FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

8.9k · February 22, 2008

Thats not off topic at all thats exactly what I was refuring to, I suppose nobody here would step off the trail to grab that Cache? Most trails around rivers and wildlife areas say "stay on the trail" So if i put a cache out and it could be reached without leaving the trail (if your tall enough) but The FTF or anybody for that matter logs a find by going off the trail cause lets say it was easier for them to reach? I have the right to Erase any or all logs because i didnt feel they had good enough Moral's? Thats ridiculous!

In this instance, if you place a cache where you would consider that NO ONE could or would find the cache without going off trails, you probably shouldn't place it at all! Many locations which allow hides require you to stay on the trails...most of those locations also require you to have permission to place a cache. It IS the cache owner's responsibility to place a hide within guidelines and which CAN reasonably be found w/o leaving the trail, breaking the rules or laws etc... This isn't the case at all in this debate though and should be taken to another topic IMHO

To carry your thought further though...IF you had permission to place said cache and IF you posted all those requirements, I'd expect all to either follow the instructions (or rules as they may be) or their find can be deleted! And YES, I'd quickly delete ANY logs from people claiming to have found the cache by breaking any rules or intstructions (why bother listing them otherwise??)...I'd HOPE you, as the cache owner, would want to protect your hiding privilege by doing the same!

Edited February 22, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

February 22, 2008

From the cache page:

Nice little neighborhood park. Very peaceful, and a great place to watch the sunset. Views toward the Tucson Mountains. Again, one of those areas I didn’t know existed until I stumbled on it. Cache has log and a few small items. Need to bring your own writing implement.

Park Hours: 7:00 AM to Dusk. Typical rules apply – no golfing, dogs need be on a leash, no alcohol.

Not such a great place to watch a sunset if you have to hightail it out of the park before the sun has completely set.

Edit: added quote box

Should be just fine to watch a sunset since dusk occurs after the sun has set.

The cache owner is the final say and if the page says the park is closed after a certain time so be it.

February 22, 2008

On the subject of losing caching priveleges and breaking rules to cache:

Dont break the rules,

To find a cache,

If you do,

It may be our last!

On the subject of speeding:

Don't lose your head,

To gain a minute,

You need your head,

Your brains are in it!

February 22, 2008

I do Caches all the time that are so off the path i trip out! and i dont even live in a rural area at all i cant imagine the amount of Cachers that live in a snowy climate or backwoods country that are laughing at that statement right now. Never the less the question was would "you" step off the path? with the info givin, no extra rules and no time limits, only based on your profound common sense? As a matter of fact several questions have been asked of you spacificlly and not one of them has really been answerd head on? but either way we both know the answer right.. We would step just about wherever our GPS'r points us. I say Go for the cache whenever YOU decide to if there are no stipulations posted by said Cache owner.. If your log gets deleted then o well because the time you spent hunting down a cache when you feel the erge to do so will be plenty satisfactory in the end!

8.9k · February 22, 2008

I do Caches all the time that are so off the path i trip out! and i dont even live in a rural area at all i cant imagine the amount of Cachers that live in a snowy climate or backwoods country that are laughing at that statement right now. Never the less the question was would "you" step off the path? with the info givin, no extra rules and no time limits, only based on your profound common sense? As a matter of fact several questions have been asked of you spacificlly and not one of them has really been answerd head on? but either way we both know the answer right.. We would step just about wherever our GPS'r points us. I say Go for the cache whenever YOU decide to if there are no stipulations posted by said Cache owner.. If your log gets deleted then o well because the time you spent hunting down a cache when you feel the erge to do so will be plenty satisfactory in the end!

Sorry, didn't realize you needed answers...

If someone placed a cache where you were required to stay on th trails, I'd ASSUME there would be signs pointing out these rules AT THE PARK. Whether the cache page said to stay on the trails or not, I'm of mind to follow rules, laws, guidelines etc...so yeah, I'd stay on the trails and if I couldn't reasonably get the cache w/o leaving the trail, I'd suggest to the owner that the cache should be moved or fixed to indicate there IS a way to get the cache w/o leaving the trail! I'd also likely post that there were signs stating stay on the trails. I don't need a cache owner to tell me the rules (unless they aren't posted at the parks, but I've not seen this very often).

Same as a park with posted hours...the PARK will have the posted hours (and possibly even a gated entry), you shouldn't need the CO telling you this (but it is more convenient for those who don't know the hours...courtesy more than anything else). MOST city parks have hours of operation though, those hours are usually sun up to sunset...that I've seen anyway!! If you happen to decide on a cache where you don't get the hours heads-up, would you just ignore the sign because the CO didn't specify?? Common sense says NO, what do you say?

