Religious material in caches

[+Snoogans]

Agnostics think that there's an equal chance that god could exist or not exist. To me agnostics are more unscientific because they are essentially saying that something is 50/50 when they see no evidence for it.

Equal chance? 50/50? Where did you get that?

Well agnostics say that they can't know whether god exists or not, which means on the spectrum of "I know god exists" and "I know god doesn't exist", they're right in the middle.

In other words, they are undecided....

 

Not exactly correct from my point of view....

 

Someone very close to me claims to be Agnostic, but their fear of religion would place them closer to Atheist than Agnostic. This person is a skeptical Agnostic at best.

 

Almost anyone who has taken the time to consider their Agnostic philosophy wouldn't boil it down to a chance.

 

This is the way I boil it down for myself:

 

I am devoutly Agnostic. A spiritual fence sitter. I refuse to define the undefinable for myself and more importantly, I refuse to define it for others. I believe in/have faith in Something and that's enough for me.

 

Living in the Bible Belt as I do the "Church People" knock on my door often. I usually answer the door naked, (sorry for the mind fork for those that know me) but sometimes they catch me working in my yard. At those times I politely tell them I'm Agnostic. Eight times out of ten they continue with "So you don't believe in God." After a stupid supposition like that, I sometimes roll my eyes back in my head and then I fall to my knees and start speaking in tongues then start rolling around tearing at my clothes. You'd be suprised how fast someone in heels can run. I'm getting too old to pull that off with a straight face anymore though...

 

Hence:

 

[+Firespinner]

 

 

Living in the Bible Belt as I do the "Church People" knock on my door often. I usually answer the door naked, (sorry for the mind fork for those that know me) but sometimes they catch me working in my yard. At those times I politely tell them I'm Agnostic. Eight times out of ten they continue with "So you don't believe in God." After a stupid supposition like that, I sometimes roll my eyes back in my head and then I fall to my knees and start speaking in tongues then start rolling around tearing at my clothes. You'd be suprised how fast someone in heels can run. I'm getting too old to pull that off with a straight face anymore though...

 

 

That is AWESOME! I will have to try pulling that one off next time! :-) The JW's think I"m just a smart a** because I told the truth. They came knocking on my door and I told them I couldn't talk right now, I was running out to pay my taxes and buy a birthday present. That is REALLY what I was doing....I even had my keys in hand and was heading for the door when they knocked. It wasn't until later when I remembered how anti-birthday/celebration and anti-govt/taxes they were. lol.

[+KBI]

Equal chance? 50/50? Where did you get that?

Well agnostics say that they can't know whether god exists or not, which means on the spectrum of "I know god exists" and "I know god doesn't exist", they're right in the middle.

Allowing for the possible truth of either of two competing explanations is not the same as giving both of them equal likelihood. I, for example, allow for the existence of a deity – but I see the likelihood of the existence of a deity as barely above zero, not 50%.

 

Little Johnny had been warned not to swing his baseball bat in the house. Shortly afterward his Dad, while in the kitchen, heard an awful crashing sound coming from the living room. Seconds later he dashed in to find Johnny holding his bat and standing next to the shattered remains of a formerly valuable lamp lying all over the floor.

 

Dad’s assumption: Johnny swung his bat despite Dad’s warning and, accident or not, smashed the lamp.

 

But now let’s hear Johnny’s story: "Dad! It wasn’t ME! I was just standing here. The bat was on the other side of the room. Then, a big purple winged dragon with orange polka-dots appeared out of nowhere, picked up the lamp, and smashed it on the floor. Then he picked up the bat and put it in my hands. He disappeared right before you came into the room! It was AWESOME!!!"

 

Discuss:

• Which version do you think Dad tends to believe?
  
• Which version do you think Johnny wants his dad to believe?
  
• Can Dad DISPROVE the existence of the dragon, much less Johnny’s account of the dragon’s behavior?
  
• Can Dad logically, therefore, put a full 100% faith, with ZERO doubt, into his preferred version of events?
  
• If not – and this is the crucial question here – does that mean we can correctly and accurately describe Dad’s rational and logical non-certain belief system, “dragon” versus “bad Johnny,” as 50/50?
  

[+TrailGators]

Equal chance? 50/50? Where did you get that?

Well agnostics say that they can't know whether god exists or not, which means on the spectrum of "I know god exists" and "I know god doesn't exist", they're right in the middle.

Allowing for the possible truth of either of two competing explanations is not the same as giving both of them equal likelihood. I, for example, allow for the existence of a deity – but I see the likelihood of the existence of a deity as barely above zero, not 50%.

 

Little Johnny had been warned not to swing his baseball bat in the house. Shortly afterward his Dad, while in the kitchen, heard an awful crashing sound coming from the living room. Seconds later he dashed in to find Johnny holding his bat and standing next to the shattered remains of a formerly valuable lamp lying all over the floor.

 

Dad's assumption: Johnny swung his bat despite Dad's warning and, accident or not, smashed the lamp.

