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Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?


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"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

- version of The Serenity Prayer, originally by Reinhold Niebuhr

While I can't change the weather, I can possibly change the minds of people taking actions that are detrimental to this game. Rather than sit back and say "There's nothing I can do about it," I am using a certain amount of courage to come forward and make a stand on this issue in the face of a whole bunch of naysayers such as yourself.
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(1/1)

13 Apr 02 Sylvester’s Cabin by Team TnT (GC4C6A)

Oklahoma 12 Dec 07

(1/1)

1 Jul 01 The view of an "Honest Man" by wv-explorers (GCEB2)

District of Columbia 12 Dec 07

(1/1)

18 Mar 03 Spy's Cache by seurat66 (GCD04C)

Virginia 12 Dec 07

(2/1)

6 Jul 02 What in the World Cache? by Ghosthunter (GC6D43)

Maine 12 Dec 07

 

WOW This guy really gets around! These are all virtuals found by one person on the SAME DAY! I enjoyed virtuals but this is ridiculous! The next day this so called "Geocacher" logs more virtuals in Germany. Is this normal? I mean whats the point. :D

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"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

- version of The Serenity Prayer, originally by Reinhold Niebuhr

While I can't change the weather, I can possibly change the minds of people taking actions that are detrimental to this game. Rather than sit back and say "There's nothing I can do about it," I am using a certain amount of courage to come forward and make a stand on this issue in the face of a whole bunch of naysayers such as yourself.

I don't disagree with your desire to control those logs which might be detrimental. Haven’t you been listening? All I’m saying is this: Have the courage to discourage (or delete) the harmful bogus logs you have influence over, the serenity to accept the ones that don’t matter, and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

"Naysayer?" I’m not saying "nay" to changing the minds of people taking actions that are detrimental to this game. What I’m saying "nay" to is whether there is a hobby-wide "degradation" problem, as hypothesized by the OP, in the first place.

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I have been thinking a lot about this thread, and I have come to this realization:

 

There are some who have the confidence to remain individual in their identity, and then there are those whose identity is dependent on that of a group. Some people accordingly consider the merits of an individual’s words and actions to stand alone while others consider the words and actions of any member of any perceived group to apply to the entire group.

 

My principles tend to run toward the individual – individual responsibility, individual rights, individual accountability, etc. Some folks, on the other hand, tend to see rights, needs, entitlements, praiseworthiness and guiltiness as applying only to entire groups of people.

 

I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:

 

"False logs degrade what it means to be a geocacher."

"I won’t be such a proud geocacher then."

"[False logs] bastardize the game."

"False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching."

"These things have ruined the hobby for me."

 

When I observe a bogus log I see it for what it is: A lie. A lie made by an individual. Where I choose to indict only the cacher who posted the bogus log, others choose instead to impeach the entire game.

 

Go figure.

 

I think OJ Simpson is a crook, but I don’t think OJ Simpson’s crimes reflect badly on ALL ex-football players; others see it differently. I think anyone who drives drunk is a dangerous idiot, but I don’t think the mere existence of one idiot drunken driver means that ALL motorists should feel ashamed; some, evidently, disagree.

 

I think logging a smiley on a cache one didn’t find is asinine, but I don’t think the occasional asinine bogus smiley, even when it causes inconvenience, degrades the entire hobby; this thread, however, shows that not everyone shares my viewpoint.

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I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:

 

"False logs degrade what it means to be a geocacher."

"I won’t be such a proud geocacher then."

"[False logs] bastardize the game."

...

"These things have ruined the hobby for me."

Show me where someone has made each of these statements that you set forth. Only one of them ("False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching.") was made, as far as I can remember, although perhaps someone said the game was ruined for them. I'm very interested in seeing where the other statements were made.

 

Brushing such broad strokes across the people you've been arguing against is a fallacy at best.

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I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:

 

"False logs degrade what it means to be a geocacher."

"I won’t be such a proud geocacher then."

"[False logs] bastardize the game."

...

"These things have ruined the hobby for me."

Show me where someone has made each of these statements that you set forth. Only one of them ("False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching.") was made, as far as I can remember, although perhaps someone said the game was ruined for them. I'm very interested in seeing where the other statements were made.

 

Brushing such broad strokes across the people you've been arguing against is a fallacy at best.

I'm not 100% sure where KBI got the quotes since I wasn't with him while he was doing research, so I took a few minutes to search the thread and see if these quotes did exist. It didn't take long to find them.

 

The first three quotes all come from the original post.

The fourth one you quoted comes from post number 15.

 

Well, it HAS been 36 pages ago. :D

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I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:

 

"False logs degrade what it means to be a geocacher."

"I won’t be such a proud geocacher then."

"[False logs] bastardize the game."

...

"These things have ruined the hobby for me."

Show me where someone has made each of these statements that you set forth. Only one of them ("False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching.") was made, as far as I can remember, although perhaps someone said the game was ruined for them. I'm very interested in seeing where the other statements were made.

 

Brushing such broad strokes across the people you've been arguing against is a fallacy at best.

I'm not 100% sure where KBI got the quotes since I wasn't with him while he was doing research, so I took a few minutes to search the thread and see if these quotes did exist. It didn't take long to find them.

 

The first three quotes all come from the original post.

The fourth one you quoted comes from post number 15.

Bingo.

 

(Hey, sometimes little brothers are NOT worthless! :D )

 

All of the quotes I posted came from those two posts on the first page.

 

It wasn't a matter of brushing broad strokes, Too Tall. It was a simple matter of cutting-and-pasting words that have already been posted. I could have wrapped them all in individual quote tags, but for once I decided to skip the clutter. (In the past people have objected to the "quote-fest." This incident only re-confirms the fact that people will find something to be upset about no matter what.)

