Is sanctioned cheating at events common?

[+tozainamboku]

"Finds" are now a 'benefit' for some accomplishment not related to finding a cache??

 

They DID find the cache. The CACHE was the COMPETITION CACHE. Because the non-competitors kept messing things up, they had to create decoy caches further away. If you want to complain about something, complain about the non-competitors stealing the punches.

Even I don't buy this story. Do you really expect me to believe that the day of a big event some cachers are going out to find the cache used for the even that have a punch in them for a competition and are taking the punches because they think they are sway. Why not put a tag on the punch that says do not take. Or better yet, if these are new caches, have the reviewer hold off publication till after the event so only competitors can find them on event day, and the punches are removed before the caches are published.

 

No, this sounds like some silly cache owners allowing their caches to be logged for playing a game at an event that had nothing to do with finding the cache. It also sounds like you have some silly cachers who see the smiley they get this way as having some value that it clearly doesn't have. I may just laugh at this, but others will call them cheaters and question their integrity. And that's about the only thing I agree with you on. It seems just as silly to accuse people of ruining geocaching because they used the found log for something other then it was intended. I suspect the people who participated in this were having fun and enjoyed getting "credit" for their finds on gecoaching.com with the permission of the cache owners. There is no reason to think of them as cheaters. Doing so only supports the idea that the find count has some value and encourages cache owners to set up games like this.

[+joranda]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

[+fizzymagic]

It also sounds like you have some silly cachers who see the smiley they get this way as having some value that it clearly doesn't have.

 

You've never actually studied any economics, have you?

 

Here's a question to ponder: what sets the value of goods or services in a market economy? If people are willing to expend resources to obtain something, why do you think you get to tell them it doesn't have value? If people are willing to trade labor ("volunteering" at an event) to get smileys, then why do you continue to insist that they don't have value?

 

It's abundantly clear from the behavior of many cachers that they consider smileys to have value.

 

If you would prefer people to behave as if they did not have value, then a rational response would be to find ways to reduce their value.

 

Telling people that something they desire has no value has repeatedly been shown to be ineffective.

[+M 5]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

 

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a great event, that takes a lot to pull off. The TS was talking about 2 practices that happend at the event. Why not address those issues, instead of making up other issues?

[+joranda]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

 

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a great event, that takes a lot to pull off. The TS was talking about 2 practices that happend at the event. Why not address those issues, instead of making up other issues?

 

Then you need to go back and read every post cause you must have missed alot of stuff that has been said.

[+Manville Possum]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

I just threw my 2 cents worth in because of how one of the MOGA volunteers conducts themselves in the froums and they are a known and admitted armchair logger. I would expect this from the group, but one bad example can make a good group look bad.

[+niraD]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a great event, that takes a lot to pull off. The TS was talking about 2 practices that happend at the event. Why not address those issues, instead of making up other issues?

Then you need to go back and read every post cause you must have missed alot of stuff that has been said.

I just went back and read every post. AFAICS, no one criticized the event itself.

 

Some people criticized the "prize" awarded for winning the competition. To me, it sounds like the old silliness of posting multiple Attended logs to score smileys for temporary event caches, only more so because it involves armchair logging unrelated caches some distance from the event itself.

 

Some people criticized the "gift" offered to event volunteers, which is just as silly as the "prize" awarded for winning the competition.

 

A few suggested solutions to the problem PokerLuck described (non-competitors taking the punches used by the competition).

 

But no one criticized the event itself, or the effort required to organize a large event like that.

Edited April 5, 2011 by niraD

[+myotis]

joranda, since MOGA was sanctioning cheating by logging caches you did not find as a reward for finding the punches, I think claiming a "find" for finding a punch miles from the cache is more understandable than those who claimed finds for hiding punchs/caches. Are you saying because what you did was hard it justifies claiming a find on a cache you did not find? My paper carrier tosses my paper out in my yard. Can I claim a find on a cache for everytime I have had to go out in bad weather and find my paper under the snow? It seems to me the issue is not if the task is hard, the issue is if you found the cache.

[+tozainamboku]

It also sounds like you have some silly cachers who see the smiley they get this way as having some value that it clearly doesn't have.

