Feature Request: Name of FTF on weekly newsletter

October 23, 2009

I enjoy looking at the list of new caches placed near me in the weekly Groundspeak newsletter. It think it would be cool to also add the name of the geocacher who got the FTF (if any).

It would be an extra sort of pat on the back for the FTF to know that his/her name was put in the newsletter. It would also be useful to figure out who the FTF hounds are around you and where they like to hunt (for example, if you see the same person pop up a lot but only in caches 10 miles to the south of you, you have an idea of where they like to do their FTF hunting).

October 23, 2009

There is no method on the website to capture the true FTF. TPTB have stated that they don't want to get into the FTF game at all. If individuals want to track them, that's fine, but nothing officially.

October 23, 2009

There is no method on the website to capture the true FTF.

Sure there is, the first "I found it" post.

October 23, 2009

There is no method on the website to capture the true FTF.

Sure there is, the first "I found it" post.

The first person to post isn't always the FTF. It takes some people longer to get home and log than it does other.

3.3k · October 23, 2009

While I enjoy going for the occasional FTF I understand it is an unofficial part of the game and would vote to keep it that way. There are already enough times when the FTF race gets out of hand and officially acknowledging the FTF in some way would likely only serve to make it worse.

1.5k · October 23, 2009

There is no way for Groundspeak to verify FTF claims. There has been more than one occasion around here when two people claimed to be FTF after one signed the beginning of the a long scroll log and the other unrolled the entire scroll and signed that end. There are also times when the FTF cacher takes several hours to several days to log their find for a variety of reasons. Then, there are those who think it's fun not to log their FTF to keep the FTF game "alive." At any rate, those who really care have ways of tracking FTFs...bookmark lists, personal profiles, GSAK, etc.

October 23, 2009

There is no method on the website to capture the true FTF.

Sure there is, the first "I found it" post.

The first person to post isn't always the FTF. It takes some people longer to get home and log than it does other.

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

15.3k · October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers

Around here, most geocachers understand the difference between FTF and FTL...

9.2k · October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

Nope. FTF is the first person to sign the paper log. The site has no way to determine that, nor would the programmers bother, since FTF is not officially recognized by Groundspeak. As far as they're concerned, it's just another Find log.

1.5k · October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

I don't know about "most" geocachers feeling that the first to log (FTL) equates to the first to find. Many times, 2TF, etc., will hold off on their logs as a "courtesy" to the FTF, but now always. In that case, a cacher will sometimes log, "FTL, but not FTF."

I admit not be able to control an eyeroll when I see logs that say "co-FTF" with one or more people...really...everyone in the group saw the cache at the exact same moment in time? Someone, the FTF, was the first to see it, and therefore find it, which is difinitely a different act than being quickest to log it. And, don't confuse first to see it with FTF, either...sometimes cachers will see the cache, but can't physically get to it to sign the log, which established the real FTF.

Hence, my disagreement with armchair puzzle cache logging, but that's a separate thread elsewhere in here...

Edited October 23, 2009 by Ladybug Kids

7.7k · October 23, 2009

Apart from the difficulty in implementing this (require CO to list who is FTF?) I think this is not a good idea. The newsletter has always been about geocaches (and news and events), not geocachers.

October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

I don't know about "most" geocachers feeling that the first to log (FTL) equates to the first to find. Many times, 2TF, etc., will hold off on their logs as a "courtesy" to the FTF, but now always. In that case, a cacher will sometimes log, "FTL, but not FTF."

Sorry, I don't know if that quoted section of mine was clear - what I meant to say is that I think most 2nd (or later) to find geocachers understand that they shouldn't post an "i found it log" before the FTF posts. But even if they did I don't think it's that big of a deal for the FTF to not get his/her name in the weekly newsletter. I just thought it might be a fun addition to the newsletter.

7.7k · October 23, 2009

Sorry, I don't know if that quoted section of mine was clear - what I meant to say is that I think most 2nd (or later) to find geocachers understand that they shouldn't post an "i found it log" before the FTF posts.

I wouldn't, and I think most wouldn't bother either. I might wait a bit, but there's no way I'm going to hold off logging for long so that the FTF can log first. I'd note that another person beat me to the FTF though.

8.9k · October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

I don't know about "most" geocachers feeling that the first to log (FTL) equates to the first to find. Many times, 2TF, etc., will hold off on their logs as a "courtesy" to the FTF, but now always. In that case, a cacher will sometimes log, "FTL, but not FTF."

