Kayaks a 4.5 Terrain.

[+coupleocachers]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

[Dinoprophet]

Absolutely. A 5-star terrain is supposed to be used* whenever a boat or other special equipment is required.

 

* that's according to the Clayjar system and popular consensus. I'm not sure it's specified directly on this site.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Dinoprophet

[+Team GPSaxophone]

A kayak isn't likely to be something you regularly carry around with you (at least, the average cacher wouldn't) so any cache requiring one should be rated 5 stars for terrain.

 

If you need a stick to retrieve a cache and there are plenty of them laying around then no, a stick wouldn't make a cache 5 stars.

[+Prime Suspect]

[+Lil Devil]

Just because you intend a cache to be found by kayak, doesn't mean some bozo won't try to find it without a kayak. Of course sometimes this increases the terrain rating beyond a five!

[+J-Way]

Technically, "special equipment" is rarely absolutely required.

Boat: Swim or wade

Scuba: Hold your breath

Climbing gear: Safety ropes are for sissies

 

There's a local cache on an island, so most people get to it by boat. Or you can just wade a few hundred yards from shore, because the water is never more than 3-4 ft deep between the island and the shore. It's rated 4.5.

 

Another local cache is rated 5 terrain because the owner claims you need a ladder. I just parked my truck under the cache and grabbed it. I don't consider my truck to be "special equipment", and would have rated this cache at about 2.5 stars.

 

I've heard of other caches incorrectly rated 5-stars because hider was in a canoe/kayak when the cache was hidden... or you could walk down a 3-star public trail from a nearby road. The correct rating for this cache should be 3-stars.

 

Or the 5-star cache on a road that requires a 4WD vehicle... or you could just walk 1/4 mile from a paved road.

 

Locally, most of the whitewater rivers are directly controlled for power production. You can use a kayak to get to that island if the river is "on", or you could wait until evening when they shut the turbines down (turn the river "off") and just rock-hop.

 

Use of "special equipment" is an indication that 5-stars might be justified, but you should always think about alternate ways to get to the cache.

[+coupleocachers]

Technically, "special equipment" is rarely absolutely required.

Boat: Swim or wade

Scuba: Hold your breath

Climbing gear: Safety ropes are for sissies

 

There's a local cache on an island, so most people get to it by boat. Or you can just wade a few hundred yards from shore, because the water is never more than 3-4 ft deep between the island and the shore. It's rated 4.5.

 

Another local cache is rated 5 terrain because the owner claims you need a ladder. I just parked my truck under the cache and grabbed it. I don't consider my truck to be "special equipment", and would have rated this cache at about 2.5 stars.

 

I've heard of other caches incorrectly rated 5-stars because hider was in a canoe/kayak when the cache was hidden... or you could walk down a 3-star public trail from a nearby road. The correct rating for this cache should be 3-stars.

 

Or the 5-star cache on a road that requires a 4WD vehicle... or you could just walk 1/4 mile from a paved road.

 

Locally, most of the whitewater rivers are directly controlled for power production. You can use a kayak to get to that island if the river is "on", or you could wait until evening when they shut the turbines down (turn the river "off") and just rock-hop.

 

Use of "special equipment" is an indication that 5-stars might be justified, but you should always think about alternate ways to get to the cache.

 

Yes but theese cache says no swimming allowed, and you can only access this cache by boat.

[Skippermark]

Just because you intend a cache to be found by kayak, doesn't mean some bozo won't try to find it without a kayak. Of course sometimes this increases the terrain rating beyond a five!

We took the easy easy to this cache, but the FTF took a more challenging route and swim to it.

 

Another cacher did a series of caches in a river, and rather than do it in a kayak or canoe like most people, they did a combination of swimming and "walking" to get to them. I can only imagine what someone would think seeing some guy come running down the sides of the river in the water.

 

I try to rate my caches for "average" cachers, so while people may swim to a cache and not need special equipment, most would. Same for a rock climbing cache. There are people who can scale a rock face without ropes, but most would never think of doing it without protection.

[+texasgrillchef]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

[+Rockin Roddy]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

 

Leave out the 4.5 and you're right!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Absolutely. A 5-star terrain is supposed to be used* whenever a boat or other special equipment is required.

 

* that's according to the Clayjar system and popular consensus. I'm not sure it's specified directly on this site.