 

With over 1.75 kiloposts available to mine from in this thread I am sure there is quite a bit more where that came from, but as the gist was already well-expressed at that point I didn’t think more would have helped. If you prefer, however, I would be happy to find more such quotes for you – outrage over perceived degradation to the entire hobby is NOT an emotion that people have been keeping bottled up. (Trying to convince us otherwise at this point represents a glaring fallacy, at best, on your part.)

 

Was that your only objection, that you didn’t trust my quotes? Now that we’ve eliminated that, what do you think of my dependency-on-the-group-for-identity hypothesis? I think it explains a lot myself. Between that and the closet-competitiveness hypothesis I think I’m getting a little closer to a workable theory which might effectively explain the persistent perception among so many cachers of an unwashable stain of degradation on this hobby.

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I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:

 

"False logs degrade what it means to be a geocacher."

"I won’t be such a proud geocacher then."

"[False logs] bastardize the game."

...

"These things have ruined the hobby for me."

Show me where someone has made each of these statements that you set forth. Only one of them ("False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching.") was made, as far as I can remember, although perhaps someone said the game was ruined for them. I'm very interested in seeing where the other statements were made.

 

Brushing such broad strokes across the people you've been arguing against is a fallacy at best.

I'm not 100% sure where KBI got the quotes since I wasn't with him while he was doing research, so I took a few minutes to search the thread and see if these quotes did exist. It didn't take long to find them.

 

The first three quotes all come from the original post.

The fourth one you quoted comes from post number 15.

 

Well, it HAS been 36 pages ago. :D

Nicely researched. Being 36 pages ago, I didn't recall any of those statements being made, and since they (aside from the general degradation of the game statement) don't accurately describe my stance, I discounted them, I guess. :P

 

The fact remains that KBI, in the original quoted post, lumps people in this discussion into 2 groups. Himself and others who "can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher," and those who he attributes some very over the top statements to, plus one I agree with. The casual reader will read this (Who am I kidding? A 36 page thread? Casual reader??) and assume that the statements all go together, when, in fact, this is not necessarily so. I think false logs degrade the game, yet I am not ashamed of the game, it isn't ruined for me, and I do not feel personally degraded.

Some people accordingly consider the merits of an individual’s words and actions to stand alone while others consider the words and actions of any member of any perceived group to apply to the entire group.
KBI, your post here is a high and lofty goal, that we should all strive for. In order to truly reach a state where you "consider the merits of an individual’s words and actions to stand alone," making generalizations like the ones above is certainly nowhere near there.

 

I'll try and call you on it if you try and call me on it, we'll work together to reach that goal.

 

After all, one of the most universal of all things that can degrade something is sweeping generalizations.

 

And we all know that all generalizations are false! :D

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Who cares?

 

This is a hobby/game at best. This is not a sport or a competition.

 

If I'm playing golf (since you used that as an analogy) and I see someone kicking the ball down the fairway or taking twenty swings to get off the tee and then the same guy is bragging in the club house for shooting scratch golf, I just laugh and know that he's an idiot.

 

I partake in this hobby to enjoy it with my friends and family. I really could care less how many finds someone has....if some people do, that's fine, but it doesn't affect me one bit.

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The casual reader will read this (Who am I kidding? A 36 page thread? Casual reader??) and assume that the statements all go together, when, in fact, this is not necessarily so. I think false logs degrade the game, yet I am not ashamed of the game, it isn't ruined for me, and I do not feel personally degraded.

You and I are apparently very close in our viewpoints then. Like you I am not ashamed of the game, it isn't ruined for me, and I do not feel personally degraded when another cacher posts a bogus find.

 

Where you see a false log as "degrading the [entire] game," however, I only see it as calling attention to the individual cacher who posts the false log. I do not see how one person filing a bogus find "degrades" the honest cachers who did not post the log, the website those honest cachers did not post bogus logs to, or the cache container the bogus logger did not find. Why do you insist on generalizing where no generalization is indicated?

 

That’s what I mean when I talk about group identity versus individual identity.

 

Some people accordingly consider the merits of an individual’s words and actions to stand alone while others consider the words and actions of any member of any perceived group to apply to the entire group.

KBI, your post here is a high and lofty goal, that we should all strive for. In order to truly reach a state where you "consider the merits of an individual’s words and actions to stand alone," making generalizations like the ones above is certainly nowhere near there.

 

I'll try and call you on it if you try and call me on it, we'll work together to reach that goal.

 

After all, one of the most universal of all things that can degrade something is sweeping generalizations.

 

And we all know that all generalizations are false! :D

I showed those statements as they appeared in their original posts, being very careful not to alter their original meaning. If you think I failed at representing their original meaning you might have a valid gripe, but I think those statements speak for themselves without any need for interpretation by me or anyone else. If merely quoting those statements amounts to a "generalization," then you must also "generalize" about me every time you quote one of my posts. :P

 

I get that you didn't make those statements yourself, Too Tall. No need to beat me over the head with that; I get it. You didn't say those things. No problem. You first challenged the accuracy of those quotes. I dispelled that objection. You then challenged whether I represented you accurately. I am now confirming that I never intended to represent Too Tall John when I posting those quotes.

 

You will also please note that I wasn't addressing you specifically in the post where I originally presented those quotes. I wasn't talking to anyone in particular. You were the one who decided to react defensively.

