# Saturation

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We have a place in mind that would be really great for a cache. The problem is that there are two other caches in the same vicinity. We have taken our GPS and walked, via normal routes, from the proposed spot, to the other two spots. In both cases they were just over .1 mile, but, again, this was the distance by normal traveling either on foot, or in a car. However, if one was to look at the distance between the caches "as the crow flies" they would be slightly less that .1 of a mile apart.

Does the saturation rule go by "as the crow flies" or by the distance to actually reach a cache without walking through buildings?! I don't know if it makes any difference, but the one we would like to place is a Puzzle cache, and the other two are traditional caches. I saw that there was some kind of exception for this, but didn't really understand the rule. Thanks!

It is 528 feet, as the crow flies.

If you're doing a puzzle cache, you need to measure the coordinates of your physical final container, against all other physical containers (Mystery/Puzzle, Multis, Traditionals) nearby.

Edited by Ambrosia

Does the saturation rule go by "as the crow flies" or by the distance to actually reach a cache without walking through buildings?

Per the Guidelines:

Cache containers and physical stages should generally be separated by a minimum of 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m).

Since there is no mention of obstacles or "walking" route, I would assume that it's "as the crow flies".

I don't know if it makes any difference, but the one we would like to place is a Puzzle cache, and the other two are traditional caches. I saw that there was some kind of exception for this, but didn't really understand the rule.

Again per the Guidelines:

A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container.

No mention of cache types, so I would interpret that section literally, and assume that any physical object your place, regardless of the cache type, would be subject to the Saturation portion of the Guidelines.

Good luck!

Another problem is how to really accurately measure the distance "as the crow flies," if that is, indeed the criteria. I am a pilot, and I can certainly calculate distances between two points! But when you are looking at the map with the caches on it, there is the question of where exactly is the other cache located (when going just by an icon, and when every foot counts, how do you determine the starting point?) Then, the second problem becomes the fact that without having the cache published, it is pretty difficult to look at a map and find the precise location of where the new cache point would be unless it is right on top of an obvious landmark, such as a street intersection.

On this particular one, it would be very difficult to locate the second point. There are two roads nearby, and I suppose one could try to triangulate the location from those two points by stepping off the distances. A measuring tape would be out of the question. It's just too far from both intersections.

I would let this go except Mr. DT really has his heart set on this spot, and I agree it is a really great, (and fun) place. Perhaps we should write to our local publisher? Or is there a moderator on here who would like to add his/her two cents? Or someone who has actually been in this situation before and could share the outcome of their experience with getting it published?

Then, the second problem becomes the fact that without having the cache published, it is pretty difficult to look at a map and find the precise location of where the new cache point would be unless it is right on top of an obvious landmark, such as a street intersection.

Perhaps you're overthinking the problem a bit.

If you have a set of coordinates of where you'd like to place your cache, my suggestion would be to write up a submission using the online form, including the the Additional Waypoint for the Final Cache Location (I believe you stated this would be a Puzzle Cache earlier) and leave it Disabled. Send an email off to your Local Reviewer along with a link to the Disabled Listing and ask for a coordinate check.

The "precise" location is kind of a relative term in Geocaching, and is only as good as what the Cache Owners put in the little coordinate boxes. The only thing that the Reviewers have to go by is the numbers that you and I see on the Listing pages, and/or the Hidden Additional Waypoints.

I believe that most of the Reviewers are pretty reasonable, and understand the limitations of the technology that we depend on to make this game work. I would be astonished if they came back and said, "you're 527 feet from the nearby cache...you'll need to move it 1 foot"

To calculate the distance all you need to do is stand where you want to place your cache and then select to go to the other cache on your GPS. It should tell you how many feet away you are.

If you are too close to another cache, your best option is to contact the owner of the other cache and ask them if they would be willing to move, or archive, their cache so you can place yours.

If you ask a reviewer to bend the guidelines a little, the chances are the reviewer will decline.

Yeah, I have been accused of over thinking things before! We considered just submitting it and see what happens. I kinda agree that our chances of getting an exception are rather slim. We did stand in the location of our new place and used the GPS to check distance to other two, but we were soooo close to being okay, but just far enough away to make it questionable. In one case it was 502 feet away, but then there are buildings and trees, etc. between the two points... and as I said, this is "as the crow flies." To actually get to the other two it was easily outside of 528 feet.

