How strict is .1 mile hiding rule?

February 17, 2010

While I'm not a newbie to the game, I'm a newbie to the hides. I went out to place some today and had all the areas caches loaded in to check my distance. I was sure I was over the .1 mile rule but the cache I was most excited to place is 453 ft. away ATCF from the closest one. By trail, which is the only reasonable way to get there given the terrain, it's a solid .2 miles.

Do reviewers ever make exceptions to the .1 mile rule given that it's a lot further on the actual trail and it's not a highly used area? Even the easy to get to caches around here never get more than 10 hits a year and that's on a good year.

8.6k · February 17, 2010

They are pretty strict on the distance guidelines involving traditional caches.

EDIT: Am fairly sure that 453 will not be approved.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Gitchee-Gummee

6.7k · February 17, 2010

The rule is fairly strict. There needs to be some formidable barrier between the caches before they will even consider it. A cliff, river or some such at the least. Even then it is on a case by case basis and you will need to show a compelling reason to the reviewer to even get them to think about it.

21.9k · February 17, 2010

Exceptions are made all the time, in cases like the following:

-- Cache A at top of Cliff, Cache B at the bottom.

-- Cache A on west bank of raging river with no nearby bridge, Cache B on east bank.

-- Cache A is a difficulty 5 puzzle cache, Cache B is a simple traditional 490 feet away.

-- Cache A and Cache B are 523 feet apart, and have different owners. "Close enough."

From what you've posted, it doesn't sound like there's a basis for an exception at that distance. I'd have to study maps and photos to make a definitive call from over here on the opposite side of the state. That is what your reviewer did before breaking the bad news to you.

2.4k · February 17, 2010

Any reviewers out there with the answer? My only thought would be to present it to your reviewer, and see what he/she has to say. It could be that the way the system is set up it won't work - but, you never know. The worst they can do is say "no." I am sure with some creative thinking, you'll find a way to bring people to this spot of yours. Could you make it a multi?

February 17, 2010

Thanks for the advice all. I haven't actually submitted it yet. I was crushed today when I saw it wasn't going to make it and not to give to much away it's a magnet in the woods type and I can't really move the magnetic thing. I was just really surprised to see that's all the distance was.

I still may give it a whirl for submission because to make it those 453 ft. opposed to walking the .2 miles down the trail you have to do one heck of a bushwhack down a steep hill then walk about 300 ft. through a rugged stream. I mean which one are you going to do? Rugged bushwhack through stream or .2 miles down trail? I've already typed up the description stating that bushwhacking is strongly discouraged - it really is - it's not a safe place to be making your own paths.

February 17, 2010

Any reviewers out there with the answer? My only thought would be to present it to your reviewer, and see what he/she has to say. It could be that the way the system is set up it won't work - but, you never know. The worst they can do is say "no." I am sure with some creative thinking, you'll find a way to bring people to this spot of yours. Could you make it a multi?

Why yes, yes I could make it a multi. Does the .1 mile rule not apply to multis? I've actually been trying to find info on this and have been coming up empty. I know there's a puzzle cache in the park and while I haven't been able to find it yet I wasn't sure if I need to stay out of distance from the final or the original (useless) coords?

Edited February 17, 2010 by flaffle

8.3k · February 17, 2010

Any reviewers out there with the answer? My only thought would be to present it to your reviewer, and see what he/she has to say. It could be that the way the system is set up it won't work - but, you never know. The worst they can do is say "no." I am sure with some creative thinking, you'll find a way to bring people to this spot of yours. Could you make it a multi?

Why yes, yes I could make it a multi. Does the .1 mile rule not apply to multis? I've actually been trying to find info on this and have been coming up empty. I know there's a puzzle cache in the park and while I haven't been able to find it yet I wasn't sure if I need to stay out of distance from the final or the original (useless) coords?

From the guidelines:

Cache containers and physical stages should generally be separated by a minimum of 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m). A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements.

So yes, your stages must be 0.1 mi from other caches, but between the stages of a multi three is no distance rule.

21.9k · February 17, 2010

Oops, sorry. I wrongly assumed that the cache had already been submitted and declined upon initial review. That is how these threads usually go.

