Accept Liability?

[nielt]

So I have an undeveloped park near my house, and I was thinking of hiding a geocache there. It is owned by the city. I sent the city an email asking to hide a cache there, and they said it was okay, as long as I accept liability. So I was thinking, I wonder if in the Terms to become a geocacher, you accept that you will cache at your own risk. If so, then could I accept liability, and not worry about someone suing me, because they accepted to cache at their own risk?

[+BlueDeuce]

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[+BlueDeuce]

That said, don't assume their disclaimer covers you.

 

Do you carry any insurance?

[AZcachemeister]

I don't think I have ever seen where a Geocacher has been sued for damages caused by a Geocache.

 

OTOH, who wants to be the first?

 

If you are fairly certain there should be no problems...go for it!

[+BlueDeuce]

My point is that geocaching is less of a liability than me playing Frisbee in a park and whacking someone's eyeball out of their head.

 

If I post online that I left my Frisbee in a park and someone goes to find it and whacks their own eyeball out of their head, did I need a Disclaimer?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

You need a lawyer for a definitive answer, but my guess is that if you make some sort of statement that you accept liability you could be putting yourself at risk.

[+Chokecherry]

Groundspeak already made a statement about their lack of liability.

 

The city apparently does not want to be held liable for any accidents on their property and would like you to personally take on the liability.

 

I wonder if you can actually take out liability insurance on a property you don't own.

[+dbrierley]

I'm not a lawyer, but liability is very complicated. I doubt the disclaimer in the Geocaching.com web site would offer any protection to a cache owner; the disclaimer is designed to attempt to limit Groundspeak's corporate liability. Furthermore, it would be moot if a non-geocacher (who hasn't agreed to the disclaimer) found the cache. Liability can include lots of things besides injury, such as reimbursement for the costs of responding to a bomb scare.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

You need a lawyer for a definitive answer, but my guess is that if you make some sort of statement that you accept liability you could be putting yourself at risk.

I'd buy that for a dollar. See how much your insurance agent would charge to insure you against damages arising form someone searching out your Geocache.

[knowschad]

What are they called... "recreational laws" or something like that...I tried to Google them, but didn't come up with anything useful. But it is something like that. They have been referenced here before... there are laws in most states that have been put in place for the sole purpose of protecting land owners from such lawsuits when they open their lands for recreational use. I'm very surprised that your city wasn't already aware of them. Can somebody provide some more details, please?

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

What are they called... "recreational laws" or something like that...I tried to Google them, but didn't come up with anything useful. But it is something like that. They have been referenced here before... there are laws in most states that have been put in place for the sole purpose of protecting land owners from such lawsuits when they open their lands for recreational use. I'm very surprised that your city wasn't already aware of them. Can somebody provide some more details, please?

I would guess that some ranchers and timber companies know a lot about those...

[+genegene]

I'm dealing with this issue out here in Western Mass.

 

In order to hold our event this year, 4th Annual WMG Picnic at Mohawk Trail State Forest we need to have $1,000,000... yup that's one million dollars in liability insurance and that's just the minimum.

 

Its going to cost us 200 bucks just to get it for the event (2 days) and the park is talking about us getting it on our caches as well. On top of that they might try and force us to use the pavilion and charge us for it.

 

Next year we are going to a private location so we don't have to deal with all this bull and we can just have a good time.

 

People are just scared now about doing anything or giving an OK for something that they might get sued for if some one gets hurt doing it.

[knowschad]

I'm dealing with this issue out here in Western Mass.

 

In order to hold our event this year, 4th Annual WMG Picnic at Mohawk Trail State Forest we need to have $1,000,000... yup that's one million dollars in liability insurance and that's just the minimum.

 

Its going to cost us 200 bucks just to get it for the event (2 days) and the park is talking about us getting it on our caches as well. On top of that they might try and force us to use the pavilion and charge us for it.

 

Next year we are going to a private location so we don't have to deal with all this bull and we can just have a good time.

 

People are just scared now about doing anything or giving an OK for something that they might get sued for if some one gets hurt doing it.