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen in somewhere, however, I am pretty sure I recall reading that the automatic 5-star terrain rating should be used when "special equipment and/or skills are required".

 

While the popular consensus may stipulate that a cache should be rated 5 for terrain whenever a boat is required to retrieve it, I personally don't care for the practice.

 

Since the terrain rating can only go as high as a 5 the automatic maximum rating provides no distinction between a cache that is accessible with a recreational class kayak (which in some cases is only a step up from a $10 rubber raft or pool toy) and a good puff of wind in the right direction and a cache which might require above average paddling skills to safely navigate a kayak to the cache location.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

Ah, so rock climbing 30' should have a different rating than rock climbing 150'? Maybe on a rock climbing website. This is geocaching and out ratings are quite so technical. They're to give you an idea of the road ahead. If you need a kayak for any reason, it's a 5 star cache because it is special equipment.

 

Here's a cache that was designed to be a 5 star but due to low water levels they lowered the rating to 2. It's still more fun the way we did it, but I'm not going to demand that I get more stars in my stats as a result.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

Ah, so rock climbing 30' should have a different rating than rock climbing 150'? Maybe on a rock climbing website. This is geocaching and out ratings are quite so technical. They're to give you an idea of the road ahead. If you need a kayak for any reason, it's a 5 star cache because it is special equipment.

 

 

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

The rock climbing analogy is not really valid in this case. I'm not a climber but I am aware that there is a fairly universal rating system but how high you're off level ground doesn't really factor into the difficulty. Looking at what appears to be somewhat of a universal climbing rating system, it would be more like comparing a class 4 climb (Exposed climbing, following a ledge system for example. A rope would be used to belay past places where a fall could be lethal.) , and a 5.10 climb (Very sustained climbing. A weekend climber rarely feels comfortable in this range unless they do go EVERY weekend or has some natural talent.)

 

As an avid sea kayaker and occasional white water paddler, I am well aware of the difference in the degree of difficulty between paddling a small, calm lake and paddling in the open ocean with breaking waves. In the first case, you could put just about anyone in a kayak, hand them a paddle, and even if they've never been in a kayak before they'd most likely be able to manage getting out to an iisland a couple of hundred feet from shore and back. On technical whitewater, or on large open bodies of waters, someone without much experience might not make it 20' from shore before they were upside down. Tha's actually kind of fortunate because if they managed to paddle halfway to an island that was a mile off shore before capsizing there's a reasonable chance that they wouldn't survive unless they knew how to reenter a kayak in deep water (and hopefully had practiced doing it a lot).

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

Ah, so rock climbing 30' should have a different rating than rock climbing 150'? Maybe on a rock climbing website. This is geocaching and out ratings are quite so technical. They're to give you an idea of the road ahead. If you need a kayak for any reason, it's a 5 star cache because it is special equipment.

 

 

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

The rock climbing analogy is not really valid in this case. I'm not a climber but I am aware that there is a fairly universal rating system but how high you're off level ground doesn't really factor into the difficulty. Looking at what appears to be somewhat of a universal climbing rating system, it would be more like comparing a class 4 climb (Exposed climbing, following a ledge system for example. A rope would be used to belay past places where a fall could be lethal.) , and a 5.10 climb (Very sustained climbing. A weekend climber rarely feels comfortable in this range unless they do go EVERY weekend or has some natural talent.)

 

As an avid sea kayaker and occasional white water paddler, I am well aware of the difference in the degree of difficulty between paddling a small, calm lake and paddling in the open ocean with breaking waves. In the first case, you could put just about anyone in a kayak, hand them a paddle, and even if they've never been in a kayak before they'd most likely be able to manage getting out to an iisland a couple of hundred feet from shore and back. On technical whitewater, or on large open bodies of waters, someone without much experience might not make it 20' from shore before they were upside down. Tha's actually kind of fortunate because if they managed to paddle halfway to an island that was a mile off shore before capsizing there's a reasonable chance that they wouldn't survive unless they knew how to reenter a kayak in deep water (and hopefully had practiced doing it a lot).

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Should Kayak caches require to be a 5. Instead of a 4.5?

 

I can see if its a 4.5 if

1) You can walk to the cache in the winter when it freezes

2) You can swim to the cache if swimming is allowed

3) You can wade to the cache if wading is allowed

 

Could you imagine if someone who doesn't have a kayak wants to get a 1/4.5 and gets near the cache or learn you need a kayak for it.