 

You've never actually studied any economics, have you?

 

Here's a question to ponder: what sets the value of goods or services in a market economy? If people are willing to expend resources to obtain something, why do you think you get to tell them it doesn't have value? If people are willing to trade labor ("volunteering" at an event) to get smileys, then why do you continue to insist that they don't have value?

 

It's abundantly clear from the behavior of many cachers that they consider smileys to have value.

 

If you would prefer people to behave as if they did not have value, then a rational response would be to find ways to reduce their value.

 

Telling people that something they desire has no value has repeatedly been shown to be ineffective.

I realize that the fact that I think it is silly to believe that logging a find for these reasons is silly doesn't mean that someone else might not feel that logging a find for these reasons has value. I'm actually pretty sure that my calling it silly, or Jeremy calling it silly, isn't going to stop many people from doing this.

 

However, once I have decided that for me it is silly, then I have no reason to say that someone who logs these "finds" is cheating. They have simply created a bunch of Found It logs for a silly reason. Perhaps they get some pleasure from it. Who knows, maybe they do it because they enjoy being called liars and cheaters in the forums .

 

I think giving the find count more meaning that it actually has it what is what is silly. It leads to otherwise rationale cachers condemning their fellow cachers as liars and cheaters and spending hours in the forums telling us how disgusted they are. I believe the people who are doing these things are innocently using the logging mechanism of geocaching to record their "finds" at an event. They feel they found something or did a geocaching related task that is as much a part of their geocaching experience as any find. So they record the experience by logging a find. Those that object are taking a narrow view of a find as finding a cache that is listed on geocaching.com. I'm not sure that one opinion is right and the other isn't. But for those who only use the find log to record the caches they actually found, I don't believe calling someone a cheater is any more effective than telling someone they are silly. However, telling them they are cheaters reinforces the belief that the smiley is worth something.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Are caches now being filled with poison or something? What exactly is the driving force behind people inventing new ways to allow them to log caches but still be able to completely avoid actually going out to find the cache?

 

I know that events are a different animal and I'm fine with that...but at least with temporary caches, there were actual caches to find and cachers would go about finding them. How long until just attending an event garners you smileys for every cache hidden for the event...whether you looked or not? After all, you certainly wouldn't want to give up any of that precious time of sitting around a picnic table and talking about your find count...

[+joranda]

joranda, since MOGA was sanctioning cheating by logging caches you did not find as a reward for finding the punches, I think claiming a "find" for finding a punch miles from the cache is more understandable than those who claimed finds for hiding punchs/caches. Are you saying because what you did was hard it justifies claiming a find on a cache you did not find? My paper carrier tosses my paper out in my yard. Can I claim a find on a cache for everytime I have had to go out in bad weather and find my paper under the snow? It seems to me the issue is not if the task is hard, the issue is if you found the cache.

 

This is just my thought of why they did it the way they did this year with the cache not being as close to the punch like the other years, so don't take this as truth since for one, I am not part of the staff. The Rend Lake does not have as much land as the Mark Twain area does so to me, it looked like they had their hands tied as far as where they was allowed to place the caches so they had the pick one area for the competition and one area for the hundred premanent. The corp of engineers has a guideline that they have to work with and I am sure the was going by their guidelines too.

[+joranda]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a great event, that takes a lot to pull off. The TS was talking about 2 practices that happend at the event. Why not address those issues, instead of making up other issues?

Then you need to go back and read every post cause you must have missed alot of stuff that has been said.

I just went back and read every post. AFAICS, no one criticized the event itself.

 

Some people criticized the "prize" awarded for winning the competition. To me, it sounds like the old silliness of posting multiple Attended logs to score smileys for temporary event caches, only more so because it involves armchair logging unrelated caches some distance from the event itself.

 

Some people criticized the "gift" offered to event volunteers, which is just as silly as the "prize" awarded for winning the competition.

 

A few suggested solutions to the problem PokerLuck described (non-competitors taking the punches used by the competition).

 

But no one criticized the event itself, or the effort required to organize a large event like that.