Actually, I have heard about liability insurance being required for events in public parks. I'm not sure why that might be different from hiding a cache in the same park, but I believe that it is different. How much does $1,000,000 of liability insurance for one day cost?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Not sure but I think the issue is pay to access. If you charge someone to come onto your land then you have liabilities that free-access doesn't have.

 

I think.

[+Jumpin' Jack Cache]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=recreational+use+liability+laws

[+popokiiti]

I would be tempted to put something like this: "The city assumes no liability for any injury, loss, sunburn, shock, dehydration, tripping over a blade of grass, twig, branch, root, rock, or stone, slipping in doggy do-do or mud, being chased by dogs or old ladies, getting dirty, or any accident however caused, and neither do I." Throw in a bit about "not limited to these examples."

We have become such a litigious society, suing for the least little thing that could have been prevented by ourselves being more careful/observant. It is a shame.

If you have a friend who is in law - maybe ask them? Some lawyers do not charge for the first visit - but if that visit is only 10 mins...have all your questions ready!

Good luck, and I hope you can place that cache.

[+genegene]

Actually, I have heard about liability insurance being required for events in public parks. I'm not sure why that might be different from hiding a cache in the same park, but I believe that it is different. How much does $1,000,000 of liability insurance for one day cost?

 

$200.00 for a day or weekend. It doesn't matter. I just happen to be contacted by someone that knows of a program that will help us out for the weekend. If you go to your local insurance company you are looking at between 3-500 depending on the event.

[sabrefan7]

I wonder if in the Terms to become a geocacher, you accept that you will cache at your own risk. If so, then could I accept liability, and not worry about someone suing me, because they accepted to cache at their own risk?

 

This disclaimer has been around since 2000. Put it on the cache page if you think it would help.

 

Disclaimer: You are under no obligation to hunt my cache. You do so at your own risk. Like any outdoor sport, it carries the risk of unforeseen hazards. Use your best judgment with the environment and conditions. As conditions and cache locations may vary, it is the responsibility of the searcher to be familiar with the conditions in the area to be searched, to adequately prepare for those conditions, and to conduct oneself safely and responsibly and remain within his or her personal abilities and limitations. Children should be well supervised. When and if you find a cache, you are under no obligation to touch it, reach it, climb to it, dig for it, pick it up, or even open it. Open it at your own risk. If food or drink is present, do not consume it, throw it out. Individual Geostash and GPS cache sponsors assume no liability for events, which may occur, related directly or indirectly to your searching for a stash.

[+Chokecherry]

The disclaimer still does not absolve the city of any liability. If the city is the property owner they could in turn be sued if someone gets injured regardless of the activity they are partaking in. I think the issue in this case is the city does not want to encourage people to be going there which would increase their risk so they want someone else to assume the risk and liability for this.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

This isn't a direct match but could be informative...

 

The California Supreme Court recently held that waivers signed by participants in sports or recreational programs limiting liability for future gross negligence are void as a matter of public policy. The court reasoned that public policy bars enforcement of an agreement that would effectively remove any obligation to adhere to a minimum standard of care."

 

http://nsglc.olemiss.edu/SandBar/SandBar6/6.3waiver.htm

Edited August 1, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

[sabrefan7]

The disclaimer still does not absolve the city of any liability. If the city is the property owner they could in turn be sued if someone gets injured regardless of the activity they are partaking in. I think the issue in this case is the city does not want to encourage people to be going there which would increase their risk so they want someone else to assume the risk and liability for this.

The best thing to do then is ,,,,,,,,,,, nothing

[+Chokecherry]

I would probably go back to the city and explain that there's no corporate entity to take on liability and it's not an organized event that you can insure. Then give examples of near by geocaches on public property etc.

[+Team Cotati]

So I have an undeveloped park near my house, and I was thinking of hiding a geocache there. It is owned by the city. I sent the city an email asking to hide a cache there, and they said it was okay, as long as I accept liability. So I was thinking, I wonder if in the Terms to become a geocacher, you accept that you will cache at your own risk. If so, then could I accept liability, and not worry about someone suing me, because they accepted to cache at their own risk?

 

You can of course do as you choose.

 

Something happens to someone while searching for a geocache that you place in that undeveloped park and they decide for whatever reasons to sue the city, you are going to be in deep yogurt.

[nielt]

I hid the cache, and here's the disclaimer on the page

 

By hunting for this cache you assume all risks and hazards incidental to the conduct of the activity.

 

By hunting for this cache, you release, absolve, and waive any right to bring a claim, action, suit, or other proceeding against the City of BlaBla, and I (BLABLA) for damages due to any injuries suffered as a result of participation in the program, GEOCACHING.

 

You are under no obligation to hunt my cache. You do so at your own risk. Like any outdoor sport, it carries the risk of unforeseen hazards. Use your best judgment with the environment and conditions. As conditions and cache locations may vary, it is the responsibility of the searcher to be familiar with the conditions in the area to be searched, to adequately prepare for those conditions, and to conduct oneself safely and responsibly and remain within his or her personal abilities and limitations. Children should be well supervised. When and if you find a cache, you are under no obligation to touch it, reach it, climb to it, dig for it, pick it up, or even open it. Open it at your own risk. If food or drink is present, do not consume it, throw it out. Individual Geostash and GPS cache sponsors assume no liability for events, which may occur, related directly or indirectly to your searching for a stash.

 

The city of Bla and I assumes no liability for any, but not limited to, injury, loss, sunburn, shock, dehydration, tripping over a blade of grass, twig, branch, root, rock, or stone, slipping in doggy do-do or mud, being chased by dogs or old ladies, getting dirty, or any accident however caused.

[GOF and Bacall]

I was letting this churn in the back of my mind and have a question. Did you happen to ask just what liability they wanted you to assume? Because if they were looking for you to assume liability for the security of your cache that's easy. We are used to things happening to those. If they want you to assume responsibility for anything that happens to anyone in the area of your cache that is a whole different ball game.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I hid the cache, and here's the disclaimer on the page

 

By hunting for this cache you assume all risks and hazards incidental to the conduct of the activity.

 

By hunting for this cache, you release, absolve, and waive any right to bring a claim, action, suit, or other proceeding against the City of BlaBla, and I (BLABLA) for damages due to any injuries suffered as a result of participation in the program, GEOCACHING.

 

You are under no obligation to hunt my cache. You do so at your own risk. Like any outdoor sport, it carries the risk of unforeseen hazards. Use your best judgment with the environment and conditions. As conditions and cache locations may vary, it is the responsibility of the searcher to be familiar with the conditions in the area to be searched, to adequately prepare for those conditions, and to conduct oneself safely and responsibly and remain within his or her personal abilities and limitations. Children should be well supervised. When and if you find a cache, you are under no obligation to touch it, reach it, climb to it, dig for it, pick it up, or even open it. Open it at your own risk. If food or drink is present, do not consume it, throw it out. Individual Geostash and GPS cache sponsors assume no liability for events, which may occur, related directly or indirectly to your searching for a stash.

 

The city of Bla and I assumes no liability for any, but not limited to, injury, loss, sunburn, shock, dehydration, tripping over a blade of grass, twig, branch, root, rock, or stone, slipping in doggy do-do or mud, being chased by dogs or old ladies, getting dirty, or any accident however caused.

The only thing worse than thinking that you know the law is finding out that you don't.

 

If this 'disclaimer' makes you happy that's cool, but until it is blessed by an attorney who does know the law it may give you a false sense of security and may even hurt you.

 

It's sorta like buying insurance without closely reading the policy - you don't know what is covered and what is not! Claims often lead to nasty surprises.

Edited August 2, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

[BCProspectors]

This disclaimer has been around since 2000. Put it on the cache page if you think it would help.

 

Disclaimer: You are under no obligation to hunt my cache. You do so at your own risk. Like any outdoor sport, it carries the risk of unforeseen hazards. Use your best judgment with the environment and conditions. As conditions and cache locations may vary, it is the responsibility of the searcher to be familiar with the conditions in the area to be searched, to adequately prepare for those conditions, and to conduct oneself safely and responsibly and remain within his or her personal abilities and limitations. Children should be well supervised. When and if you find a cache, you are under no obligation to touch it, reach it, climb to it, dig for it, pick it up, or even open it. Open it at your own risk. If food or drink is present, do not consume it, throw it out. Individual Geostash and GPS cache sponsors assume no liability for events, which may occur, related directly or indirectly to your searching for a stash.