Just because you had an URGE to visit the park after it's closed, you don't have the right to jeopardize a cache, you don't have the right to break laws rules etc... Let me ask this...if a new cache pops up near you and you KNOW others will be after it, do you have the right to speed like a madman to get to the cache first?? NO? WHY?? Oh, the laws still apply? I can see the conversation with the LEO now...Cacher: "but officer, there's a new cache just published...I'm after a FTF"! Officer..."well, when I finish writing you this ticket and putting you through my tests (cause anyone using this excuse sounds drunk or drugged up to me), you can be on your way after that FTF again"!

Your getting caught at the park could have ramifications on the cache you seek or even caches all around the area...

Now what other questions were specifically asked me that I dodged?

February 22, 2008

We would step just about wherever our GPS'r points us.

Which could also be "off a cliff" or "in front of a bus". I can't believe that people are taking the position that unless the cache owner tells them not to break the law, than it's a free-for-all!

In most places, ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense.

Yes, I do live near a park that specifically tells all visitors that hikers are not to leave the marked paths... and they mean it. And the caches placed in that park are placed in such a way that... surprise... no one need leave the path.

Sucks to know that there are folks out there willing to get Geocaching banned from some parks just so they can get a worthless FTF.

DCC

8.9k · February 22, 2008

We would step just about wherever our GPS'r points us.

Which could also be "off a cliff" or "in front of a bus". I can't believe that people are taking the position that unless the cache owner tells them not to break the law, than it's a free-for-all!

In most places, ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense.

Yes, I do live near a park that specifically tells all visitors that hikers are not to leave the marked paths... and they mean it. And the caches placed in that park are placed in such a way that... surprise... no one need leave the path.

Sucks to know that there are folks out there willing to get Geocaching banned from some parks just so they can get a worthless FTF.

DCC

AMEN!!

4.5k · February 22, 2008

I dont want to just who's right or wrong, but where do we draw the line at enforcing the laws? What if someone mentions he ran a red light to get to a cache or made an illegal U-Turn? What if someone said he did a cache after happy hour (he might be tipsy in public) The cache should mention there are consequences for finding the cache after hours.

If the cache owner actually takes the time to make mention of the park's hours of operation, then common sense would say there are possible repercussions for not adhering to those hours.

Actually, just the fact that the park has posted hours of operation should be enough without it needing to be explicitly posted on the cache listing.

The real problem is common sense isn't as common as it should be.

I've cached after hours quite often. Some parks I do, some I don't, depending on the situation. I've NEVER had a problem. Does this mean I'm using my common sense? I guess so. I look at the hours as guidelines, not necessarily rules. Did you know you can get a ticket for going the speed limit? If everyone else around you is going 65 and you are hindering traffic by going 55, you can get a ticket....

Interesting...

Incorrect.

If the speed limit is 70 and you are doing 45, then yes, you can be ticketed as you may possibly be causing an unsafe condition. But if you are doing 55 in a 55 mph zone, you cannot be ticketed.

Like I said, the real problem is common sense is not as common as it should be.

That's incorrect.

If you are hindering traffic and the normal flow, you can be ticketed, regardless of your speed.

I call bullsnot on this. Got a link to prove this?

Yes, this seems rediculous to me as well. I lived in CA for a few years and know that "going with the flow" over the speed limit generally was an accepted practice. But i find it very hard to believe that i could somehow get a ticket for going the speed limit while others were speeding by me. I'd sure like to see proof myself.

As far as your "use common sense" statement regarding whether to enter a park or not after hours,, If you see the sign that has park hours and you happen to be arrive during those closed hours, then there's no common sense decision to be made. You simply need to follow the rules that are posted right in front of your face!

3.8k · February 22, 2008

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

Obey park hours. Why should geocaching be exempt from the rules of the parks we use?

2.5k · February 22, 2008

7.010 Violations and penalties
A person who violates any of the Parks Rules, adopted pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-931, et seq., is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor pursuant to A.R.S. § 11-940. (Res. 2000-3, § 2, 2000)

http://www.pima.gov/nrpr/geninfo/rules.htm#chapt7

Uauauauauaaah! Danger! Danger!

In our region we have a lot of caches at old "open pit mine" areas. Sure there are signs like "Do not enter. Danger area". I tjhink is just an insurance thing - I you get injured you'll have to pay hospital maybe at your own.

Huh...

From the guidelines:

By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location. However, if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived. We also assume that your cache placement complies with all applicable laws. If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived.

The guidelines specifically mention "No Trespassing" signs, and that issues brought to their attention after publication can lead to archival.

Regardless of your tjhoughts on why the signs are there, they are there and shouldn't be ignored.

"But it says it will be archived 'if we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs.' There's no mention of signs in the listing!"