 

Some you are saying that they are criticizing the staff right? The people who put the event on right? So in turn it is the event cause without the people who is putting on the event, there would be no event. Aren't you or others saying that the people putting on the event is allowing cachers to armchair caches that they say aren't there?

 

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache. So at the end of the two and a half hours I had 35 of the fifty punches so when it was done I knew that I still had 15 caches to find at the end of the day to find and sign the caches before I headed home after the weekend. And this is all done on foot, you are not allowed to use a car to get around while finding them.

[+briansnat]

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache. So at the end of the two and a half hours I had 35 of the fifty punches so when it was done I knew that I still had 15 caches to find at the end of the day to find and sign the caches before I headed home after the weekend. And this is all done on foot, you are not allowed to use a car to get around while finding them.

 

Sounds like fun, but how is it geocaching?

[+sbell111]

I am curious if sanctioned cheating at events is now a common practice or if MOGA is just an exception. There were two types of sanctioned cheating for the MOGA Mega Event. GC2EWFJ

 

The first (and IMHO the most egregious) was certain volunteers (I am not sure how they were picked) were told they could claim finds on caches they did not find as a reward for volunteering at the event. ...

 

As part of the event they have competition. Punches are hidden on the course and people who must pay a competition fee compete to find the punches. (I think it is great if people want to have a punch finding competition.) As a reward for their fee and finding punches, the competitors are allowed to claim a find on a caches they have not found. ...

If the logbook has not been signed, cache owners are allowed to determine whether a cache has been 'found' and allow online 'find' logs. They also have the authority to allow multiple finds on their caches. As such, there is no 'cheating' here. If you do not wish to log caches in the manner that you describe, don't do it. If you don't want these practices to go on during events you attend, don't go to those events. If you don't wish to hang out with people who enjoy these practices, go find yourself different friends.

[+DanOCan]

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache.

 

That says it all to me right there.

 

I don't even know which cache I can log as a Find until someone tells me which one is was supposed to be? Wow.

 

It's not how I would play the game, I guess. I could see myself saying "Well, I participated in the competition and I had fun doing it. I don't get to claim any smileys since I didn't find any actual Geocache, but at least I had a great experience."

 

I'm filing this in the same category as multiple Attended logs on a single event or logging each stage of a Multi as a Find. Another one of those things that shows why the only numbers that matter to me are my own.

[+Kryten]

Since it's not geocaching, the participants should simply take their new activity and log elsewhere.

[+bflentje]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

 

While I 100% agree with the "No Signature = No Find" philosophy, I have no problem with the way an event such as this was managed. There is no other reasonable way to accomodate everyone. I particpated as a casual cacher.

 

This entire thread, and those of you all whipped up, is just laughable.

[+Kameharem]

soon geocaching will break into different factions with the devout traditionalist who claim to be the true geochachers in the woods with their ammocans telling all other geocachers to give up their cheating ways because they will never find geonirvana if they don't cache the one true way and the new open cachers who accept everyone and all cache types regardless of how they choose to cache, they will be called the neogeocachers. they will protest at each other's events and file lawsuits to remove smiley's; it will be just like the real world, won't that be fun.

[+myotis]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

 

While I 100% agree with the "No Signature = No Find" philosophy, I have no problem with the way an event such as this was managed. There is no other reasonable way to accomodate everyone. I particpated as a casual cacher.

 

This entire thread, and those of you all whipped up, is just laughable.

 

No other reasonable way to acomidate everyone????? Why is not having the competition be finding caches instead of punchs not reasonable?

[Mr.Yuck]

soon geocaching will break into different factions with the devout traditionalist who claim to be the true geochachers in the woods with their ammocans telling all other geocachers to give up their cheating ways because they will never find geonirvana if they don't cache the one true way and the new open cachers who accept everyone and all cache types regardless of how they choose to cache, they will be called the neogeocachers. they will protest at each other's events and file lawsuits to remove smiley's; it will be just like the real world, won't that be fun.

 

I don't really see the relation between those of us who like ammo cans in the woods and the alleged cheating incident at this event. But what you described in your paragraph already happened. In 2004, when a website called Terracaching.com went online. No go out back by the dumpster, and lift that lampskirt, NeoGeocacher.