 

But now let's hear Johnny's story: "Dad! It wasn't ME! I was just standing here. The bat was on the other side of the room. Then, a big purple winged dragon with orange polka-dots appeared out of nowhere, picked up the lamp, and smashed it on the floor. Then he picked up the bat and put it in my hands. He disappeared right before you came into the room! It was AWESOME!!!"

 

Discuss:

• Which version do you think Dad tends to believe?
  
• Which version do you think Johnny wants his dad to believe?
  
• Can Dad DISPROVE the existence of the dragon, much less Johnny's account of the dragon's behavior?
  
• Can Dad logically, therefore, put a full 100% faith, with ZERO doubt, into his preferred version of events?
  
• If not – and this is the crucial question here – does that mean we can correctly and accurately describe Dad's rational and logical non-certain belief system, "dragon" versus "bad Johnny," as 50/50?
  

I had that same purple winged dragon visit me a few times when I was a kid!

 

I don't think your analogy holds because one side clearly a fabrication. If you can prove the existence of our vast and infinitely complex universe as being a random act, then I might believe the fabrication argument. Of course, you'll need the greatest scientists on your side to do that. By the way, none of them can help you. At least this discussion has helped me to understand that the agnostics don't try to claim this. It's only the extremists (religious and non-religious) that seem to have a high confidence in what they can't prove. I think putting these tracts in caches is a bit on the extreme side, but so is ripping those people that do it to shreds.

Edited August 11, 2008 by TrailGators

[Roadtorque]

Equal chance? 50/50? Where did you get that?

Well agnostics say that they can't know whether god exists or not, which means on the spectrum of "I know god exists" and "I know god doesn't exist", they're right in the middle.

Allowing for the possible truth of either of two competing explanations is not the same as giving both of them equal likelihood. I, for example, allow for the existence of a deity – but I see the likelihood of the existence of a deity as barely above zero, not 50%.

 

Little Johnny had been warned not to swing his baseball bat in the house. Shortly afterward his Dad, while in the kitchen, heard an awful crashing sound coming from the living room. Seconds later he dashed in to find Johnny holding his bat and standing next to the shattered remains of a formerly valuable lamp lying all over the floor.

 

Dad's assumption: Johnny swung his bat despite Dad's warning and, accident or not, smashed the lamp.

 

But now let's hear Johnny's story: "Dad! It wasn't ME! I was just standing here. The bat was on the other side of the room. Then, a big purple winged dragon with orange polka-dots appeared out of nowhere, picked up the lamp, and smashed it on the floor. Then he picked up the bat and put it in my hands. He disappeared right before you came into the room! It was AWESOME!!!"

 

Discuss:

• Which version do you think Dad tends to believe?
  
• Which version do you think Johnny wants his dad to believe?
  
• Can Dad DISPROVE the existence of the dragon, much less Johnny's account of the dragon's behavior?
  
• Can Dad logically, therefore, put a full 100% faith, with ZERO doubt, into his preferred version of events?
  
• If not – and this is the crucial question here – does that mean we can correctly and accurately describe Dad's rational and logical non-certain belief system, "dragon" versus "bad Johnny," as 50/50?
  

I had that same purple winged dragon visit me a few times when I was a kid!

 

I don't think your analogy holds because one side clearly a fabrication. If you can prove the existence of our vast and infinitely complex universe as being a random act, then I might believe the fabrication argument. Of course, you'll need the greatest scientists on your side to do that. By the way, none of them can help you. At least this discussion has helped me to understand that the agnostics don't try to claim this. It's only the extremists (religious and non-religious) that seem to have a high confidence in what they can't prove. I think putting these tracts in caches is a bit on the extreme side, but so is ripping those people that do it to shreds.

good luck. After all those who try to disprove a God have only their word to stand on. Everything in the universe is a testimony that there is a Supreme Being. I dont mind people putting religious items in caches. In fact I love to run across them and read them. Cant hurt and I find it interesting to educate myself about what others apparently feel strongly enough about that they want to share. The sad thing is forum topics like this that turn friends against friends but I am very surprised and happy to see how professional people are handling this topic. I only have joined two forums (this being one) because most I run across are full of two-faced people, that attacks any other member who doesnt see eye to eye with them and you cant learn anything from those.

[+TrailGators]

I dont mind people putting religious items in caches. In fact I love to run across them and read them. Cant hurt and I find it interesting to educate myself about what others apparently feel strongly enough about that they want to share.

For some reason some people are really threatened. I enjoy viewing the world through others' eyes. Just because someone says something or writes something doesn't mean you have to believe it. Although the media just a great job at brainwashing millions of people everyday.

[+Snow Birds]

"The sad thing is forum topics like this that turn friends against friends"

 

Those are narrow-minded people! Just because we might disagree doesn't necessarily mean we can't drink together! In the words of that kid on the racing commercial..."I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man!"

