+meralgia Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Well, at least i feel a little better complaining a bit...lolI believe this has already been covered. Please see #8. Don't listen to the whiners, who apparently have a problem with people discussing their opinions, in, get this, a discussion forum, and accuse those holding those opinions of whining, when in fact they are the ones doing the whining.If I had a penny for everyone who posted a new topic so they could rant about micros, lame micros, hard micros, micros in playgrounds, micros up a tree, nanos and blinkies as micros, and microcomputers that aren't Macs, I could quit my job and cache all day. Quote Link to comment
Skippermark Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Not my thumb.... We have dozens upon dozens of caches hidden in a nearly 6,000 acre preserve that is brutal hiking in the summer and the deepest parts are more then 10 miles in. The caches are hidden to bring people to different unique places in the preserve and some just to challenge them. If every one of them was an ammo can it would be pretty lame... take a keychain from this one, put it in that one, take the Hotwheels car from this one and put it in that one... blah-blah-blah. I'll say. You do have dozens and dozens of hides. In my example of a lone cache in the forest being a film can, I would have rather had it be a big ammo can. But, in your case, you're making a whole series of fun caches and mixing it up to keep it exciting, so a variety is great. There are a few around here like that. One has about 25 hides, 9 miles to get them all, and the other is around 20 over 5 or 6 miles. There is a variety of types and terrain from large containers to micros hidden where you have to climb a tree. I myself have a few smaller series of caches designed to be done on bike that are mixes of smalls, regulars and micros, again to make them fun. It does get boring walking 1/4 mile from cache to cache and having them all be the same. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I do however think caches traded down to boxes of junk are, and have been a fact of life all along. It's as inevitable as death and taxes. I checked up on one of my caches yesterday. I totally restocked the cache (an ammo box cache) three months ago. Probably spent around $30 on the swag. Since then, there have been seven finds, two of which were by friends (one of them I was along with). That leaves five "unknown" finders. All that was left in the cache as of yesterday were a couple of dirty, small plastic toys, a soggy paper coupon, an almost empty can of bug spray that had leaked all over everything, and the obligatory dirty golf ball. Five finders was all that it took to almost totally ransack my cache. Please don't write that sort of behavior off as "inevitable". Its just plain wrong. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 One even had a free fish dinner. I'd be a bit concerned about how long the fish had been sitting in the cahce... Oh no... another mackerel cache rant! Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I do however think caches traded down to boxes of junk are, and have been a fact of life all along. It's as inevitable as death and taxes. I checked up on one of my caches yesterday. I totally restocked the cache (an ammo box cache) three months ago. Probably spent around $30 on the swag. Since then, there have been seven finds, two of which were by friends (one of them I was along with). That leaves five "unknown" finders. All that was left in the cache as of yesterday were a couple of dirty, small plastic toys, a soggy paper coupon, an almost empty can of bug spray that had leaked all over everything, and the obligatory dirty golf ball. Five finders was all that it took to almost totally ransack my cache. Please don't write that sort of behavior off as "inevitable". Its just plain wrong. Sorry, didn't mean to write it off!! You never like to point to specific finders, but I do remember (now that you mention it) being the 3rd or 4th finder of one of my geo-pals caches a couple of years ago, and a newbie Mom with kids had replaced 3 or 4 new dollar store items with complete garbage worth about 5 cents she probably had laying around the house for years. And she documented it in the logbook too. That was disturbing. Me, I hate to see my boxes full of junk, but I've really given up on restocking them with good swag. Or at least I haven't done it in a couple of years. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 So far, from what I've seen in my limited caching experience, it strikes me that larger caches seem to be better thought-out and more interesting locations. I have seen a few micros where the locations were great, and a micro was the only thing that would work well there. I've also seen several where the deciding factor to place them seemed to be "there's no other caches within .1 mile."That speaks for itself that a lame location or technique makes for a lame cache... don't think the size of the container has much to do with that. I would agree that grabbing a bag of free 35mm canisters from Walgreens, tearing up a sheet of paper and stuffing it somewhere is easy compared to spending the money on an ammo can or painting up a Lock-n-Lock and and buying the swag to load it with then hauling it out to find a spot. And lame caches are probably mostly due to people not willing to put much effort or creativity into their hides so would also choose the easy (cheaper) route for the container. But I don't think anyone can state that any cache is lame just due to the fact that it's a micro. Every cache needs to be judged on it's own merits. Uh oh, I almost fell back into the "Hides need a cacher rating system" discussion.... oops. But they do.... Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Uh oh, I almost fell back into the "Hides need a cacher rating system" discussion.... oops. But they do.... We heard that!!! Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Just my humble thoughts, for what they're worth. I'm going to post another question, revealing my total inexperience, then I'm getting back to work.Very profound and well said! My kids are 20 and 26, and I was too late getting into the game to get them interested. But when I show them some of my camo jobs they refer to them as "cruel" or "sick" which I appreciate as they still enjoy the evil creativity. I got a co-worker addicted and he takes his young daughter along. We have been out with them and it's a riot to see his daughter see a hole in a tree and yell "THIS would be a GREAT place for a geocache!". She prefers full sized caches because she's still in the "treasure hunt" mode and I can understand that. Seems like a magnetic key holder has shown that your kids are moving up a notch on appreciating the game more. I have found a large number of cachers who don't judge caches at all but absolutely LOVE the fact that geocaching on a whole is like belonging to a secret society that operates behind the scenes and under everyone else's noses. We've had discussions that if it became too popular it would no longer be much fun. We even pulled the geocaching tag off the front of the Jeepster because we like stealth, even with that, and the bison tube with the GC logo hanging from the mirror with the nano container stuck to the ring should be enough to tell another geocacher what we're up to Quote Link to comment
