Guideline-Question: Logging events only after logging a physical logbook at the event?

[+bulldraga]

hi to all!

 

we are discussing a question here and would like to have some opinions... if there is some kind of official rule, even better!

 

Event-Caches:

at events with a lot of participants the organizer can not track every single geocacher present. to check if there are bogus logs on the event-listing after the event, often the event-makers use a standard logbook that has to be signed by the participants. we have also seen that the organizers hide a real cache that the attendees have to search and log (often its some sort of a very funny cache-container or location etc.).

 

in the guidelines there is nothing written that you should/can do so - so there are guys here that say: "it's not forbidden in the guidelines, but it is also not WRITTEN in the guidelines, so you cannot do this!"

 

our question is: can the organizer of an event oblige the participants to search and log the event-cache physically? can he cancel "attended"-logs from participants that haven't signed this event-cache?

 

thx for your time and help :-)

 

p.s.: did a search on the forum and checked more than an hour on the results but couldn't find nothing satisfying.

[+bittsen]

hi to all!

 

we are discussing a question here and would like to have some opinions... if there is some kind of official rule, even better!

 

Event-Caches:

at events with a lot of participants the organizer can not track every single geocacher present. to check if there are bogus logs on the event-listing after the event, often the event-makers use a standard logbook that has to be signed by the participants. we have also seen that the organizers hide a real cache that the attendees have to search and log (often its some sort of a very funny cache-container or location etc.).

 

in the guidelines there is nothing written that you should/can do so - so there are guys here that say: "it's not forbidden in the guidelines, but it is also not WRITTEN in the guidelines, so you cannot do this!"

 

our question is: can the organizer of an event oblige the participants to search and log the event-cache physically? can he cancel "attended"-logs from participants that haven't signed this event-cache?

 

thx for your time and help :-)

 

p.s.: did a search on the forum and checked more than an hour on the results but couldn't find nothing satisfying.

 

I'm no authority but the guidelines state that ALRs are not allowed. My understanding is that an event cache is able to be logged if you attended. Making participants search for a cache to log an event cache sounds like an ALR to me.

 

I could be wrong.

[+bulldraga]

hmm... ALR, right. could be. but what is the sense of the "difficulty" of an event then? how can the organizers keep track of the participants if not by having them writing their cacher-name in some kind of logbook?

[+Pax42]

I have to ask, why does it matter. If you have an event that cachers attend and have a good time at, but someone then logs as attending that didn't, does it really hurt anyone else. I imagine any local cacher that does that would get the cold shoulder at any future events they attend.

[+StarBrand]

Is this a problem where you live??

 

I've never seen any event where I didn't see or talk to everybody that later logged it.

 

Most I have attended have a simple sign-in sheet at the door.

[+bulldraga]

no, its not a real problem... also we attended events with so many geocachers that one can never talk to everybody present in 10h time.

 

the idea is to "hide" a particular cache-container that is some fun finding and logging it. to have a great number of participants go for this cache, we want to put the normal "sign-in-sheat"/"event-logbook"/"event-diary" into this cache-container. without thinking to control bogus-logs after the event, we want to write a line on the event-listing, saying that for validating the event one needs to go for this cache.

 

this is were the whole discussion started. now it became some kind of a theoretical discussion on the guidelines.. just for the sake of the dispute.

[+ArcherDragoon]

For the events I have been to...at least what I can recall...it is just a log sheet/notebook at the door...or main table...or what ever the case may be...no need in requiring a person to find something...besides being able to make your way to the event...

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I would say that requiring the attendees to search for a particular cache would fall outside the "Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines" the way I read this section.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#event

... an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+The Blorenges]

I would not be a happy bunny if I attended an Event and then discovered that I could only log an "Attended" log if I had found some cache hidden nearby.

 

My feeling is that Event Log books are a fairly recent development - at least they are on this side of The Pond. I'm pretty sure that the first few events we attended (2006/7) didn't have any logbooks to be signed - We just turned up, socialised, went home and logged "attended".