 

My best friend is a devout christian, probably more so than most posters here, IMHO. We talk a lot about religion and/or the lack of it. Now, after 14 years, he is still a devout christian and I am still a devout atheist. We are still best friends, we work together in harmony, and we go drinking together! Okay...he drinks Coke, but he still has a great time! Me? I ALWAYS have a designated driver!

 

And I still maintain that although religious junk in a cache is just as much junk as all the other stuff in there, like all the other junk, I ignore it. It's no better than all the stupid business cards! As long as I can find the log, I'm good to go. I'm sure there are caches with a religious theme. If I ever find one, I won't worry about being struck by lightning if I push it all aside to find the log. I would have the common courtesy to put it all back for the next person who might like it.

 

I don't like kids...but I don't get offended by seeing toys! I have a high ignore factor.

 

I just read about a person who wouldn't complete a cache because the log is inside a...uh...10 inch male anatomy replication. (LOL maybe changing the track might help)

[+Snow Birds]

Ack! Duplicated. It said it didn't go...but it did anyway!

Edited August 11, 2008 by Snow Birds

[+Renegade Knight]

...Discuss:

• Which version do you think Dad tends to believe?
  
• Which version do you think Johnny wants his dad to believe?
  
• Can Dad DISPROVE the existence of the dragon, much less Johnny’s account of the dragon’s behavior?
  
• Can Dad logically, therefore, put a full 100% faith, with ZERO doubt, into his preferred version of events?
  
• If not – and this is the crucial question here – does that mean we can correctly and accurately describe Dad’s rational and logical non-certain belief system, “dragon” versus “bad Johnny,” as 50/50?
  

 

Dad believes Johnny swung the bat.

Johnny just want's to not be in trouble. Any version that gets him out of trouble works.

Can dad disprove the dragon? No, but he can look for lamp shards in the bat, scatter consistance with a bat swing or being dropped by something (which would tend to disprove the swing).

Dad can hit 95% knowing Johnny, looking at the evidence. Assuming Johnny has a pattern of behavior. This isn't just an isolated event.

 

50/50? Not for Dad and Johnny, but then you were trying to imply something else and that something else is either 100% or 0% and nothing in between. Anything other than that is confusion in the mind of the person doing the thinking skewing things themselves.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

You would attempt to punish the cache owner for the papers you find in his cache - even if they were placed there by someone else? You have already been to the cache, got your smiley and presumably would not be returning. This is a perfect example of the intolerance that everyone has been talking about in this post...What possible harm has occured to you to cause you to file the "needs archived"?

 

If you carefully read what they wrote it says "I would email the owner about it. IF THEY SAY THE CACHE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THOSE IN IT, THEN SUMBIT A NEEDS ARCHIVED LOG. " (for the record....not yelling, just put it in all caps to make it stand out). The purpose of that woudl be to find out if the cache is supposed to be pushing an agenda. ...

 

Trade items are not an agenda. Any owners that believes a cache should be traded as the good finders in the world see fit would say "yes the cache is supposed to have those in it". What they wouldn't go on to say is "right up until someone else trades them out for something else."

 

The Squirrel was a bit more right than the blb.

[+Renegade Knight]

...i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?...

 

What kind of conclusion is it to think that the person who wrote that log as they felt called to do did it out of anything other than love for their fellow man? What kind of presumption does it take to see it as an indictment against all who believe exactly as they should?

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

...i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?...

 

What kind of conclusion is it to think that the person who wrote that log as they felt called to do did it out of anything other than love for their fellow man? What kind of presumption does it take to see it as an indictment against all who believe exactly as they should?

 

There is no rational reason to draw a conclusion about what the person who left the message/tract intended other than the contents of the writing and even then there is no reason to believe that even the most vile message was directed at you personally because you found it. This kind of flawed thinking combined with the power to directly restrict or punish the writer leads to despotism and dictatorship. This thread has never really been about the subject of the writing but rather whether anyone should be allowed to censor the free speech activity of another.

[+Guinness70]

-//- I CITO them.

 

Especially if they are cluttering up a micro. These tracts are pushing a social agenda and unless I am very mistaken, social agendas are frowned upon.

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Guinness70

[Mushtang]

-//- I CITO them.

 

Especially if they are cluttering up a micro. These tracts are pushing a social agenda and unless I am very mistaken, social agendas are frowned upon.

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

This applies to caches only, not to trade items or travel bugs.

[+ReadyOrNot]

-//- I CITO them.

 

Especially if they are cluttering up a micro. These tracts are pushing a social agenda and unless I am very mistaken, social agendas are frowned upon.

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

This applies to caches only, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

If it applied to trade items as well, there would be no trade items to trade

[CoyoteRed]

How many religious tracts, sofa ads, pine cones (in a cache in a pine forest), or random business cards are seriously considered trade items?

 

Also, it's a good thing our legal system doesn't work off 100% certainty otherwise the only people in prison would be those who confess and their guards.

Edited August 12, 2008 by CoyoteRed

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

How many religious tracts, sofa ads, pine cones (in a cache in a pine forest), or random business cards are seriously considered trade items?