 

I mean we have a kayak, but not everyone does.

 

Because there is a cache near us thats a 5/5 that requires you to have a stick and climb part of a tree to get the cache.

 

If thats a 5/5 shouldn't a kayak cache be a 5 terrain since it requires you to kayak. And it says no swimming.

 

What about the difference betwen kayaking on smooth wave free lake/river water and having to kayak on wavy ocean water, or white water on a river?

 

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two. Kayaking on smooth wave free water is MUCH easier than having to kayak on white water, or open ocean water & dealing with the waves.

 

THUS.... Kayaking should be given a 4.5 star or 5 star accordingly.

 

TGC

Ah, so rock climbing 30' should have a different rating than rock climbing 150'? Maybe on a rock climbing website. This is geocaching and out ratings are quite so technical. They're to give you an idea of the road ahead. If you need a kayak for any reason, it's a 5 star cache because it is special equipment.

 

 

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

The rock climbing analogy is not really valid in this case. I'm not a climber but I am aware that there is a fairly universal rating system but how high you're off level ground doesn't really factor into the difficulty. Looking at what appears to be somewhat of a universal climbing rating system, it would be more like comparing a class 4 climb (Exposed climbing, following a ledge system for example. A rope would be used to belay past places where a fall could be lethal.) , and a 5.10 climb (Very sustained climbing. A weekend climber rarely feels comfortable in this range unless they do go EVERY weekend or has some natural talent.)

 

As an avid sea kayaker and occasional white water paddler, I am well aware of the difference in the degree of difficulty between paddling a small, calm lake and paddling in the open ocean with breaking waves. In the first case, you could put just about anyone in a kayak, hand them a paddle, and even if they've never been in a kayak before they'd most likely be able to manage getting out to an iisland a couple of hundred feet from shore and back. On technical whitewater, or on large open bodies of waters, someone without much experience might not make it 20' from shore before they were upside down. Tha's actually kind of fortunate because if they managed to paddle halfway to an island that was a mile off shore before capsizing there's a reasonable chance that they wouldn't survive unless they knew how to reenter a kayak in deep water (and hopefully had practiced doing it a lot).

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

The 5 star rating has nothing to do with your skill level, it has to do with the equipment you need to bring.

 

In climbing, a 5.10 is much harder than a 5.4 but either way it still starts with 5.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Team GPSaxophone

[Clan Riffster]

COULDN"T that constitue the difference between 4.5 stars and 5? A Kayak cache/hide should allow the DIFFERENCE between those two.

I'M not SURE i AGREE with THIS reasoning. THE five STAR rating HAS to DO with WHAT equipment IS required FOR the AVERAGE seeker, and DOESN'T reflect THE degree OF skill REQUIRED to ACCESS that LOCATION. i WOULD think THE degree OF skill REQUIRED would BE assessed IN the DIFFICULTY rating, RATHER than THE terrain RATING.

[+Isonzo Karst]

The system has been in place a while.

 

It's a courtesy to use the 5 terrain rating as it both allows the non-boat owners to filter out the hide, and allows the boat owners to query for it. Yes, there are tough boat caches, and easy boat caches. But the correct terrain rating for all of them is 5.

 

Indeed, near me there are caches rated terrain 4 that can be accessed from the water, and are EASIER as a "terrain 5". I found one recently.

[+Chrysalides]

Seems like what some people are asking is that the rating be customized to their level.

 

I'll be happy to provide a geocaching concierge service where I will hand pick and adjust the difficulty / terrain settings for you. For additional fees, I will be happy to provide any additional equipment required. Comes with platinum level membership.

 

As for fees, we need to discuss this in person, but think American Express Black / Centurion.

 

 

 

And before I receive a cease and desist letter from Groundspeak, it's just a joke. But if anyone is going to do this, I demand either royalty or a free membership

[Skippermark]

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

Why not rate it a 5 terrain and then include additional info in the description, like saying there are Class III rapids involved, and it should only be done by experienced paddlers...something like that?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

Why not rate it a 5 terrain and then include additional info in the description, like saying there are Class III rapids involved, and it should only be done by experienced paddlers...something like that?

 

This probably makes the most sense since as Ikonzo Karst mentions, there has been a precedent for some time to identify kayak caches with a 5 star terrain rating.