[+TheGrey]

Some you are saying that they are criticizing the staff right? The people who put the event on right? So in turn it is the event cause without the people who is putting on the event, there would be no event. Aren't you or others saying that the people putting on the event is allowing cachers to armchair caches that they say aren't there?

 

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache. So at the end of the two and a half hours I had 35 of the fifty punches so when it was done I knew that I still had 15 caches to find at the end of the day to find and sign the caches before I headed home after the weekend. And this is all done on foot, you are not allowed to use a car to get around while finding them.

 

So... you didn't find the actual cache listed on the cache page though? You found an alternative cache instead?

 

I'll try to stick with the "It doesn't affect me, so I shouldn't care" philosphy. However, this does effect other cachers. I often look at previous logs and finds/DNFs to determine what my caching experience will be like. Having these logs on the cache page skews the reality of what searching for these caches is like.

 

btw - I don't think anyone was argueing with your comments about a lot of work being put into the event, or that the event itself was difficult.

Edited April 5, 2011 by TheGrey

[+Sioneva]

Until any of you can go to a MOGA event and see how it really works cause reading your posts you have no clue what it takes to pull a huge event like this off to make it work for everyone. I have been there every year for the past five years and it has only gotten bigger and better each time. Come compete next year in Iowa where it will be held and then come back and throw in your two cents.

 

I went to MOGA. I didn't choose to compete this year, I was going to wait until next year.

 

I think next year, I'd rather go out and actually find the caches, instead of punches. More fun that way. Looks like I won't be competing next year either.

[+deercreekth]

Did you do the individual competition at this year's MOGA? I did, and many of the permanent caches I went after were much easier than what I went through during the 2.5 hour competition. I found a whopping 10 caches during this time. If I wanted to go after numbers I would've probably done better spending the 2.5 hours hitting up the park & grabs around the area. The permanent caches placed on ACoE land were in huge lock & lock containers, many of which could be seen from several yards away. The punches were placed in camoed pill bottles, and many of the ones I encountered were hidden very well. I got hung up in more thorns during the competition than I did during my casual caching. I definitely worked harder for my 10 competition finds than I did for 10 of my casual finds.

 

I knew that the punches were in different containers than the permanent caches associated with them when I signed up for the competition. I had it in my head that they were actually going to be near the permanent caches and were separate just so casual cachers would be able to find the permanent ones during the competition time. I didn't learn that the competition area was a completely separate area until I showed up for the competition. I found 10 caches that I feel were comparable to the 10 caches by the same owner I got to log. Claiming finds for volunteering? That's another story.

[+kunarion]

I am curious if sanctioned cheating at events is now a common practice or if MOGA is just an exception.

 

I don't know what a MOGA is, but there was a local Christmas party event cache in my area last year, and one game they did was that "White Elephant Gift Swap" game that groups like to do. Even with rules that at first seem very fair, there was lots of "bending" of the rules of that game, which gave great advantage to a select few. Bunch of dirty rotten cheaters, I tell you. The lot of them. Yep. Sanctioned cheating. Harrumph.

Edited April 5, 2011 by kunarion

[+briansnat]

I am curious if sanctioned cheating at events is now a common practice or if MOGA is just an exception.

 

I don't know what a MOGA is, but there was a local Christmas party event in my area last year, and one game they did was that "White Elephant Gift Swap" game that groups like to do. Even with rules that at first seem very fair, there was lots of "bending" of the rules of that game, which gave great advantage to a select few. Bunch of dirty rotten cheaters, I tell you. The lot of them. Yep. Sanctioned cheating. Harrumph.

 

Did they get to claim finds on caches for each gift?

[+kunarion]

I am curious if sanctioned cheating at events is now a common practice or if MOGA is just an exception.

 

I don't know what a MOGA is, but there was a local Christmas party event in my area last year, and one game they did was that "White Elephant Gift Swap" game that groups like to do. Even with rules that at first seem very fair, there was lots of "bending" of the rules of that game, which gave great advantage to a select few. Bunch of dirty rotten cheaters, I tell you. The lot of them. Yep. Sanctioned cheating. Harrumph.

 

Did they get to claim finds on caches for each gift?

