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Challenge Cheaters? What is your take?


canalcache
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:sad: ok... i am relatively new to the world of Geocaching.... Be that as it may, i have quickly inserted myself into the very largely populated caching community in the Seattle area...

 

One thing I have noticed, other that the "clickish" puzzle teams and other interesting "unions", is the few people out there in our region that have been signing log books , but leave no date...

 

I am sure I could call the people out on the forum and start a whole debate... and trust me, those people in question will get an email...

 

but really all I want is some feedback...

 

Do i need to police people that I think are cheating?

 

For instance... I was thinking about starting a few challenges, streak challenge... bakers dozens, etc.. and so forth...

 

Most challenges require people to proclaim a start date and then it starts....

 

people not dating the log have the ability to peck and choose which date they NEED the cache for...

 

Hardly a worthy move by a TRUE GEOCACHER

 

I say BRAVO to all of you that ACCURATELY LOG ALL FINDS AND SL WITH A DATE OF FINDING...

 

 

Thanks for your time..

 

Happy Caching !!!

Edited by canalcache
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B) Do i need to police people that I think are cheating?

 

No. If it's not your cache, you shouldn't police it. Secondly, if they signed the log, they are not cheating.

 

 

It is cheating if the cache that is logged is being used to FULLFILL a requirement , such as a streak or challenge of some sort...

 

I have come across MANY MANY MANY undated signatures and notice that they log it with a date after I logged mine... AND THEY WERE THERE BEFORE ME... WHAT???

 

What is the point of a challenge if people are going to LIE about the dates that the cache was actually found..

 

Seems [potty language removed by moderator] and cheaterific to me..

 

Just sayin...

Edited by Keystone
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It's 3:30 in the morning, and you're whipped up to the point of cussing because of the dates scribbled (or non-scribbled) on a strip of paper inside a tiny tupperware in the woods.

 

Allow me to suggest that (1) you refrain from potty language, and (2) you read my signature line quote below. Thank you.

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Challenge Cheaters? What is your take?, Wanting to know others experiences in finding log cheaters for challen

 

I take all of geocaching with a large dose of laughter.

I got into it for FUN. If I'm not grinning, what's the point?

 

I can't imagine trying to match online logs to dates on logs! nuts.

I don't generally date my sigs, and I log when i get to it. I do try to log dates accurately, but I suspect I've got caches dated on the day I logged online, and not the day of find.

 

There's squat you can do about it in any case. If you were to place a date-ranged challenge, you can't require log signatures to have dates with them. So relax.

 

My assorted accounts own 3 challenge caches.

 

Cheating on those = zero.

 

One novice logger who didn't understand, and logged it cause they found it.

I did not threaten them with log deletion. I did sent a nice email. They (eventually) changed Found to Note.

One guy who still hasn't created a bookmarked list (he does have the finds). If he never does anything about that log, I'm not sure that I will. I'm not going to sweat it...

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It's 3:30 in the morning, and you're whipped up to the point of cussing because of the dates scribbled (or non-scribbled) on a strip of paper inside a tiny tupperware in the woods.

 

Allow me to suggest that (1) you refrain from potty language, and (2) you read my signature line quote below. Thank you.

B):anibad::o

 

Worrying about what geocachers do is like herding cats, and as effective as nailing jelly to a tree.

 

When you find yourself frustrated repeat Rambler's Mantra:

 

The best thing about geocaching is that anyone can play.

The worst thing about geocaching is...that anyone can play!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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A "TRUE GEOCACHER" is able to recognize that geocaching isn't a competition. I suggest you focus on your experience and stop worrying about how others play the game.

 

Agreed. Big time.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

To the OP:

 

Hmmm. What's this say:

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

 

Nothing in there about an accurate time/datestamp requirement for the logging - prolly because it doesn't really matter much.

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I'm afraid that the level of Control that the OP is suggesting would just suck the fun right out of this activity for me B)

 

Personally, I leave it up to the Cache Owners to police their Listings. In the case of an absent or unresponsive Cache Owner, the Listing should get Archived.

 

I work from a pretty simple Rubric :anibad:

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Dates seem largely irrelevant to me as the important thing is that the cacher was there. I can't tell you how many times I wrote the wrong date on a log by accident.

 

Then there was a period of time when many loggers who were using the Geocaching App on their phones were having their logs posted with the following day's date.