Sorry, I don't know if that quoted section of mine was clear - what I meant to say is that I think most 2nd (or later) to find geocachers understand that they shouldn't post an "i found it log" before the FTF posts. But even if they did I don't think it's that big of a deal for the FTF to not get his/her name in the weekly newsletter. I just thought it might be a fun addition to the newsletter.

I actually think this is kind of funny. What you're saying is that you expect people to be honest when it comes to logging FTF and hold off. How can you expect people to be honest when there's some type of incentive (name in the mailer) when there's someone logging 300 bogus finds on virtuals with no incentive.

I think I would say no.

October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

I don't know about "most" geocachers feeling that the first to log (FTL) equates to the first to find. Many times, 2TF, etc., will hold off on their logs as a "courtesy" to the FTF, but now always. In that case, a cacher will sometimes log, "FTL, but not FTF."

Sorry, I don't know if that quoted section of mine was clear - what I meant to say is that I think most 2nd (or later) to find geocachers understand that they shouldn't post an "i found it log" before the FTF posts. But even if they did I don't think it's that big of a deal for the FTF to not get his/her name in the weekly newsletter. I just thought it might be a fun addition to the newsletter.

I actually think this is kind of funny. What you're saying is that you expect people to be honest when it comes to logging FTF and hold off. How can you expect people to be honest when there's some type of incentive (name in the mailer) when there's someone logging 300 bogus finds on virtuals with no incentive.

I think I would say no.

Ok, I obviously wasn't clear in my last x number of posts. What I'm saying is that it is NOT PERFECT, it is NOT FOOLPROOF, I understand that. But I think it could be a fun addition to the newsletter anyways. I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log, and for 95% of the caches listed in the newsletter, this would be a fun addition. For the other 5%, well sorry FTFers but it's not foolproof. I just think it would be a fun addition. I am not campaigning/protesting/gathering molotov cocktails in an effort to actually have this suggestion put into place, I just think it might be a fun addition.

Edited October 23, 2009 by hoyshnin

6.7k · October 23, 2009

If you check the guidelines there are none that pertain to the FTF race. Groundspeak does not recognize, officially, the FTF race. I don't expect that they will start now.

15.3k · October 23, 2009

I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log

FWIW, I just did an informal, unscientific survey of 20 of the caches that I've found. For 20% of them, the first log was explicitly not the FTF. And this is without any incentive to be the first to log.

Interestingly, one had a bogus "Greetings from Germany" log that predated the cache hide, and a few others had several logs on the publication date, but none of them referred to FTF, STF, etc. I didn't count those towards the 20%.

Regardless, I think that formally recognizing FTF/FTL (including publishing in the weekly newsletter) would be counterproductive.

10.2k · October 23, 2009

The first person to post an "i found it" log should be the ftf, at as understood by most geocachers, and if someone beats them to the post, big deal, it's just a small pat on the back for the ftf to get his/her name in the newsletter.

I don't know about "most" geocachers feeling that the first to log (FTL) equates to the first to find. Many times, 2TF, etc., will hold off on their logs as a "courtesy" to the FTF, but now always. In that case, a cacher will sometimes log, "FTL, but not FTF."

Sorry, I don't know if that quoted section of mine was clear - what I meant to say is that I think most 2nd (or later) to find geocachers understand that they shouldn't post an "i found it log" before the FTF posts. But even if they did I don't think it's that big of a deal for the FTF to not get his/her name in the weekly newsletter. I just thought it might be a fun addition to the newsletter.

I actually think this is kind of funny. What you're saying is that you expect people to be honest when it comes to logging FTF and hold off. How can you expect people to be honest when there's some type of incentive (name in the mailer) when there's someone logging 300 bogus finds on virtuals with no incentive.

I think I would say no.

Ok, I obviously wasn't clear in my last x number of posts. What I'm saying is that it is NOT PERFECT, it is NOT FOOLPROOF, I understand that. But I think it could be a fun addition to the newsletter anyways. I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log, and for 95% of the caches listed in the newsletter, this would be a fun addition. For the other 5%, well sorry FTFers but it's not foolproof. I just think it would be a fun addition. I am not campaigning/protesting/gathering molotov cocktails in an effort to actually have this suggestion put into place, I just think it might be a fun addition.

I hope you're not getting frustrated, I could have predicted the responses. :anicute: The point to remember is that the FTF race is not sanctioned by Groundspeak. The closest they've ever come is the "instant notification" feature of newly published caches. And that's not just an FTF tool, I like it and use it, and I haven't purposely gone after an FTF in at least 4 years. Which is another point, I guess. I'd say most Geocachers couldn't give a hoot about who is FTF. You have the grumpy old farts like me, and vast legions of "casual" Geocachers. The whole FTF thing is really only played out by a small number of people in any particular area. Oh and another thing (I'm rambling here) I've gone out of my way on a couple of occasions when I was accidental FTF to tell the cache owners not to immortalize me for all eternity on the cache page. I certainly wouldn't want it to happen in the newsletter.