If you think you have a shot, write it up and submit it. In a Reviewer Note, you will need to write a VERY persuasive argument about the insurmountable obstacles between your cache and its neighbor. You will face an uphill battle.

Converting to a multicache with this location as an intermediate or final stage won't help -- unless you fib about the cache location. Since your cache reviewer has found more than 3,000 caches just in eastern and central Pennsylvania, I advise against this. :huh:

For my attempt at a plain-English summary of the Cache Saturation guideline, please see this post in the FAQ Thread that's pinned at the top of this forum section.

February 17, 2010

I had my first cache rejected and it was 40 feet shy of the 528 feet minimum. So if you have my reviewer, it's pretty strict. Not complaining. Worked out fine. I just didn't think I was that close when I placed mine initially. I moved it so I was a little over the 0.1 mi and it was approved the second time around.

6.7k · February 17, 2010

Any reviewers out there with the answer? My only thought would be to present it to your reviewer, and see what he/she has to say. It could be that the way the system is set up it won't work - but, you never know. The worst they can do is say "no." I am sure with some creative thinking, you'll find a way to bring people to this spot of yours. Could you make it a multi?

Just so you know. Keystone is not just another pretty face, he is also a reviewer.

February 17, 2010

Oops, sorry. I wrongly assumed that the cache had already been submitted and declined upon initial review. That is how these threads usually go.

If you think you have a shot, write it up and submit it. In a Reviewer Note, you will need to write a VERY persuasive argument about the insurmountable obstacles between your cache and its neighbor. You will face an uphill battle.

Converting to a multicache with this location as an intermediate or final stage won't help -- unless you fib about the cache location. Since your cache reviewer has found more than 3,000 caches just in eastern and central Pennsylvania, I advise against this.

For my attempt at a plain-English summary of the Cache Saturation guideline, please see this post in the FAQ Thread that's pinned at the top of this forum section.

Persuasive arguments are how I make a living so I'll enjoy the challenge if nothing else. The good news is I don't have to lie - it's a lot more fun to find and prove a truth. The coords on the nearby cache are notoriously off by 80 to 100 ft. On the other hand, I don't want to anger my reviewer on my first hide.....

February 17, 2010

Hi,

Ain't it just soooo frustrating when you find that perfect hide, and some rotten cow has put one too close to it.

4.8k · February 17, 2010

I mean which one are you going to do? Rugged bushwhack through stream or .2 miles down trail?

To be honest, if there were no restrictions on off trail use in the area, I'd probably hesitate a minute or two and ask myself, "What would Baer Grylls do?"

Bushwacking is not something that comes between me and a cache

3.2k · February 17, 2010

I mean which one are you going to do? Rugged bushwhack through stream or .2 miles down trail?

To be honest, if there were no restrictions on off trail use in the area, I'd probably hesitate a minute or two and ask myself, "What would Baer Grylls do?"

Bushwacking is not something that comes between me and a cache

Yes.. One guy's rugged bushwhack is someone else's run in the woods.

7.3k · February 17, 2010

Let me toss out an option, although from what you've described, this may not be applicable.

Use the object as a virtual stage. NO PHYSICAL PLACEMENT THERE. Place your physical cache(s) elsewhere, and use bearing and distance statements to bring cachers to the spot and away from the spot. You'll need a physical container with log at the end of the multi. Those physical stages clear the other hides in the area by at least .1 miles.

If the point of the cache was the find of a magnetic cache on the object, this isn't going to help.

A cache of mine that starts with a physical stage, goes to virtual stage (I could not place a physical cache there because of a nearby multi-cache stage) and ends elsewhere at an ammo can. In the first cache are instruction sheets. They provide coords for the cool object and bearing and distance from it to the final.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Isonzo Karst

February 17, 2010

A cache of mine that starts with a physical stage, goes to virtual stage (I could not place a physical cache there because of a nearby multi-cache stage) and ends elsewhere at an ammo can. In the first cache are instruction sheets. They provide coords for the cool object and bearing and distance from it to the final.

The way I read the rules that is not allowed either. It says if you place something at the site then it still has to be the .1 mile away, because its a physical stage, not a non-physical stage

A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

February 17, 2010

After sleeping on it, I'm not going to submit it. The arguments I would ultimately have to make would make me sound like a cocky little twit. I don't think that's how I want to start the relationship with the reviewer.