That's what I love about threads like this... Much ado about nothing!

 

I've found a few thousand caches in 29 states and think that I may have found religious tracts in maybe 6 of them, ads in only a couple more, and business cards in perhaps 30.

 

YMMV, but this isn't exactly overwhelming the game!

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

[Mushtang]

How many religious tracts, sofa ads, pine cones (in a cache in a pine forest), or random business cards are seriously considered trade items?

I'd guess they were all put into caches by someone under the impression that someone else would seriously want to find it. No doubt they had bad judgment, or at the very least they wanted to leave something and that's the best they could come up with.

 

I can imagine someone digging through their purse or wallet looking for something that another person would want, and they flip past several bills and decide to leave the McCoupon instead. I'd guess more people would have enjoyed a $1 bill than a $2 off coupon for a fast food meal.

 

Incidentally, a sometimes eccentric person I cache with on occasion has a habit of leaving $2 bills in caches as trade items, and most of the time he doesn't take anything in return. He's been known to stop at a bank and request $100 worth of $2 bills just to make sure he's got a large supply to leave. I doubt there will ever be a thread complaining about those.

 

That's what I love about threads like this... Much ado about nothing!

Isn't that true about most threads?

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

There could have been tracts in every cache I've found in the past 4 years and I wouldn't know it. I'm somehow able to find the log book, sign it, and put it back without even being exposed to the crazy ramblings on any of the printed materials left for trade. They don't interest me, and I can easily ignore them. If everyone could do that this thread wouldn't even exist. Heh.

 

Before I stopped trading swag I did pull quite a few tracts out of caches and read a little of what was on them, and I was able to ignore those as well.

[+TrailGators]

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

It's only happened to me a couple of times but I seldom dig through all the stuff. I think the thread ended up being about philosophical differences between cachers. Some sections were interesting to me.

[+KBI]

I had that same purple winged dragon visit me a few times when I was a kid!

 

I don't think your analogy holds because one side clearly a fabrication. If you can prove the existence of our vast and infinitely complex universe as being a random act, then I might believe the fabrication argument.

good luck. After all those who try to disprove a God have only their word to stand on. Everything in the universe is a testimony that there is a Supreme Being.

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

[+TrailGators]

I had that same purple winged dragon visit me a few times when I was a kid!

 

I don't think your analogy holds because one side clearly a fabrication. If you can prove the existence of our vast and infinitely complex universe as being a random act, then I might believe the fabrication argument.

good luck. After all those who try to disprove a God have only their word to stand on. Everything in the universe is a testimony that there is a Supreme Being.

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

I responded to that type of thought process with this post:

Remember, it's called "faith" for a reason. Otherwise, you won't need "faith" to believe in something, you'd have proof.

You also need faith to not believe in something when you can't prove it doesn't exist. To me it's easier to have faith that something vastly greater than us exists, when you finally notice the incredible artistry of our universe. I have a much harder time not believing.

Edited August 12, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Castle Mischief]

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

This applies to caches only, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

Not that I disagree exactly, but at some point doesn't this become absurd? I mean at some point don't the contents of the cache, become the cache?

 

Obviously I can't name a cache "Get Right With The Lord- A Micro" or "Spend All Your Money On Nike Brand Shoes Earthcache". And I couldn't get listed if my cache page had the Ten Commandments printed on it.

 

But if I place a ammo box in the woods all fill it up with fliers asking people to "Vote For Mr. X" and top it off with buttons, car magnets, posters, and bumper stickers for that same canidate would I not also be placing a cache with an agenda?

[+dctalk007]

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

This applies to caches only, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

Not that I disagree exactly, but at some point doesn't this become absurd? I mean at some point don't the contents of the cache, become the cache?

 

Obviously I can't name a cache "Get Right With The Lord- A Micro" or "Spend All Your Money On Nike Brand Shoes Earthcache". And I couldn't get listed if my cache page had the Ten Commandments printed on it.

 

But if I place a ammo box in the woods all fill it up with fliers asking people to "Vote For Mr. X" and top it off with buttons, car magnets, posters, and bumper stickers for that same canidate would I not also be placing a cache with an agenda?

Being a cacher it is sometimes interesting to see different things in a cache but i think you can make any kind of cache commercial. I have a Transformers TB Hotel. That could considered commercial. Look at the stargate series that seems to be commerecial. If i saw some political ads in a cache then i would just ignore them.

[+KBI]

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

I responded to that type of thought process with this post:

Remember, it's called "faith" for a reason. Otherwise, you won't need "faith" to believe in something, you'd have proof.

You also need faith to not believe in something when you can't prove it doesn't exist. To me it's easier to have faith that something vastly greater than us exists, when you finally notice the incredible artistry of our universe. I have a much harder time not believing.

... and I would respond to your raising of the concept of being unable to prove something doesn't exist by suggesting you Google a thing called "Russell's Teapot."