 

My pet peeve is the cachers who sign their logs with a large stamp and then stamp it sideways on a small log sheet and take up several signing spots. B)

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I think what canalcache is worried about is for example, a challenge cache where one needs to find a cache each day for so many days before being qualified. So if someone is mucking with the date he/she found a cache then finds the challenge cache, did he/she really qualify? Probably not.

 

Oh, and those guidelines people have been posting here about only needing a sig on the log. Check again, because that is not the case for challenge caches.

 

I agree, it is frustrating for those of us that do meet the requirements. But then again, is it really worth fretting over? Probably not.

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I agree with others that I wouldn't stress about cheating, but I think some people are misunderstanding his question.

He is talking about challenge caches where the date is relevant.

I wouldn't stress about it, but I wouldn't say they aren't cheating or that dates don't matter in this case.

Just that its none of my business if they don't want to have the full experience.

They only cheat themselves.

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I agree with others that I wouldn't stress about cheating, but I think some people are misunderstanding his question.

He is talking about challenge caches where the date is relevant.

I wouldn't stress about it, but I wouldn't say they aren't cheating or that dates don't matter in this case.

Just that its none of my business if they don't want to have the full experience.

They only cheat themselves.

 

Correct. And he's also talking about challenges he himself is thinking of creating. Not like he's going around being the self-appointed Geo Police. At least I don't think he is. B)

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To the OP:

 

Hmmm. What's this say:

 

Logging of All Physical Caches

 

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed

 

Nothing in there about an accurate time/datestamp requirement for the logging - prolly because it doesn't really matter much.

This guy has already indicated a propensity to see cheaters degrading the game and ruining his fun. No need to quote section of the guidelines out of context that he can later misinterpret to show that geocache cheating is rampant and degrading the game. The statement you quote is simply an instruction to cache finders to go ahead and log that find online regardless as to any additional requirements that a cache owner may have for logging a find. It does not indicate when or if the cache owner can or cannot delete logs - though it seems to permit logs to be deleted by a cache owner when the physical log has not been signed.

 

Elsewhere the guidelines talk about Challenge Caches

Challenge caches incorporate special logging requirements and are listed as Mystery/Puzzle caches. Typically they require the seeker to have previously met a reasonable geocaching-related qualification (Waymarking and Wherigo qualify too, of course) such as first finding a cache in every county in your state.

 

Clarification posted in this forum has indicated that Challenge Caches are a particular case where cache owners can delete logs of finders if they have not completed the challenge. Additional information on Challenge Caches is found in the Groundspeak Knowledge Books. In particular

Importantly, cache owners must consider how they will substantiate claims that the challenge has been met. The logging requirements on the cache page must reflect this consideration, and must be logistically viable.

If the challenge involves finding caches on certain dates or within a certain period of time, the cache owner will have to indicate on the cache page how these dates will be verified. Saying that you are going to check the dates in the physical logbook may be deemed by the reviewer to not be logistically viable. In general, challenges that have date requirements go by the honor system and accept the date the caches were logged online at the time the challenged cache was found. Some people may cheat and change the dates of their logs to meet a challenge. That's the breaks, you can't go trying to enforce some stricter rule simply because that would not be "logistically viable".

Edited by tozainamboku
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Do i need to police people that I think are cheating?

 

I often forget to date the logs I've signed for a number of reasons. But everyone of the several dozen challenges I've completed are all legit. A log that is not dated could have been caused by a number of reasons.

 

From the Getting started

 

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

1. Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

2. Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

 

I rarely see anyone leaving a few words especially on nanos.

 

I use the original Getting started page because that is what I started with 6 years ago

Step 4 – The Find

Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what?

 

Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book.

Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache.

 

Edited to clarify

Edited by FunnyNose
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Do i need to police people that I think are cheating?

 

I often forget to date the logs I've signed for a number of reasons. But everyone of the several dozen challenges I've completed are all legit. A log that is not dated could have been caused by a number of reasons.

 

From the Getting started

 

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

1. Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

2. Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

 

I rarely see anyone leaving a few words especially on nanos.

 

I prefer the original Getting started page

 

Step 4 – The Find

Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what?

 

Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache.

 

HUGE B)

 

You have to love the ol' passive aggressive whip out the guidelines trick. If I fully signed and dated a nano, there wouldn't be much room for anyone else. On that same note, when I am leaving my mark on the wadded pile of wet paper mush, I hardly worry about the date.