No. But some gifts were coords to a brand new cache. And they didn't play fair to get it. Next time I'll take my ball and go home. *

 

*I'm not actually upset about the cheating. That particular game's designed as a cheaters' game. So I guess it's like sanctioned "sanctioned cheating".

Edited April 5, 2011 by kunarion

[+deercreekth]

GC2Q78J is an example of a cache that was very difficult and had numerous DNFs (including mine) that was being claimed as a find in exchange for volunteering.

 

Wow, people were claiming the kayak cache? That one appeared to be at least 100 feet out surrounded by water no sane person would attempt to walk through.

[+myotis]

Did you do the individual competition at this year's MOGA? I did, and many of the permanent caches I went after were much easier than what I went through during the 2.5 hour competition. I found a whopping 10 caches during this time. If I wanted to go after numbers I would've probably done better spending the 2.5 hours hitting up the park & grabs around the area. The permanent caches placed on ACoE land were in huge lock & lock containers, many of which could be seen from several yards away. The punches were placed in camoed pill bottles, and many of the ones I encountered were hidden very well. I got hung up in more thorns during the competition than I did during my casual caching. I definitely worked harder for my 10 competition finds than I did for 10 of my casual finds.

 

I knew that the punches were in different containers than the permanent caches associated with them when I signed up for the competition. I had it in my head that they were actually going to be near the permanent caches and were separate just so casual cachers would be able to find the permanent ones during the competition time. I didn't learn that the competition area was a completely separate area until I showed up for the competition. I found 10 caches that I feel were comparable to the 10 caches by the same owner I got to log. Claiming finds for volunteering? That's another story.

 

What is the difference in what you did and someone finding 50 easy caches, counting them as punches, and claiming first place? Would you object to someone winning the competition this way?

 

If I want to find a cache in each state, could I find caches near me and instead log caches of the same kind in another state?

[+deercreekth]

If I want to find a cache in each state, could I find caches near me and instead log caches of the same kind in another state?

 

If the cache you find and the cache you log is by the same owner, and they allow it, have fun.

[+wimseyguy]

I've heard from several sources that this is a fun event with a lot of effort put into it by the organizers. But this is a perfect example of how bad things happen when you introduce competition into an activity that isn't designed to have that aspect.

[+captnemo]

Geocaching is no longer about the find, its about the numbers.

 

Numbers are fine as long as they involve finding geocaches. Once you get away from that it's hard to call it geocaching anymore. What's next, giving out Found Its for

helping the CO do yard work?

Brilliant!! Now I know how I'm going to get my yard whipped into shape this spring. Thanks!!

Ok I'm paying one cache find per hour worked!

[+GeoGeeBee]

"Cheating" seems like an awfully strong word to describe an act that doesn't affect anyone other than the person doing it.

 

I wouldn't choose to play that game, but if others want to do it, it's really none of my business.

[+kunarion]

Geocaching is no longer about the find, its about the numbers.

 

Numbers are fine as long as they involve finding geocaches. Once you get away from that it's hard to call it geocaching anymore. What's next, giving out Found Its for

helping the CO do yard work?

It gets even better. Now events can give a prize of, say, a vacation in The Bahamas. But you only get to claim you went.

[+Manville Possum]

Geocaching is no longer about the find, its about the numbers.

I would have to agree. Armchair logging used to be something that no cacher would do, now it is common. I don't find it acceptable.

[+tozainamboku]

I've heard from several sources that this is a fun event with a lot of effort put into it by the organizers. But this is a perfect example of how bad things happen when you introduce competition into an activity that isn't designed to have that aspect.

As far as I can tell from the post here there was competition using separate caches with punches in them. I assume that the winner was determined by who had the most punches on their card at the end of the competition. Because the competition involved finding caches and, in past years, these were "official" geocaching.com caches that could be logged online as well, the event organizers and cache owners gave permission to log some "official" geocaching.com cache for each of the caches found in the competition. I'm going to assume that whether you logged these caches or not had nothing to do with the competition.