 

I say I would respond that way, but I won't. I think we've all been lucky so far that this thread hasn't yet been locked down for wandering off topic. I am just as guilty as you and many others.

 

This thread appears to be about religious tracts in caches, not religion itself. If anyone wants to debate religion in general I would love to continue the discussion, but I suggest we take it to the Off Topic forum. If anyone wants to start a new thread in Off Topic (or revive one of the old ones), I'll meet you there.

[+TrailGators]

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

I responded to that type of thought process with this post:

Remember, it's called "faith" for a reason. Otherwise, you won't need "faith" to believe in something, you'd have proof.

You also need faith to not believe in something when you can't prove it doesn't exist. To me it's easier to have faith that something vastly greater than us exists, when you finally notice the incredible artistry of our universe. I have a much harder time not believing.

... and I would respond to your raising of the concept of being unable to prove something doesn't exist by suggesting you Google a thing called "Russell's Teapot."

 

I say I would respond that way, but I won't. I think we've all been lucky so far that this thread hasn't yet been locked down for wandering off topic. I am just as guilty as you and many others.

 

This thread appears to be about religious tracts in caches, not religion itself. If anyone wants to debate religion in general I would love to continue the discussion, but I suggest we take it to the Off Topic forum. If anyone wants to start a new thread in Off Topic (or revive one of the old ones), I'll meet you there.

 

The differences in cachers is why this is an issue to some. However, I can see some of this as being tangential and we should move on. Before I do, I want to point out that you missed my previous point. My point wasn't that you can't prove something. My point was that there is more evidence one way than the other. In other words, you have an "infinite" amount of "splaining" to do! Post a link if you want to continue this in the OT forums.

[+Thystle]

.

 

And no, I am not offended by the elite intellectuals who think they are descendents of monkeys and that a complex world was produced from a big random bang, but such superior thinking does make me laugh, and I'd be curious to read their tracts if they had any.

 

.

 

Both the Big Bang Theory and Evolution have been approved by the Pope. If he's not a good Christian, who is?

[+Renegade Knight]

..."The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

Excellent.

Alas, it cuts both ways though and answers nothing. It supports neither athiesm, or faith.

[+Renegade Knight]

...My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

1000 caches, 1 Tract, give or take. But I did find some caches placed by a cacher called biblethumper.

[+TrailGators]

..."The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

Excellent.

Alas, it cuts both ways though and answers nothing. It supports neither athiesm, or faith.

There is another saying that applys: "An expert is someone that knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

[+hairball45]

Just a few over 800 caches and no tracts yet. I have seen a few soggy business cards and various unidentifiable junk, but no tracts. I have seen a couple of angel pins, cross pins and the like but that's just swag to me, no problem. Trade for 'em if you want to, don't if you don't. No, I didn't throw away the soggy business cards, but I didn't take them either. Same would go for the never seen tracts if I found them. Well maybe Chick tracts if I saw one. They're pretty amusing and offensive even to most of the people of faith that I know. Kinda over the top.

hairball

[+Renegade Knight]

...There is another saying that applys: "An expert is someone that knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

This is the version a contractor once told me.

 

Architects start out knowing a little about a lot and continue to learn less and less about more and more until they know nothing about everthing.

 

Engineers start out knowing a lot about a little and learn more and more about less and less until they know everthing about nothing.

 

Contractors start out knowing everthing about everthing but due to their continued association with Architects and Engineers end up knowing nothing about anything.

[+Thystle]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

Several times; on almost every occasion that I have found RTiC, they have been wet and moldy, and really not worth the effort to dry out. There have been CD's, pamphlets for the JW's and several evangelical types of papers, but nothing interesting enough for me to actually pick up and read. I would be curious to find pamphlets from non-xtian religions, but haven't run across any of those. And one geocoin.

 

Despite the fact there are not supposed to be caches that promote agendas, there are several. GC8B0E (Wow! Look at that! Another one!) could be construed as promoting Catholicism since one has to do the Stations of the Cross to solve it. Or GC194B (Wow! Look at that!). Was I offended....well... maybe a little. But like Elanor Roosevelt (and several forum posts) have said, "No one can make you feel inferior (or offended) without your consent".

 

Instead of being offended or destructive and CITOing such things, perhaps there is an alternative- besides the FSM- that we could agree upon for putting in caches? Personally I like the idea of putting a little CITO kit in the cache to replace whatever one finds offensive- and its not just pamphlets in caches- there have been occasions that I have found gum, food and once, a swiss army knife- in caches. Offensive? No. But needed to be replaced by something more appropriate? Definitely.

 

This thread still could be used in a constructive way to find a solution or common ground for dealing with religious pamphlets in caches. Clearly, though they are not meant to be offensive, though there are those who are offended by them. And I find the thought of trashing something that isn't moldy and wet a waste of time. Lets stop rolling our eyes at each other and come up with something we all could do.

 

-My two coppers,

 

-Thystle

[4wheelin_fool]

I could write "On the seventh day Atlas Shrugged" in every cache, but I really dont think Anyone would really appreciate it.

[WashoeZephyr]

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

It's only happened to me a couple of times but I seldom dig through all the stuff. I think the thread ended up being about philosophical differences between cachers. Some sections were interesting to me.

Come to Reno, they are in probably 50-60% of all local caches. Left mostly by one cacher in particular. I know this cacher and he is a very nice person, however quit leaving papers in a cache! To me, this isn't even about religion, I am ok with the sig coins. Unless it is the log/log book or another log for someone else to take as a trade item. papers just clutter up the cache, especially when the cache gets damp, then it becomes a goopy mess. Even the business type cards that some cachers leave (as a sig item). Is it that hard to sign the log book? I don't know anybody that actually takes the sig business cards, why clutter up a cache with them?

[+tozainamboku]

my thoughts exactly : no commercial advertising, no religious agenda, no political agenda, politicly correct or otherwise.

This applies to caches only, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

Not that I disagree exactly, but at some point doesn't this become absurd? I mean at some point don't the contents of the cache, become the cache?

 

Obviously I can't name a cache "Get Right With The Lord- A Micro" or "Spend All Your Money On Nike Brand Shoes Earthcache". And I couldn't get listed if my cache page had the Ten Commandments printed on it.

 

But if I place a ammo box in the woods all fill it up with fliers asking people to "Vote For Mr. X" and top it off with buttons, car magnets, posters, and bumper stickers for that same canidate would I not also be placing a cache with an agenda?

At a simple level the solicitation guideline applies to the cache page. If you mention nothing about your agenda on the cache page and a person finds your cache full of propaganda it's not likely that geocaching.com will do anything. The solicitation guideline refer to the posting of a cache to promote religious, political, charitable or social agendas. The commercial guideline mentions both the geocache listing and the geocache itself. Here the cache page may give no indication of being commercial but finders will get to the location and see that the cache was placed by the business to solicit business. Still this may not be archived if the cacher owner can reasonably assure the reviewer that no purchase or interaction with employees of the business is needed to find the cache (some grandfathered caches do require interaction with a employee).

 

Cache contents guideline are limited to no explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material. The issue here is what land managers, law enforcement, and general public would think if these items were to be found in a cache. In addition the guideline suggests that food in a cache is a bad idea - animals can smell the food and have been know to even get an ammo can opened to get the food. (Not to mention I've found a few caches full of maggots or other insects attracted by food). There is no mention of religious tracts or other agenda items.

 

... and I would respond to your raising of the concept of being unable to prove something doesn't exist by suggesting you Google a thing called "Russell's Teapot."

Rather than Russell's Teapot, I prefer Russell's Geocache. I could post the coordinates for a geocache on the site. There is nothing there, but the reviewer and everyone else doesn't know that. People will look for the caches. Some may post DNFs. After many DNFs some may post a Need Maintenance or Need Archive log. I would post a maintenance note each time saying I've checked and the cache is still there. Since my word is the "Gospel Truth", people will keep looking for my cache. Eventually someone from Germany will log 100 finds in the area all in one day and of course they will log a find on my cache. I know their log is bogus, but I don't delete it. because there is now proof the cache is there - someone found it.

 

Both the Big Bang Theory and Evolution have been approved by the Pope. If he's not a good Christian, who is?

I read about the Pope in a Chick Tract that I found in a geocache. I won't repeat here what that tract said about the Pope.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Rather than Russell's Teapot, I prefer Russell's Geocache. I could post the coordinates for a geocache on the site. There is nothing there, but the reviewer and everyone else doesn't know that. People will look for the caches. Some may post DNFs. After many DNFs some may post a Need Maintenance or Need Archive log. I would post a maintenance note each time saying I've checked and the cache is still there. Since my word is the "Gospel Truth", people will keep looking for my cache. Eventually someone from Germany will log 100 finds in the area all in one day and of course they will log a find on my cache. I know their log is bogus, but I don't delete it. because there is now proof the cache is there - someone found it. ...

 

Ironicly with the teapot since Russell can't check on it himself there is a probability, however small, that it's there. That's because we are dealing with teapots made of materials that have been observed and which, however unlikely can combine to form a perfect teapot the same way that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards for long enough will write shakeaspear. Your cache has higher odds of existing than the teapot.

[Mushtang]

I read about the Pope in a Chick Tract that I found in a geocache. I won't repeat here what that tract said about the Pope.

Did it say something about the Pope, and the woods???

 

(The way I heard it, it was a bear anyway.)

Edited August 12, 2008 by Mushtang

[+Zop]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

[+TrailGators]

I guess when a tiny minority place tracts in caches it open's the door to people's religions being attacked in these forums:

 

I read about the Pope in a Chick Tract that I found in a geocache. I won't repeat here what that tract said about the Pope.

Did it say something about the Pope, and the woods??? (The way I heard it, it was a bear anyway.)