 

To others that mentioned that the rating is based on the required equipment and not on the level of expertise required to use it effectively to reach the cache location, I am fully aware what the recommendation is now, and that it's been around for awhile. That doesn't mean I agree with the rationale behind it. I realize that my disagreement is never going to result in a guidelines change so this discussion is pretty much just academic.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I know that there is a recommendation that if you need a kayak that it's an automatic 5 star terrain rating, but what texasgrill chief and I are suggesting is that maybe the guideline is not ideal.

 

I'm not sure why but it seems like a lot of people don't recognize the amount of skill involved to paddle safely in technical whitewater or on the open ocean.

Why not rate it a 5 terrain and then include additional info in the description, like saying there are Class III rapids involved, and it should only be done by experienced paddlers...something like that?

 

This probably makes the most sense since as Ikonzo Karst mentions, there has been a precedent for some time to identify kayak caches with a 5 star terrain rating.

 

To others that mentioned that the rating is based on the required equipment and not on the level of expertise required to use it effectively to reach the cache location, I am fully aware what the recommendation is now, and that it's been around for awhile. That doesn't mean I agree with the rationale behind it. I realize that my disagreement is never going to result in a guidelines change so this discussion is pretty much just academic.

There are really so few of these caches out there that by giving them 5 stars it lets people know, "Hey, I've got to read the cache page for this one." Hopefully the cache owner has indicated what special equipment is required and how experienced you need to be with it to get the cache.

[+coupleocachers]

I do believe that skill should be in the difficulty instead of the terrian rating.

 

We did a cache that was a 1/4.5 but it says you may want a kayak but it is not needed since the cache is only 60 feet from the shore. And you can wade that is at least waist deep. Thats fine.

 

My problem with this is that it says no swimming is allowed, therefore a boat is a must. Then it should be a 5 terrian.

 

I have no problem if they mention swimming is allowed, i'm okay with the terrian, because technically if you are a swimmer you can swim to the cache, therefore no special equipment is needed.

 

I know an owner of a cache did a 18 mile kayak trip that was a 2/5 and decided that his caches were over rated for the islands and dropped them to 3 terrian because they were only .4 from the kayak launch however there is no swimming involved or wading to the islands.

 

These caches that i reference are in Delaware on a pond, but there is no swimming on the pond and any other access to the pond is private property. So in order to get the caches they require a kayak.

[Clan Riffster]

My problem with this is that it says no swimming is allowed, therefore a boat is a must.

That would make for an interesting argument for someone trying to enforce that policy:

SECURITY DUDE: "Sir, you are not allowed to swim in this pond, per Homeowner's Association Rule BR549"

CACHER: "Dude, I wasn't swimming. I was wading."

Edited August 13, 2009 by Clan Riffster

[+coupleocachers]

My problem with this is that it says no swimming is allowed, therefore a boat is a must.

That would make for an interesting argument for someone trying to enforce that policy:

SECURITY DUDE: "Sir, you are not allowed to swim in this pond, per Homeowner's Association Rule BR549"

CACHER: "Dude, I wasn't swimming. I was wading."

 

That would be really funning. Could you imagine?

 

SECUIRTY DUDE: "There is also no wading allowed.:

CACHER: "Dude, My boat sank to the bottom."

[+coupleocachers]

My brother dbzdude just put out a series called the Namekian Dragon balls. They are all rated from a 1.5 to 4.5 terrian system. We have on that you must crawl in a tunnel to reach it. Therefore its a 4.5 terrian, but people can easily grab it from outside the drain and are making it come loose and complaining that the terrian is to high and it should be a 2.

He also has another one that is a 1.2 mile hike uphill and downhill to a small trail. Once at the end of the trail you are still .10 from the cache on a inlet. There fore you must walk on a beach. Then you get to groundzero and must climb a tree since the inlet can flood therefore wading scomes in. And you climb about 5 feet up a tree to get the cache. And some one says that the terrian is a high on this cache and it should be a 2.5.

 

What are you opinions?

 

Also there are is now a series of 4 caches that are only accessible by kayak that are 4 terrians. But its only by Kayak. it kinds of through the purpose off.

 

I helped a new cacher who had a kayak cache rated has a 1.5/1.5 and told them about pqs for people who wanted to do a power run and got to that cache and relaized they needed a kayak it would be disappointed so they changed it to a five and sent them the clayjar system.

