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The surprisingly best reason to try a DeLorme PN-20

rfc143

By rfc143
in GPS technology and devices

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rfc143

rfc143

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm not a seasoned geocacher (yet). So far, my primary need for any kind of GPS revolves around out back mountain biking. A good friend of mine is into geocaching and got me started, so I knew I needed a really good GPS that would "do it all", to replace my ancient Etrex. I tried most all of the high end units from Garmin and Magellan; One of the things that held me back was the screen brightness in medium low light conditions. Bright sun: fine. Darkness: fine. it was in that middle zone that was the problem. So was it the really bright TFT screen of the PN-20 that was the Big thing that made me feel I made the right decision?

 

Nope.

 

Right behind screen brightness and precision, came the whole imagery issue. I really wanted vector topo maps, as well as the original USGS quads, because where I live, many of the buildings and old structures shown on those quads are still there. I wanted Aerial photography similar to if not better than that "provided" by Google Earth. I wanted to be able to easily edit my own trails and tracks, superimpose them on the imagery all prior to heading out into the woods. For geocaching, from what I've learned so far, 90 percent of the challenge (and work) happens before you ever leave the house (of course 90% of the fun happens after that).

 

I learned that you can pretty much do most of this with any platform (Garmin, Magellan), but looking at the whole picture, only DeLorme "put it all together" with the Topo USA and Xmap software, the "Netlink" map server and the PN-20 itself. They made it really really easy. So was it the imagery integration that turned out to be the thing that made me confident I made the right decision?

 

Played a role, but that wasn't it.

 

Finally, ergonomics was a really important factor. I often bike when it's frozen outside and gloves are critical. I took my gloves with me to stores and tried operating the Garmins and Magellans with them on, and found it nearly impossible. The PN-20 button structure--both the placement and raised design--makes it a joy to use with pretty bulky gloves on. But was that the "Big Thing" that made me feel like I chose the right unit?

 

Can't really say it was.

 

So what was it? In a word: the DeLorme Company. (OK. that was three words.)

 

I got the thing on Christmas day. By that evening I was deep into selecting the imagery I could download from them with the $100 certificate included with the units. The way this works is that from within the Topo USA 7 software, you click a link and it more or less takes you to a "map store" where you select the area you want and the type of imagery (Satellite, Aerial, Topo, Marine, etc.).

 

Well the process failed miserably. I couldn't make contact with the server. Repeated tries met with varying success, only to later find that some of the imagery was messed up. I burned through the $100 with repeated tries that only started coming through hours later (all at once). It was a disaster.

 

After re-adjusting my expectations about the whole thing, I called them the day after Christmas. Not expecting any quick action, I pulled out "Gone with the Wind" to read until I got on with a CSR, only to find myself connected with a tech savvy CSR and explained the problem. I suspected (correctly, I later found out) that their servers were hammered big time on Christmas (just as Apple's were, lol--but that's another story).

 

After determining what the problem was with the downloads, and several attempts to re-download them, the CSR went to the effort to package up my downloads and email me zipped files with them. After all was said and done, and I got my original downloads, He offered another $100 certificate "for my trouble"! I was very impressed.

 

Then, during the early use of the unit, I suspected a bad Li-Ion battery. The charging did not seem right. In an effort to troubleshoot the various chargers and cables that came with the unit and "power pack", I decided to call the Company again. Got another tech savvy CSR at the company in Maine with 3 minutes. Before I could even get completely through explaining everything I'd tried, the CSR decided to send not only another battery, but another charger, and cable as well. Problem solved. Stuff showed up the next day.

 

What surprised me most was that this small company (much smaller than Garmin or Magellan) has done not only such a credible job putting together a great piece of hardware, but done so with such great integration with their software and imagery products, and managed to provide such great customer service--all without putting themselves out of business. I'm very impressed.

 

So, I'm really happy with the company I chose (even though I didn't know it at the time I chose the PN-20).

Edited by rfc143
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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted

...So, I'm really happy with the company I chose (even though I didn't know it at the time I chose the PN-20).

 

Delorme has gone above and beyond to make their GPS work well. They missed the boat a bit (why have expensive arial maps when they are free on the net?) but can get things right if they listen. They do seem to listen and I'd have to rate theri product as the most innovative new GPS in a long time.

 

If they pay attention to Garmins success match the good and keep their edge in the arial maps etc. they can put thier GPSs on the map.