 

What is comes down to are one group of cachers who believe the online find log is a "sacred cow" that must not be used except for the purpose of logging "official" geocaching.com cache that you found and another group that feels that logging a find on another cache may be used to record a geocaching related experience that one feels is "equivalent" to finding a cache. What I find silly is one group calling the other cheaters and complaining that the "numbers" have made geocaching competitive. Geocaching is what you make it. If you don't want to compete then don't pay attention to anyone else's number. If you want to compete but only against those in the group that only logs "official" caches that they found, then become aware of what others are doing and compete only against those whose logging practices you know and approve of.

[+TheSapaFamily]

I'll try to stick with the "It doesn't affect me, so I shouldn't care" philosphy. However, this does effect other cachers. I often look at previous logs and finds/DNFs to determine what my caching experience will be like. Having these logs on the cache page skews the reality of what searching for these caches is like.

 

I agree with this. I was at MOGA and cachers logging caches they didn't find definitely annoyed and effected me. I wouldn't have wasted my time trying the "kayak" one but I looked at the log ahead of time and several people found it without mentioning an issue so we drove to it but quickly realized it was next to impossible to find. At the time I was amazed at how dedicated cachers were to brave the water. Now I realize they were just lazy cheaters.

[+A & J Tooling]

I thought someone volunteered didn't get paid? Since people associate smilies as a payment of sorts, they weren't volunteers, right?

 

So, what would it cost me to get a few thousand volunteer points? Hmm? (joke)

[+myotis]

I've heard from several sources that this is a fun event with a lot of effort put into it by the organizers. But this is a perfect example of how bad things happen when you introduce competition into an activity that isn't designed to have that aspect.

As far as I can tell from the post here there was competition using separate caches with punches in them. I assume that the winner was determined by who had the most punches on their card at the end of the competition. Because the competition involved finding caches and, in past years, these were "official" geocaching.com caches that could be logged online as well, the event organizers and cache owners gave permission to log some "official" geocaching.com cache for each of the caches found in the competition. I'm going to assume that whether you logged these caches or not had nothing to do with the competition.

 

What is comes down to are one group of cachers who believe the online find log is a "sacred cow" that must not be used except for the purpose of logging "official" geocaching.com cache that you found and another group that feels that logging a find on another cache may be used to record a geocaching related experience that one feels is "equivalent" to finding a cache. What I find silly is one group calling the other cheaters and complaining that the "numbers" have made geocaching competitive. Geocaching is what you make it. If you don't want to compete then don't pay attention to anyone else's number. If you want to compete but only against those in the group that only logs "official" caches that they found, then become aware of what others are doing and compete only against those whose logging practices you know and approve of.

 

To get a cache published, you have to agree to the rules including deleting "bogus" finds. The finds are bogus-they did not find the cache or sign the log. You can also look at all the 135 caches for the event. The cache pages do not say, if you volunteer at MOGA you can log this cache for your service. They also do not say if you pay us money, we will let you find a punch in a flatter area that is much easier to get through and claim a "find" for the cache. If they had, the caches would not have been published. You can also take a look at the event page. It does not disclose getting to claim "finds" for finding punches or volunteering.

 

Anothner interesting tibit is a while back someone logged a bunch of MOGA caches from a previous event that appeared to be bogus (it sounded like they were being logged as a find without finding them). The MOGA staff publically called out this geocaher for this. I guess the problem was he did not pay his fee or volunteer enough to claim the caches without finding them.

[+The Jester]

I can't get upset in the least about the whole issue. So they set up caches with two different ways to find and log. I've found a cache nearby that has the same set up: there's one hard container and one easier container (different trails). You can sign either (or both if you like) to log the cache. Only one of those is the "listed" co-ords, but both are part of the same cache. Different? Yes. Cheating? No. Same thing with the compition/permenant containers under discussion.

[knowschad]

No... sanctioned cheating at events is not common.

[+KoosKoos]

How are logging the "punches" on real caches different than the pocket caches that people used to bring to events and allow people to log the real cache wherever it was located? (See the controversy over Geowoodstock IV that led to a lot of cache archiving over this)

 

If find multi-logging events to track temporary caches silly, but at least it's tied only to that event and not real caches out in the field (which you didn't find).