 

I wish Groundspeak wouldn't approve caches that are below a 5 with out special equipment.

[+CanadianRockies]

I wish Groundspeak wouldn't approve caches that are below a 5 with out special equipment.

I'm glad they do, since not all special equipment caches are equally difficult. I prefer to see the special equipment mentioned in the cache description and attributes. That way, the terrain rating can be used for its primary purpose: indicating how hard it is to reach Ground Zero.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I do not have a kayak. A kayak is needed to reach that cache. (UNless I wait for winter and walk over the ice.)

Special equipment is needed: a kayak. That is one of the definitions of 5 terrain. Mark it as 5 terrain.

Seems fairly simple.

[+Planet]

Please rate it a 5 so it will come up in my PQ. It's a 5.

[+CanadianRockies]

Please rate it a 5 so it will come up in my PQ.

Please put a "Boat Required" attribute on the cache so it will come up on people's PQs. Then rate the terrain from 1 to 5 based on how difficult it is for people to reach Ground Zero, so people have additional helpful information.

[+niraD]

Is a kayak or other boat really required? Or could someone swim (or even hike) to the cache location?

 

Is a 4x4 vehicle really required? Or could someone hike from the nearest trailhead that is accessible by normal passenger vehicles?

[+stijnhommes]

Technically, "special equipment" is rarely absolutely required.

Boat: Swim or wade

Scuba: Hold your breath

Climbing gear: Safety ropes are for sissies

 

There's a local cache on an island, so most people get to it by boat. Or you can just wade a few hundred yards from shore, because the water is never more than 3-4 ft deep between the island and the shore. It's rated 4.5.

 

Another local cache is rated 5 terrain because the owner claims you need a ladder. I just parked my truck under the cache and grabbed it. I don't consider my truck to be "special equipment", and would have rated this cache at about 2.5 stars.

Special equipment tends to be used to retrieve caches safely. Scuba gear can make you stay underwater a whole lot longer and feel free to call me a sissy, but I prefer safety ropes when climbing. As for the cache that called for a ladder: you might have a truck handy, but there are also cachers who come by foot or bike. They can't park the truck like you did and a lot of the time ground zero is out of bounds for any car - to protect the environment. Cache pages need to cater to all cachers including the ones without a truck.

[+nthacker66]

SO this is yet another example of why this rating system in incomplete. Its subjectivity is too broad and leaves open too much debate. I dare not sugggest again expanding the rating system to open up more "stars" for special equipment/skills caches. Or dare not again suggest these kind of caches get special icons (eg. kayal caches, climbing caches) - i.e. rewardaing cachers who go after thse types of caches as well as allow the rating system to be more refined (e.g. a rating system for what type of "paddle" caches - whitwater, flatwater, sea, etc. - 1, 2, 3, 4 star and so on).

[+JL_HSTRE]

In Florida, wading/swimming isn't really something to consider thanks to the gators.

 

There's a local one on the Intracoastal Waterway. The CO placed it from a boat, but it seems like only 2 of 10 Finders have actually gone via watercraft rather than the hard bushwack. It's about 2 miles from the nearest kayak access point.

http://coord.info/GC2WPJK

 

I have a cache I'm waiting to drop off sometime soon that I will be delivering via kayak. But where I'm beaching is a trail that intersects with a trail paralleling the river so it will only be rated probably T3 since you can walk to it (though depending on the time of year you cross a ditch that might be dry or knee-deep).

 

I'd say when in doubt rate it T5 if you placed it via kayak and expect people to access it via kayak. But try to be aware if a trail is nearby and overland access is likely. If you notice early finders repeatedly coming overland instead of via a boat then possibly downgrade the Terrain but keep the Boat attribute.

[+nthacker66]

Subsequently, I do agree that if a cache, as it stands right now, requires special equipment, it should automatically get a 5-terra. When I place a paddle cache, i will give it a 5 terra, and use the difficulty to adjust whether it is "hard" to get to (i.e. paddling upstream, paddling into rapids, requiring agility to paddle back washes, need to hike from kayak, etc.)

[+Mike & Jess]

Please put a "Boat Required" attribute on the cache so it will come up on people's PQs. Then rate the terrain from 1 to 5 based on how difficult it is for people to reach Ground Zero, so people have additional helpful information.

^^ This right here I agree with 100%

I have an island cache that is 300yrds from shore. 5 terrain rating as you are either going to have to be in decent shape or have a boat. Technically if you have a boat, the cache is almost obtainable by a person in a wheel chair, so is it really a 5 terrain of a a wheelchair accessible cache is a 1 terrain?

 

Subsequently, I do agree that if a cache, as it stands right now, requires special equipment, it should automatically get a 5-terra. When I place a paddle cache, i will give it a 5 terra, and use the difficulty to adjust whether it is "hard" to get to (i.e. paddling upstream, paddling into rapids, requiring agility to paddle back washes, need to hike from kayak, etc.)

It doesn't really work that way from what I got about my toughest caches series threads.

Terrain is a guaranteed 5, but if they can find the cache in one visit, I'm told it's not a 5 difficulty. The fact that the cachers need to pre-plan the trip, spend a night outdoors, and trek through whatever mother nature throws at them, can't make the cache any higher of a rating then my Norway Island cache, described in my reply to Planet.

 

I think the rating system or rate suggestions should be adjusted. If I'm understanding correctly, the attributes came out after the whole rating system, and does compensate or give better information then the original rating system. My Norway Island cache and the up and coming Toughest caches series are not even in the same play level, but both will be 5 terrain.

[+CanadianRockies]

Subsequently, I do agree that if a cache, as it stands right now, requires special equipment, it should automatically get a 5-terra. When I place a paddle cache, i will give it a 5 terra, and use the difficulty to adjust whether it is "hard" to get to (i.e. paddling upstream, paddling into rapids, requiring agility to paddle back washes, need to hike from kayak, etc.)

I don't agree with it, but I understand why one might rate a kayak cache as a 5-star terrain (because that's how many others have handled this situation). But I don't understand why you would use the difficulty rating to indicate how hard it is to reach Ground Zero. That likely would confuse many potential seekers.

 

Why not simply use the difficulty rating for its intended purpose of indicating how hard it is to find the cache once you arrive at Ground Zero? You can use the terrain rating for its purpose of indicating how hard it is to reach Ground Zero. You can use the "Boat" attribute to alert people and help with PQs, providing further details in the cache description.

[+nthacker66]

Subsequently, I do agree that if a cache, as it stands right now, requires special equipment, it should automatically get a 5-terra. When I place a paddle cache, i will give it a 5 terra, and use the difficulty to adjust whether it is "hard" to get to (i.e. paddling upstream, paddling into rapids, requiring agility to paddle back washes, need to hike from kayak, etc.)

I don't agree with it, but I understand why one might rate a kayak cache as a 5-star terrain (because that's how many others have handled this situation). But I don't understand why you would use the difficulty rating to indicate how hard it is to reach Ground Zero. That likely would confuse many potential seekers.

 

Why not simply use the difficulty rating for its intended purpose of indicating how hard it is to find the cache once you arrive at Ground Zero? You can use the terrain rating for its purpose of indicating how hard it is to reach Ground Zero. You can use the "Boat" attribute to alert people and help with PQs, providing further details in the cache description.

That is my point exactly - the rating system is incomplete and just way to subjective. As I said in an earlier post, why not add a "sub rating" structure if the cache requires special equipment. For example, if the cache requires a boat, you give it a terra rating of 5 and then a sub rating system is dropped down, (1 - 5 rating on the length of paddle, difficulty of paddle, level of skill needed, etc.)

[+coupleocachers]

There was a cache near us that was a 1.5/1.5 and when looked at it. It was an island cache and it was a 1 mile paddle. We emailed the new cacher with some help and told them that a 1.5/1.5 is usually a cache that can be done almost from walking up to it. And they changed it to a 1.5/5.

 

I just don't believe a kayak cache should be a 3 terrian. If it is not accessible with out a boat and the only option to get there is a boat it should be a 5. If you can swim, wade or bushwack then a 4/4.5 terrian is better. When it says in the listing that a boat is required and only way then it should be a 5 terrian. if you can reach it from the boat then use the difficulty as a 1.5 or 1.

 

We have a cache that is up a lamppost. Some people have climbed up there, some has used a hiking stick and even some had a fire fighter help them get the cache done. Therefore it was a 5 terrian since you need some type of equipment. It is a 1 difficulty because you can see the cache from the vehicle.