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour. I CITO them all.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

...Rather than Russell's Teapot, I prefer Russell's Geocache. I could post the coordinates for a geocache on the site. There is nothing there, but the reviewer and everyone else doesn't know that. People will look for the caches. Some may post DNFs. After many DNFs some may post a Need Maintenance or Need Archive log. I would post a maintenance note each time saying I've checked and the cache is still there. Since my word is the "Gospel Truth", people will keep looking for my cache. Eventually someone from Germany will log 100 finds in the area all in one day and of course they will log a find on my cache. I know their log is bogus, but I don't delete it. because there is now proof the cache is there - someone found it. ...

 

Interestingly, you have hit upon the secret of my Psycho Urban Caches #2 through #14, and also my Psycho Backcountry Cache #3. These caches do not exist, and they never have existed, but everyone believes that they exist, and the cache listing pages are quite convincing, and thus finding them has even become a big fad among cachers up and down the East Coast, and so most of them visit GZ for each of these caches and eventually claim a find. The hoax has, by now, grown so massive that no one would believe me if I were to announce publicly that these caches do not exist, because each has been logged by some of the most famous cachers on the East Coast and by a multitude of lesser-known cachers as well. The reality, however, is that these are all perfect instantiations of Russel's Geocache.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+ReadyOrNot]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

 

Are you not capable of showing respect?

[Mushtang]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

 

Are you not capable of showing respect?

Hey, he didn't flatten the pennies, someone else did.

[+flask]

 

I think its rude to call someone rude when they are trying to help you.

 

it is rude to assume you know what's best for other people and it is rude to provide "help" that is neither requested nor welcome.

 

people insisting that religious proselytizing is really doing people a favor are rude on an extreme level. it would be rude to follow people around at the grocery store attempting to "assist" people in making better nutritional choices. it would be rude to go to people's homes and give unsolicited advice on the conduct of their marital relationships. it would be rude to offer unwanted fashion advice.

 

what makes these spiritual busybodies think that somehow their extreme discourtesy may be excused on the grounds that they know better the intimate workings of another person's soul?

 

it is patronizing and offensive to attempt to defend this behavior on the grounds that you are somehow spiritually superior and that you are somehow helping us.

 

Based on this I'm wondering if you turn off your TV when advertisments come on? Companies selling their product thinking it can better our lives how rude As far as proselytizing to people who dont "want it" sometimes you dont know you want it until someone is kind enough to bring it to your attention. Seems like people fear what they are uneducated about

 

gosh, that's a spiffy response, but if you'd read anything i said, you'd know that i am neither afraid of faith nor undereducated on it.

 

unwanted spiritual advice is rude.

 

unwanted spiritual advice from people who think they know better than you doubly so.

 

people who think this unpleasant behavior is somehow motivated by love are off the charts in rudeness and delusion.

[+TrailGators]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

 

Are you not capable of showing respect?

Hey, he didn't flatten the pennies, someone else did.

Just because some rare person leaves a penny in a cache doesn't mean people can start slamming mine and many others' beliefs. I've never left something like that in a cache and I never will. So why should I and others be attacked? Where are the defenders now?

[+flask]

...i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?...

 

What kind of conclusion is it to think that the person who wrote that log as they felt called to do did it out of anything other than love for their fellow man? What kind of presumption does it take to see it as an indictment against all who believe exactly as they should?

 

There is no rational reason to draw a conclusion about what the person who left the message/tract intended other than the contents of the writing and even then there is no reason to believe that even the most vile message was directed at you personally because you found it. This kind of flawed thinking combined with the power to directly restrict or punish the writer leads to despotism and dictatorship. This thread has never really been about the subject of the writing but rather whether anyone should be allowed to censor the free speech activity of another.

 

there's nothing wrong with my thinking.

 

that cacher from malone made a blanket statement clearly intended for EVERYONE, and last time i checked, i was part of that group. his repeated statement of "love" that anyone who comes to jesus will have their "sorrows taken away" "plain and simple" (his words) and "no need for medication" and that pain in your life is a direct result of "sin in your soul" was just way off base.

 

there's no way to reconcile that claptrap with anything resembling love.

 

i have in no place advocated censorship and i resent being told that i do. the question was whether or not it is rude to leave these things in caches, not whether or not there ought to be a rule against it. sometimes the best way to change rude behaviors is by education and discussion.

 

a person suffering from the delusion that they are doing all of us a service by this rudeness may not have seriously considered the damaging nature of the message that comes with it. they may be immersed in a culture in which this sort of intolerance is seen as normal, and they need to have their assumptions shaken up and challenged robustly.

 

cultural arrogance leads to someone getting squashed. trouble is the people doing the squashing have a tendency to believe they're elevating.

 

when i sit down to a full-scale family dinner, i sit down at table with the convinced atheists, lapsed lutherans, devout catholics, casual agnostics and pagan priestesses of my extended family. i wouldn't dream of praying for them to be other than they are. they are all of them people of integrity, generous and good. it would be rude of them to tell me how to place my faith, and it would be rude of me to dishonor them similarly.