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Where you see a false log as "degrading the [entire] game," however, I only see it as calling attention to the individual cacher who posts the false log. I do not see how one person filing a bogus find "degrades" the honest cachers who did not post the log, the website those honest cachers did not post bogus logs to, or the cache container the bogus logger did not find. Why do you insist on generalizing where no generalization is indicated?
I find that false logs do not degrade cachers (other than the false logger), the website, or the cache itself, but they degrade the caching experience. Either as a cacher or an owner, I need to worry about accuracy in logs to some extent. False logs cause angst among numbers cachers, causing more #'s cachers to do more of the things that have been discussed in all the threads that have discussed why numbers caching is bad. If this needs more clarification, ask, I'm about to be pulled away from the computer... :blink:
You will also please note that I wasn't addressing you specifically in the post where I originally presented those quotes. I wasn't talking to anyone in particular. You were the one who decided to react defensively.
Your post implied that there were two options for how to look at the discussion. My objection is having one viewpoint represented as those who "observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher," while everyone else was attributed with saying other things, some of which I object to. That's the sweeping generalizations I'm talking about. Weather you were addressing me or not, you were lumping me into a camp I don't fit in. As was said during a similar situation a while back, "Hey, that isn't my camp! I want my own tent!" :P

 

G'nite, I've been told that it's time for bed...

 

:unsure:

 

 

:sad:

 

 

:(

 

 

:P

 

 

:(

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Where you see a false log as "degrading the [entire] game," however, I only see it as calling attention to the individual cacher who posts the false log. I do not see how one person filing a bogus find "degrades" the honest cachers who did not post the log, the website those honest cachers did not post bogus logs to, or the cache container the bogus logger did not find. Why do you insist on generalizing where no generalization is indicated?

I find that false logs do not degrade cachers (other than the false logger), the website, or the cache itself, but they degrade the caching experience.

The caching experience? If you agree that bogus logs "do not degrade cachers (other than the false logger), the website, or the cache itself," then what else is there? By "the caching experience" do you mean the overall experience of researching a cache, programming your GPS, seeking and finding the container, trading booty, and documenting the experience in the paper log and online? If so, where in any of that does a harmless* bogus log, on that cache or elsewhere, cause your experience to be degraded?

 

(*I’m sure that by now you understand I’m not talking about the subset of bogus logs that everyone agrees might cause you to waste your time seeking a nonexistent cache, etc. I’m talking about the other subset, the benign logs that can’t hurt you.)

 

Either as a cacher or an owner, I need to worry about accuracy in logs to some extent.

Correction: You WANT to worry about accuracy in logs to some extent. The mere existence of a bogus log does not require that we all "need to" worry about it. You choose to. I don’t.

 

Gnashing my teeth and becoming outraged over someone else’s silly self-lie isn’t something I prefer, but knock yourself out.

 

False logs cause angst among numbers cachers, causing more #'s cachers to do more of the things that have been discussed in all the threads that have discussed why numbers caching is bad.

Sorry, but I cannot accept that sort of blame-shifting. Those bad deeds to which you refer are solely the fault of the numbers cachers themselves, not the fault of any bogus logs they may have read.

 

Blaming bogus logs for the bad behavior of numbers hounds is like blaming the beer instead of blaming the the drunk driver.

 

If a criminal commits a copycat murder in response to an inaccurate newspaper story, then who do you think should be charged and tried for the copycat murder, the criminal or the reporter? Unless you can convince me that the reporter (who did not commit the murder) should be locked up while the murderer (who is presumably responsible for his own choices and actions) goes free, then I cannot buy your logic.

 

You will also please note that I wasn't addressing you specifically in the post where I originally presented those quotes. I wasn't talking to anyone in particular. You were the one who decided to react defensively.

Your post implied that there were two options for how to look at the discussion. My objection is having one viewpoint represented as those who "observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher," while everyone else was attributed with saying other things, some of which I object to. That's the sweeping generalizations I'm talking about.

You objection, then, is based on a misinterpretation of my post. I did not attribute those statements to "everyone else."

 

What I said is this:

 

"I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:"

"Others" doesn’t mean "all others." "Make statements like these" doesn’t mean "always and only make these specific statements."

 

See the difference?

 

Neither does my hypothesis imply that the realm of possibilities exists only as a binary option. There is nothing in my hypothesis that precludes a continuum.

 

If, as you say, your outlook falls somewhere closer to the individual-identity end of the spectrum than the group-identity end, then my comments would apply to you only a little. Does that sound better?

 

If this needs more clarification, ask, I'm about to be pulled away from the computer... :blink:

I’m confident you’ll be back ... as will I. :laughing:

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I think OJ Simpson is a crook, but I don’t think OJ Simpson’s crimes reflect badly on ALL ex-football players; others see it differently. I think anyone who drives drunk is a dangerous idiot, but I don’t think the mere existence of one idiot drunken driver means that ALL motorists should feel ashamed; some, evidently, disagree.

 

But he did cause a real degradation to the justice system :laughing: (Or maybe he just exposed the existing problems)

 

As far as the drunken idiot, clearly that idiot only affects those he comes into contact with. Unfortunately, when there are drunken idiots driving in every state and every city almost every day, it becomes a widespread problem. The question is whether false logging has risen to the level that we can call it a widespread problem? The answer is No. When (or if) it does become a widespread problem, can we count on you to stand by us to rid the community of this problem? (Almost be easier to fix the problem before it becomes widespread).

 

Do you think it will eventually become a bigger problem? Or do you think it will remain at its current level?

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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I think OJ Simpson is a crook, but I don’t think OJ Simpson’s crimes reflect badly on ALL ex-football players; others see it differently. I think anyone who drives drunk is a dangerous idiot, but I don’t think the mere existence of one idiot drunken driver means that ALL motorists should feel ashamed; some, evidently, disagree.

 

But he did cause a real degradation to the justice system :laughing: (Or maybe he just exposed the existing problems)

 

As far as the drunken idiot, clearly that idiot only affects those he comes into contact with. Unfortunately, when there are drunken idiots driving in every state and every city almost every day, it becomes a widespread problem. The question is whether false logging has risen to the level that we can call it a widespread problem? The answer is No. When (or if) it does become a widespread problem, can we count on you to stand by us to rid the community of this problem? (Almost be easier to fix the problem before it becomes widespread).

 

Do you think it will eventually become a bigger problem? Or do you think it will remain at its current level?

 

I see it as mostly a localized problem and HOPE it stays this way...

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I think OJ Simpson is a crook, but I don’t think OJ Simpson’s crimes reflect badly on ALL ex-football players; others see it differently. I think anyone who drives drunk is a dangerous idiot, but I don’t think the mere existence of one idiot drunken driver means that ALL motorists should feel ashamed; some, evidently, disagree.

But he did cause a real degradation to the justice system :laughing: (Or maybe he just exposed the existing problems)

I don’t blame OJ. I blame the jury.

 

That doesn’t mean I blame ALL juries for what the OJ jury did. The OJ jury degraded only themselves – they did not "degrade" the entire justice system. There are plenty of rational juries every day who make very just decisions.

 

Who knows, if the OJ jury stands as a bad enough example they may eventually end up actually improving the justice system.

 

As far as the drunken idiot, clearly that idiot only affects those he comes into contact with. Unfortunately, when there are drunken idiots driving in every state and every city almost every day, it becomes a widespread problem.

Then you blame the "drunken idiots driving in every state and every city." You do NOT blame ALL drivers. That is my point – that it is a fallacy to associate the behaviors of a few individuals with an entire group just because they happen to be members of that group.

 

The question is whether false logging has risen to the level that we can call it a widespread problem? The answer is No. When (or if) it does become a widespread problem, can we count on you to stand by us to rid the community of this problem?

I say we wait and cross that bridge when (or if) we come to it. I don’t see it happening. All I see happening is a few group-identity and closet-competitor people becoming upset over the way a few other people define a cache find.

 

Do you think it will eventually become a bigger problem? Or do you think it will remain at its current level?

I see no indication that there is enough bogus logging to even be called a problem. Speculation about non-existent problems – that a hypothetical increase is on the way, for example – is pointless. We can speculate about anything, that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.

 

For example: Do you think cache containers being destroyed by falling space debris will eventually become a bigger problem? Or do you think it will remain at its current level? When it does become a widespread problem, can I count on you to stand by me to rid the community of this problem?

Edited by KBI
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Caches being destroyed by forest fires is a real problem. If this problem continues to increase, it will seriously degrade the game of geocaching. Perhaps we should stop hiding caches in the forest? This would minimize the number of caches being destroyed by forest fires and maintain on non-degrading level of forest fire-destroyed caches.

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I think OJ Simpson is a crook, but I don’t think OJ Simpson’s crimes reflect badly on ALL ex-football players; others see it differently. I think anyone who drives drunk is a dangerous idiot, but I don’t think the mere existence of one idiot drunken driver means that ALL motorists should feel ashamed; some, evidently, disagree.

But he did cause a real degradation to the justice system <_< (Or maybe he just exposed the existing problems)

I don’t blame OJ. I blame the jury.

I don't blame the jury. I blame the combination of a racist cop, a DA who made the testimony of the racist cop a critical part of the evidence, and an opportunistic lawyer who took advantage of the this to convince the jury there was reasonable doubt. I haven't figured out what this has to do with false found it logs. Perhaps geocaching is degraded by a combination of false found it logs, cache owners the don't do anything to prevent false logs, and cachers who see a few false logs as enough to cause reasonable doubt about every other log.

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Caches being destroyed by forest fires is a real problem. If this problem continues to increase, it will seriously degrade the game of geocaching. Perhaps we should stop hiding caches in the forest? This would minimize the number of caches being destroyed by forest fires and maintain on non-degrading level of forest fire-destroyed caches.

 

Don't worry, until forest fires begin burning walmart parking lots, I don't think its going to cause much of a problem for geocaching :lol:<_<

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(*I’m sure that by now you understand I’m not talking about the subset of bogus logs that everyone agrees might cause you to waste your time seeking a nonexistent cache, etc. I’m talking about the other subset, the benign logs that can’t hurt you.)
Which of these subsets is in the majority remains to be seen. The problem is that a log that might cause you to waste your time is a lot harder to spot than one of these other logs. Why? Because the logger wants the log to look like a real log.

 

We can't forget the point that at very least, all bogus logs leave PQ users with one less legit log to fall back on if it is needed, meaning that no bogus log is harmless to that subset of users who are hunting that cache.

Either as a cacher or an owner, I need to worry about accuracy in logs to some extent.
Correction: You WANT to worry about accuracy in logs to some extent. The mere existence of a bogus log does not require that we all "need to" worry about it. You choose to. I don’t.
Actually, as a cache owner, the guidelines require that I "Delete any logs that appear to be bogus {or} counterfeit..." As a seeker, I suppose I don't need to worry, but I and others do.
If a criminal commits a copycat murder in response to an inaccurate newspaper story, then who do you think should be charged and tried for the copycat murder, the criminal or the reporter? Unless you can convince me that the reporter (who did not commit the murder) should be locked up while the murderer (who is presumably responsible for his own choices and actions) goes free, then I cannot buy your logic.
To follow your analogy, the website is the reporter. The point I was making doesn't fit the rest of your analogy, anyways. What I was trying to say would me more analogous to a couple of alcoholics who circulate in similar circles. One sees the other having a drink and decides he wants one, too. The spiral begins...
You objection, then, is based on a misinterpretation of my post. I did not attribute those statements to "everyone else."