What it says is "If we see a cache description that mentions ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing may be immediately archived." Trespassing signs is being lumped into "any other obvious issues." The last sentance says "If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived." There's that "obvious issue" phrase again. So:

If a Trespassing Sign is brought to their attention, your listing may be immediately archived.

Sounds like there's a bunch of caches that need to be looked at... :laughing:

9.3k · February 22, 2008

Personally, I think whoever's name is first in the logbook is the FTF. It's a pretty simple concept for me. However, I also agree that no cacher should violate state law, county ordinance or city code to get a smiley. So, does the FTF not count? The cache owner has the right to determine if an online log on a cache page is legitimate, but they cannot decide after the fact that cacher XYZ did, or did not, locate the container before anyone else.

Perhaps we need an updated definition for FTF? Something to the effect of, "FTF = The player or team who initially locates a cache, after it is officially published, without breaking any of society's laws". Until that happens, I have to assume that the first person to find the cache is the FTF, regardless of the opinions of the cache owner.

24.7k · February 22, 2008

...If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If I decide that you are 'just passing' then yeah, I'm not going to call you in. If you are driving like a bat out of hell and creating a problem on the highway. Maybe it's not my 'business' or even my 'responsiblity' but I'd be doing the world a favor to dial *ISP and let them know a maniac is on the road and where they can find them.

We are both allowed and morally right to step in and make the world better. That does take some judgment. I don't feel the need to report a couple sitting on a swing set after hours having a talk and holding hands. However there are other things that go on in parks that I can and should report. A cacher doesn't make my personal list. However if I had an understanding with the park manager who told me they didn't want after hours use. That log would be toast.

February 22, 2008

One of the main requests that land managers make to us is that they want guests visiting the parks they manage to follow all posted rules while Geocaching in these parks. Whether the rule in question is "leave all gates as you found them", "no dogs", "dogs must be on leash", "do not leave the established trails", or "follow the posted hours of operation"... they don't care. They just want the rules followed. A very reasonable request in exchange for our continued use of the parks for Geocaching.

That's so sane it's scary. (That means I agree with you.)

In fact, my experience is that the park managers I've worked with apply the rules to everyone of the general public who visits their parks. Geocachers included. I don't know what it is that makes some folks think geocachers in general have some sort of special exemption from the rules established by the parks.

8.9k · February 22, 2008

One of the main requests that land managers make to us is that they want guests visiting the parks they manage to follow all posted rules while Geocaching in these parks. Whether the rule in question is "leave all gates as you found them", "no dogs", "dogs must be on leash", "do not leave the established trails", or "follow the posted hours of operation"... they don't care. They just want the rules followed. A very reasonable request in exchange for our continued use of the parks for Geocaching.

That's so sane it's scary. (That means I agree with you.)

In fact, my experience is that the park managers I've worked with apply the rules to everyone of the general public who visits their parks. Geocachers included. I don't know what it is that makes some folks think geocachers in general have some sort of special exemption from the rules established by the parks.

It's that "entitlement attitude" that does this...some think they can do whatever wherever and whenever they please!

2.2k · February 22, 2008

We would step just about wherever our GPS'r points us.

Which could also be "off a cliff" or "in front of a bus". I can't believe that people are taking the position that unless the cache owner tells them not to break the law, than it's a free-for-all!

In most places, ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense.

Yes, I do live near a park that specifically tells all visitors that hikers are not to leave the marked paths... and they mean it. And the caches placed in that park are placed in such a way that... surprise... no one need leave the path.

Sucks to know that there are folks out there willing to get Geocaching banned from some parks just so they can get a worthless FTF.

DCC

AMEN!!

I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of geocaches that are placed do not have explicit permission and are placed off trail... And the VAST majority of geocaches that I've hunted do not cause any problems and do not give geocaching a bad name. Maybe your experience has been different?

2.2k · February 22, 2008

...If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If I decide that you are 'just passing' then yeah, I'm not going to call you in. If you are driving like a bat out of hell and creating a problem on the highway. Maybe it's not my 'business' or even my 'responsiblity' but I'd be doing the world a favor to dial *ISP and let them know a maniac is on the road and where they can find them.

We are both allowed and morally right to step in and make the world better. That does take some judgment. I don't feel the need to report a couple sitting on a swing set after hours having a talk and holding hands. However there are other things that go on in parks that I can and should report. A cacher doesn't make my personal list. However if I had an understanding with the park manager who told me they didn't want after hours use. That log would be toast.

Its up to each of us to guage the situation and do what we feel is prudent for the specific situation. An owner can make whatever rules they want, true, but at some point, the cache can longer be a traditional cache and must be listed as "Unknown" because of the special requirements.. Might make for an interesting debate to discuss where that line is at.