 

There was a lot of comment in this thread over similar practices: The New Numbers Game

 

And Jeremy weighed in with his thoughts on the pocket caches.

[Clan Riffster]

Two thoughts...

 

I am curious if sanctioned cheating at events is now a common practice

Neither example you gave constitutes cheating. Just because a behavior is laughably silly, does not mean it's cheating. Groundspeak does not define what constitutes a find. There are some folks who believe if they hunt for a cache that is determined to be missing, they should get a find. There are folks who think that if they can't reach a cache, but they did locate it, they should get a find. There are folks who think that, if they cannot open a cache to sign the log, they should get a find. After the whole E.T. Highway debacle, we saw that there were even folks who think that simply driving down a particular road, stopping off every thousand feet or so constitutes finds on caches placed every five hundred feet or so. If a cacher claims a find, regardless of what they actually did, and the cache owner accepts that find, it is not cheating.

 

Silly? Yes. Contemptuous? Perhaps. Cheating? No.

 

I dd not think event organizers could overrule the rules of geocaching.

You've been playing this game for ten years, and you don't know the difference between rules and guidelines?

 

While we're on the topic, does anyone know the going rate for logging finds on the Trifecta?

I'm sure it would be cheaper than buying plane tickets to Seattle.

[+the4dirtydogs]

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache. So at the end of the two and a half hours I had 35 of the fifty punches so when it was done I knew that I still had 15 caches to find at the end of the day to find and sign the caches before I headed home after the weekend. And this is all done on foot, you are not allowed to use a car to get around while finding them.

 

Sounds like fun, but how is it geocaching?

That is what I'm saying too. How is this geocaching? Your not finding any caches your finding hole punches. I understand the theory behind the race but I really think it's lame to claim caches that you didn't find and sign the log. It seems to me that you don't even need caches for this compition just hole punches. Why even have any caches linked to this race at all. It's the punches your after not the cache itself. We have the Rough Neck events down in Ocotillo Wells and they have a BUNCH of temp caches that we don't claim finds. I'm pretty sure people will keep doing these MOGA events even if they don't get credit for finds. It's the CHAMP status people want.

[+sbell111]

I thought someone volunteered didn't get paid? Since people associate smilies as a payment of sorts, they weren't volunteers, right?

 

So, what would it cost me to get a few thousand volunteer points? Hmm? (joke)

We organize the occasional (nongeocaching) volunteer event. We often buy pizza or something for the volunteers. Even though we gave them something, they are still volunteers.

[+sbell111]

nevermind

Edited April 5, 2011 by sbell111

[+myotis]

Clan Riffster

 

Your other examples are where the cacher was at least near the cache. In all those cases you could at least make a lame argument that you found it. In this case they were miles from the caches. The cache page description does not allow what they did. They are paying a fee to do something entirely different and claim the "find" as a reward. There is no rationale way to agrue that consittutes finding the cache. Cache oweners are required to delete bogus logs. This certianly is bogus. Additionally, there is also the commerical aspect. The examples you give are not the cacher paying a fee or donating time in exchange for a "find." Remember to claim a find this way, you have to either pay MOGA a copetition fee or volunteer your time at an event MOGA is chaging regestration fees for. (NOTE: The ACOE paid for the cache containers and contents.

 

Edit-fixed typo

Edited April 5, 2011 by myotis

[+niraD]

Some you are saying that they are criticizing the staff right? The people who put the event on right? So in turn it is the event cause without the people who is putting on the event, there would be no event. Aren't you or others saying that the people putting on the event is allowing cachers to armchair caches that they say aren't there?

Surely there was more to the event than "rewarding" competition winners and volunteers with armchair logs, right? Commenting on the absurdity of this "reward" is not the same thing as criticizing the event as a whole or belittling the effort of the volunteers who made the event happen.

 

How it really works is that you get credit for each cache that you punch on your competition card. At the end of MOGA they let you know which cache goes for that punch you found so that way you get credit for the cache. So at the end of the two and a half hours I had 35 of the fifty punches so when it was done I knew that I still had 15 caches to find at the end of the day to find and sign the caches before I headed home after the weekend. And this is all done on foot, you are not allowed to use a car to get around while finding them.

I'm confused. Were the event's "punch" caches listed at geocaching.com, and you just needed to be told which "punch" code corresponded to which GC code? Or were the event's "punch" caches just temporary caches, and you needed to be told which real cache (located elsewhere) to log for each of the temporary caches you found?

[Clan Riffster]

Your other examples are where the cacher was at least near the cache.

Sorry Brother, but I don't consider proximity to be a reasonable excuse to not following standard protocols. Whether I am 30' from a cache or 3000' from a cache, if I didn't even look for it, it's not a find, in my book. What I was pointing out was, in the case of the E.T. Trail caches, this behavior was allowed, and even encouraged by the cache owner, and defended in these forums by numerous cachers. Just because you and I don't think a particular action should be counted as a find, doesn't mean Groundspeak won't allow it as a find. That decision is mostly between the cache owner and the cache logger. The financial aspect just adds to the overall cheesiness.

 

This certianly is bogus.

Bogus is subjective. This behavior you speak of is something that neither of us would ever participate in, because, in our mind, it's not geocaching. However, if the cache owner allows it, it doesn't quite fit the definition of bogus. Groundspeak may take a stance on this, as they did with pocket caches, but until they do, these finds are valid. Cheesy, but valid.

[+TheMadChef]

Obviously Myotis, you have lost too much sleep over this concern! Yes I am and have been on the MOGA staff for six years now! Yes I have been the director of the competition at MOGA for the past four years and yes I am sick and tired of you pissing and moaning about everything that SLAGA or MOGA does! Save us the time and just quit!

 

It had been a standard to find the punches of the competition in a cache container ammo can! In past years we had temporary containers, and you would log the event however many times you found punches! But that wasn't right so we changed it! Then our numbers at MOGA started to grow! We had complaints about people who didn't want to compete wanted to find caches at the same time as the competition so he added more! We only started assigning caches with the punches so that way we didn't have an abundance of cachers who were just caching and not competing at the cache container during the competition! It wouldn't be fair to the people who competed!

 

The one reason why MOGA was started was because of the competition! It is the one reason why MOGA stands out from the rest of the events out there!!!

 

Now I know of no one who physically gave me money to sign a logbook! They paid an entrance fee of 5 dollars to offset the costs of the really cool competition medals!!! But if you want to give me 5 bucks and log all the caches I have placed I really don't care! At least i would have 5 bucks!

 

NOw I know in the past when caches were temporary and we had to physically place them and retrieve within a week after the event. We had allowed staff members to log the caches if they wished since they did not have the time to find them since they were working the event. If they placed caches or retrieved them we allowed them to log them also! That has not been to my knowledge the accepted practice in the past few years with permenant caches being placed!

 

What I do know is if you volunteered to place or pick up the punches with the containers (yes there was a physical container with the punch) we allowed to log the cache associated!!! By the way there were not that many people who did this! Yes, I was one of those you picked up the punches! and no I haven't even logged a single cache for the past 4 events! In the past six years I have placed over 100 caches myself! I have probably pick up over 100 punches! and no I haven't gotten credit for any of it! But would I do it again, you betcha'!

 

You say you volunteered, but once again when you volunteer for something you should help out in any way you can, not come with a hidden agenda! Then when you don't like it you take your cache and go home! I have spent endless amounts of time trying to make everyone who attends MOGA have the best time possible! Sometimes things don't run that smoothly but in the end most and I mean most participants of MOGA say they have a great time and come back the next year! In fact I don't remember seeing you at MOGA! Were you there? If not why complain?

 

So in the end Myotis, if you want someone to blame then blame me and stop the verbal attacks of the MOGA staff and volunteers! In fact I am retiring from being on Staff at MOGA so you shouldn't have anything to complain about now! For the very few people who agree with you, I truly hope they can bring you some piece of mind?

 

SO QUIT CALLING US CHEATERS!

 

TheMadChef

Chief MOGA Whipping Boy

[+Manville Possum]

I've heard from several sources that this is a fun event with a lot of effort put into it by the organizers. But this is a perfect example of how bad things happen when you introduce competition into an activity that isn't designed to have that aspect.

 

Amen. How true it is.