2.8k · October 23, 2009

Ok, I obviously wasn't clear in my last x number of posts. What I'm saying is that it is NOT PERFECT, it is NOT FOOLPROOF, I understand that. But I think it could be a fun addition to the newsletter anyways. I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log, and for 95% of the caches listed in the newsletter, this would be a fun addition. For the other 5%, well sorry FTFers but it's not foolproof. I just think it would be a fun addition. I am not campaigning/protesting/gathering molotov cocktails in an effort to actually have this suggestion put into place, I just think it might be a fun addition.

If it's not PERFECT and it's not FOOLPROOF, it's not RIGHT!

What if a kid out with his parents is FTF and then the next newsletter he is expecting his name to show up and the name of someone else is there instead? How would s/he feel? How is that 'fun' for them?

No, it wouldn't be 'fun' and for areas where there are FTF whores that get them all the time, why do I want to see that?

I also vote no.

2.3k · October 23, 2009

In this area, anyway, the FTF hounds take that part of geocaching very seriously (let the record show that I am not one of them :anicute: ). I can easily imagine that if any one of them didn't get their proper "credit" for an FTF in the weekly newsletter, formal protests would follow quickly.

Given the imperfect art of determining who is FTF, I vote an emphatic no.

--Larry

3.3k · October 23, 2009

I vote no on the grounds that is a lame idea that does fit into Groundspeak's vision that geocaching isn't a competition. I get the mailer to see new events, caches etc, not to see who was "king of the FTFs" for the day. Nobody else really cares if you are FTF.

1.4k · October 24, 2009

Ok, I obviously wasn't clear in my last x number of posts. What I'm saying is that it is NOT PERFECT, it is NOT FOOLPROOF, I understand that. But I think it could be a fun addition to the newsletter anyways. I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log, and for 95% of the caches listed in the newsletter, this would be a fun addition. For the other 5%, well sorry FTFers but it's not foolproof. I just think it would be a fun addition. I am not campaigning/protesting/gathering molotov cocktails in an effort to actually have this suggestion put into place, I just think it might be a fun addition.

Around here it's more like 50%-75% of the time that the FTF is actually the FTL.

Sorry, this is just a bad idea. Since Groundspeak has said they won't get involved in the FTF game it's not a stat they can/will track, so putting it in the weekly newsletter simply isn't going to happen since it won't be accurate.

4.7k · October 24, 2009

well, if i'm the firstfinder, it'll be a while before i log. i am currently only 20 days behind in my logging, which is unusually prompt for me.

i spend on average an hour each day working on my logs, but it's a project.

i don't give a rat's patootie if some else logs before i do, and i prefer not to have my name whored out on the cache page to advertise that i was firstfinder.

it think it's crass, and i certainly don't want to see it in the newsletter.

before you consider me to be a sour grapes whiner who does not get to firstfinds, for a time i was the firstfinder on EVERY new cache in this state, as well as parts of two neighboring states and southern quebec. i thought nothing of getting out of bed at oh-dark-thirty to drive four hundred miles for a firstfind.

after a while it just stopped being sporting, being there first all the time. i stopped caring.

as for co-FTF, my usual partner and i consider it to be a joint firstfind because we both decided at an early stage in our game play that we were a team, and did not compete against each other. when we reach a search area, we divide the labor, as in "i'll take this side of the trail and you take that side." sometimes we both know where the cache is going to be, but since we are a team don't knock each other over to get there one ahead of the other.

we have found it, and that's all that's important to us.

..and three months later we will finally get around to logging it. if someone else comes and "claims" they found it first, we don't bother to refute the claim. everybody who needs to know the truth knows already.

1.2k · October 24, 2009

First, the first name on the physical log in the cache is the FTF. Doesn't matter when they log, or even if they log it online.

If FTL was allowed, then logging is a logistical issue. Those that traveled the furthest to find it will log when they get home. Anyone that lives down the street has an advantage.

And those people with an iPhone (or other onsite logging device) will be able to log immediately.

Nope, it's first to sign the log.

And, no, I do not want it on the newsletter. It would just create a new nightmare for TPTB folks - whose going to litigate that?