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anethema

anethema

Posted
Posted

Just goes to show the research is right, customers end up more satisfied after being helped well with a bad experience, than a customer who has had a good experience right from the start!

 

I totally agree though, I just got my PN-20 and have been making my own maps with XMap editor. I can do anything and it looks godlike on the PN-20. Any bit of data I can find, and 2 button presses and I'm looking at aerial imagery. I really couldn't be happier.

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jimfish

jimfish

Posted
Posted

I have been dealing with Delorme on some software issue and each time they far exceed expectation. I haven't had the opportunity to use a PN-20 yet but look forward to it. If it is anything like their software and customer service it should be one heck of a unit.

 

Had a recent issue with some Mapsource software and it took numerous emails and several days to fix what turned out to be a simple matter. They responded ok but not like Delorme..

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raebear

+raebear

Posted
Posted

Excellent review!! And first post!

You may have sold a unit or two for them just by expressing you thoughts..

 

You are a salesman right? Just kidding.. LOL

Welcome to the forum!!

 

If he's not he should be :D that post may have just pushed me over the edge toward the PN 20

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rfc143

rfc143

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

If he's not he should be :D that post may have just pushed me over the edge toward the PN 20

 

Well, I'm not, actually, but I do like well designed hardware and software systems, and I know that no matter what it is you buy in life, whether it be a computer or a set of kitchen knives, if something goes wrong, you have to call the company. And when I do, I really appreciate great customer support (Ever try Motorola custormer service to find out why your 6 year old Nimh battery wont charge anymore? Their support is legendary.) I'm probably shooting myself in the foot, because if too many people move to the PN-20 too fast, they'll get overloaded and when we call for help we'll be talking to "My name is Chitveera (but you can call me Charlie); how can I be helping you today?", from Mumbai. Oh well. :P

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jmedlock

jmedlock

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't geocache, but do hike quite a bit and am considering either the PN-20 or Colorado 400t.

 

I was browsing the DeLorme Beta 1.4 forum and saw the following question that no one has answered:

 

 

I have had no problems with the 1.4 Beta.
My only concern is the signal acquisition time and the overall processor speed, which has been brought up many times before. Is there anything we can do for that. It's a great unit, but OMG is it slow on redraws and most other function, even page switches.
I only have the necessary regionals turned on. Any help, advise would be appreciated. How about a chip update, we can install ourselves.

 

I am wondering if anyone can answer the question about performance? It sounds like this may be the weakest point on the PN-20, and it doesn't look like the 1.4 firmware addresses this concern?

 

Regards

Edited by jmedlock
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Marky

+Marky

Posted
Posted
I am wondering if anyone can answer the question about performance? It sounds like this may be the weakest point on the PN-20, and it doesn't look like the 1.4 firmware addresses this concern?

Software/Firmware optimization will only get you so far, and if the processor is to underpowered for the task at hand then the only solution is to upgrade the hardware, which basically means a new unit. I don't know the specs on the PN-20 or how its processor stacks up against the competition but performance is certainly a consideration when deciding on which unit is best for you. If possible, being able to demo a unit under your normal use conditions would be optimal.

 

I've seen posted that the 1.4 firmware did improve the performance some, but since I don't have a PN-20, I can't comment on that.

 

--Marky

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texbaz

+texbaz

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't geocache, but do hike quite a bit and am considering either the PN-20 or Colorado 400t.

 

I was browsing the DeLorme Beta 1.4 forum and saw the following question that no one has answered:

 

 

I have had no problems with the 1.4 Beta.
My only concern is the signal acquisition time and the overall processor speed, which has been brought up many times before. Is there anything we can do for that. It's a great unit, but OMG is it slow on redraws and most other function, even page switches.
I only have the necessary regionals turned on. Any help, advise would be appreciated. How about a chip update, we can install ourselves.

 

I am wondering if anyone can answer the question about performance? It sounds like this may be the weakest point on the PN-20, and it doesn't look like the 1.4 firmware addresses this concern?

 

Regards

 

Sorry I can't tell you why but, I have read about slow lumbering processor speed, in several threads on the Delorme forums, and that is probably the only reason I have not jumped on a PN-20. I was hoping the Colorado would have had a much smoother introduction.