I suppose it couldn't hurt to try and maybe we'll get lucky! An argument could be made for the unique setting, and why it would be a really nice place for a cache!

To quote another moderator, 528 should be an absolute minimum, not a goal.

... In one case it was 502 feet away, but then there are buildings and trees, etc. between the two points... and as I said, this is "as the crow flies." To actually get to the other two it was easily outside of 528 feet.

...

Building and trees between the two points are not taken into consideration. (A mountain might be. )

The distance "to actually get to the other two" is not taken into consideration.

To quote another moderator, 528 should be an absolute minimum, not a goal.

I hear you. But, honestly, we didn't set out to find a place just because it was handy to other caches. We found the place first because it is a historic landmark in our state, it is incredibly fun, quaint, charming, interesting, etc., etc. Then we looked up the location and saw the other two caches in the area. But they aren't in this "place" (they are down the road) which is rather tucked away (we have lived here all of our lives and driven by here countless times, and never seen it before!)

To us, that should be, if it isn't already, a goal of placing caches. To bring people to see places they may not have ever seen if not for caching!

To quote another moderator, 528 should be an absolute minimum, not a goal.

I hear you. But, honestly, we didn't set out to find a place just because it was handy to other caches. We found the place first because it is a historic landmark in our state, it is incredibly fun, quaint, charming, interesting, etc., etc. Then we looked up the location and saw the other two caches in the area. But they aren't in this "place" (they are down the road) which is rather tucked away (we have lived here all of our lives and driven by here countless times, and never seen it before!)

To us, that should be, if it isn't already, a goal of placing caches. To bring people to see places they may not have ever seen if not for caching!

With all due respect, you are bringing an emotionl argument to a logical guideline.

Your argument will likely not work.

I still suggest you contact the other cache owner(s).

Give your Reviewer a 60CSx as an 'appreciation gift' but turn on 'route by interstate' mapping first.

When he tells you that you are too close to another cache invite him to come hunt yours with his new GPS.

I could be 300 feet from a cache and set a goto, it would route me to the nearest interstate, up to the next exit and back to the cache.

I often had it tell me that it was 12 miles to a cache that I could see from where I stood!

I cache with a Blackberry now.

To quote another moderator, 528 should be an absolute minimum, not a goal.

I hear you. But, honestly, we didn't set out to find a place just because it was handy to other caches. We found the place first because it is a historic landmark in our state, it is incredibly fun, quaint, charming, interesting, etc., etc. Then we looked up the location and saw the other two caches in the area. But they aren't in this "place" (they are down the road) which is rather tucked away (we have lived here all of our lives and driven by here countless times, and never seen it before!)

To us, that should be, if it isn't already, a goal of placing caches. To bring people to see places they may not have ever seen if not for caching!

With all due respect, you are bringing an emotionl argument to a logical guideline.

Your argument will likely not work.

I still suggest you contact the other cache owner(s).

Well, we wouldn't feel right asking other COs to move their caches; after all, they were there first! I guess from reading all of the experienced feedback on here we are just going to have to find another place. Bummer. But thanks for all the helpful input. Likely saved us a lot of wasted time!

Another problem is how to really accurately measure the distance "as the crow flies," if that is, indeed the criteria. I am a pilot, and I can certainly calculate distances between two points! ...

Remember what they taught you in flight school - Trust your instruments!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler

To quote another moderator, 528 should be an absolute minimum, not a goal.

I hear you. But, honestly, we didn't set out to find a place just because it was handy to other caches. We found the place first because it is a historic landmark in our state, it is incredibly fun, quaint, charming, interesting, etc., etc. Then we looked up the location and saw the other two caches in the area. But they aren't in this "place" (they are down the road) which is rather tucked away (we have lived here all of our lives and driven by here countless times, and never seen it before!)

To us, that should be, if it isn't already, a goal of placing caches. To bring people to see places they may not have ever seen if not for caching!

I feel your pain on this issue. You might contact the owner(s) of the adjacent caches to see if they might consider altering their placements to give you some wiggle room. Phatdawg and I met at a historic airport recently and he accommodated me. Ask nice and offer Girl Scout Thin Mint Cookies.