[+flask]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

 

Are you not capable of showing respect?

Hey, he didn't flatten the pennies, someone else did.

Just because some rare person leaves a penny in a cache doesn't mean people can start slamming mine and many others' beliefs. I've never left something like that in a cache and I never will. So why should I and others be attacked? Where are the defenders now?

 

would it be better if i told you that i adore that dude jesus?

 

he was (and is, to my way of thinking) a hip, happening dude. how is that an attack?

 

leaving flyers is the worst kind of spiritual hit-and run, flinging damnation and brimstone in a wide, wide circle. not liking them is not an attack on faith.

 

if you would like to talk with me abut your faith or lack of it, i will happily make an appointment with you to discuss it personally.

 

i was at a cache this spring (or in a parking lot very near it) and a young man came to ask me for directions. on his way out he handed me a tract and then skedaddled quickly before i could even respond. i doubt he even noticed that when he approached me, he was disturbing my morning prayer. i would have been happy to share it with him, but instead i got handed a little bit of rudeness for my trouble.

 

calling jesus a "dude" just doesn't cut it as an attack, i don't think.

[+TrailGators]

 

My experience makes me wonder... how many of the folks in this debate have ever actually found religious tracts in caches?

 

I see them all the time, plastic 10 commandments coins, flattened pennies with the same or even prayers.

 

But the worst are those fliers damning you a sinner if you don't accept some dude name Jesus as your saviour.

 

I CITO them all.

 

Are you not capable of showing respect?

Hey, he didn't flatten the pennies, someone else did.

Just because some rare person leaves a penny in a cache doesn't mean people can start slamming mine and many others' beliefs. I've never left something like that in a cache and I never will. So why should I and others be attacked? Where are the defenders now?

 

would it be better if i told you that i adore that dude jesus?

 

he was (and is, to my way of thinking) a hip, happening dude. how is that an attack?

 

leaving flyers is the worst kind of spiritual hit-and run, flinging damnation and brimstone in a wide, wide circle. not liking them is not an attack on faith.

 

if you would like to talk with me abut your faith or lack of it, i will happily make an appointment with you to discuss it personally.

 

i was at a cache this spring (or in a parking lot very near it) and a young man came to ask me for directions. on his way out he handed me a tract and then skedaddled quickly before i could even respond. i doubt he even noticed that when he approached me, he was disturbing my morning prayer. i would have been happy to share it with him, but instead i got handed a little bit of rudeness for my trouble.

 

calling jesus a "dude" just doesn't cut it as an attack, i don't think.

 

Saying "some dude name Jesus" lowers his status and is disrespectful to those that hold Him in the highest regard. Most of us would never put any "stuff" in caches and don't deserve to be dissed.

 

As far as this subject, there will always be somebody that puts that "stuff" in caches. So deal with it. Getting angry about something that you can't change is pointless and you will end up hurting people that aren't even involved. That is what is happening in this thread. I agree that people shouldn't force their beliefs on others. However, even the defenders would agree that nobody is forcing you to read that stuff.

Edited August 13, 2008 by TrailGators

[+traildad]

 

i have in no place advocated censorship and i resent being told that i do. the question was whether or not it is rude to leave these things in caches, not whether or not there ought to be a rule against it. sometimes the best way to change rude behaviors is by education and discussion.

 

a person suffering from the delusion that they are doing all of us a service by this rudeness may not have seriously considered the damaging nature of the message that comes with it. they may be immersed in a culture in which this sort of intolerance is seen as normal, and they need to have their assumptions shaken up and challenged robustly.

 

cultural arrogance leads to someone getting squashed. trouble is the people doing the squashing have a tendency to believe they're elevating.

It would be easy to assume that this was written about someone that was immersed in a culture of intolerance against religion.

[+KBI]

that right there is exactly WHY i speak up about it. there is absolutely no reason on this planet why they should continue to bask uneducated in their own flatulence.

people who think this unpleasant behavior is somehow motivated by love are off the charts in rudeness and delusion.

a person suffering from the delusion that they are doing all of us a service by this rudeness may not have seriously considered the damaging nature of the message that comes with it. they may be immersed in a culture in which this sort of intolerance is seen as normal, and they need to have their assumptions shaken up and challenged robustly.

 

cultural arrogance leads to someone getting squashed. trouble is the people doing the squashing have a tendency to believe they're elevating.

I like you, Flask. You are one of my Forum Heroes.

 

Remind me, though, to never ever ever wish you a happy birthday.

 

Something tells me you might take it the wrong way.

[+Green Achers]

I often trade things I think wrong with things I'd like to find in a cache. That can include old wet paper or rusty toys and they get traded for new, dry, neat-o things. This also included handouts that I didn't personally like for some reason but I trade it for something everyone likes (I hope).

 

So religious or not, take what you want but leave something better! It's your opportunity to improve the world, one little piece at a time.

 

Now for those people that get all pushed out of shape about whatever... do your best to have a happy life. Not everything in the world tastes good. Deal with it.