 

MrsB

[+tozainamboku]

Interesting idea. You must find the temporary event cache in order to a log an Attended on the event. It's different that the usual you may log an extra Attended log if you find the temporary event cache.

[+EscapeFromFlatland]

So if one attends the event, adds TBs to the event listing and trades them, but does not find the hidden cache at the event, do they log a DNF and list the TBs as missing?

[+bulldraga]

yeh ok ok... no cache! :-)

 

but remains the question: signing the "sign-in-sheet" or "event-logbook" can be obliged or not?

[+The Blorenges]

yeh ok ok... no cache! :-)

 

but remains the question: signing the "sign-in-sheet" or "event-logbook" can be obliged or not?

 

I don't know the answer, but I think I'd vote "not obliged" if it's just a regular event. (Just my opinion - It'll be interesting to see what others say about this.)

 

But

 

Those who organise Flash Mob events usually ask those attending to register their attendance on a pre-signed card or something, to save time. I think this is understandable.

 

We were asked to sign in at both the UK Mega events which we have attended. I assumed that this was required in case the organisers had to "prove" attendance numbers at some later date.

 

MrsB

[GOF and Bacall]

yeh ok ok... no cache! :-)

 

but remains the question: signing the "sign-in-sheet" or "event-logbook" can be obliged or not?

 

I don't know the answer, but I think I'd vote "not obliged" if it's just a regular event. (Just my opinion - It'll be interesting to see what others say about this.)

 

But

 

Those who organise Flash Mob events usually ask those attending to register their attendance on a pre-signed card or something, to save time. I think this is understandable.

 

We were asked to sign in at both the UK Mega events which we have attended. I assumed that this was required in case the organisers had to "prove" attendance numbers at some later date.

 

MrsB

 

I would not be too concerned about log signatures for an event. I would, however, delete a log by someone I knew for sure was not there.

[+briansnat]

My feeling is that Event Log books are a fairly recent development - at least they are on this side of The Pond

 

It's fairly recent here too. Events around here never used to have logs, but I see them more and more. Unless I happen to see the logbook, signing one doesn't even cross my mind and I often don't. I never had an attended log deleted for not doing so.

Edited September 22, 2009 by briansnat

[+Mudfrog]

Most of the events i've attended had a logbook, logsheet, or login screen set up on a computer for everyone to sign in on. These are always set up at the door or where they are easily seen so that everyone who comes in doesn't miss it.

 

However, i don't really think they are setup to guard against false loggers,,, it's mostly just cool getting to have a record of everyone who attended, for the owner and maybe for others who are curious as well.

[+sbell111]

I'm not much of an event attendee, but I have seen logbooks at events around here for several years.

 

I don't know how many event 'owners' actually delete the logs of people who don't sign in, but I doubt that it would be considered a guidelines violation to do so. That being said, I think that if these event holders were to hold people to signing the log it would behoove them to actively make sure that people know about it.

[+Unkle Fester]

I would not be a happy bunny if I attended an Event and then discovered that I could only log an "Attended" log if I had found some cache hidden nearby.

<snip > <bold added for emphasis>

 

MrsB

That is a great little phrase, can I use it in the future? Imagin a 6 foot tall man with a shaved head and a scowl on his face saying "I'm not a happy bunny"... ROFL!

 

My wife and I put on an event, the log was a giant birthday card. We set it up so that you had to sign in to get a raffle ticket.

 

Every event I've been to (over 20 of 'em) all have had some sort of log sheet, sign in, finger prints, DNA sample station, Retina scan - something to show you were there. Even the Flash mob did that.

 

If it's not a guideline, I wouldn't mind if it was. Either way.

[+Knight2000]

This seems like a lot of work just because someone is worried about someone else getting a smiley. Besides, not all events have log books.

[+sbell111]

This seems like a lot of work just because someone is worried about someone else getting a smiley. Besides, not all events have log books.

Events without log books obviously would not require a signature. I'm not sure how that invalidates those events that have a log book, however.

[+racingmissy]

Having a log sheet might help if the organized received any donations. They can show that X amount of people attended. Also helps to have records if they are planning on doing it again.

[+The Blorenges]

I would not be a happy bunny if I attended an Event and then discovered that I could only log an "Attended" log if I had found some cache hidden nearby.

<snip > <bold added for emphasis>

 

MrsB

That is a great little phrase, can I use it in the future? Imagin a 6 foot tall man with a shaved head and a scowl on his face saying "I'm not a happy bunny"... ROFL!

 

Feel free... Don't forget to clench your fists and stamp your feet a bit too.

 

I'm saving this Happy Bunny pic to use here on these forums at an appropriate time.

 

 

 

Most of the events i've attended had a logbook, logsheet, or login screen set up on a computer for everyone to sign in on. These are always set up at the door or where they are easily seen so that everyone who comes in doesn't miss it.

 

However, i don't really think they are setup to guard against false loggers,,, it's mostly just cool getting to have a record of everyone who attended, for the owner and maybe for others who are curious as well.

 

I agree that for celebratory events it's very nice to have a logbook for signatures and good wishes.

 

MrsB

[+Rockin Roddy]

I would not be a happy bunny if I attended an Event and then discovered that I could only log an "Attended" log if I had found some cache hidden nearby.

 

My feeling is that Event Log books are a fairly recent development - at least they are on this side of The Pond. I'm pretty sure that the first few events we attended (2006/7) didn't have any logbooks to be signed - We just turned up, socialised, went home and logged "attended".

 

MrsB

 

I still do this. I rarely search out the "official" logbook and only bother to sign one should I happen upon it! Heh, most people KNOW when I've been to an event anyway

[+bulldraga]

events without logbook: its a thing between organizer and logger at the end

 

events with logbook: logbook must be placed at an easy reachable spot and the attendees have to be informed actively about the presence of a logbook. not signing the logbook theoretically can end up in having your log deleted by the organizer which would not be a violation of the guidelines.

 

would this be correct as a conclusion?

 

the whole story behind this thing is a very long one. at the end, no one wants to delete any log of nobody, but we would like to have some kind of logbook for rememberance purposes only. so we did put this phrase on the event listing: "Logging the event? To log the event its sufficient to sign the event logbook." and here started the discussion...

[+The Blorenges]

This is my understanding of the whole logbooks thing:

 

All physical container caches must contain some sort of logbook.

 

Event caches do not have to have a logbook for attendees to sign.

 

If an event organiser wishes to create a log book for their event that's fine, but they can not insist that all attendees sign the book. If a cacher fails to sign the log book but later logs the event on-line then the event organiser should not delete their "Attended" log based on the sole fact that they did not sign the event log book.

 

If an event organiser believes that an "Attended" log is false (i.e. that cacher was not present at the event, at any time) then the organiser would be within their right to delete the log.

 

Right.

 

Now who wants to argue with my interpretation?

 

MrsB

[+Castle Mischief]

I just took pictures and remembered faces at my event. I realize this becomes more difficult with more people.

[+wimseyguy]

Remember is is "Attended" for an event, and "Found" for other types.

 

It depends on your local customs. If there are always logs at events in your area, then continue this fine tradition. And if you want to alienate someone who logs an attended on your event but failed to sign the physical log, as the CO that is your option.

 

I don't think I've signed an actual log more than a handful of times in the nearly 100 events I've been to. But I proudly signed the logs at this special event.

[4x4van]

But I proudly signed the logs at this special event.

Now that is a cool idea for an event "log"!!!! "Don't forget to sign the log"

 

I hope that after the event, they coated those with some type of marine spar varnish or something to protect and preserve the signatures.

Edited September 23, 2009 by 4x4van