Edited by texbaz
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embra

+embra

Posted
Posted

"Slow" is in the eye of the beholder. Those of us who like the PN-20 find redraws and most processing tasks to be within our tolerances. When I get home tonight I'll try to see what kind of times are happening on my 1.4 beta firmware so we can take it a little more out of the subjective. But I know--especially early on in the PN-20 release--that there were several people who returned the PN-20 because they found it to be unacceptably slow on routine performance processes.

 

I found there were some things I could do to reduce the load. For example, using track up on the map display caused a screen redraw whenever the trail I was walking turned 10 degrees. Changing to North up reduced redraws considerably, and I found the few seconds it took to do a redraw when the cursor reached the edge of the display was tolerable. Roads aren't so twisty, so it is less of an issue on drives.

 

Early firmware releases required a long time to sort a large (700+) waypoint file, so I was much happier limiting myself to a file holding only a couple hundred waypoints at a time. The recent firmwares seem to be much more efficient at sorting, and so I now can allow myself a large file. Searches and routing was also bad slow in early firmwares; much better in the current release. I don't have a problem with signal acquisition (I'll try to get some objective time measures for that, too).

 

So yeah, it is a little slower. I like the maps and imagery so much that I tolerate the performance tradeoffs...I prefer them to the crisp operation but poor maps of the Explorist (for example).

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Team CowboyPapa

+Team CowboyPapa

Posted
Posted

I don't geocache, but do hike quite a bit and am considering either the PN-20 or Colorado 400t.

 

I was browsing the DeLorme Beta 1.4 forum and saw the following question that no one has answered:

 

 

I have had no problems with the 1.4 Beta.
My only concern is the signal acquisition time and the overall processor speed, which has been brought up many times before. Is there anything we can do for that. It's a great unit, but OMG is it slow on redraws and most other function, even page switches.
I only have the necessary regionals turned on. Any help, advise would be appreciated. How about a chip update, we can install ourselves.

 

I am wondering if anyone can answer the question about performance? It sounds like this may be the weakest point on the PN-20, and it doesn't look like the 1.4 firmware addresses this concern?

 

Regards

Yes, I can give you a part of an answer. Most of those comments of that ilk come from those who expect it to perform as a stuck on the windshield Tom Tom type. Realize that the PN-20 was designed as an outdoor unit for hikers, backpackers, 4WD explorers, etc. Consider its highway, road routing capabilities to have been 2nd in design priorities and therefore whatever that capability is, it's a bonus.

 

As one who also has a factory installed, in-dash GPSr/NAV unit, I bought my PN-20 for back country, off-pavement use and not freeway use. I agree with those who want to look at it while going 70mph on the freeway that the redraw could be faster. OTOH, while geocaching, walking or going down a 4WD two track at 5mph, I've not been held up by the redraw rate. :D

 

It is the consensus among those who are familiar with the PN-20 and other outdoor/handheld types, that the PN-20 is superior in accommodating the types of 3D topo maps (both DeLorme's and the USGS 3DTQs) that are popular with hikers and backpackers.

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rfc143

rfc143

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I wish they had maps for Canada but i realize we are such a small country up here, oh well, such is life.

 

They don't have them, but if you get X-map (half price if you buy a PN-20), you can import just about any map you have and bring it into the PN-20. That includes Canada too, and I think some would argue with you about it being a small place, eh?! :unsure:

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bpcooper14

+bpcooper14

Posted
Posted

Ok, I didn't want to start a whole new thread so I figured I would jump on here and see if anyone has heard anything through the rumor mill from delorme about a next generation to the pn20? Or are they content with the hardware and just continuing to improve on the software through firmware updates? The more i read, the more I might try and convince myself sometime over the next few months to shell out the money. (hmmmmm, tax refund maybe?) lol

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benjamin921

+benjamin921

Posted
Posted

Haven't heard anything (not that I would) but I would expect/hope DeLorme to have a good working (which they do now) GPSr and very stable software before pumping something else out right away. With the 1.4 firmware update, the PN-20 just got better and thus closer to a super stable software version (is that industry term? :unsure:) to put into the next GPSr. I would also expect DeLorme to put a few more pony's under the hood in the next one.

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rfc143

rfc143

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Are their any reviews of the PN-20 with current software/firmware updates. The reviews I had read, concerning the so called slow map redraw are from early reviews.

 

There are a few reviews from users over at the DeLorme forums but I can tell you that 1.4 seems plenty fast to me. Many who have reported slow refresh rate were using the PN-20 with the screen set to "ahead-UP" which would repaint the screen whenever the user changed direction by 10 degrees or more.