Edited by humboldt flier

If you have a set of coordinates of where you'd like to place your cache, my suggestion would be to write up a submission using the online form, including the the Additional Waypoint for the Final Cache Location (I believe you stated this would be a Puzzle Cache earlier) and leave it Disabled. Send an email off to your Local Reviewer along with a link to the Disabled Listing and ask for a coordinate check.

Ya know.... it sure would be nice if GS put this paragraph, or words to the same effect, in the instructions for submitting a cache. It sure would make things a lot easier.

Here's a link to the Knowledge Books article on Checking for Cache Saturation

I feel your pain on this issue. You might contact the owner(s) of the adjacent caches to see if they might consider altering their placements to give you some wiggle room. Phatdawg and I met at a historic airport recently and he accommodated me. Ask nice and offer Girl Scout Thin Mint Cookies.

Oh Great!! Please don't tell me that it is Thunderbird Airfield??!!! I have been dying to go out there and look around and put something there!! Are all the great places taken??

I have a question regarding saturation that someone may be able to clear up for me.

I placed a multi cache the other day but it appears that the final two locations are too close to another cache.

The problem is that the cache that is located near mine is part of another multi cache and the start location is around 2.5 miles from any of mine.

Does this mean that to place a cache you must complete all others in that area as they may be close to yours?

Trojan

Problem solved for now. We found a "compromise" spot that puts the other two caches at exactly .10 mile from the proposed new cache! How's that for pushing the envelope?! But I think this was a good thing to really understand better, as so many caches can be a short distance from each other geographically, but not close at all in terms of access to them. Thanks to everyone for your input!

I have a question regarding saturation that someone may be able to clear up for me.

I placed a multi cache the other day but it appears that the final two locations are too close to another cache.

The problem is that the cache that is located near mine is part of another multi cache and the start location is around 2.5 miles from any of mine.

Does this mean that to place a cache you must complete all others in that area as they may be close to yours?

Trojan

Or at the very least, look at nearby multi/puzzle cache pages and work out whether they'll end up near yours or not.

I have a question regarding saturation that someone may be able to clear up for me.

I placed a multi cache the other day but it appears that the final two locations are too close to another cache.

The problem is that the cache that is located near mine is part of another multi cache and the start location is around 2.5 miles from any of mine.

Does this mean that to place a cache you must complete all others in that area as they may be close to yours?

Trojan

Or at the very least, look at nearby multi/puzzle cache pages and work out whether they'll end up near yours or not.

That is really hard to do if you don't have the information where the stages are on the cache page. Some you need to find a waypoint to get the co-ordinates for the next waypoint. Those are the ones that cause grief.

I feel your pain on this issue. You might contact the owner(s) of the adjacent caches to see if they might consider altering their placements to give you some wiggle room. Phatdawg and I met at a historic airport recently and he accommodated me. Ask nice and offer Girl Scout Thin Mint Cookies.

Oh Great!! Please don't tell me that it is Thunderbird Airfield??!!! I have been dying to go out there and look around and put something there!! Are all the great places taken??

Fear not Jedi ... not at Thunderbird Airfield. cache on and hide well

I am surprised nobody recommended using GSAK and the KMLCircles macro to get a good idea of the saturation zones or if you already have your proposed coords use FizzyCalc to find the distances to the nearby caches.

how to really accurately measure the distance "as the crow flies,"

I use this website distance calculator

just put in the co-ordinate of the nearest cache and your proposed co-ordinate and there you go !!

thanks - looks like i have some puzzles to solve

thanks - looks like i have some puzzles to solve

Your reviewer may be able to help you out on this. Ask him/her for a hint on where you could put the final 2 wp. He/She may very well say "just move it 100feet SW." or something like that.

Does the saturation rule go by "as the crow flies" or by the distance to actually reach a cache without walking through buildings?!

I know you already have your answer, but since this sort of question seems to pop up a lot, I thought this might be helpful. Consider the reason for the saturation guidelines. It's not just to keep the map from getting cluttered!

The basic idea is that the GPS system has a certain amount of error built in. And some users add error of their own So if two caches are very close together, it increases the chance of someone looking for cache A, but finding cache B and not realizing it. So he logs a find on the wrong cache!

Even with the current guidelines, I've seen this happen. There's a park near my office that has two caches, 532 feet apart (according to FizzyCalc). One of them is stuffed full of pens. I found them both one day, and when I was logging the other cache (not the one full of pens) I noticed that the log before mine said "Wow, look at all those pens!"