1k · February 22, 2008

After the third find a FTF is up for grabs again and the next person after that gets one too. Then the next gets a STF again.

Actually there's a local cache that allowes everyone to claim a FTF as part of the rules of their cache is to move the cache each time you find it. That way it's always in a new spot so the next person gets a FTF, too. Looks like it went missing but the theme is pretty unique... F.T.F. Sun City Center GC15GQG

2.2k · February 22, 2008

After the third find a FTF is up for grabs again and the next person after that gets one too. Then the next gets a STF again.
Actually there's a local cache that allowes everyone to claim a FTF as part of the rules of their cache is to move the cache each time you find it. That way it's always in a new spot so the next person gets a FTF, too. Looks like it went missing but the theme is pretty unique... F.T.F. Sun City Center GC15GQG

Seems to me a cache like that would be against the guidelines and wouldn't be approved. It seems to me that you are advocating a cache that is against the current guidelines. Can you please justify how you are "for" the cache owner to enforce rules, but are seemingly advocating a cache that is against the rules.. I'm confused.

Edited February 22, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

8.9k · February 22, 2008

...If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If I decide that you are 'just passing' then yeah, I'm not going to call you in. If you are driving like a bat out of hell and creating a problem on the highway. Maybe it's not my 'business' or even my 'responsiblity' but I'd be doing the world a favor to dial *ISP and let them know a maniac is on the road and where they can find them.

We are both allowed and morally right to step in and make the world better. That does take some judgment. I don't feel the need to report a couple sitting on a swing set after hours having a talk and holding hands. However there are other things that go on in parks that I can and should report. A cacher doesn't make my personal list. However if I had an understanding with the park manager who told me they didn't want after hours use. That log would be toast.

Its up to each of us to guage the situation and do what we feel is prudent for the specific situation. An owner can make whatever rules they want, true, but at some point, the cache can longer be a traditional cache and must be listed as "Unknown" because of the special requirements.. Might make for an interesting debate to discuss where that line is at.

Yeah, I suppose ANY cache which requires you to "obey all laws and/or ordinances" should be ALRs...

2.2k · February 22, 2008

Yeah, I suppose ANY cache which requires you to "obey all laws and/or ordinances" should be ALRs...

I didn't say that! Sheeesh I do understand the distinction. I just said I thought it would be an interesting conversation to have.

6.1k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

Edited February 22, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

2.2k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

Edited February 22, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

February 22, 2008

I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of geocaches that are placed do not have explicit permission and are placed off trail... And the VAST majority of geocaches that I've hunted do not cause any problems and do not give geocaching a bad name. Maybe your experience has been different?

But being off trail itself isn't a problem, unless the park requests it. I mentioned one in specific but many parks in our area let you wander wherever you want (lots of them have free grazing cows... compared to that, geocachers are nothing )

As for the "permission" thing... that could be a topic of it's own!

And you're right, most caches have never nor will ever cause a problem (my experience as well) but it only takes one overly zealous park ranger/land manager to really mess things up!

DCC

February 22, 2008

After the third find a FTF is up for grabs again and the next person after that gets one too. Then the next gets a STF again.
Actually there's a local cache that allowes everyone to claim a FTF as part of the rules of their cache is to move the cache each time you find it. That way it's always in a new spot so the next person gets a FTF, too. Looks like it went missing but the theme is pretty unique... F.T.F. Sun City Center GC15GQG

I thought you were talking about a true "moving cache"... this one is kinda different. I also love the humor and the "logging requirements".

This one is kind of unique in that the "movement" is limited by the item to which it is attached. The coordinates need never change because at it's farthest movement, it probably never exceeds the +/- of your average posted coordinates.

The reviewer used smileys in his published note!

Love it!

DCC

8.9k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

I'll worry about another cacher's driving when it affects me...like trespassing to get one of my caches would!

2.2k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

I'll worry about another cacher's driving when it affects me...like trespassing to get one of my caches would!

So if the police ask the speeder, "Why were you speeding".. The speeder responds, "Because I want to get FTF on a geocache officer".. That wouldn't be essentially the same as telling the officer, "I'm in the park to get the FTF officer"...

Whats the difference?

8.9k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

I'll worry about another cacher's driving when it affects me...like trespassing to get one of my caches would!

So if the police ask the speeder, "Why were you speeding".. The speeder responds, "Because I want to get FTF on a geocache officer".. That wouldn't be essentially the same as telling the officer, "I'm in the park to get the FTF officer"...

Whats the difference?

The difference being the landowner wouldn't have someone trespassing on their property after hours.

2.2k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

I'll worry about another cacher's driving when it affects me...like trespassing to get one of my caches would!