 

I don't think you're implying anything in regards to my completed challenges but if you are, I CHALLENGE YOU (the collective you) to go through every one of them make sure I properly qualify.

It'll be fun to see how much time you waste just to see that I am more than truthful.

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It's 3:30 in the morning, and you're whipped up to the point of cussing because of the dates scribbled (or non-scribbled) on a strip of paper inside a tiny tupperware in the woods.

 

Allow me to suggest that (1) you refrain from potty language, and (2) you read my signature line quote below. Thank you.

B):anibad::o

 

Worrying about what geocachers do is like herding cats, and as effective as nailing jelly to a tree.

 

When you find yourself frustrated repeat Rambler's Mantra:

 

The best thing about geocaching is that anyone can play.

The worst thing about geocaching is...that anyone can play!

 

I LIKE THAT... THANKS!

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I think what canalcache is worried about is for example, a challenge cache where one needs to find a cache each day for so many days before being qualified. So if someone is mucking with the date he/she found a cache then finds the challenge cache, did he/she really qualify? Probably not.

 

Oh, and those guidelines people have been posting here about only needing a sig on the log. Check again, because that is not the case for challenge caches.

 

I agree, it is frustrating for those of us that do meet the requirements. But then again, is it really worth fretting over? Probably not.

 

 

THANKS FOR SEEING MY POINT... AND THANKS TO ALL FOR REPLYING..... I KNEW THAT NOT WORRYING ABOUT THEM WAS THE EASY THING... I DO LOVE TO GEOCACHE.... SOMETIMES MY COMPETITIVE JUICES KICK IN ( EX COLLEGE ATHLETE) AND WHEN I SEE PEOPLE FIBBING ON A CHALLENGE CACHE..... SUCH AS DATE ALTERING... ITS JUST FRUSTRATING...

 

I REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WITH SAY ... 17,000 FINDS WOULD NOT NEED TO CHEAT... MAYBE AGE AND SINILITY KICKS IN WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MANY FINDS!!

 

HAPPY CACHING FOLKS!!!

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If I am lucky enough to find a log book, that is an actual notebook with blank pages I will write a long note commenting on my trip there, maybe the weather and certainly the date (although my watch is messed up and today says the date is the 25th).

If on the other hand, I have a damp piece of coiled up confetti stuffed into a blinkie, I can barely get my initials written let alone my whole name. I've skipped the date on some of those.

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THANKS FOR SEEING MY POINT... AND THANKS TO ALL FOR REPLYING..... I KNEW THAT NOT WORRYING ABOUT THEM WAS THE EASY THING... I DO LOVE TO GEOCACHE.... SOMETIMES MY COMPETITIVE JUICES KICK IN ( EX COLLEGE ATHLETE) AND WHEN I SEE PEOPLE FIBBING ON A CHALLENGE CACHE..... SUCH AS DATE ALTERING... ITS JUST FRUSTRATING...

 

I REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WITH SAY ... 17,000 FINDS WOULD NOT NEED TO CHEAT... MAYBE AGE AND SINILITY KICKS IN WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MANY FINDS!!

 

HAPPY CACHING FOLKS!!!

I would be willing to bet that it's more sloppiness than fibbing. Throw your challenges up and let them take their own course with respect to logging. If people cheat, they're only cheating themselves. Getting rabid and firing off emails seems a little over the top.

 

And what's up with the all caps?

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One thing I have noticed[...] is the few people out there in our region that have been signing log books , but leave no date...
FWIW, I've been on group hikes where the first person to sign wrote the date and their name (and perhaps a few comments), and then everyone else passed the log around and wrote just their names (and perhaps a few comments). Sometimes, everyone used their own pen/pencil, and clearly they were written in different handwriting. It could be interpreted that several of us signed without dating our logs, but that wouldn't be accurate.

 

For instance... I was thinking about starting a few challenges, streak challenge... bakers dozens, etc.. and so forth...

 

Most challenges require people to proclaim a start date and then it starts....

Interesting. The date of a find has been relatively insignificant for most of the challenge caches I've seen. They're usually about finding caches with certain difficulty-terrain combinations (e.g., fizzy challenges), or about finding caches in certain locations (e.g., counties, USGS quads, Delorme pages), or about finding caches with certain names (e.g., alphabet challenges), or things like that.