8k · October 24, 2009

Congratulations to hoyshnin on his 4th FTF in 30 cache finds yesterday. I was 2nd to find and can verify his signature was in the log. I also got a FTF on the other new cache in that park, the one that was a decon container wrapped in camo tape hanging in a bush. It was really hard to see even in the middle of the day with good light. So it's no wonder that hoyshnin couldn't find it when he went out before dawn trying to get two FTFs.

There, it's in the forums so now there is no reason to list it in the newsletter :anicute:

10.2k · October 24, 2009

Congratulations to hoyshnin on his 4th FTF in 30 cache finds yesterday. I was 2nd to find and can verify his signature was in the log. I also got a FTF on the other new cache in that park, the one that was a decon container wrapped in camo tape hanging in a bush. It was really hard to see even in the middle of the day with good light. So it's no wonder that hoyshnin couldn't find it when he went out before dawn trying to get two FTFs.

There, it's in the forums so now there is no reason to list it in the newsletter

Crud, and it doesn't appear that Yo' Marty is one of those cache owners who immortalize the FTF for all eternity on the cache page. He sure looks like a zany character though.

1.9k · October 24, 2009

There is no method on the website to capture the true FTF.

Sure there is, the first "I found it" post.

The first person to post isn't always the FTF. It takes some people longer to get home and log than it does other.

And some people delay logging to keep the hope alive longer.

October 25, 2009

I enjoy looking at the list of new caches placed near me in the weekly Groundspeak newsletter. It think it would be cool to also add the name of the geocacher who got the FTF (if any).

It would be an extra sort of pat on the back for the FTF to know that his/her name was put in the newsletter. It would also be useful to figure out who the FTF hounds are around you and where they like to hunt (for example, if you see the same person pop up a lot but only in caches 10 miles to the south of you, you have an idea of where they like to do their FTF hunting).

After reading all the other posts I think that I agree with the majority of other posters. Not only do I not see GS ever implementing this on their own position of "not a competition", but sorting out if one person made the FTF or there were two or more people/groups how would the great frog clairfy that.

Yes, you are just trying to add something to the game, but I think that it would do more harm than good. Too many people just want to see their name in lights (simular to this) and they would do whatever they can to get to that end.

FTF hounds often have a very extensive list of FTFs that they have created, and there are some in my area which have over 200 FTFs with no apparent reason for large numbers like this.

For the rest of us who have a small number of FTFs either want to fit in with the high burners (see name in lights above) or we have a goal in mind (as in my case) such as the Challenge caches for 100 FTFs.

So overall I say "No" to this particular idea.

MYater

October 25, 2009

As others stated before, the FTF is an unofficial part of the game that should be kept local to the communities.

3.6k · October 26, 2009

well, if i'm the firstfinder, it'll be a while before i log. i am currently only 20 days behind in my logging, which is unusually prompt for me.

That's how it is around here. Some people are quick to log and some are slower. If you had to wait for the FTFs to log in, you could be waiting a couple weeks.

For me, I'll log the cache when it's convenient for me, even if it's before the person that found it first. Depending on the situation and my mood, I'll sometimes say I tried for the FTF but was beat out, and other times I'll log it normally, as if I was 125th to find.

I vote no.

5.3k · October 28, 2009

But I think it could be a fun addition to the newsletter anyways. I think 95% of the time it IS the actual FTF that posts the first "i found it" log, and for 95% of the caches listed in the newsletter, this would be a fun addition. For the other 5%, well sorry FTFers but it's not foolproof.

You keep using that word "fun." I do not think it means what you think it means.

The FTF "game" causes more angst and interpersonal strife than any other aspect of geocaching. It creates many problems, and Groundspeak has wisely chosen not to make it part of Geocaching. I vote no.

1k · October 28, 2009

You could always look up all the new caches in your area, locate the FTF log, and send a weekly email to your local caching group with all of the information you want to post. Maybe, you could even start a post in the "Geocaching Groups by Region/State" forums site and do a weekly log if you want. These are some ideas that you can do if you want. You will also get direct feedback on how other cachers feel about this subject.

In general, each area has FTF hounds. There are several people who always come in second. I have found several FTF's but I do not actively pursue them. I am able to get them because I work for the Fire Department and I work 48 hours straight and then have 96 hours off. If any caches come out that are within a few miles of me during this 96 hour period, during normal business hours, and do not take time away from my family, I will consider going after.

I would also vote "no" on something like this. It only promotes those that "want" FTF's to now go out at all times of the day, which most of them do anyways, and damage areas that are sensitive because they are stomping all over things in the dark. FTF's, IMHO, are just personal accolades that have no real bearing in life except for the ability to say that you have some.

Feature Request: Name of FTF on weekly newsletter

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