So if the police ask the speeder, "Why were you speeding".. The speeder responds, "Because I want to get FTF on a geocache officer".. That wouldn't be essentially the same as telling the officer, "I'm in the park to get the FTF officer"...

Whats the difference?

The difference being the landowner wouldn't have someone trespassing on their property after hours.

That was a complete non-answer. They are both crimes and they both can tarnish the reputation of geocaching.. What's the difference?

EDIT: To clarify, your concern with trespassing was that it would tarnish your reputation as a cache placer if people hunting your cache were to trespass. Please make the distinction:

Q: Why were you speeding? A: Geocaching

Q: Why were you trespassing? A: Geocaching

Q: Why did you assault your significant other? A: Geocaching

Q: Why did you blow up the building? A: Didn't get my cache approved

There's a lot of policing you'd need to do to cover your bases to ensure that your reputation stays squeeky clean

Edited February 22, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

8.9k · February 22, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

I'll worry about another cacher's driving when it affects me...like trespassing to get one of my caches would!

So if the police ask the speeder, "Why were you speeding".. The speeder responds, "Because I want to get FTF on a geocache officer".. That wouldn't be essentially the same as telling the officer, "I'm in the park to get the FTF officer"...

Whats the difference?

The difference being the landowner wouldn't have someone trespassing on their property after hours.

That was a complete non-answer. They are both crimes and they both can tarnish the reputation of geocaching.. What's the difference?

As I said...and I think you understand this as it really isn't that hard...it doesn't affect the landowner thus not endangering my privilege to place hides on their property. Driving is ON YOU until it affects me and my privilege to place hides!

4.2k · February 22, 2008

I will read through the entire thread shortly (I just came across this thread) but in response to the OP -

Good for the cache owner. I support that 100%.

2.2k · February 22, 2008

As I said...and I think you understand this as it really isn't that hard...it doesn't affect the landowner thus not endangering my privilege to place hides on their property. Driving is ON YOU until it affects me and my privilege to place hides!

Ok, then you can explain how the police coming to the park and arresting me for trespassing has an affect on the landowner? (unless the land owner is the one to call the police, but this is unlikely) Any more than ticketing me 1 block away for speeding?

9.3k · February 23, 2008

Ok, then you can explain how the police coming to the park and arresting me for trespassing has an affect on the landowner?

The only effect I can think of, is that the property owner may have to testify in court at some later date, telling the Judge that the cacher was not allowed on their property at that particular time. In the case of public properties, it would be the senior land manager who would need to testify. In 20 some odd years of law enforcement, (and a few gazillion trespassing arrests), I've only had to go to trial on a handful of them, as most arrestees accept a plea bargain before it ever goes to trial. A minimum risk, at best.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Clan Riffster

8.9k · February 23, 2008

As I said...and I think you understand this as it really isn't that hard...it doesn't affect the landowner thus not endangering my privilege to place hides on their property. Driving is ON YOU until it affects me and my privilege to place hides!

Ok, then you can explain how the police coming to the park and arresting me for trespassing has an affect on the landowner? (unless the land owner is the one to call the police, but this is unlikely) Any more than ticketing me 1 block away for speeding?

Assuming the landowner would need to be contacted to press any charges (that's how I understand it to work around here, could be different elsewhere??), I'd say they'd be notified pretty quickly. My understanding in this instance is that the OP bragged of his after hours adventure and was called out for it...had the landowner had that cache on watch, the landowner would have known instantly...

You don't think landowners do this?? I know the ones I work with do as I showed them where to go and how to set up the watchlists! I want to have a good relationship with my landowners, their my friends as well!! I understand other landowners do this as well.

February 23, 2008

Q: Why did you blow up the building? A: Didn't get my cache approved

EXPOSED!! The real reason bomb squads go after Geocaches!!

2.2k · February 23, 2008

As I said...and I think you understand this as it really isn't that hard...it doesn't affect the landowner thus not endangering my privilege to place hides on their property. Driving is ON YOU until it affects me and my privilege to place hides!

Ok, then you can explain how the police coming to the park and arresting me for trespassing has an affect on the landowner? (unless the land owner is the one to call the police, but this is unlikely) Any more than ticketing me 1 block away for speeding?

Assuming the landowner would need to be contacted to press any charges (that's how I understand it to work around here, could be different elsewhere??), I'd say they'd be notified pretty quickly. My understanding in this instance is that the OP bragged of his after hours adventure and was called out for it...had the landowner had that cache on watch, the landowner would have known instantly...

You don't think landowners do this?? I know the ones I work with do as I showed them where to go and how to set up the watchlists! I want to have a good relationship with my landowners, their my friends as well!! I understand other landowners do this as well.