+derangedlunatech Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 That speaks for itself that a lame location or technique makes for a lame cache... don't think the size of the container has much to do with that. I would agree that grabbing a bag of free 35mm canisters from Walgreens, tearing up a sheet of paper and stuffing it somewhere is easy compared to spending the money on an ammo can or painting up a Lock-n-Lock and and buying the swag to load it with then hauling it out to find a spot. And lame caches are probably mostly due to people not willing to put much effort or creativity into their hides so would also choose the easy (cheaper) route for the container. But I don't think anyone can state that any cache is lame just due to the fact that it's a micro. Every cache needs to be judged on it's own merits. Absolutely agree. I just think that the micro begs to be "shotgunned." Small, cheap, minimal maintenance, can be placed anywhere. I mostly cache in an urban environment, where stashing an ammo can, or even a decent sized lock 'n lock can be pretty challenging. There's a few locals who do it very well. In fact there was one I fund recently that I commented not only on its location, but also how it was hidden almost in plain sight. It really amazed me - there's an art to that. The same hider stuck a micro in a great spot almost literally right across the street from my house, and it took me 6 tries before I found it. Again - it was a great use of a micro. I tend to think (and I could be wrong, of course) that spend 5-10 bucks on an ammo can, + stocking it, + camo (if desired) to hide somewhere (especially in an urban environment) and you put some care into the hide - especially that it be unlikely to be muggled - or worse yet, set off a bomb scare. But a micro? Heck, like you said - a buck and a piece of paper, throw it anywhere. I recently made up 6 caches to be placed...when I find the right spot. 3 micros and 3 lock 'n locks. Been carrying them with me for 2 weeks now - and although there are plenty of places I *could* put them - I'm looking for places where I *want to* put them. Might take me a while, but that's how it goes. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I'll say. You do have dozens and dozens of hides. In my example of a lone cache in the forest being a film can, I would have rather had it be a big ammo can. But, in your case, you're making a whole series of fun caches and mixing it up to keep it exciting, so a variety is great.There are a few around here like that. One has about 25 hides, 9 miles to get them all, and the other is around 20 over 5 or 6 miles. There is a variety of types and terrain from large containers to micros hidden where you have to climb a tree.Sounds familiar and for several of our biggest series you do have to climb trees. I have even gone as far as making a full information page about the area (Gilley Creek Track) for geoacachers (needs an update) that shows the trail maps, the current conditions, photo albums, information links, hiking and biking information and notes about what people will face, and even a page that gives people a suggested order of attack on the caches so they can get as many as possible during their excursion (and not all these are mine). The place is pretty open but pretty unique so we coined the term the "Nowhere" series as in being in the middle of nowhere. We found the place in a recreation guide and I hide the first cache out there, Nowhere In Sight, a 5 part multi with camoed stages and an ammo can final that takes 11 miles to complete. The rest grew from that. http://www.infinitempg.com/gilley.htm We try to help people out with more then just hiding caches.... I myself have a few smaller series of caches designed to be done on bike that are mixes of smalls, regulars and micros, again to make them fun. It does get boring walking 1/4 mile from cache to cache and having them all be the same. Agreed and the caches are only as good as the owners make them. Personally I have found geocaching to be a great outlet for my creativity that lost it's target when my kids grew up. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I mostly cache in an urban environment, where stashing an ammo can, or even a decent sized lock 'n lock can be pretty challenging. There's a few locals who do it very well. In fact there was one I fund recently that I commented not only on its location, but also how it was hidden almost in plain sight. It really amazed me - there's an art to that. I'm familiar with that art : A Time To Reflect GC18BBH A full sized Lock-n-Lock in a massively urban hi-rise downtown location with a bazillion cars passing by every ten minutes yet found without much muggle problem (but in plain sight of thousands). I like the challenges in hiding as much as finding and like that people have fun with it .....but caches DO need a rating system. shhhhhhh Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 (edited) ...That speaks for itself that a lame location or technique makes for a lame cache... don't think the size of the container has much to do with that.... It's a contributing factor. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can trade swag, or even poke through it. All other things bieng the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can sign the log without needing a magnifying glass or tweezers. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoable to more people if they can swap out travel bugs. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can read more than just initials on the log. And so on. A larger container is like icing on the cake. It leaves more options open for how the cache can be enjoyed. That's exaclty why using the largest container the area can reasonably support is a good rule of thumb. Like all rules of thumb it's not writ in stone. Sometimes a camo technique in a specific spot will demand a smaller cache. However if that same spot can support a film canister size vs. a nano...the rule still applies at that level. You can ignore all that and use a differnet rule of thumb. Never make a cache smaller than it needs to be. The result is about the same. Maybe I'll adopt that rule of thumb. Edited June 27, 2008 by Renegade Knight Quote Link to comment