Since that's the reason for the saturation guideline, it only makes sense that it would be "as the crow flies." That kind of error is independent of the route of a footpath, or the existence of a building.

What on earth would we do if crows didn't fly? Thank your local crows today for flying straight and flying true.

I feel your pain on this issue. You might contact the owner(s) of the adjacent caches to see if they might consider altering their placements to give you some wiggle room. Phatdawg and I met at a historic airport recently and he accommodated me. Ask nice and offer Girl Scout Thin Mint Cookies.

Oh Great!! Please don't tell me that it is Thunderbird Airfield??!!! I have been dying to go out there and look around and put something there!! Are all the great places taken??

Fear not Jedi ... not at Thunderbird Airfield. cache on and hide well

***Big Sigh of relief***

how to really accurately measure the distance "as the crow flies,"

I use this website distance calculator

just put in the co-ordinate of the nearest cache and your proposed co-ordinate and there you go !!

So much to learn, and so little time... Thanks... I've bookmarked that page.

As for the crows flying straight, has anyone determined if crows calculate course corrections required due to winds aloft?

Edited by Desert_Trailblazers

As for the crows flying straight, has anyone determined if crows calculate course corrections required due to winds aloft?

Not that I know of, but I have observed them to apply course corrections due to food sightings.

Are we discussing African or European crows, and are they laden with coconuts during these measurements?

Well, we wouldn't feel right asking other COs to move their caches; after all, they were there first! I guess from reading all of the experienced feedback on here we are just going to have to find another place. Bummer. But thanks for all the helpful input. Likely saved us a lot of wasted time!

There's no reason to feel that you are imposing on someone. If you let them know what your ideas are, you may find that they love your idea and would be happy to help you accomplish your hiding goal. The response will have a lot to do with how you approach them. The starting step is to creat your listing page, but make sure that the "Cache is active" box is not checked. This will get the spot reserved for your hide in the event that the other does get archived.

By reading about the other Caches, you might be able to make a judgement on whether they are inportant to the owners or not, and help you decide on whether to approach them with your ideas.

On the other hand, there are some players that feel that any crappy Ccahe they throw down is more important than any other Cache or players, and will bite your head off for even thinking that you have anyt ideas worth listening.

how to really accurately measure the distance "as the crow flies,"

I use this website distance calculator

just put in the co-ordinate of the nearest cache and your proposed co-ordinate and there you go !!

So much to learn, and so little time... Thanks... I've bookmarked that page.

As for the crows flying straight, has anyone determined if crows calculate course corrections required due to winds aloft?

Perhaps if the crow had been partaking of some berries in which the sugars had fermented, said crow's path might be longer than the usual "as the crow flies" distance.

Well, we wouldn't feel right asking other COs to move their caches; after all, they were there first! I guess from reading all of the experienced feedback on here we are just going to have to find another place. Bummer. But thanks for all the helpful input. Likely saved us a lot of wasted time!

I just encountered this problem; a perfect spot, but it is 42 feet short of the minimum distance "as the crow flies." The other cache is across a wetland and it is quite a bit further to actually get to the cache unless you really walk across the swamp. The problem I have with the other cache is it is placed by someone else who has saturated several miles with over 300 caches. I sent an email asking if he could move by 42 feet, no response.

Well, we wouldn't feel right asking other COs to move their caches; after all, they were there first! I guess from reading all of the experienced feedback on here we are just going to have to find another place. Bummer. But thanks for all the helpful input. Likely saved us a lot of wasted time!

I just encountered this problem; a perfect spot, but it is 42 feet short of the minimum distance "as the crow flies." The other cache is across a wetland and it is quite a bit further to actually get to the cache unless you really walk across the swamp. The problem I have with the other cache is it is placed by someone else who has saturated several miles with over 300 caches. I sent an email asking if he could move by 42 feet, no response.

Well, with over 300 caches, you can't be sure if he even read your e-mail!

And I think the African crow's flight path could well be altered by said fermented berries, but then there is the Australian crow, which seems to have made it's way to cross with the American crow, so and I would bet that they would be particularly unreliable give their probable propensity for shrimp and beer.

I think a lady in a lake needs to throw a sword or two

I think a lady in a lake needs to throw a sword or two

Okay, I'll bite... Huh??

I recently had a placement turned down due to being too close to another cache that I was unaware of and this is what the reviewer said

"Please note that exceptions to the proximity guideline can be made if the nature of terrain between the two caches makes their close proximity reasonable (for example, a river between the two caches)"

I think a lady in a lake needs to throw a sword or two

Okay, I'll bite... Huh??

Relates to post #33 and as the crow flies and coconuts. In Monty Python And The Holy Grail,the birds were swallows and coconuts were involved. >>> the lady in the lake and swords is an oblique reference to Sir Lancelot etc. etc.

I am not a devotee of the Holy Grail, however, I am studying the movie gathering clues for a puzzle cache in Santa Cruz, Calif. Called, you guessed it, Monty Python And The Holy Grail.

Aren't you sorry you bit? I am sorry I opened that particular cache page and now the sucker is poking me real hard. LOL, LOL.

Even with the current guidelines, I've seen this happen. There's a park near my office that has two caches, 532 feet apart (according to FizzyCalc). One of them is stuffed full of pens. I found them both one day, and when I was logging the other cache (not the one full of pens) I noticed that the log before mine said "Wow, look at all those pens!"

Now that's dedication. When I get really lazy I can barely work up the effort to search a ten foot radius, much less hunt a cache 500 feet away from ground zero.

I wonder if the finders mixed up the two caches while logging and thought the wrong one was the pen cache. I've done that sort of thing many times - confusing two nearby caches (especially when they have similar names), logging the wrong cache in the same park, dropping the TB in the wrong cache, etc., etc.

I'm surprised no one has brought this up - set up an offset multi-cache with a virtual first stage at your historical landmark. If there is no container at the posted coordinates the saturation guideline does not apply.

Not sure what an offset is? From the guidelines:

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

I think a lady in a lake needs to throw a sword or two

Okay, I'll bite... Huh??

Relates to post #33 and as the crow flies and coconuts. In Monty Python And The Holy Grail,the birds were swallows and coconuts were involved. >>> the lady in the lake and swords is an oblique reference to Sir Lancelot etc. etc.

I am not a devotee of the Holy Grail, however, I am studying the movie gathering clues for a puzzle cache in Santa Cruz, Calif. Called, you guessed it, Monty Python And The Holy Grail.

Aren't you sorry you bit? I am sorry I opened that particular cache page and now the sucker is poking me real hard. LOL, LOL.

Naw! My mother always agonized over the horrible things I must have been "learning" hanging around a bunch of crusty old pilots in an airplane hangar all the time, at the tender age of 15! Of course, she was right, and I got the reference that could involve a lady, sword, etc. but the lake threw me! Okay, now I think this thread is beginning to really deteriorate (or would degenerate be more appropo? ) Are we allowed to have fun on these threads, or are we supposed to keep it all business? Just in case, I will mention that you gave a great idea for a puzzle cache with the whole movie theme as the foundation! (Uh, oh... now I'm off-topic.) I better shut up before I get myself into more trouble.

I recently had a placement turned down due to being too close to another cache that I was unaware of and this is what the reviewer said

"Please note that exceptions to the proximity guideline can be made if the nature of terrain between the two caches makes their close proximity reasonable (for example, a river between the two caches)"

Now see? That makes sense!! I knew there had to be some sort of concession for something like that! Now all I need is to go get myself a river to put between these two caches!!

Naw! My mother always agonized over the horrible things I must have been "learning" hanging around a bunch of crusty old pilots in an airplane hangar all the time, at the tender age of 15!

I don't recognize that one-Airplane?

And please don't call me Shirley.

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Never seen this appear in an actual post before. Just the white screen of annoyance.

Naw! My mother always agonized over the horrible things I must have been "learning" hanging around a bunch of crusty old pilots in an airplane hangar all the time, at the tender age of 15!

I don't recognize that one-Airplane?

And please don't call me Shirley.

No... sorry to say that was from "The Life of Mrs. Desert Trailblazers." Didn't you see that one? It was a huge hit at the box office!

Newbie curiosity is getting the better of me here. If there are already two caches nearby(and that close)...is this the ONLY place to put a third?

Just axin'

Barb in Wyoming where there's plenty of wide open spaces for everyone.

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