I don't think police wake up land owners in the middle of the night for people that are not abusing a park. I don't think the police would do that after the situation is explained to them, do you? Do you really think the police want to do all that paperwork? They are going to ask you to leave in 99.9% of the cases, unless you give them attitude, which I wouldn't think 99.9% of cachers would do.

(Perhaps that's why I've never had a problem in this area and have never met another cacher who has had a problem in this area, not to say they don't exist, but I think they are very rare)

Edited February 23, 2008 by ReadyOrNot

8.9k · February 23, 2008

As I said...and I think you understand this as it really isn't that hard...it doesn't affect the landowner thus not endangering my privilege to place hides on their property. Driving is ON YOU until it affects me and my privilege to place hides!

Ok, then you can explain how the police coming to the park and arresting me for trespassing has an affect on the landowner? (unless the land owner is the one to call the police, but this is unlikely) Any more than ticketing me 1 block away for speeding?

Assuming the landowner would need to be contacted to press any charges (that's how I understand it to work around here, could be different elsewhere??), I'd say they'd be notified pretty quickly. My understanding in this instance is that the OP bragged of his after hours adventure and was called out for it...had the landowner had that cache on watch, the landowner would have known instantly...

You don't think landowners do this?? I know the ones I work with do as I showed them where to go and how to set up the watchlists! I want to have a good relationship with my landowners, their my friends as well!! I understand other landowners do this as well.

I don't think police wake up land owners in the middle of the night for people that are not abusing a park. I don't think the police would do that after the situation is explained to them, do you? Do you really think the police want to do all that paperwork? They are going to ask you to leave in 99.9% of the cases, unless you give them attitude, which I wouldn't think 99.9% of cachers would do.

(Perhaps that's why I've never had a problem in this area and have never met another cacher who has had a problem in this area, not to say they don't exist, but I think they are very rare)

Again, my understanding is that the landowners ARE called when reports are made. Reports are made regardless of whether you are arrested or not, the landowner is still called and it is then up to them and the prosecutors...this is what I understand happens in this area, could be different elsewhere.

And again, the cacher bragged of their actions which is exactly the reason for the deletion...

February 23, 2008

Just to play devil's advocate: what if the finder was doing another no-no. If he had an unleash dog, or was drink a beer while caching, or if he peed in a bush be will looking for a cache.

2.2k · February 23, 2008

Just to play devil's advocate: what if the finder was doing another no-no. If he had an unleash dog, or was drink a beer while caching, or if he peed in a bush be will looking for a cache.

That's an awful lot of policing. It might be easier just to set-up camp near the cache location and keep an eye on the cache at all times of the day or night. Heavens knows what could happen otherwise

8k · February 23, 2008

or if he peed in a bush be will looking for a cache.

I hope he found the cache before he peed.

It occurs to me that a Closed a Dusk sign might not always mean it is illegal to be in the park after dark. Sometimes the park department simply want to keep people (especially vagrants) from camping in the park, or keep people from using the empty park for activities better suited to a motel room. Instead of waiting for people to be caught breaking these laws, the Closed at Dusk is just there to allow LE to chase you out of the park if they suspect you're there for some otherwise illegal purpose. It has already been mentioned that many parks will not stop you from walking your dog or taking a shortcut through the park even though they have a sign posted.

The Closed at Dusk sign may also be a way for the city to limit its liability. What if you trip over a sprinkler in the dark and injure yourself? In the daylight, this is less likely to happen since you can see where you're going and if you do fall some is likely to see you to get help if you are unable.

The city closed the trail this cache is on do to dangerous conditions. Later they removed the barricades and put up a permanent sign saying "Dangerous conditions, Trail Closed, No Patrons Beyond this Point". The last person to find it called the park to inquire about the sign an was told that the "trail closed" signs were put up because someone was injured on the trail and the city wanted to limit its liability should that happen again, and that no one would be prevented from using the trail.

It could very well be that the hider of the cache in the OP knows that the Park Closed signs are enforced there. There may even be an ordinance quoted. Or he may just be paranoid. When I went to look for the cache on the closed trail I stopped at the sign, but now that I've seen the post and since its by a cacher who I believe, I'll probably go find that cache.

5.7k · February 23, 2008

or if he peed in a bush be will looking for a cache.

I hope he found the cache before he peed.

It occurs to me that a Closed a Dusk sign might not always mean it is illegal to be in the park after dark. Sometimes the park department simply want to keep people (especially vagrants) from camping in the park, or keep people from using the empty park for activities better suited to a motel room. Instead of waiting for people to be caught breaking these laws, the Closed at Dusk is just there to allow LE to chase you out of the park if they suspect you're there for some otherwise illegal purpose. It has already been mentioned that many parks will not stop you from walking your dog or taking a shortcut through the park even though they have a sign posted.