dlp8 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) We even pulled the geocaching tag off the front of the Jeepster because we like stealth, even with that, and the bison tube with the GC logo hanging from the mirror with the nano container stuck to the ring should be enough to tell another geocacher what we're up to Maybe there should be a secret handsign. Twice when we've been out in the field, we've bumped into other geocachers (We were new. We had our tell-tale printouts in hand, looking like lost tourists in flowered shirts), and those have been fun interchanges with other afficionados. We do feel a little like a cross between Indiana Jones and Harry Potter (from whence we assume the term "muggle" was adapted): adventurers and treasure hunters that have some secret power, ability, and knowledge that the rest of the "muggle" world lacks. My boys love the stealth aspect (except when they find the ammo can and shout "I found it!" at the top of their lungs) and are always wary of "muggles." There are some philosophical aspects to all of this that I'm starting to understand. I think they explain the addictive nature of the sport. People long for a sense of belonging. We find fulfilment of that in family, church, social circles, etc. I've been facinated by my teenagers' involvement in their facebook social networks--a "community", bound by technology and common interests. Geocaching seems to have that same element: it is a community of people bound by technology and nature and the varying things they find "fun" about the sport. The finding of a cache is not only an accomplishment, but because of the online logs and the hints and data from the "hider," it is like finding a present. "Here, I hid this for you, and now you've found it. Good job!" It creates a connection between hider and finder, and the community at large. Okay, enough philosophizing. Incidentally, my 16-year-old daughter just said to me, "Dad, the next time you go geocaching, I want to come." Great news. But the story leading up to the comment is even more telling. She and two of her siblings just got back from a camp in Settlement Canyon, Utah, called "Camp Hobe." It is a camp for children with cancer and their siblings. Anyway, one of the activities was geocaching. Three instructors came to the camp and taught the kids the basics, and she got bit by the geobug! I publicly want to thank those who sacrificed their time to go up to the camp and teach those kids, on the chance that they may read this post. Turns out, one of them is the father of one of our dear family friends! It is a small world. (especially when you have all the coordinates ). Anyway, thanks for the encouragement, and thanks especially to those who came up with this crazy activity in the first place. I've been trying to identify who of the "charter members" gets credit for inventing the sport. I suspect that is the stuff of myth and legend (and controversy . regards, dlp8 and the boys (aka, "The Mighty Cache-oo Hunters" ) Edited June 28, 2008 by dlp8 Quote Link to comment
+baloo&bd Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 It's a contributing factor. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can trade swag, or even poke through it. All other things bieng the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can sign the log without needing a magnifying glass or tweezers. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoable to more people if they can swap out travel bugs. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can read more than just initials on the log. And so on. A larger container is like icing on the cake. It leaves more options open for how the cache can be enjoyed. That's exaclty why using the largest container the area can reasonably support is a good rule of thumb. Like all rules of thumb it's not writ in stone. Sometimes a camo technique in a specific spot will demand a smaller cache. However if that same spot can support a film canister size vs. a nano...the rule still applies at that level. You can ignore all that and use a differnet rule of thumb. Never make a cache smaller than it needs to be. The result is about the same. Maybe I'll adopt that rule of thumb. "All things being the same" most people are in this for the hunt, not the broken mctoys. "All things being the same" larger containers significantly if not totally eliminate any challenge in finding the cache. "All things being the same", a micro or a nano is less cause for alarm if they are stumbled upon by an unsuspecting muggle. The best rule of thumb is to use the container you want for your style of hide or to get the job done. For many, all that is necessary is a container with a log, no more. In an earlier post, someone mentioned that since so many people are complaining about micros (actually it is a very small percentage whining over and over) that maybe GC should do something about it. To throw it back, since so many people apparently like micros, as judging by the number being hidden and how often they are found, maybe GC should police these anti comments. I don't really believe they should, but same logic. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "All things being the same" larger containers significantly if not totally eliminate any challenge in finding the cache. Hoo! Ha Ha!.... Thanx! I needed a good belly laugh. That was one of the funniest things I've read in here in a long time! Now I gotta figure out how to get the Mountain Dew out of my keyboard. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "Hello, 911, what is the nature of your emergency?" "Hi, I was hiking thru the woods and there were a group of people walking around this one spot holding what looked like cell phones and peeking and poking around these couple of trees. All of sudden one of them said they found "it" and they all ran over and started taking notes or something. I watched from behind the trees and after they left I walked over to see what they were looking at." "Yes, and what did you find?" "I looked up in the crotch of a tree branch and there was a 35mm FILM CANISTER sitting there!!!" "Oh my gawd!!!! Did any of them see you looking at it?" "I don't think so but it must be some sort of terrorist thingy. Please send the bomb squad straight over!!!" "They're already on their way along with the SWAT team. Please remain calm and walk at least 100-feet from the film canister and don't make any sudden movements!" Yeah, I don't think any bomb scares or public safety issues have happened due to a micro.... and yeah, it's more of a challenge to find a 35mmfilm canister then a massive ammo can and some people like the walk and not the hunt... so use filters... PUH-lease Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 ....The best rule of thumb is to use the container you want... Broken McToys got there by traders. Traders don't lessen the hunt for others. That's a key thing you didn't factor in. There are quite a few things that really don't lessen the fun for one group but increase it for another. For example: Use a light colored log when you don't include a pencil or pen in the cache. You might think this is a no brainer but if you use a black log it's hard to read what people sign and other people like reading the log. Yeah, you could say "use the color log you want for your hide" but for most caches this is no skin off anyone's nose that does allow more fun for the ones who like reading the log book and no less fun for those who could care less. If your hide style is needle in a haystack then smaller is better. For everything else a larger container for the same hide is a nice thing to do and remains a good rule of thumb. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "All things being the same" larger containers significantly if not totally eliminate any challenge in finding the cache. Hoo! Ha Ha!.... Thanx! I needed a good belly laugh. That was one of the funniest things I've read in here in a long time! Now I gotta figure out how to get the Mountain Dew out of my keyboard. That was pretty good. Can't say caches got easier locally when Micro's started gong the way of the Dodo. Of course not every town can have as many talented hiders as mine. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "Hello, 911, what is the nature of your emergency?" "Hi, I was hiking thru the woods and there were a group of people walking around this one spot holding what looked like cell phones and peeking and poking around these couple of trees. All of sudden one of them said they found "it" and they all ran over and started taking notes or something. I watched from behind the trees and after they left I walked over to see what they were looking at." "Yes, and what did you find?" "I looked up in the crotch of a tree branch and there was a 35mm FILM CANISTER sitting there!!!" "Oh my gawd!!!! Did any of them see you looking at it?" "I don't think so but it must be some sort of terrorist thingy. Please send the bomb squad straight over!!!" "They're already on their way along with the SWAT team. Please remain calm and walk at least 100-feet from the film canister and don't make any sudden movements!" Yeah, I don't think any bomb scares or public safety issues have happened due to a micro.... and yeah, it's more of a challenge to find a 35mmfilm canister then a massive ammo can and some people like the walk and not the hunt... so use filters... PUH-lease Had that call. They reported my ammo can as a drug stash. The Narcotics officer opened it up, found nothing and all was good. By a courthouse you may not want to hide that ammo can. The location probably could not support it for the reason you jest about. I'd not even hide a micro there. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Maybe I'll place a needle hide and ask folks to post a note if they "don't want to bother" vs folks who love this stuff and see where the numbers are. Beats arguing on behalf of common sense in the forums. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 "All things being the same" most people are in this for the hunt, not the broken mctoys. Has a survey been taken which quantifies what most people want from this game? (Maybe there should be one: it's pretty easy to set one up with surveymonkey). I know that in my neck of the woods there are lots of teams which include small children. While a broken mctoy doesn't interest most adult cachers, even a broken mctoy might be considered a treasure to a 4 year old. At the very least, a larger container provides the opportunity to paw through the swag to see if there is something interesting. A couple of weeks ago I was on a group hunt for a 1000th find tribute cache along with about 12 others, about half of them children. The cache series consisted of five caches, ranging in size from a nano to a supersized ammo can (about 10 times the size of a 30mm can). One girl, probably about 6 years old was walking down the trail next to me an I noticed that she was carrying her own swag bag. It was very cute. As we found each cache I certainly noticed an increased interest in each one. When we got to the last two she had her bag out, was trading items, and even dropped in and picked up to TBs. It was pretty obvious that she wasn't in it just for the hunt and I imagine most small children hold little interest in caches which only contain a log book. "All things being the same" larger containers significantly if not totally eliminate any challenge in finding the cache. That implies that the quality of the cache is proportional to the challenge in finding it. It certain is easier to hide a micro than an ammo can. That encourages hides that require less thought and imagination and leads to less interesting hides. If you like challenges, try hiding a ammo can in a clever manner such that it's difficult to find. Quote Link to comment
+KBI Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) Maybe I'll place a needle hide and ask folks to post a note if they "don't want to bother" vs folks who love this stuff and see where the numbers are. Beats arguing on behalf of common sense in the forums. Are you referring to the ‘rule of thumb’ you keep promoting? In that case, let’s be accurate about this: You are not arguing on behalf of “common sense.” You are only arguing on behalf of your own individual personal preference. You are merely stating your personal opinion, yet by calling it a rule of thumb you keep stating your opinion as if it were the only ‘correct’ or ‘proper’ opinion. You say: Using the largest container the area can reasonably support is a good rule of thumb. If that is your opinion; if that is your caching preference; if that is the way you view the ideal hide – then I fully support your right to hold, state, and promote your opinion (... and I will probably enjoy finding your caches). I do not, however, share that opinion, and I think it is reasonable to assume that there are many other folks like me whose preferences differ from yours (... and after I find and log your caches I will probably find some micros that I enjoy just as much). Here is my personal opinion: All other things being equal, it really doesn’t matter to me one bit what size container the cache owner chooses. Since my opinion violates your “rule of thumb,” then does that mean your opinion is superior to mine? Of course not. Truth is, both our opinions are equally worthless. It's a contributing factor. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can trade swag, or even poke through it. Your premise here is that people require the presence of trade swag in order to fully enjoy geocaching. This is not true for me, and I know plenty of others who don’t need any trade swag either. All other things bieng the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can sign the log without needing a magnifying glass or tweezers. This premise is perhaps closer to being a universal truth ... but then again, most micros don’t have logs so tiny as to require a magnifying glass or tweezers, which means that your point amounts to an exaggeration as it applies to this thread. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoable to more people if they can swap out travel bugs. Again, your premise presumes much. Many cachers don't bother with travel bugs. I stopped caring about travel bugs a long time ago. Besides, why would any reasonable person demand, or even expect, to be able to drop a travel bug in a cache that is clearly listed as a micro? If a cacher really needs to find, drop or swap a bug he can easily find himself a non-micro listing. All other things being the same a cache is more enjoyable to more people if they can read more than just initials on the log. Another assumption. You may be correct, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I believe most folks don’t really care. If I am hunting a micro, then I am fully aware that the log sheet is likely to have nothing but signatures. If I ever decide I need to be able to read additional comments in order to more fully enjoy my cache outing, then there are plenty of non-micros out there for me to choose from. I have no right to insist that cache hiders modify their favored cache container sizes in order to appease my specific personal preference. Like all rules of thumb it's not writ in stone. Change “rules of thumb” to “personal preferences” and I’m behind you 100%. Edited June 28, 2008 by KBI Quote Link to comment
+belair56 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I put out 32 caches and I have one micro, I pride that my caches are always full of good stuff to trade, But sometimes I think micros are the way to go, Maybe the Admin folks should limit the amount of micros in an area. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) I just think that the micro begs to be "shotgunned." Small, cheap, minimal maintenance, can be placed anywhere. ...Clearly, you have never owned a microcache. In reality, the average micro requires much more maintenance than the average larger cache. I mostly cache in an urban environment, where stashing an ammo can, or even a decent sized lock 'n lock can be pretty challenging. There's a few locals who do it very well. In fact there was one I fund recently that I commented not only on its location, but also how it was hidden almost in plain sight. It really amazed me - there's an art to that. I'm familiar with that art : A Time To Reflect GC18BBH A full sized Lock-n-Lock in a massively urban hi-rise downtown location with a bazillion cars passing by every ten minutes yet found without much muggle problem (but in plain sight of thousands). I like the challenges in hiding as much as finding and like that people have fun with it Larger caches in an urban environment bring about many additional problems. As has been discussed, they are much more likely to end up on the evening news than a micro. Also, they are much more likely to be muggled. I suspect that this is related to those finders who disrespectfully ignore the necessity for stealth. ... The best rule of thumb is to use the container you want ...Broken McToys got there by traders. Traders don't lessen the hunt for others. That's a key thing you didn't factor in. There are quite a few things that really don't lessen the fun for one group but increase it for another. ...The fact that people get angsty when they find caches filled with junk should definitely be a stroke against larger caches. It doesn't matter how the junk got in the cache, people will still whine about it.I put out 32 caches and I have one micro, I pride that my caches are always full of good stuff to trade, But sometimes I think micros are the way to go, Maybe the Admin folks should limit the amount of micros in an area.I don't get it. If you think that micros are 'the way to go', why should there numbers be limited? Edited June 30, 2008 by sbell111 Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I put out 32 caches and I have one micro, I pride that my caches are always full of good stuff to trade, But sometimes I think micros are the way to go, Maybe the Admin folks should limit the amount of micros in an area.I don't get it. If you think that micros are 'the way to go', why should there numbers be limited? It looks like Belair under estimated his number of micros by quite a few. I'm familiar with his area, and there are a ton of micros there, for the size of the town. I would like to see a total ban on micros there. Just kidding. Quote Link to comment
+ArcherDragoon Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 "Hello, 911, what is the nature of your emergency?" "Hi, I was hiking thru the woods and there were a group of people walking around this one spot holding what looked like cell phones and peeking and poking around these couple of trees. All of sudden one of them said they found "it" and they all ran over and started taking notes or something. I watched from behind the trees and after they left I walked over to see what they were looking at." "Yes, and what did you find?" "I looked up in the crotch of a tree branch and there was a 35mm FILM CANISTER sitting there!!!" "Oh my gawd!!!! Did any of them see you looking at it?" "I don't think so but it must be some sort of terrorist thingy. Please send the bomb squad straight over!!!" "They're already on their way along with the SWAT team. Please remain calm and walk at least 100-feet from the film canister and don't make any sudden movements!" Yeah, I don't think any bomb scares or public safety issues have happened due to a micro.... and yeah, it's more of a challenge to find a 35mmfilm canister then a massive ammo can and some people like the walk and not the hunt... so use filters... PUH-lease Actually...a micro was blownup in Minneapolis a while ago...and no...it was not camo'ed like a pipe bomb...it was a plain old pill bottle...poor tree it was in still shows the damage from the "experience"...I will see if I can find that article... Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Went to place A Nightmare on Elm St (concept evil Micro) in honor of this thread but I coudn't find my micro container. I love irony. So I went to check on a full size cache that had been skunking some folks. It was there. Those darned full size caches that cause DNF's. Wasn't someone saying they are easy? Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Has a survey been taken which quantifies what most people want from this game? (Maybe there should be one: it's pretty easy to set one up with surveymonkey). I know that in my neck of the woods there are lots of teams which include small children. While a broken mctoy doesn't interest most adult cachers, even a broken mctoy might be considered a treasure to a 4 year old. At the very least, a larger container provides the opportunity to paw through the swag to see if there is something interesting.ACK!.... a survey?.... bleck. That's like saying the majority of people like blue cars so we should limit the number of red ones. Every cache should be judged on it's own merits not on some cold calculated standard as there is an art to hiding. Some are better at it then others but kudos to everyone who hides caches as they're adding to the fun for the GC community! Debating micros against regulars from the aspect of if kids enjoy it with no swag to trade is no different then trying to regulate how far a swag filled regular should be allowed to be out in a preserve because someone determined how far a child can hike before it's not fun anymore. GC is made up of as many different types of caches as there are people searching for them and thankfully everyone has the right to just look for what they want. I dread the day we only have one or two movies to choose from at the theatre because those are the types that the "majority" of people like to see.... let's leave socialism for the socialists We need a finder ranked rating system that also includes a kid friendly rating that would help tremendously with what people want to find, would help identify "lame" or "great" caches and solves most of these type issues and debates.... ::sigh:: Did I say that outloud? .... again? hehehe Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Went to place A Nightmare on Elm St (concept evil Micro) in honor of this thread but I coudn't find my micro container. I love irony. So I went to check on a full size cache that had been skunking some folks. It was there. Those darned full size caches that cause DNF's. Wasn't someone saying they are easy?We were many miles into a preserve on a hot day and spent about 45 minutes looking for a full sized ammo can that had been DNF'ed a bunch of times and hadn't been found in almost a year (well, we actually quit looking a dozen times but walking away went "WAIT! I need to look in ONE more place!" and stubornly went back not wanting to give up). We finally found it but the issue was that debris from trees and stuff had buried it badly. Wasn't that it was a hard find, just it was a victim of the cycle of Florida weather and flora. If not for the debris it would of been a 30 second find. Not everything big is easy to find, look how long it took Europeans to find America.... Quote Link to comment