 

What I said is this:

 

"I think this, more than anything else I can imagine, explains how I can observe a benign bogus smiley log as nothing more than a curiosity created by a clueless cacher, while others who observe the very same bogus smiley are moved to make statements like these:"

"Others" doesn’t mean "all others." "Make statements like these" doesn’t mean "always and only make these specific statements."

 

See the difference?

 

Neither does my hypothesis imply that the realm of possibilities exists only as a binary option. There is nothing in my hypothesis that precludes a continuum.

 

If, as you say, your outlook falls somewhere closer to the individual-identity end of the spectrum than the group-identity end, then my comments would apply to you only a little. Does that sound better?

My objection was based on the fact that to the casual reader, your statement did not appear to say this at all. Thank you for clarifying.
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(*I’m sure that by now you understand I’m not talking about the subset of bogus logs that everyone agrees might cause you to waste your time seeking a nonexistent cache, etc. I’m talking about the other subset, the benign logs that can’t hurt you.)
Which of these subsets is in the majority remains to be seen. The problem is that a log that might cause you to waste your time is a lot harder to spot than one of these other logs. Why? Because the logger wants the log to look like a real log.

If you are saying that you are against logs which are posted for malicious purposes, then I agree with you. It has never been my position to defend such behavior.

 

Bogus logs which do no harm and are not intended to cause harm, on the other hand, are what I am talking about.

 

We can't forget the point that at very least, all bogus logs leave PQ users with one less legit log to fall back on if it is needed, meaning that no bogus log is harmless to that subset of users who are hunting that cache.

No, they don’t. That’s been thoroughly covered already.

 

Bogus logs are, by definition, lies. Even a fresh bogus log might be intentionally back-dated, and would therefore not show up in any listing of the last five logs. No harm, no foul, no degradation – just a silly cacher logging a silly fake find.

 

Actually, as a cache owner, the guidelines require that I "Delete any logs that appear to be bogus {or} counterfeit..."

I agree. It has never been my position to suggest otherwise.

 

As a seeker, I suppose I don't need to worry, but I and others do.

Why? <_< Why allow something to bother you that needn’t? :lol: That's what I don't understand.

 

If a criminal commits a copycat murder in response to an inaccurate newspaper story, then who do you think should be charged and tried for the copycat murder, the criminal or the reporter? Unless you can convince me that the reporter (who did not commit the murder) should be locked up while the murderer (who is presumably responsible for his own choices and actions) goes free, then I cannot buy your logic.

The point I was making doesn't fit the rest of your analogy, anyways. What I was trying to say would me more analogous to a couple of alcoholics who circulate in similar circles. One sees the other having a drink and decides he wants one, too. The spiral begins...

So then, by your analogy: if a numbers-competitive cacher behaves badly, and does so using the excuse that I unknowingly provided some kind of temptation, then it is MY fault, not his, that he engaged in the bad behavior?

 

Somehow I’m still not convinced that this makes bogus logs evil. I prefer to put the responsibility directly on the individual who commits the bad behavior, not provide them with excuses as you seem to prefer.

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I prefer to put the responsibility directly on the individual who commits the bad behavior, not provide them with excuses as you seem to prefer.

An excuse is saying "Oh, it's ok, because of _____." I excused nobody.

 

My point had little to do with the placing of blame and more to do with pointing out that people pumping their numbers with false logs are helping to fuel the numbers game. Of course, the numbers game is also helping put people in the mindset where they think they need/get to post false logs.

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Looks to me like this thread is running down. It seems to be the same few going back and forth.

 

from the list of who has posted how many times to this thread. I stopped at 10 post per person.

 

KBI 192

sbell111 169

infiniteMPG 152

Renegade Knight 134

Mushtang 114

Cedar Grove Seekers 87

HopsMaltYeast 76

Rockin Roddy 76

ReadyOrNot 74

TrailGators 63

Too Tall John 61

tozainamboku 49

briansnat 44

egami 35

JohnnyVegas 34

BlueDeuce 32

cache_test_dummies 29

Bad_CRC 25

ArcherDragoon 21

ecanderson 18

Trinity's Crew 17

Driver Carries Cache 16

MountainMudbug 15

Mudfrog 14

Team Cotati 14

Kit Fox 12

Dinoprophet 10

 

Its a good topic but you guys should take the back and forth to an email or PM. Its getting repetitious.

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I prefer to put the responsibility directly on the individual who commits the bad behavior, not provide them with excuses as you seem to prefer.

An excuse is saying "Oh, it's ok, because of _____." I excused nobody.

 

My point had little to do with the placing of blame and more to do with pointing out that people pumping their numbers with false logs are helping to fuel the numbers game.

Encouraging a numbers game and degrading the hobby are two different things.

 

I have said all along that competitiveness, whether folks admit it or not, is what encourages people to be offended by bogus logs. Now you’re saying that the bogus logs are encouraging the competitiveness. You may have a point.

 

I would respond to that by pointing out that it is my choice whether to allow a bogus log to encourage me to become competitive with my find count. Since I choose NOT to compete, and since I understand that those who DO compete are doing so by CHOICE, there is still no reason for me to perceive degradation associated with bogus logs. If there is any degradation, it only exists in the minds of those who have voluntarily chosen to compete in this non-competitive hobby, and who are therefore doing something other than Geocaching.

 

If you are not competing with anyone, then what the heck does it matter to you who is pumping their numbers with their find logs, bogus or otherwise?

 

It doesn’t sound like you feel the hobby is degraded because people are posting bogus logs. It sounds more like you are a non-competitor who feels frustrated because other non-competitors appear to be non-beating you at this non-competitive hobby by non-cheating on their non-score.

 

Of course, the numbers game is also helping put people in the mindset where they think they need/get to post false logs.

Of course, the people who actually post the bogus logs are the offenders, not the high find counts of the people who allegedly encourage them. Please stop blaming the innocent.

 

If someone makes the mistake of believing that they need/get to post false logs, then they are only degrading themselves – NOT the hobby.

 

I look at an individual bogus log and I see an individual cacher who is pathetic and/or confused. You look at an individual bogus log and you see a hobby-wide stain. Why?

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Caches being destroyed by forest fires is a real problem. If this problem continues to increase, it will seriously degrade the game of geocaching. Perhaps we should stop hiding caches in the forest? This would minimize the number of caches being destroyed by forest fires and maintain on non-degrading level of forest fire-destroyed caches.
Don't worry, until forest fires begin burning walmart parking lots, I don't think its going to cause much of a problem for geocaching :D:anibad:
Sure, then we will have nothing but LPMs. Is this the game that you want to play?

 

I am deeply concerned about your laissez-faire attitude toward this problem. It especially concerns me because myself (and the rest of us) can do nothing about the growing risk of caches being destroyed by forest fires. After all, only you can prevent forest fires.

 

D834~Smokey-Bear-Only-You-Posters.jpg

Edited by sbell111
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Looks to me like this thread is running down. It seems to be the same few going back and forth.

 

from the list of who has posted how many times to this thread. I stopped at 10 post per person.

 

KBI 192

sbell111 169

infiniteMPG 152

Renegade Knight 134

Mushtang 114

Cedar Grove Seekers 87

HopsMaltYeast 76

Rockin Roddy 76

ReadyOrNot 74

TrailGators 63

Too Tall John 61

tozainamboku 49

briansnat 44

egami 35

JohnnyVegas 34

BlueDeuce 32

cache_test_dummies 29

Bad_CRC 25

ArcherDragoon 21

ecanderson 18

Trinity's Crew 17

Driver Carries Cache 16

MountainMudbug 15

Mudfrog 14

Team Cotati 14

Kit Fox 12

Dinoprophet 10

 

Its a good topic but you guys should take the back and forth to an email or PM. Its getting repetitious.

ALRIGHT...in the top 10!! I'll have to inflate my numbers with some false posts if I want the top 5! lol

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Caches being destroyed by forest fires is a real problem. If this problem continues to increase, it will seriously degrade the game of geocaching. Perhaps we should stop hiding caches in the forest? This would minimize the number of caches being destroyed by forest fires and maintain on non-degrading level of forest fire-destroyed caches.
Don't worry, until forest fires begin burning walmart parking lots, I don't think its going to cause much of a problem for geocaching :D:anibad:
Sure, then we will have nothing but LPMs. Is this the game that you want to play?

 

I am deeply concerned about your laissez-faire attitude toward this problem. It especially concerns me because myself (and the rest of us) can do nothing about the growing risk of caches being destroyed by forest fires. After all, only you can prevent forest fires.

 

D834~Smokey-Bear-Only-You-Posters.jpg

Is geocaching degraded by those who incite panic by crying "Forest Fire!!!!" in the woods near a cache when there is actually no fire present?

 

I say no. Although such a distraction may momentarily impact someone's enjoyment of the game, and may result in personal injuries as a result of the panic-induced rush to the nearest forest exit, the false cry would not impact the caches or cachers in a different forest.

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Caches being destroyed by forest fires is a real problem. If this problem continues to increase, it will seriously degrade the game of geocaching. Perhaps we should stop hiding caches in the forest? This would minimize the number of caches being destroyed by forest fires and maintain on non-degrading level of forest fire-destroyed caches.
Don't worry, until forest fires begin burning walmart parking lots, I don't think its going to cause much of a problem for geocaching :D:anibad:
Sure, then we will have nothing but LPMs. Is this the game that you want to play?

 

I am deeply concerned about your laissez-faire attitude toward this problem. It especially concerns me because myself (and the rest of us) can do nothing about the growing risk of caches being destroyed by forest fires. After all, only you can prevent forest fires.

 

D834~Smokey-Bear-Only-You-Posters.jpg

Is geocaching degraded by those who incite panic by crying "Forest Fire!!!!" in the woods near a cache when there is actually no fire present?

 

I say no. Although such a distraction may momentarily impact someone's enjoyment of the game, and may result in personal injuries as a result of the panic-induced rush to the nearest forest exit, the false cry would not impact the caches or cachers in a different forest.

 

Never mind.

Edited by Team Cotati
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Its a good topic but you guys should take the back and forth to an email or PM. Its getting repetitious.

 

This thread is like a car wreck. I keep wanting to drive past without looking, but I can't help myself. I think the only noble thing to do at this point is to put it out of its misery. Otherwise, people will continue posting to it, keeping it alive for no apparent reason. OOOPS! ;);)

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I have said all along that competitiveness, whether folks admit it or not, is what encourages people to be offended by bogus logs. Now you’re saying that the bogus logs are encouraging the competitiveness. You may have a point.
I actually think it's kinda a chicken or the egg question, which came first... But that's neither here nor there.
I would respond to that by pointing out that it is my choice whether to allow a bogus log to encourage me to become competitive with my find count. Since I choose NOT to compete, and since I understand that those who DO compete are doing so by CHOICE, there is still no reason for me to perceive degradation associated with bogus logs. If there is any degradation, it only exists in the minds of those who have voluntarily chosen to compete in this non-competitive hobby, and who are therefore doing something other than Geocaching.
My point is that because numbers cachers are placing/encouraging the placement of ho-hum micros. Ho-hum caches? Virtuals are no longer allowed because of the ho-hummedness of some, so someone up there thought ho-hum is bad for the game...

 

False logs (like any log, only there is little effort behind the log) make those who do compete all that much more driven to get their numbers up.

It doesn’t sound like you feel the hobby is degraded because people are posting bogus logs. It sounds more like you are a non-competitor who feels frustrated because other non-competitors appear to be non-beating you at this non-competitive hobby by non-cheating on their non-score.
Why am I quoting this? I found it an amusing piece of writing. Not saying anything bad about it, it just tickled me. My actual response is above.
If someone makes the mistake of believing that they need/get to post false logs, then they are only degrading themselves – NOT the hobby.

 

I look at an individual bogus log and I see an individual cacher who is pathetic and/or confused. You look at an individual bogus log and you see a hobby-wide stain. Why?

They are an unnecessary inconvenience that take away from the enjoyment of many.

 

If we met at an event and I spent all my spare time poking you in the ribs, what would you do? Say? Think?

 

I wouldn't poke you hard enough to hurt you, but I bet you'd object.

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First I have to say that I found this cache and am sorry it was archived because it is really a cool place. I think I will submit it as a Best Kept Secret waymark. :)

Sorry to bump this thread <_< . Just wanted to toot my Best Keep Secret Waymark. I'm patiently waiting for my first Greetings from Germany log.

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As it stands right now, it is hard to imagine anything more likely to cause degradation of geocaching than the continued existance of this thread. My concern now is that the longer it goes, that the risk of it somehow escaping into the rest of the world, might be increasing.

 

An anthrax attack would be more survivable.

Edited by Team Cotati
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I would respond to that by pointing out that it is my choice whether to allow a bogus log to encourage me to become competitive with my find count. Since I choose NOT to compete, and since I understand that those who DO compete are doing so by CHOICE, there is still no reason for me to perceive degradation associated with bogus logs. If there is any degradation, it only exists in the minds of those who have voluntarily chosen to compete in this non-competitive hobby, and who are therefore doing something other than Geocaching.

My point is that because numbers cachers are placing/encouraging the placement of ho-hum micros. Ho-hum caches? Virtuals are no longer allowed because of the ho-hummedness of some, so someone up there thought ho-hum is bad for the game...

 

False logs (like any log, only there is little effort behind the log) make those who do compete all that much more driven to get their numbers up.

If I understand correctly, then, your thinking goes like this:

 

False logs encourage competition

Competition is bad

Therefore false logs are bad

 

You are therefore making the argument that false logs are bad based on two premises. I disagree with both premises.

 

(1) False logs encourage competition.

 

I have seen no evidence of this.

 

It doesn’t make sense anyway; cachers have been racking up huge find counts for years – with all those honest cachers out there building up all those very large and honestly-earned numbers, what does it matter if there is a tiny number of cachers with falsely-inflated find counts in the mix?

 

Many things encourage competition. I don’t really see bogus logs being one of them.

 

(2) Competition is bad.

 

Competition isn’t necessarily bad. It’s all in the attitude.

 

There is nothing inherently bad about friendly competition among cachers. Most FTFs, most finds in a day, toughest puzzle, highest find count – it’s all friendly as long as everyone agrees to it and understands what’s going on. As soon as one competitive cacher, however, starts trying to impose his competition ethics on a non-competitor – as in the case of making accusations of hobby-wide degradation based on some nebulous and perceived cause-effect relationship between an individual false log and overall caching happiness – then I think the non-participants have a right to complain.

 

Besides, and as I’ve said before: If someone does something bad in response to an influence, it is the badly behaving person who is responsible for the bad behavior, not the influence. Blame the competitor for whatever bad thing he chose to do; don’t blame the bogus log.

 

Between "legitimate smiley" and "bogus smiley" is a wide range of find-claiming behaviors, some of which will naturally be considered more legitimate than others. It’s a continuum. You have your own standards about what you consider to be a legitimate find, and I have mine. Who am I to tell you what shouldn’t be in your count, what you shouldn’t log online as a find, what is or isn’t bogus?

 

If there is any degradation in this hobby it is from the busybodies who aren’t happy minding their own business and who spend way too much time worrying about how other people manages their personal standards.

 

If we met at an event and I spent all my spare time poking you in the ribs, what would you do? Say? Think?

 

I wouldn't poke you hard enough to hurt you, but I bet you'd object.

I would probably say something to you about it in the form of a complaint, but one thing is for certain: I would NOT blame the entire event for causing the annoyance, or in any way try to claim that the whole party had been "degraded" as a result of your individual actions.

 

"The event" didn’t poke me in the ribs; you did.

 

Your behavior might affect my opinion of you, but I would not transfer that opinion onto every other person in attendance. That would be about as silly as ... well, about as silly as claiming that a few individual bogus logs "degrade" the entire hobby of Geocaching. :o

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"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

- version of The Serenity Prayer, originally by Reinhold Niebuhr

While I can't change the weather, I can possibly change the minds of people taking actions that are detrimental to this game. Rather than sit back and say "There's nothing I can do about it," I am using a certain amount of courage to come forward and make a stand on this issue in the face of a whole bunch of naysayers such as yourself.

Well said.

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False logs (like any log, only there is little effort behind the log) make those who do compete all that much more driven to get their numbers up.
If I understand correctly, then, your thinking goes like this:

 

False logs encourage competition

Competition is bad

Therefore false logs are bad

If my statement was made outside the context of this discussion one could assume your interpretation is correct. This is not the case, however. In the interest of the Half-Naked Man's concerns, I will say no more and let interested parties read the past couple pages & come to their own conclusions.
I look at an individual bogus log and I see an individual cacher who is pathetic and/or confused. You look at an individual bogus log and you see a hobby-wide stain. Why?
They are an unnecessary inconvenience that take away from the enjoyment of many.

 

If we met at an event and I spent all my spare time poking you in the ribs, what would you do? Say? Think?

 

I wouldn't poke you hard enough to hurt you, but I bet you'd object.

I would probably say something to you about it in the form of a complaint, but one thing is for certain: I would NOT blame the entire event for causing the annoyance, or in any way try to claim that the whole party had been "degraded" as a result of your individual actions.

 

"The event" didn’t poke me in the ribs; you did.

 

Your behavior might affect my opinion of you, but I would not transfer that opinion onto every other person in attendance. That would be about as silly as ... well, about as silly as claiming that a few individual bogus logs "degrade" the entire hobby of Geocaching. :o

I re-inserted the pertinent part of the post in red. I was answering your question, "You look at an individual bogus log and you see a hobby-wide stain. Why?" My answer? Well, first, my answer is I never called it a "hobby-wide-stain." This is a good example of your overstating my argument in order to tear it down. That aside, I object to false logging because I find it annoying, so I feel the need to say something about it, just as you would feel the need to say something if I kept poking you in the ribs.
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"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

- version of The Serenity Prayer, originally by Reinhold Niebuhr

While I can't change the weather, I can possibly change the minds of people taking actions that are detrimental to this game. Rather than sit back and say "There's nothing I can do about it," I am using a certain amount of courage to come forward and make a stand on this issue in the face of a whole bunch of naysayers such as yourself.

Well said.
Thank you. I've got to say something that makes sense every once in a while... :o

 

After all, don't they say that if you put a million monkeys with typewriters in a room for a million years, one of 'em will write the works of Shakespeare? :o

 

:o

 

 

;)

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After all, don't they say that if you put a million monkeys with typewriters in a room for a million years, one of 'em will write the works of Shakespeare? :o

 

:o

 

 

:o

Hamlet:

Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or

bad, but thinking makes it so.

Hamlet:

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how

infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and

admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like

a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,

to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—

nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

 

Rosencrantz:

My lord, there was no such stuff in my thoughts.

Edited by tozainamboku
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I never called it a "hobby-wide-stain." ... That aside, I object to false logging because I find it annoying, so I feel the need to say something about it, just as you would feel the need to say something if I kept poking you in the ribs.

Then it would appear that you do not feel nearly as strongly about the issue of bogus logs as the OP and the others who have agreed with him.

 

I can understand how bogus logs which would cause practical inconvenience might be an annoyance, but beyond that they simply don’t bother me. I’m sorry that they bother you.

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Hello people, I just want to say that I do not approve of false logs either. I know several people who cache together on occasion and if one of them is alone and finds a news cache, he will write all of their names in the log. That is wrong.

Wjat to do about it? I am not sure, but we need to speak up and let these people know we dissaprove of their actions. ejoty

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I can understand how bogus logs which would cause practical inconvenience might be an annoyance, but beyond that they simply don’t bother me. I’m sorry that they bother you.
This thread is still breathing?.... amazing! Anyway, thought I'd drop another 2-cents in the slot. I just did some cache maintenance on some urban caches in the last couple days and part of the problem was the baggies the logs were in were old and not sealing good. So new log sheets and new baggies were installed. But this allowed me to look at the logs, and some of them more then a year old. When the pages got damp the ink blurred out totally making it all but impossible to see who signed it and when. That would be impossible to police unless you did it on a very short and regular basis.

 

Secondly, the ones that were fairly well intact I checked against the pages for chuckles... not a single one unaccounted for as far as I could tell. Of course some people signed out of chronological order, like skipped a page and then others saw it and went back and filled in, some on the backs of pages but the wrong page, some upside down, some all over the place. Just trying to sort it out was very time consuming. If I had to do this in the field I'd of had to of carried a sleeping bag as I'd of been there quite a while.

 

With the fact that policing logs is pretty much an insurmountable task (and impossible if damage or something occurred) it just seems unless something nails a red flag on a 2X4 and slams you in the face with it screaming "I'M FAKE!", you would be hard pressed to keep up with policing even just a couple caches. And there's lots of us out here with hundreds of hides, some of them so far out it would take a whole day to visit it once.

 

I am not saying fake logs are okay or that they may not cause the occasional inconvienience, but saying you want them elimnated completely is like saying we shouldn't let anyone speed on the highways. When a state trooper happens to be at the right place and the right time to catch it happening, he'll do something about it. But trying to put a halt to it across the board would be impossible. Yeah, people speeding are a pain and make driving a little less fun, but I don't see many people avoiding the road or buying personal radar guns because of it. I'd bet pretty much everyone does it and people even buy radar detectors so they can do it without getting caught. Kind of just the way people are.

 

If a fake log comes to light, deal with it. If you feel strong enough about it then police it on your caches. (Does anyone actually DO THAT????). If you were to classify things that 'degrade' GC, fake logs would hardly make it on the list.

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Did you guys decide yet if we are or if we aren't?

About half of us have decided correctly, but the other half hasn't figured out the correct answer yet.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

 

Besides, what makes you so sure I'm right?

 

You've got half of your statement correct :o

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I'm patiently waiting for my first Greetings from Germany log.
:)
You can't degrade Waymarking. It's undegradeable :D
Given enough time, some dope somewhere will find a way, or will at least try. :blink:

 

Aren't we trying to be environmentally friendly? The lst thing I heard described as "undegradable" was all the diapers in the landfills that will be there in 1000 years... :)

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This thread is to discuss, over and over and over until the cows come home and they're blue in the face, whether or not fake logs are causing a degradation to geocaching.
Nooooo.... this thread is to discuss, over and over until the cows, pigs and ferrets come home and they're blue in the face, whether or not ALLOWING fake logs is causing a degradation to geocaching. And the cows told me asking how anyone would go about policing fake logs was still on topic.... and then they turned purple in the face and passed out :blink:

 

07-20-2007_169.jpg

 

I'm Hoooome!!!

 

'nuff said :)

Edited by cowcreekgeeks
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