 

By setting the screen to North-UP, it refreshes much less. Second, most of the issues were with USGS quads or aerial photography set on close zoom levels, and the complaints were more common when driving in a car using such settings.

 

So, in effect, the complaints were really in a worst case scenario: Auto use, High zoom levels, Big raster files.

 

For normal vehicle navigation, you can turn off the imagery and get the same maps as you do on any much less capable GPS--the screen refreshes are very fast--I'd say almost lightning fast; certainly fast enough for vehicle navigation.

 

But the real sweet spot for the PN-20 is actually Hiking and Biking. At these slower speeds, you can load the unit up with all the imagery you can throw at it, and the screen refreshes are plenty fast. It takes maybe a second or two every 1-5 minutes depending on how fast you're going and what zoom level you're at.

 

Honestly, with 1.4, I don't know what all this fuss is about, unless Garmins and Magellans are somehow way faster and people are just comparing the PN-20 to them. It's been quite a while since I used my ETrex, but I don't recall it being any faster at all than the PN-20.

 

Hope this helps.

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anethema

anethema

Posted
Posted

The PN-20 is a fantastic unit for off-road hiking, and CAN be used to route you to your trail, etc.

 

That said, I would NOT buy the unit if my main purpose was car navigation. There are garmin vehicle units which are much cheaper and much more capable (get a cheap nuvi 250w)

 

For offroad however, I have seen the TopoUSA7 maps they are VERY nice. Oh high detail they do like 50-100ft contours, and have nice detail.

 

I have been making my own custom maps and imagery with X-Map editor and have made some very nice stuff...

 

The refresh is more than acceptable at walking/skidooing speed. I have no complaints at all in fact. Changing from imagery to maps or vise versa is 2 button presses (menu, enter)

 

I would not hesitate to recommend this unit for any geocacher or dirtbiker or offroader or hiker of any kind.

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texbaz

+texbaz

Posted
Posted

rfc143, anethema, thanks, This type info helps me to understand why other users considered the PN-20 slow. I have an aging GPSIII+ as a handheld and a Nuvi360 in the Vehicle. I really just want a handheld for caching, cycling, and Hunting on a very limited area, and just general fun. Nothing major but I like the capabilities that are ofered from Delorme on PN-20 and what mapping software comes with it. I have not had a chance to put my hands on one to examine the build quality seems like they are built fairly robust from the older reviews. I know my old GPSIII+ is fairly sturdy and as far as an outdoor handheld it has survived drops,dunks, with good results. Hopefully this weekend I can get to Cabelas to look at one.

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SpankySCRC

+SpankySCRC

Posted
Posted (edited)
rfc143, anethema, thanks, This type info helps me to understand why other users considered the PN-20 slow. I have an aging GPSIII+ as a handheld and a Nuvi360 in the Vehicle. I really just want a handheld for caching, cycling, and Hunting on a very limited area, and just general fun. Nothing major but I like the capabilities that are ofered from Delorme on PN-20 and what mapping software comes with it. I have not had a chance to put my hands on one to examine the build quality seems like they are built fairly robust from the older reviews. I know my old GPSIII+ is fairly sturdy and as far as an outdoor handheld it has survived drops,dunks, with good results. Hopefully this weekend I can get to Cabelas to look at one.

 

Rugged, Yes, takes abuse well. I consider riding 25K miles in a RAM-MOUNT on the handle bars of my Nomad 1500 to be a lot of abuse to a piece of electronics and the PN-20 has never failed to please.

 

Like other have said, if you are going to use for road routing, works fine but I suggest you do your planning on your desktop/laptop and upload your routes to the PN-20. You will be much happier that way.

Edited by SpankySCRC
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embra

+embra

Posted
Posted

I'll try to get some objective time measures for that, too

The weather/time continua intersected in favorable modes just now, so I've got a few timed observations to offer.

 

Cold boot to 3D signal lock: 41 seconds

Warm boot to lock: 7 second

 

Screen redraws: 2 - 4 seconds at varying zoom levels (depends upon amount of detailed data on screen.) I should note that this is for T7 data; I didn't have other imagery for this location loaded.

 

Waypoint screen display: 5 seconds to populate full page of nearest; 11 seconds to fully sort list of 600 waypoints).

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