Omit the last three sentences and that would actually be a very good disclaimer for the OP.

[+MR57]

I don't think I have ever seen where a Geocacher has been sued for damages caused by a Geocache.

 

OTOH, who wants to be the first?

 

If you are fairly certain there should be no problems...go for it!

 

I'm not a lawyer but we all know you can be sued anytime for anything. I have wondered about it myself.

[+MR57]

Groundspeak already made a statement about their lack of liability.

 

The city apparently does not want to be held liable for any accidents on their property and would like you to personally take on the liability.

 

I wonder if you can actually take out liability insurance on a property you don't own.

 

I would say find a different location. Why take on a headache. It's a game remember.

[+MR57]

I would probably go back to the city and explain that there's no corporate entity to take on liability and it's not an organized event that you can insure. Then give examples of near by geocaches on public property etc.

 

I have wondered. You hide a cache up in steep mountains in a precarious spot. I have found some like this. So a geocacher goes up there and falls to there death. I would say 100% there family is going to sue you for gross negligence. And some of the places I've found them in I think a jury of muggles would agree it wasn't safe.

[+MR57]

I hid the cache, and here's the disclaimer on the page

 

By hunting for this cache you assume all risks and hazards incidental to the conduct of the activity.

 

By hunting for this cache, you release, absolve, and waive any right to bring a claim, action, suit, or other proceeding against the City of BlaBla, and I (BLABLA) for damages due to any injuries suffered as a result of participation in the program, GEOCACHING.

 

You are under no obligation to hunt my cache. You do so at your own risk. Like any outdoor sport, it carries the risk of unforeseen hazards. Use your best judgment with the environment and conditions. As conditions and cache locations may vary, it is the responsibility of the searcher to be familiar with the conditions in the area to be searched, to adequately prepare for those conditions, and to conduct oneself safely and responsibly and remain within his or her personal abilities and limitations. Children should be well supervised. When and if you find a cache, you are under no obligation to touch it, reach it, climb to it, dig for it, pick it up, or even open it. Open it at your own risk. If food or drink is present, do not consume it, throw it out. Individual Geostash and GPS cache sponsors assume no liability for events, which may occur, related directly or indirectly to your searching for a stash.

 

The city of Bla and I assumes no liability for any, but not limited to, injury, loss, sunburn, shock, dehydration, tripping over a blade of grass, twig, branch, root, rock, or stone, slipping in doggy do-do or mud, being chased by dogs or old ladies, getting dirty, or any accident however caused.

 

I don't think it works. Unless you have them sign and notorize this statement they can always say there never read it or understood anything.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I have wondered. You hide a cache up in steep mountains in a precarious spot. I have found some like this. So a geocacher goes up there and falls to there death. I would say 100% there family is going to sue you for gross negligence. And some of the places I've found them in I think a jury of muggles would agree it wasn't safe.

It has happened. A cacher fell to his death not many months ago. As far as I know no lawsuit was filed. I don't know if one wasn't brought because there was no basis for one or the family just chose not to pursue it. I suspect the former.

 

It's like going to a baseball game and getting hit by a foul ball - you can't sue because you know going in that there is inherent risk.

Edited August 3, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

[Andronicus]

I would probably go back to the city and explain that there's no corporate entity to take on liability and it's not an organized event that you can insure. Then give examples of near by geocaches on public property etc.

 

I have wondered. You hide a cache up in steep mountains in a precarious spot. I have found some like this. So a geocacher goes up there and falls to there death. I would say 100% there family is going to sue you for gross negligence. And some of the places I've found them in I think a jury of muggles would agree it wasn't safe.

On a similar note, can you sue God because you fell trying to reach the top of a mountain. Let's face it, it was not safe, and he put it there for you to climb.

 

This is just a silly way to point out the error in that thinking. Would a jury of muggles aggree..., don't know...

[Andronicus]

I would probably go back to the city and explain that there's no corporate entity to take on liability and it's not an organized event that you can insure. Then give examples of near by geocaches on public property etc.

 

I have wondered. You hide a cache up in steep mountains in a precarious spot. I have found some like this. So a geocacher goes up there and falls to there death. I would say 100% there family is going to sue you for gross negligence. And some of the places I've found them in I think a jury of muggles would agree it wasn't safe.

On a similar note, can you sue God because you fell trying to reach the top of a mountain. Let's face it, it was not safe, and he put it there for you to climb.

 

This is just a silly way to point out the error in that thinking. Would a jury of muggles aggree..., don't know...

I think you would be liable if you set some traps (Indiana Jones style) to try to make a cache more difficult.

[+Snoogans]

I'm dealing with this issue out here in Western Mass.

 

In order to hold our event this year, 4th Annual WMG Picnic at Mohawk Trail State Forest we need to have $1,000,000... yup that's one million dollars in liability insurance and that's just the minimum.

 

Its going to cost us 200 bucks just to get it for the event (2 days) and the park is talking about us getting it on our caches as well. On top of that they might try and force us to use the pavilion and charge us for it.

 

Next year we are going to a private location so we don't have to deal with all this bull and we can just have a good time.

 

People are just scared now about doing anything or giving an OK for something that they might get sued for if some one gets hurt doing it.

 

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague and curiosity just killed me. This is as far as I got.... Tha absurdity of it all....

 

I go to training, infrequently, in Springfield, Mass. and NONE of the instructors or staff I talked to actually live in Mass. They all commute from Hartford because they can't abide what's going on there.

 

I'm surprised

 

I'm going away now.... shaking my head.

[+DragonsWest]

Do we get to discuss DNF insurance, again?

[+JoesBar]

You can be sued for anything. And you can be sued for nothing.

 

Go back to the person at city hall and ask for clairification. "Accept liablilty for what?"

If they only give you a verbal answer, you should reply, "sure."

Then go hide the cache.

 

If they hand you a paper to sign, DON"T. Have a lawyer read it first! Based on what's printed on that page, you can decide if you accept their terms or not.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

More I think about it the more I think they don't want the cache placed but don't want to say no either, so they say yes if you assume the responsibility knowing that very few people will go ahead with it after that, and if you do they'll hold you to it.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Do we get to discuss DNF insurance, again?

You bet! For the low low one time offer monthly fee of only $2.00 I will personally insure you against any and all DNF experiences, subject to the conditions set forth herein.

 

This offer is good for five minutes after it is posted online. All claims must be accompanied by a video showing you and your GPS performing a thorough search at Ground Zero. All searches must be made in the company of eight or more experienced cachers who are identified by certified statement of a notary public. Verified claims will be paid by mailed check. Each properly verified DNF claim shall be paid in full by a $6.00 payment, upon claimants receipt of same by certified mail TheAlabamaRambler is released of any and all future claims regarding DNFs by the insured cacher at this particular cache site. All DNF claims are subject to a $10.00 per claim deductible.

[+sbell111]

You can be sued for anything. And you can be sued for nothing.

 

Go back to the person at city hall and ask for clairification. "Accept liablilty for what?"

If they only give you a verbal answer, you should reply, "sure."

Then go hide the cache.

 

If they hand you a paper to sign, DON"T. Have a lawyer read it first! Based on what's printed on that page, you can decide if you accept their terms or not.

I think that nielt handled it appropriately. They asked to be released from liability and he made all reasonable effort to do so. Perhaps his notification on the cache page included a tiny bit too much sarcasm, but so be it.

 

Will this notice completely release him and the city from any and all liability, of course not. It will, however, protect them from most any action that could be taken, and that's good enough.

[+Team Dromomania]

... Liability can include lots of things besides injury, such as reimbursement for the costs of responding to a bomb scare.

 

I can think of two cases in my local area of road crews thinking a cache container was a bomb and the CO was sent a LARGE bill for the reimbursement of the bomb squad responding. One got out of paying but I think the other is still pending. I don't like large bills so I pulled most of my roadside hides after the second bomb scare (A pill bottle hidden in the bore hold of a road sign).