The Closed at Dusk sign may also be a way for the city to limit its liability. What if you trip over a sprinkler in the dark and injure yourself? In the daylight, this is less likely to happen since you can see where you're going and if you do fall some is likely to see you to get help if you are unable.

The city closed the trail this cache is on do to dangerous conditions. Later they removed the barricades and put up a permanent sign saying "Dangerous conditions, Trail Closed, No Patrons Beyond this Point". The last person to find it called the park to inquire about the sign an was told that the "trail closed" signs were put up because someone was injured on the trail and the city wanted to limit its liability should that happen again, and that no one would be prevented from using the trail.

It could very well be that the hider of the cache in the OP knows that the Park Closed signs are enforced there. There may even be an ordinance quoted. Or he may just be paranoid. When I went to look for the cache on the closed trail I stopped at the sign, but now that I've seen the post and since its by a cacher who I believe, I'll probably go find that cache.

That's quite a story there. Is there more that you could share?

2.2k · February 23, 2008

but now that I've seen the post and since its by a cacher who I believe, I'll probably go find that cache.

Heavens no! You can't be trusted to use your own judgment!

February 23, 2008

I don't think police wake up land owners in the middle of the night for people that are not abusing a park. I don't think the police would do that after the situation is explained to them, do you? Do you really think the police want to do all that paperwork? They are going to ask you to leave in 99.9% of the cases, unless you give them attitude, which I wouldn't think 99.9% of cachers would do.

(Perhaps that's why I've never had a problem in this area and have never met another cacher who has had a problem in this area, not to say they don't exist, but I think they are very rare)

Actually, according to a good friend of mine (who works in Law Enforcement) if the Police get a trespassing call that they have to go investigate in the middle of the night, he said it as good as guaranteed that the officer will contact the property owner to advise them of "activity" on their property (probably the next morning).

DCC

6.1k · February 23, 2008

Have you ever gotten in the fast lane to pass someone and have some "private citizen" decide for you that you are going to fast, so they get in the fast lane going 55. That would be a better example here. If I decide that I need to exceed the speed limit in order to pass someone, that's my decision to make. If I get pulled over for doing it, then I have to suffer the consequences. But its not the business nor responsibility of the person I'm passing to stop me from doing it.

It's not the business nor reponsibility of the cache owner to enforce park rules.

If you get pulled over for speeding - it's completely on you.

Now that would change a bit, if you told the officer "it's OK, I'm geocaching". In fact, if an officer ran into a lot of people who used geocaching as an excuse for speeding (as an example) for what they were doing, it obviously would not look good for the geocachers that never speed. (getting pulled over for having a GC label on the car- for example)

The cache owner only deleted the find. He did not use physical force to try to stop the person from entering the park. (such as the guy driving slowly in the left lane in your example). I could compare deleting the find to someone giving a "one finger wave", but it is hardly anything close to that, as the ending turned out amicable.

If you are committing a crime, does it really matter what excuse you use for doing it? If I'm speeding, does it matter whether I'm geocaching, late for work, late for the airport, etc.? The responsibility falls squarely in the lap of the person committing the crime.

If the cacher gets a ticket speeding on the way to the cache for a FTF, should the cache owner be responsible for deleting his log? Of course not. If he found out about it, I suppose he has a right to do that, but wouldn't you consider that overstepping one's bounds a little bit? What if he gets in a fight with his wife over leaving to go get the FTF, assaults her, nabs the FTF, then gets arrested when arriving back from the cache. Should the owner delete the log? Where do you draw the line?

It does matter what excuse you use if you commit a crime. In fact, using an excuse implies to the officer that you are trying to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Whether the cache owner is "responsible" for deleting the find is not an issue. Myself, I would not have deleted the find if I was the CO. But if the CO wants to delete someones find for that, I dont think there is a thing wrong with it.

Edited February 23, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

2.2k · February 23, 2008

I don't think police wake up land owners in the middle of the night for people that are not abusing a park. I don't think the police would do that after the situation is explained to them, do you? Do you really think the police want to do all that paperwork? They are going to ask you to leave in 99.9% of the cases, unless you give them attitude, which I wouldn't think 99.9% of cachers would do.

(Perhaps that's why I've never had a problem in this area and have never met another cacher who has had a problem in this area, not to say they don't exist, but I think they are very rare)

Actually, according to a good friend of mine (who works in Law Enforcement) if the Police get a trespassing call that they have to go investigate in the middle of the night, he said it as good as guaranteed that the officer will contact the property owner to advise them of "activity" on their property (probably the next morning).