 

But with that said, few people find challenge caches, so even if the date a cache was logged was important for most challenge caches, that would be irrelevant for most people.

 

I don't see a problem with undated logs, except possibly for the very few people who find challenge caches that use log dates. And even then, it's between them and the challenge cache owner. I certainly won't worry about it.

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Saying that you are going to check the dates in the physical logbook may be deemed by the reviewer to not be logistically viable. In general, challenges that have date requirements go by the honor system and accept the date the caches were logged online at the time the challenged cache was found.

Agreed, especially if the caches being used to qualify are from all over the place. I don't see it being physically possible to check every log book to see if someone signed in.

 

Plus, this raises the question of what happens if the owner of the caches being used for the challenge archives the cache or replaces the log book because it's full. It would be impossible for the challenge owner to verify at that point.

 

From the Getting started

 

Step 4 – The Actual Find

Hurray! You found your first geocache. Congratulations! Now what?

 

1. Take note of the style and method of this hide. Where did this geocache bring you? Enjoy the location.

2. Sign the logbook with your name, the date, and a few words about your experience.

The knowledge base goes on to state that "Some people prefer to enter just their name into the log book."

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THANKS FOR SEEING MY POINT... AND THANKS TO ALL FOR REPLYING..... I KNEW THAT NOT WORRYING ABOUT THEM WAS THE EASY THING... I DO LOVE TO GEOCACHE.... SOMETIMES MY COMPETITIVE JUICES KICK IN ( EX COLLEGE ATHLETE) AND WHEN I SEE PEOPLE FIBBING ON A CHALLENGE CACHE..... SUCH AS DATE ALTERING... ITS JUST FRUSTRATING...

 

I REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WITH SAY ... 17,000 FINDS WOULD NOT NEED TO CHEAT... MAYBE AGE AND SINILITY KICKS IN WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MANY FINDS!!

 

HAPPY CACHING FOLKS!!!

I would be willing to bet that it's more sloppiness than fibbing. Throw your challenges up and let them take their own course with respect to logging. If people cheat, they're only cheating themselves. Getting rabid and firing off emails seems a little over the top.

 

And what's up with the all caps?

 

 

Thanks for the input...

 

The caps was a mistake... I am definitely not yelling at anyone.. I didnt even notice capslock was on.. lol

 

Again.. .thanks to all for their comments.

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Importantly, cache ownersmust consider how they will substantiate claims that the challenge has been met. The logging requirements on the cache page must reflect this consideration, and must be logistically viable.

 

There is a challenge cache within 2 miles of me that has cachers find all caches in the park. One is on an island. The cache on the island has been found around 17 times. The challenge cache found over 20 times. I kindly pointed out the discrepency to the cachers and the owner. I then left it alone.

 

I know I have wrote the wrong date down before, and there are times were I may have left the date off compeltly. Not to mention stolen caches, ruined logs, replaced logs, etc. The online log is the only way to verify finds for a challenge cache. If someone wants to cheat themselves by not doing the challenge then let them.

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I've done challenges where the dates of my finds were integral, so I understand how "date cheating" could potentially be an issue. But let me see if I've got the logistics right....

 

Say I put no dates in any of the logbooks when I sign my name, but I do log my finds online (which necessarily assigns a date). Then someday in the future when a challenge cache gets published, and one of the requirements is that all my finds for the challenge be after the date of publication, I would then go back and edit online logs to put a new date in? So my old finds would qualify for the new challenge? But that leaves an "edit" thing on all the online logs that I did this on - which would be an easy way for the challenge CO to know that I've cheated (if every single one, or even most, of my claimed finds for this challenge had edited online logs).

 

Now if I never logged any of those finds online, then I could see this cheat method working (although some observant cachers might notice that I've claimed a really old find for this brand new challenge--and they might know for sure it's a really old find for me because they remember seeing my signature in the logbook way up there ahead of theirs), but if I'm the sort of person who would cheat on a challenge, then would I have the patience to save up a bunch of non-dated, non-logged-online finds that maybe one day I could pull out of my hat for future challenges? I doubt it.

 

In other words, it doesn't sound like a very effective way of cheating. I just don't see the above scenarios as being likely - I think it's more likely that people are leaving the date off for reasons other than potential future cheating.

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terrkan, more like this:

 

Challenge cache requires me to find a cache each day in October. I have to leave on a trip from October 29-31 and can't do any caching on those days. So instead of waiting until next year, I just simply find 4 caches on October 28th and log them online one at a time each day. No way to verify if I really found them on those days or not without the date.