It's just not far enough away and I need to deal with it. I should probably check that in the future before I make the container.

But I'm still unclear on the nearby puzzle cache. The coords for that one are useless (well they drop you in the parking lot in this case). But unless you've sat at home with wikipedia and solved the puzzle you're not going anywhere. I understand I need to stay away from the final container but do I also have to stay away from the original coords even though there's nothing physically hidden there?

18.9k · February 17, 2010

.... I understand I need to stay away from the final container but do I also have to stay away from the original coords even though there's nothing physically hidden there?

No - listed puzzle cache coords are known to be bogus and you need not avoid them or apply the 528 guideline.

8.3k · February 17, 2010

A cache of mine that starts with a physical stage, goes to virtual stage (I could not place a physical cache there because of a nearby multi-cache stage) and ends elsewhere at an ammo can. In the first cache are instruction sheets. They provide coords for the cool object and bearing and distance from it to the final.

The way I read the rules that is not allowed either. It says if you place something at the site then it still has to be the .1 mile away, because its a physical stage, not a non-physical stage

A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

The described situation complies. WP1 is a physical stage not closer than 0.1 mi to another physical container, WP2 is a non-physical point to take an offset to the physical final. The final observes the 0.1 mi limit. WP2, since it is not a physical container, does not need to observe the 0.1 mile limit.

February 17, 2010

i haven't submitted my cache for review yet, but i wrote this as the reviewers note. think it'll get aproved?

"A good friend, geocaching buddy, car community friend, died in a car accident Valentines Day morning on the street next to this park.

All friends gathered that day as well as the next day to leave a memorial and to remember our friend.

I gave Dan a small bison tube last week to make a geocache out of, and we surprisingly found it attached to his car keys yesterday after his possessions were received. So we agreed that we'd make a geocache close to the memorial using that bison tube.

However, there is another geocache in the park area that is 270~ feet away. I contacted the cache owners with my request and they gave me permission to put my small cache within the distance.

GCD05A

I let the owners know of our lost friend from the accident and about the memorial we placed in the park.

here is their reply:

"Hello,

We are very sorry for your loss....

We have no objection to you placing a cache near to ours.

Stacy & Jerry"

I talked to some fellow cachers and somebody said that if a cache is based on memorial then it should be approved. As well as also having the approval from the owners of the nearby cache."

Edited February 17, 2010 by SubyJeff

9.2k · February 17, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

5.3k · February 17, 2010

Yep. Permission from the other cache owner won't matter. Not likely to be published here at that distance unless there is a cliff.

February 17, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

8k · February 17, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

It's nice to want to remember another cacher that way, but the reason you place the cache has little impact on whether it should be approved or not. In fact, someone might think that a memorial cache is promoting an agenda and that would conflict with other guidelines. If the local community really feel that it is imporant to memorialize this cacher by placing a cache at this particular park, the other cache owner could be persuade to archive or move their cache so you wouldn't have the proximity rule. A memorial cache doesn't have to be placed here just because it's near where the person died. Perhaps you can find another location that was important to this cacher to place the cache there.

3.9k · February 18, 2010

I talked to some fellow cachers and somebody said that if a cache is based on memorial then it should be approved. As well as also having the approval from the owners of the nearby cache."

Those cachers were wrong on both counts.

For a good friend, I'm sure you can find another spot 300 feet further away.

February 18, 2010

While I'm not a newbie to the game, I'm a newbie to the hides. I went out to place some today and had all the areas caches loaded in to check my distance. I was sure I was over the .1 mile rule but the cache I was most excited to place is 453 ft. away ATCF from the closest one. By trail, which is the only reasonable way to get there given the terrain, it's a solid .2 miles.

Do reviewers ever make exceptions to the .1 mile rule given that it's a lot further on the actual trail and it's not a highly used area? Even the easy to get to caches around here never get more than 10 hits a year and that's on a good year.

You could also turn it into a Wherigo cache. Wherigo's virtual points, or zones, are exempt from the 528 foot rule. Wherigo caches experience far fewer finds than traditional caches do, but Wherigo enthusiasits will travel great distances to do them.

Just a thought...

9.2k · February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

Yes. And...?

5.3k · February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

There's nothing in the guidelines that permits exceptions for "memorial caches".

February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

Yes. And...?

don't be rude. over what has happened this week, and the reason for my post, i don't need that kinda crap

February 18, 2010

While I'm not a newbie to the game, I'm a newbie to the hides. I went out to place some today and had all the areas caches loaded in to check my distance. I was sure I was over the .1 mile rule but the cache I was most excited to place is 453 ft. away ATCF from the closest one. By trail, which is the only reasonable way to get there given the terrain, it's a solid .2 miles.

Do reviewers ever make exceptions to the .1 mile rule given that it's a lot further on the actual trail and it's not a highly used area? Even the easy to get to caches around here never get more than 10 hits a year and that's on a good year.

You could also turn it into a Wherigo cache. Wherigo's virtual points, or zones, are exempt from the 528 foot rule. Wherigo caches experience far fewer finds than traditional caches do, but Wherigo enthusiasits will travel great distances to do them.

Just a thought...

that's an idea. thanks. i'll check that out.

38.2k · February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

That makes no difference. One alternative is to see if the people who own the nearby cache will archive theirs. Explain that it's a memorial to your friend. Who knows, maybe they will accommodate you.

Another alternative is to make it a multi with the first stage near the site of the accident being a virtual. Is there a street sign there, or something that can be counted? Hide the actual container .1 mile from the other cache, and use something at the accident site to provide the coordinates to the final stage.

For example, say the coordinates of the actual container are N41 21.234 W74 12.323 and there is a street sign at the accident site that says "No Parking".

Use the coordinates of the street sign as the cache coordinates. On your cache page mention that the actual cache is at N41._1._23 W74 1_.3_3 and tell searchers to visit the posted coordinates and count the number of letters in the first word on the sign and use that number to fill in the blanks to obtain the final coordinates.

3.3k · February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

Yes. And...?

don't be rude. over what has happened this week, and the reason for my post, i don't need that kinda crap

While this may not be what you wanted to read I really do not see it as rude or crap. The geocaching site is intentionally unemotional and unbiased. Your intent is undoubtedly good but the site and the operation of it are designed to filter out emotion and agendas. You have received some good suggestions so far and hopefully you will be able to find a way to honor your friend that works within the guidelines.

21.9k · February 18, 2010

270 feet? Not going to happen. The other cache owner's permission is irrelevant.

but as i stated from the whole story i posted, it's a memorial cache

My suggestion would be to ask the owners of the existing cache to archive their listing.

Recently I needed to turn down a multicache in a cemetery that already had four caches in it. Stage one was at the grave of the owner's first wife, and stage two was at the (future) resting place of the owner's current wife.

It took every ounce of professionalism in me to resist suggesting that the owner should get a third wife, find a plot more than 528 feet from any other cache, and make the first two wives into virtual multicache stages.

So no, there's no special exception for memorials. Maybe a bit of extra understanding around the edges, but not at the cited distance.

I am sorry for the loss of your geocaching friend.

4.8k · February 18, 2010

There are also other ways to honor a good friend besides placing a cache :unsure:

Bud's Table

Members of the Geocachers of the Bay Area donated generously for this particular Travelbug placement. An awesome group of Geocachers in my book

February 21, 2010

A cache of mine that starts with a physical stage, goes to virtual stage (I could not place a physical cache there because of a nearby multi-cache stage) and ends elsewhere at an ammo can. In the first cache are instruction sheets. They provide coords for the cool object and bearing and distance from it to the final.

The way I read the rules that is not allowed either. It says if you place something at the site then it still has to be the .1 mile away, because its a physical stage, not a non-physical stage

A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

The described situation complies. WP1 is a physical stage not closer than 0.1 mi to another physical container, WP2 is a non-physical point to take an offset to the physical final. The final observes the 0.1 mi limit. WP2, since it is not a physical container, does not need to observe the 0.1 mile limit.

Sorry, I must have misread that. Maybe something was changed in the wording by that edit right as I quoted it or something?? Not sure how I would have taken what is quoted there the way I obviously did if I thought it wasn't allowed. Didn't mean to cause any confusion, sorry for the mixup.

How strict is .1 mile hiding rule?

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