+wandering4cache Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) On our recent 2 week trip to CA, it would have been nice to find a few more caches that were any size other than micro. We had carried many travel bugs from MA that had goals to be in certain cities. At one point, after 3 days in a part of CA & running out of time in the area, with a TB that really need to be dropped there & unable to find a cache yet that would hold the TB, I resorted to leaving the TB next to the cache only because it was surely on a trail that not just anyone would find & the cache area was well concealed. Luckily, the TB was picked up the next day. However, the area certainly could have handled a larger container than was there. Edited June 30, 2008 by wandering4cache Quote Link to comment
Neos2 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 "All things being the same" most people are in this for the hunt, not the broken mctoys. Has a survey been taken which quantifies what most people want from this game? (Maybe there should be one: it's pretty easy to set one up with surveymonkey). Who we gonna survey? The people in these forums would see it, but some of them spend more time here than caching. In fact, some of them never go caching. The people who do the most caching never come to the forums and probably won't see it. They'll be out doing their own unofficial survey...finding the caches they want to find. If we went by "caches found" as probably being the "most desirable" type of cache to place, I think there would be a lot of surprised and unhappy people here! Of course, I doubt that anyone would disagree that a fun-to-find, well-placed, appropriately sized, attractive, container with a dry log book (with or without additional ability to trade) in a safe, scenic, possibly historic, area that is easy to find without worrying about other people seeing is probably the ideal that many of us strive for while hiding. Me, I'm satisfied with caches that have some combination of those attributes. Every cache ought to have some redeeming quality. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 ...If we went by "caches found" as probably being the "most desirable" type of cache to place, I think there would be a lot of surprised and unhappy people here! ... Oh, that's just brutal. Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I mostly agree with the concept of placing the largest container that the site can support. But I don't think I have traded for anything but the occasional signature item in at least two years. And that time it was for a pair of tweezers that I've used on many occasions to get logs out of those damed nano containers. I just don't really care what is in the cache besides the log. And the occasional trackable if I'm in the mood to move them on. Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 "All things being the same" most people are in this for the hunt, not the broken mctoys. Has a survey been taken which quantifies what most people want from this game? (Maybe there should be one: it's pretty easy to set one up with surveymonkey). Who we gonna survey? The people in these forums would see it, but some of them spend more time here than caching. In fact, some of them never go caching. The people who do the most caching never come to the forums and probably won't see it. They'll be out doing their own unofficial survey...finding the caches they want to find. If we went by "caches found" as probably being the "most desirable" type of cache to place, I think there would be a lot of surprised and unhappy people here! Of course, I doubt that anyone would disagree that a fun-to-find, well-placed, appropriately sized, attractive, container with a dry log book (with or without additional ability to trade) in a safe, scenic, possibly historic, area that is easy to find without worrying about other people seeing is probably the ideal that many of us strive for while hiding. Me, I'm satisfied with caches that have some combination of those attributes. Every cache ought to have some redeeming quality. There actually was a customer service survey a couple of years ago, and I was one of the lucky participants. Pretty generic questions, but I do remember one of them was "Do you like micros"? That's it, not "Do you like micros at historic canal locks built in 1845" (found one Saturday), or "Do you like micros in the alley behind the local Supermarket that everyone knows darn well was placed there without permission". But I think the many active geocachers who never look at these zany forums and find every cache listed on the website near them have already spoken. Micros aren't going anywhere. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I mostly agree with the concept of placing the largest container that the site can support. Was placing a cache in an almost 6,000 acre preserve that's a reclaimed cattle ranch and since I didn't have the used railroad car container which the site could support, I broke down and placed a decon high up in a tree hanging over a gulley instead Other then the fact that less creative people who want to place caches use micros because they are easy, I think size doesn't matter one spec. A cache that's meant to introduce someone to a totally cool spot doesn't need swag to make it fun. A cache that's meant to challenge someone to figure out how the hint "your mother's sister is a pyromanic" shows them where a micro is hidden doesn't need a big container to get pleasure at figuring it out. The solver of a difficulty 5 puzzle cache does not need a big container and swag to feel satisfaction for being dedicated enough to figure it out. We each take what we want from GC and if that's a McRusty 2-cent Chinese toy to someone then filter out the rest. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out. But I don't think I have traded for anything but the occasional signature item in at least two years. And that time it was for a pair of tweezers that I've used on many occasions to get logs out of those damed nano containers. I just don't really care what is in the cache besides the log. And the occasional trackable if I'm in the mood to move them on.Agreed! The only swag I've laid my hands on in ages is the stuff I pre-stocked cache hides with (other then trade items which I do like doing and have found and placed small TB's and coins in micros). Most of what I've seen in ammo cans lately (other then beads and plastic critters) is decomposed, rusted, broken, semi-melted (ammo cans get to be about a bazillion degrees here), moldy, damp (humidty gets to everything here) dollar store grab junk that I doubt most parents would want their kids hauling back to the car with them, let alone even touching. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) Also, having had to re-stock regulars on many occasions, having to explain to TB owners that my cache got muggled with their precious and sentimental TB's inside (or having that explained to me), having found my (and many other) regular caches just tossed "near" where they were hidden with no cover, having had logs and contents ruined because of cachers not sealing full sized caches properly, makes you understand why a some people who just want to own a few caches may avoid the expense and maintenance of regular caches and opt for inexpensive micros. Many people probably also don't like the thought of making 2 or 3 cache maintenance runs a week, having open accounts at military surplus stores, having the back of their Jeep loaded with cache containers and repair gear and plan kayak and hiking trips around cache maintenance rather then recreation or finding caches, like some of us do.... Remind me again why I do this? Edited June 30, 2008 by infiniteMPG Quote Link to comment
+Markwell Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 ...If we went by "caches found" as probably being the "most desirable" type of cache to place, I think there would be a lot of surprised and unhappy people here! ... Oh, that's just brutal. brutal and skewed. If a cacher stuck solely to 1/1 micros, they could leave my home, drive 30 miles of traveling, never get more than 10 miles away from my home, and score 15 cache finds. --OR-- In that same time of maybe 90 minutes, drive 7 miles to a little more rugged park, and hike for an hour to find a single cache. My preference would be for the latter experience. Some of the ones voted "best" caches in our GONIL area also have the lowest number of finds on them, because they are more rugged and the casual cachers don't seek these. I can go to a steakhouse and pay $65 for a great hunk of meat, and spend 2 hours in the restaurant enjoying myself. Or the local Taco Bell can make $200 with 50 people in their drive-thru in that same amount of time. Just because Taco Bell has more people coming to them doesn't necessarily make their food more favored than the juicy steakhouse. Quote Link to comment
+wandering4cache Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) Of course, I doubt that anyone would disagree that a fun-to-find, well-placed, appropriately sized, attractive, container with a dry log book (with or without additional ability to trade) in a safe, scenic, possibly historic, area that is easy to find without worrying about other people seeing is probably the ideal that many of us strive for while hiding. Me, I'm satisfied with caches that have some combination of those attributes. Every cache ought to have some redeeming quality. I need a worship smiley here. I know that's the type of caches I WANT to or PREFER to look for. Edited June 30, 2008 by wandering4cache Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I mostly agree with the concept of placing the largest container that the site can support. Was placing a cache in an almost 6,000 acre preserve that's a reclaimed cattle ranch and since I didn't have the used railroad car container which the site could support, I broke down and placed a decon high up in a tree hanging over a gulley instead Other then the fact that less creative people who want to place caches use micros because they are easy, I think size doesn't matter one spec.... You have to ignore all the reasons size does matter in a cache to hold that philosopy. Your call. However as a result of this thread I'm now going to lean towards the tweak to my rule of thumb already mentioned. Don't use a cache smaller than you need to. That lets folks who's muse demands a nano stuck in a cow pie follow their inspiration without having to explain to them that using the largest cache the area can reasonably support isn't intended to stop their nano/pie inspiration so much as fill in where inspiration leaves off. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 ... having to explain to TB owners that my cache got muggled with their precious and sentimental TB's inside... That's a consideration that I had not thought of. It's beyond my control though and so I'd never sweat it. TB's are not my thing. They are someone elses thing though and so a world where everone goes to micro's for fear of a TB being stolen would leave a lot of TB litter behind. Quote Link to comment
+baloo&bd Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 On our recent 2 week trip to CA, it would have been nice to find a few more caches that were any size other than micro. We had carried many travel bugs from MA that had goals to be in certain cities. At one point, after 3 days in a part of CA & running out of time in the area, with a TB that really need to be dropped there & unable to find a cache yet that would hold the TB, I resorted to leaving the TB next to the cache only because it was surely on a trail that not just anyone would find & the cache area was well concealed. Luckily, the TB was picked up the next day. However, the area certainly could have handled a larger container than was there. There is no way to make this sound like I am not taking a shot at you, so I will apologize in advance. If I were to look at just this post as an example, it sounds like it is less about lazy hiders than about lazy finders. There is absolutely no area in the US, even urban areas, where a cache with a container can not be found that will hold a bug. If you are looking for a 1/1 park and grab maybe, however with a little hike there should be no problem. Quote Link to comment
+baloo&bd Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Went to place A Nightmare on Elm St (concept evil Micro) in honor of this thread but I coudn't find my micro container. I love irony. So I went to check on a full size cache that had been skunking some folks. It was there. Those darned full size caches that cause DNF's. Wasn't someone saying they are easy? Fairly certain that was a response to a comment along the lines of all micros being placed uninspired by lazy cachers. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I will do my best to take you to an interesting, or scenic place. (Well, with one exception. And that was meant as a satire.) I will hide what I consider to be the best container for that location. They range from a nano to magnetic keyholders to Lock and Locks to ammo cans. If you want to see what I found so interesting or pretty, come and visit my caches. If you are not interested in micro caches, you will miss this view: Your prerogative. But, I certainly thought it worth the effort to bring you here for the view. And most of the cache finders have agreed. Even if it's only a magnetic keyholder. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Remind me again why I do this? Cuz in the long run it's cheaper than illicit drugs? Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I mostly agree with the concept of placing the largest container that the site can support. Was placing a cache in an almost 6,000 acre preserve that's a reclaimed cattle ranch and since I didn't have the used railroad car container which the site could support, I broke down and placed a decon high up in a tree hanging over a gulley instead Other then the fact that less creative people who want to place caches use micros because they are easy, I think size doesn't matter one spec.... You have to ignore all the reasons size does matter in a cache to hold that philosopy. Your call. However as a result of this thread I'm now going to lean towards the tweak to my rule of thumb already mentioned. Don't use a cache smaller than you need to. That lets folks who's muse demands a nano stuck in a cow pie follow their inspiration without having to explain to them that using the largest cache the area can reasonably support isn't intended to stop their nano/pie inspiration so much as fill in where inspiration leaves off. You are coming dangerously close to my suggestion that people should use the size container that they want to. Quote Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I mostly agree with the concept of placing the largest container that the site can support. Was placing a cache in an almost 6,000 acre preserve that's a reclaimed cattle ranch and since I didn't have the used railroad car container which the site could support, I broke down and placed a decon high up in a tree hanging over a gulley instead Other then the fact that less creative people who want to place caches use micros because they are easy, I think size doesn't matter one spec.... You have to ignore all the reasons size does matter in a cache to hold that philosopy. Your call. However as a result of this thread I'm now going to lean towards the tweak to my rule of thumb already mentioned. Don't use a cache smaller than you need to. That lets folks who's muse demands a nano stuck in a cow pie follow their inspiration without having to explain to them that using the largest cache the area can reasonably support isn't intended to stop their nano/pie inspiration so much as fill in where inspiration leaves off. You are coming dangerously close to my suggestion that people should use the size container that they want to. I really like the new way RK is describing his personal preference. He specifically acknowledges infiniteMPG’s right to his opinion. He has dropped the phrase "the rule of thumb" in favor of the phrase "my rule of thumb." No further objections, your honor. If I were a moderator, RK’s post is the type of post I would applaud as an example of civilized tolerance and rational discussion, and how to state one's opinion without imposing one's opinion. (Not that I want to be a moderator. This place would crash within hours if I were made a moderator.) Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 ...You are coming dangerously close to my suggestion that people should use the size container that they want to. I had to allow for the fact that I'm a big believer in following your muse when it comes to your hides. When your muse demands a dinky cache...you have to listen. That said when your muse could care less about that angle on the cache, the bigger container is better. We may be close enough to dance. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 That's a consideration that I had not thought of. It's beyond my control though and so I'd never sweat it. If an owner hides a regular cache large enough for TB's and coins in a place that has a high probability of muggles or where there is marginal cover or that requires maximum stealth then it is under the owner's control as they are putting TB's at risk. And other cachers have control as well as they all too often just toss the cache near where it was hidden without taking the time to rehide it properly. And realizing a cache is MIA, it's not fun looking up the TB's that were in there to read "This TB was made from our first born's first toy and we're hoping it can play with your baby's first toy, too" and you have to write them and say "Oh well, it's gone!". That's not real fun and it's also something someone hiding micros doesn't really have to deal with. I will do my best to take you to an interesting, or scenic place. (Well, with one exception. And that was meant as a satire.) I will hide what I consider to be the best container for that location. They range from a nano to magnetic keyholders to Lock and Locks to ammo cans. If you want to see what I found so interesting or pretty, come and visit my caches. If you are not interested in micro caches, you will miss this view.....Your prerogative. But, I certainly thought it worth the effort to bring you here for the view. And most of the cache finders have agreed. Even if it's only a magnetic keyholder.Agreed 110%!!!! With caches like that the reward is the view and not the McToys that are inside. Even a DNF at a spot like that is still worth the search (not as much fun, but still enjoyable as the smilie is on the face rather then on the log sheet). Remind me again why I do this? Cuz in the long run it's cheaper than illicit drugs? You mean we had to pick one or the other?!?!?!?! I think what I've invested in GC (not counting labor) would be right up there with a major addict's expenses. Does methadone work for GC withdrawals??? Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 That's a consideration that I had not thought of. It's beyond my control though and so I'd never sweat it. If an owner hides a regular cache large enough for TB's and coins in a place that has a high probability of muggles or where there is marginal cover or that requires maximum stealth then it is under the owner's control as they are putting TB's at risk..... They only thing about TB's under the owners control are the TB's that they placed with the cache. If a finder comes along and puts a TB in a risky cache that's beyond the owner's control (both the TB and Cache owner). If you choose to worry about that, then it becomes a concern. However if you place a Micro to avoid that concern, you have only traded one problem for another . Now people cant' trade TB's. If that's not your concern (and it's not mine when on the rare occasion my muse demands a micro) then like you point out. You are good to go. Quote Link to comment
+infiniteMPG Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 They only thing about TB's under the owners control are the TB's that they placed with the cache. If a finder comes along and puts a TB in a risky cache that's beyond the owner's control (both the TB and Cache owner). If you choose to worry about that, then it becomes a concern. However if you place a Micro to avoid that concern, you have only traded one problem for another . Now people cant' trade TB's. If that's not your concern (and it's not mine when on the rare occasion my muse demands a micro) then like you point out. You are good to go.My only concern is that I'm not really concerned about it at all. Hide quality hides in good locations, or good challenges, or good camo, provide a mix of sizes and techniques and try to make each cache unique and it's own adventure. Then maintain them as well as possible and try to keep it fun for everyone as much as you can. If people want to hide all micros, or no micros, or mix 'em up, good for them! At least they're contributing to the game. And as soon as it gets too far regulated or too serious then it won't be fun anymore and I'll look into taking up bungi-jumping blindfolded speed knitting or something... Quote Link to comment
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