 

I do agree, though, that it is highly more likely that the dates were left off for other reasons than to cheat on a challenge. But even if it were, it wouldn't have any affect on my enjoyment.

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It's amazing how many cacher's try to cheat & do cheat the system! I have already got approval for multiple challenge caches that will be strategically placed to put a twist on completing challenges manly blackouts and streaks of any kind.

 

These challenges have been placed right in the center of blackouts, requiring the cacher to "not" log a find for 1 day, 1 week and 1 month.... etc... To quality for the cache final they will have to clearly show they have taken a break from caching! Hopefully it will give them a better look at who, what, when & where they cache!

 

As for policing those challenges I'm luck to have a few final caches I can see everyone that touches it, motion based security system from a very near by company's that I installed systems for, If I call you out you should know your already in the line up date & time now lets see if it's really you! One of my current caches has the same motion based security system, I can show every single person that has even reached for the cache including the date & time! Though I haven't felt the need to do any policing yet! It would be more then easy to do it! If I ever feel the need I'll post every single person that has been to the cache on the caches page! Good Luck Cheat That!

 

I don't know about the camera laws in other states but ours says it's a 2 party so the company owner's & I know so there you go! I can think of many ways that a cacher and or co could police a cache, yea we are on the honor system & it's pretty obvious not as many as you think have any honor in this game!

 

I'm just tossing fuel on the fire don't mind me.... B)

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I will also reply in a private forum... just so everyone knows... I am not meaning any ill intent towards anyone... My use of a number was an error and in no way signifies specific people.... I am sorry that I brought some emotion into the subject, and I should not have use phrases as BREWERMD so specifically pointed out. I am wrong in those words...and I apologize.

 

I wanted this to be a forum of discussion about a TECHNICALITY I was interested in...

 

I am a technical person... maybe not like some Trackable junkies we know... but alas... I like to feel like everyone had to do what I went through to achieve a challenge..

 

I am taking a backseat... my words have been said...

 

I think I need to go find a cache... hope you all find a cache too:)

 

Thanks..

 

Cancalcache

Edited by canalcache
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While it is fun to debate what is or is not a find or how such and such a practice is cheating or not while here in the forums I don't make it a practice to police others. The only time I delete logs is if the logger mentions breaking the rules or the law or they double log or some other blatant action. I didn't even ask cachers to prove that they qualify for the one challenge I placed. Most list the caches that they found to qualify, but that is totally up to them.

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It's amazing how many cacher's try to cheat & do cheat the system! I have already got approval for multiple challenge caches that will be strategically placed to put a twist on completing challenges manly blackouts and streaks of any kind.

 

These challenges have been placed right in the center of blackouts, requiring the cacher to "not" log a find for 1 day, 1 week and 1 month.... etc... To quality for the cache final they will have to clearly show they have taken a break from caching! Hopefully it will give them a better look at who, what, when & where they cache!

 

As for policing those challenges I'm luck to have a few final caches I can see everyone that touches it, motion based security system from a very near by company's that I installed systems for, If I call you out you should know your already in the line up date & time now lets see if it's really you! One of my current caches has the same motion based security system, I can show every single person that has even reached for the cache including the date & time! Though I haven't felt the need to do any policing yet! It would be more then easy to do it! If I ever feel the need I'll post every single person that has been to the cache on the caches page! Good Luck Cheat That!

 

I don't know about the camera laws in other states but ours says it's a 2 party so the company owner's & I know so there you go! I can think of many ways that a cacher and or co could police a cache, yea we are on the honor system & it's pretty obvious not as many as you think have any honor in this game!

 

I'm just tossing fuel on the fire don't mind me.... B)

 

Good luck getting that through review.

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canalcache, I like how you're handling yourself. You started off all fired up like a car launching from the start line at a drag race, but you seem to be open to suggestions and carrying on a good conversation. That's sometimes hard in a forum where it's easy for emotions to run high and people to look at everything as a personal attack. Good job! B)

 

Here's the way I see it. Obviously, as a cache owner and a cache finder, we don't want people to cheat. It takes away from those who worked hard to do things right and find the cache as intended.

 

Obviously, if someone clearly cheats, I think it's important to delete their log. I've only deleted 2 logs. One was where someone with 5 finds found my A-Z challenge cache that requires finders to find a cache starting with every letter of the alphabet. Obviously, with 5 finds, they couldn't have found 26. Before removing their log, I emailed them and told them what the cache was about and asked them to remove their log or change it to a note. They did not, so I deleted it. They understood after we emailed a couple times.

 

The second was a cache that I had on an island. The "finders" came right out and said they didn't have a way to get to the cache, but because they saw the island it was on, they were logging it was a find. And, if the owner wanted proof, they had a picture of the island. Ummmn, no. That one had to go.

 

So here's the thing. Over time you will likely start going to events and making friends with other cachers, most of whom (probably all) are honest and will do things right. Those who cheat and do things the way they want usually don't end up caching very long. They get bored and move on.

 

I'm certainly not condoning people cheating as in the examples above, but do you want to be seen as the person who's keeping a spreadsheet and monitoring every find that someone makes, or do you believe that people are generally good and take their word that they did the right thing?

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Wanted to add a a reason why someone might log out of order. I went to do a cache in a nearby state, and as I was reading the description, I was like, "I know I've done this cache. It totally sounds familiar."

 

Thankfully, I remembered doing it with friends and went back into old logs and saw my friends log from a year earlier where they mentioned that we were caching together that day. I logged my find using the date we all found it. If we hadn't gone together, I wouldn't have known what day I actually found it and would probably have logged it with the current date say that I had found it before but didn't remember the exact date.

 

Would I have used that cache for a challenge cache requiring specific dates? No, since I don't really know the true date I found it.

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Obviously, as a cache owner and a cache finder, we don't want people to cheat. It takes away from those who worked hard to do things right and find the cache as intended.

 

how so? How can the actions of other people affect your enjoyment of a cache?

 

For my 300th cache, I did a series in which you found 4 traditionals with each containing a clue to a final bonus cache. Spent half the day and walked 11 miles doing the series. I planned the finds so that #300 fell on the final cache. When I got home and logged the caches, I read through the previous logs to find out that one cacher didn't find the traditionals. Instead he used a little logic to figure out where the final should be. He even admitted as much on the log. Did that detract from my enjoyment at all? No it didn't. It is still one of my favorite caches. If that person had not skipped the other caches, or even not bother finding it at all, my day would've still gone exactly the same way. I would've had exactly the same experiences, and I would still have #300 at the final cache.

 

If you are the type that is bothered by the cheaters, then how do you feel about doing puzzles in magazines knowing that people look up the answers instead of trying to figure them out? How can you enjoy a good book knowing that some people will only read cliff notes or wait for the movie?

 

As was said before, in geocaching, those who cheat only cheat themselves.

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Don't worry about anything canalcacher (fellow Seattlelite)

 

When I first started caching I got uptight about everyone who didn't play by the rules too.

 

I think a lot of us go through that.

 

But then you start watching the forums for a while.

 

for a while they were jokingly setting different complaints for different days of the week, and sure enough, with almost timed regularity, people complain about people cheating in one way or another.

 

And almost with the same timed regularity, the whole mass of forum readers jump on the thread owner, because that's what these people do.

 

The fact is there are always going to be those who don't play fair. Most of the time, it really doesn't effect us.

 

But even if it does, we still have to ignore it.

 

enjoy the game. Don't worry about the way others play.

 

Heck, most people in Seattle don't worry much about anything, so join right in.

 

Happy caching.

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Don't worry about anything canalcacher (fellow Seattlelite)

 

When I first started caching I got uptight about everyone who didn't play by the rules too.

 

I think a lot of us go through that.

 

But then you start watching the forums for a while.

 

for a while they were jokingly setting different complaints for different days of the week, and sure enough, with almost timed regularity, people complain about people cheating in one way or another.

 

And almost with the same timed regularity, the whole mass of forum readers jump on the thread owner, because that's what these people do.

 

The fact is there are always going to be those who don't play fair. Most of the time, it really doesn't effect us.

 

But even if it does, we still have to ignore it.

 

enjoy the game. Don't worry about the way others play.

 

Heck, most people in Seattle don't worry much about anything, so join right in.

 

Happy caching.

There's a real Seattlite for you! :anibad: 2 Thumbs Up in the rain with no umbrella or hat on... too Sol Seaker! LOL B) Got To Love It Here!

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Obviously, as a cache owner and a cache finder, we don't want people to cheat. It takes away from those who worked hard to do things right and find the cache as intended.

 

how so? How can the actions of other people affect your enjoyment of a cache?

It may not take away from the fun that someone might have had finding it, but it can cheapen the value of the find for those who worked hard to find it.

 

Take the Fizzy Challenge. That's not an easy cache to qualify for. People have to work hard to do it, and other cachers often look up to and respect those who have done it. Because of its difficulty, it's a cache that a lot of cachers strive to do.

 

If people suddenly start logging it without meeting the requirements, the find count will go from 20 to 200, and the effort that those 20 put into it as intended is lost by all the false loggers. It makes it seem like the cache is nothing special because everyone is finding it.

Edited by Skippermark
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It may not take away from the fun that someone might have had finding it, but it can cheapen the value of the find for those who worked hard to find it.

Can I sell my legitimate qualification for a challenge on ebay (since it has some value)?

 

I alway wonder what this value of an accomplishment is that it is cheapened by a so-called cheater. In general, people will do a challenge for themselves. They know if they did it legitimately or not and therefore it has the value for them that is uneffected by what others have done. Only when they start comparing themselves to others do they need to worry about what logging practices someone else used.

 

You gave an example where someone might say "I did this challenge that only 20 other cachers have done", then someone finds a way to "cheat" and now there are 200 cachers who did this. You claim the experince of the 20 who didn't "cheat" is cheapened now because they can only say "I did this challenge that 200 other people have done". Or perhaps someone who hasn't done the challenge will say "That challenge is very hard - only 20 people have done it", then when the "cheating" starts they will say "That challenge is very easy since 200 people have done it". While I can't stop someone from assigning a value to a challenge this way, I don't have much sympathy for them. I think people should do achallenge because it will be fun or challenging for them and not because of how many people have claimed to have done it. Beside which, I believe that most people will be honest about whether they qualify for a challenge as there is not a great incentive to cheat. I just don't see a challenge with 20 honest finds and 180 cheaters (or even one with 20 honest finders and 10 cheaters).

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I've done challenges where the dates of my finds were integral, so I understand how "date cheating" could potentially be an issue. But let me see if I've got the logistics right....

 

Say I put no dates in any of the logbooks when I sign my name, but I do log my finds online (which necessarily assigns a date). Then someday in the future when a challenge cache gets published, and one of the requirements is that all my finds for the challenge be after the date of publication, I would then go back and edit online logs to put a new date in? So my old finds would qualify for the new challenge? But that leaves an "edit" thing on all the online logs that I did this on - which would be an easy way for the challenge CO to know that I've cheated (if every single one, or even most, of my claimed finds for this challenge had edited online logs).

 

Now if I never logged any of those finds online, then I could see this cheat method working (although some observant cachers might notice that I've claimed a really old find for this brand new challenge--and they might know for sure it's a really old find for me because they remember seeing my signature in the logbook way up there ahead of theirs), but if I'm the sort of person who would cheat on a challenge, then would I have the patience to save up a bunch of non-dated, non-logged-online finds that maybe one day I could pull out of my hat for future challenges? I doubt it.

 

In other words, it doesn't sound like a very effective way of cheating. I just don't see the above scenarios as being likely - I think it's more likely that people are leaving the date off for reasons other than potential future cheating.

 

 

good way of looking at it.. thanks for your reply!!!

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It may not take away from the fun that someone might have had finding it, but it can cheapen the value of the find for those who worked hard to find it.

Can I sell my legitimate qualification for a challenge on ebay (since it has some value)?

 

I alway wonder what this value of an accomplishment is that it is cheapened by a so-called cheater. In general, people will do a challenge for themselves. They know if they did it legitimately or not and therefore it has the value for them that is uneffected by what others have done. Only when they start comparing themselves to others do they need to worry about what logging practices someone else used.

 

You gave an example where someone might say "I did this challenge that only 20 other cachers have done", then someone finds a way to "cheat" and now there are 200 cachers who did this. You claim the experince of the 20 who didn't "cheat" is cheapened now because they can only say "I did this challenge that 200 other people have done". Or perhaps someone who hasn't done the challenge will say "That challenge is very hard - only 20 people have done it", then when the "cheating" starts they will say "That challenge is very easy since 200 people have done it". While I can't stop someone from assigning a value to a challenge this way, I don't have much sympathy for them. I think people should do achallenge because it will be fun or challenging for them and not because of how many people have claimed to have done it. Beside which, I believe that most people will be honest about whether they qualify for a challenge as there is not a great incentive to cheat. I just don't see a challenge with 20 honest finds and 180 cheaters (or even one with 20 honest finders and 10 cheaters).

 

The way I read Skippermark's post, he was using numbers like this to show an extreme case. I think the point is that an individual cheating has little impact on the overall game. When I look at any cache page (challenge or otherwise), I assume the finds are mainly legit. And the occasional cheat doesn't matter. If the game became overrun by cheating, such that the logs on a typical cache page (challenge or otherwise) were 90% of the logs, I think that would hurt the game.

 

Now I agree; I don't see this happening, so to me it's more a theoretical point. But the point is that if cheating becomes out of control, it can impact the enjoyment of others. I like reading other people's logs who found the same cache I did; I don't want to be reading bogus logs of those who didn't.

Edited by redsox_mark
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Can I sell my legitimate qualification for a challenge on ebay (since it has some value)?

Value is not always a number. It can also mean respect or to hold something in high regard. I was thinking of it in those terms, such as "I value their find since they were the only one who could do it."

 

I believe that most people will be honest about whether they qualify for a challenge as there is not a great incentive to cheat.

I too believe that most people are honest, but there are some who might cheat, perhaps to look better to friends or whatever.

 

The way I read Skippermark's post, he was using numbers like this to show an extreme case...If the game became overrun by cheating, such that the logs on a typical cache page (challenge or otherwise) were 90% of the logs, I think that would hurt the game.

Exactly. :laughing:

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It may not take away from the fun that someone might have had finding it, but it can cheapen the value of the find for those who worked hard to find it.

 

I alway wonder what this value of an accomplishment is that it is cheapened by a so-called cheater. In general, people will do a challenge for themselves. They know if they did it legitimately or not and therefore it has the value for them that is uneffected by what others have done. Only when they start comparing themselves to others do they need to worry about what logging practices someone else used.

 

I agree with you, but it appears to be something ingrained in human nature. In amateur radio, the old guys look down on the newbies because of a rule change -- the old guys all had to learn morse code to get a license, and they think somehow that all of these no-code newbies are ruining their hobby.

 

A guy named Galloway wrote a book for recreational runners who want to train for a marathon. The key to his method is -- gasp! -- walking! Instead of running at a steady pace for 26.2 miles, he suggests talking short walking breaks at various intervals. For some reason, this suggestion causes fits of apoplexy in the serious runners. Somehow, the idea that a fat old guy like me can finish the same marathon that they are running (albeit a couple of hours after they finished) seems to detract from their enjoyment of the race.

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It appears that my presence on the lived... I will walk away and take my enthusiasm and excitement and knowledge and keep it to myself and my closest caching buddies.

 

But before I go, I wanted to make everyone aware that you are taking your own credible caching name in your hands when asking questions about what peoples opinions are.

 

After I posted this and everyone went wild, a fellow seattle cacher decided to post this cache with ill intent

 

http://coord.info/GC2HBGX

 

and to my surprise.... the reviewer published it.......with full knowledge of the forum post we are currently on.

 

I have talked with Groundspeak HQ twice today, trying to make sense of the reason, I even asked to have the cache taken down...... and wondered why a DIRECT and UNDERHANDED cache with no good intentions besides making fun of me and my questions was being allowed to be published.

 

I think I handled this , all things considerably, very well... I have been forth right in my apologies and clarifications towards those who have taken it personally...

 

But to have someone with no guts to not post and use the forum here and DISCUSS my question and the technicality of said question, well... I have ZERO RESPECT for that person or anyone that thinks that cache is a good idea...and I have met a few of these people, big names in the local game... I just shake my head in disarray.. dont worry ... we WILL run into each other out there.....

 

So hey, if you get hounded on the forums.... berated, made fun of, or anything that degrades you as a person and geocacher

.......JUST GO HIDE A CACHE MAKING FUN OF THEM , STATING THE WRONG THINGS AND USE IT TO GET BACK AT THE FORUM POSTER...

 

Come cache in Seattle, where geocachers think they are god and NO ONE IS SAFE!!!!

 

Canalcache , 10-7, on the side , and definitely not out.. :laughing:

 

real men wear purple and gold ... GO HUSKIES!!!

Edited by canalcache
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