciced how to work this out. This thread can be locked now.