DCC

Things must be different around these parts. An officer might inquire as to what it is i'm up to, but i've never encountered nor heard of an encounter in a public park that resulted in trespassing or the threat of a trespassing charge. I'm sure it's happened. I'm sure if you were a big enough jerk, you could probably get a ticket for going 1mph over the speed limit, but generally speaking, if you are minding your own business and not causing any problems, then there is no problem. If there's houses all around the park and it's 2am, then perhaps common sense and judgment should kick in and say, "Maybe I shouldn't be here at night"...

I'm just not comfortable calling this one black and white (and I've got my fair share of issues that I do see as black and white)

2.3k · February 23, 2008

but now that I've seen the post and since its by a cacher who I believe, I'll probably go find that cache.

Heavens no! You can't be trusted to use your own judgment!

Sure you can. Just realize the owner may delete your smiley if you admit to disregarding park hours in your log.

February 23, 2008

Let's not forget how much fun geocaching is. It is a game after all and breaking park rules could result in losing the ability to hide caches in parks. Please, please follow the rules, especially in parks.

February 23, 2008

Things must be different around these parts. An officer might inquire as to what it is i'm up to, but i've never encountered nor heard of an encounter in a public park that resulted in trespassing or the threat of a trespassing charge. I'm sure it's happened. I'm sure if you were a big enough jerk, you could probably get a ticket for going 1mph over the speed limit, but generally speaking, if you are minding your own business and not causing any problems, then there is no problem. If there's houses all around the park and it's 2am, then perhaps common sense and judgment should kick in and say, "Maybe I shouldn't be here at night"...

I'm just not comfortable calling this one black and white (and I've got my fair share of issues that I do see as black and white)

True, it may very well be dependent on where you're located. I'm in the SF Bay Area and much of our "open space" is squeezed between housing developments. I wasn't thinking about that little "town square" park that many places have... in that case I can't see the police caring, but maybe just telling you to "get on home".

DCC

8.9k · February 23, 2008

I don't think police wake up land owners in the middle of the night for people that are not abusing a park. I don't think the police would do that after the situation is explained to them, do you? Do you really think the police want to do all that paperwork? They are going to ask you to leave in 99.9% of the cases, unless you give them attitude, which I wouldn't think 99.9% of cachers would do.

(Perhaps that's why I've never had a problem in this area and have never met another cacher who has had a problem in this area, not to say they don't exist, but I think they are very rare)

Actually, according to a good friend of mine (who works in Law Enforcement) if the Police get a trespassing call that they have to go investigate in the middle of the night, he said it as good as guaranteed that the officer will contact the property owner to advise them of "activity" on their property (probably the next morning).

DCC

Pretty much what I was told too. I live in a smallish town where the LEO have a fair amount of free time as well, so that MIGHT have something to do with it!!

Toz hit another point I was going to make...the insurance part. This is another reason the PTB don't like after hours activities in their parks and I've been told this by BOTH park managers I work closely with! Parks can only afford so much liability insurance, usually limited to daylight hours. If someone were to get injured and (heaven forbid) needed help to get to the hospital, the landowner is going to know. Now, if this same person has his geocaching equipment on him/her, the landowner will likely be able to figure out the reason for the visit (I know my friends at my favorite parks here would...this will obviously be different in other situations). So, being arrested or stopped by the LEO isn't the ONLY reason the landowner could be advised of activity!

The insurance and liability issue is why I can't place any caches at our business (golf course)...my dad is way to worried about lawsuits...some property owners are the same. Some, after giving permission, even need assurance their park hours WILL be adhered to!

Oh yeah...I had my morning coffee with my LEO friend and asked her about the speed limit thing. She laughed first, then assured me that going the sped limit isn't a crime, going too far below or above the limit is. She's also the one who said that 90% of all calls made about after hours use of parks or cemeteries ARE written up in a report and ANY time a report is made, the landowner is advised! She said the other 10% is usually people had already left the property or a stray dog owner trying to find said animal!

February 23, 2008

Or a stray dog owner trying to find said animal!

Officer, that's my story and I'm sticking to it (said as I'm trying desperately trying trying to hide my GPSr).

Rod- walk away from the keyboard, get in your vehicle, and go to the Winter Social. I'll see you there.

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

P.S. And who was it that asked who Rod is?

3.9k · February 23, 2008

The owner of GC19GW9 deleted a first to find log because the "first to finder" made the find during a local park's "closed" hours. I think this is bull. Am I wrong here? Are cache owners police officers now?

You are introducing confusion into the issue. The issue has nothing to do with cache owners acting as "police officers" and has everything do to with caring for the future of the sport and with being conscientious cache owners. So, my answer to your question is: Congratulations to the cache owner in question, and more power to them!

As for you, well, your post showed your true colors and your leanings! You seem to be a veteran member of the Entitlement League. No more need be said! :blink:

FTF deleted--Not found during park hours!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment