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Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?


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So, your point is that you agree with me?
About there being more then 42K cachers? Heck yeah! And as with any group of a quarter million or so people, I think you can pretty much count on some of them being the types that will break the rules in ways we can't even imgine. Just a fact of the human life experience, accept it or pick a different critter to be...

 

As soon as we make a system that is perfectly idiot-proof, someone will come along and invent a perfect idiot....

 

And just because the world is full of idiots means what? My kids try to use that logic all the time... "I shouldn't be in trouble for smacking my brother, because he's an idiot"... Sorry, being an idiot doesn't justify bad behavior, although it acts as an excuse of sorts for the bad behavior. The world is full of bad excuses too (as we've seen in this thread)

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And since I don't see GC even posting how or why anyone enters info on the log page for a geocache I sure don't see their mere existence causing a degradation of geocaching.

 

Is it beer:30 yet...?

 

Is it too late for another analogy?

 

Professional Baseball and steroid use. Back in the very beginning when it started to become a problem, the excuse was always that it was not a widespread problem. And it really didn't affect anyone in any meaningful way. It was left unchecked.. Look where we are now..

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And just because the world is full of idiots means what?
It means that we either deal with them as best we can or let them run us over and make every day of our existence miserable. Our choice.

 

My kids try to use that logic all the time... "I shouldn't be in trouble for smacking my brother, because he's an idiot"... Sorry, being an idiot doesn't justify bad behavior, although it acts as an excuse of sorts for the bad behavior. The world is full of bad excuses too (as we've seen in this thread)
When my kids smacked each other the answer was normally the truth... even if that was simply "because I felt like it". If they were hitting each other, hurting someone or something, I dealt with it. If they were in their room beating up their pillow and not harming a thing I'd just shrug my shoulders and keep on walking. No harm, no foul. I'm not condoning falsifying logs, but if they're not causing harm then I'm not going to put a lot into dealing with them. Too much other fun stuff to do rather then fight for the purity of GC....
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Is it too late for another analogy?
Never too late for another analogy.... or another beer.

 

Professional Baseball and steroid use. Back in the very beginning when it started to become a problem, the excuse was always that it was not a widespread problem. And it really didn't affect anyone in any meaningful way. It was left unchecked.. Look where we are now..
A big problem but also a competitive sport where teams are trying to win, players are trying to earn million$, and owners are trying to make their mark in the financial world. Might be unbelievable steroid use in recreational baseball and softball but I doubt you'll ever hear about it and doubt it causes much problem beyond some shrinkage issues at home :lol:
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Is it too late for another analogy?
Never too late for another analogy.... or another beer.

 

Professional Baseball and steroid use. Back in the very beginning when it started to become a problem, the excuse was always that it was not a widespread problem. And it really didn't affect anyone in any meaningful way. It was left unchecked.. Look where we are now..
A big problem but also a competitive sport where teams are trying to win, players are trying to earn million$, and owners are trying to make their mark in the financial world. Might be unbelievable steroid use in recreational baseball and softball but I doubt you'll ever hear about it and doubt it causes much problem beyond some shrinkage issues at home :lol:

 

Is that why my.... Ummmmm..

 

Carry on. :)

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I really do not know why some people are defending fake loggers, when they do not have any intention of creating any fake logs themselves... :lol:
I really don't understand why you say that people are defending false loggers. I have not seen this.

........

What I haven't seen is agreement on the OP's position that "False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching, and what it means to be a geocacher."

 

OK, "defending" was the wrong word to use.

 

I'd say "degrade" is also incorrect, but I read it as the OP as intending to mean "not good for the sport".

 

If you guys want to put a spin on it that it's mostly benign, that would be correct in most cases.

If the amount of fake logs somehow reached a level of 10% (for example), then it would not be so much benign anymore, and would pose a problem. But 10% would actually be pretty high, and I havent seen anything that would indicate anything close to that.

 

If the amount of fake logs reached a majority, or any substantial percentage (such as 40% or more) then it would "degrade" the sport, and I would want no part of it. But I really dont feel that there would be anything ever close to 10%.

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My buddy was frustrated one day and threw his ball a couple of times, (and his putter into the woods). Although we weren't competing, I know that some in our group got tired of it. The Marshall also caught him and asked him to stop throwing his ball. I didn't ask the Marshall why my friend wasn't allowed to throw his ball considering it wasn't hurting anyone else, but I suspect he might have answered something along the lines of, "that's not golf, our course is for golf, if you want to throw balls then go the to the baseball diamond down the road". Maybe the Marshall was just protecting the integrity of how the game was played on his course.

Sorry to pull up a quote from two pages ago, but I've been on the road all day and just sat down to read these.

 

I like this example, and think it fits in well with what others were saying about a few people kicking a ball not degrading golf. In your example I'd say the Marshall was like the cache owner, and was doing his job. He choose to stop your friend from false logging (throwing the ball) and deleted his log. The Marshall could have decided to ignore it and let it continue, but then if the reviewers caught him (his bosses) he'd have his cache archived (get fired). The Marshall was doing what he was supposed to.

 

The overall game of golf wasn't degraded.

 

If the Marshall hadn't noticed and your friend kept throwing the ball, the overall game of golf wouldn't have been degraded either. Folks playing on another course next weekend wouldn't be adversely affected.

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My buddy was frustrated one day and threw his ball a couple of times, (and his putter into the woods). Although we weren't competing, I know that some in our group got tired of it. The Marshall also caught him and asked him to stop throwing his ball. I didn't ask the Marshall why my friend wasn't allowed to throw his ball considering it wasn't hurting anyone else, but I suspect he might have answered something along the lines of, "that's not golf, our course is for golf, if you want to throw balls then go the to the baseball diamond down the road". Maybe the Marshall was just protecting the integrity of how the game was played on his course.

Sorry to pull up a quote from two pages ago, but I've been on the road all day and just sat down to read these.

 

I like this example, and think it fits in well with what others were saying about a few people kicking a ball not degrading golf. In your example I'd say the Marshall was like the cache owner, and was doing his job. He choose to stop your friend from false logging (throwing the ball) and deleted his log. The Marshall could have decided to ignore it and let it continue, but then if the reviewers caught him (his bosses) he'd have his cache archived (get fired). The Marshall was doing what he was supposed to.

 

The overall game of golf wasn't degraded.

 

If the Marshall hadn't noticed and your friend kept throwing the ball, the overall game of golf wouldn't have been degraded either. Folks playing on another course next weekend wouldn't be adversely affected.

 

Let's change the golf example just a hair:

 

A group of golfers decide they are going to change the signs that state how many yards the pin is from the tee's. They only change the number a little bit. The vast majority of golfers never notice and it doesn't affect them, but when the professional golfers play the course, it causes them to overshoot and choose the wrong clubs. They may not even know that they are being affected.

 

When you mark a cache "Found", you are not just playing your own game, you are telling others a lie, which may change how they play their game, possibly without them ever knowing that they were lied to. Maybe not the worlds worst fib.. These examples don't take into account that the player is passing along bad information to other players, that may use that information in their game.

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My buddy was frustrated one day and threw his ball a couple of times, (and his putter into the woods). Although we weren't competing, I know that some in our group got tired of it. The Marshall also caught him and asked him to stop throwing his ball. I didn't ask the Marshall why my friend wasn't allowed to throw his ball considering it wasn't hurting anyone else, but I suspect he might have answered something along the lines of, "that's not golf, our course is for golf, if you want to throw balls then go the to the baseball diamond down the road". Maybe the Marshall was just protecting the integrity of how the game was played on his course.

Sorry to pull up a quote from two pages ago, but I've been on the road all day and just sat down to read these.

 

I like this example, and think it fits in well with what others were saying about a few people kicking a ball not degrading golf....

 

If Golf had logs that gave you information about the hole I'd buy the analogy. Instead I think it's closer to the "use a GPS don't use a GPS debate". Or maybe the Three question of "if I by buddy acutally finds the cache and I'm' standing 2' over did I really find it debate.

 

I think gophers degrade golfing but not caching.

 

On second thought maybe if you kicked the cache container over like the ball I can also see the comparison.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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My buddy was frustrated one day and threw his ball a couple of times, (and his putter into the woods). Although we weren't competing, I know that some in our group got tired of it. The Marshall also caught him and asked him to stop throwing his ball. I didn't ask the Marshall why my friend wasn't allowed to throw his ball considering it wasn't hurting anyone else, but I suspect he might have answered something along the lines of, "that's not golf, our course is for golf, if you want to throw balls then go the to the baseball diamond down the road". Maybe the Marshall was just protecting the integrity of how the game was played on his course.

Sorry to pull up a quote from two pages ago, but I've been on the road all day and just sat down to read these.

 

I like this example, and think it fits in well with what others were saying about a few people kicking a ball not degrading golf. In your example I'd say the Marshall was like the cache owner, and was doing his job. He choose to stop your friend from false logging (throwing the ball) and deleted his log. The Marshall could have decided to ignore it and let it continue, but then if the reviewers caught him (his bosses) he'd have his cache archived (get fired). The Marshall was doing what he was supposed to.

 

The overall game of golf wasn't degraded.

Exactly, the Marshall was doing what he was supposed to. The Marshall didn't need to justify his actions by citing specific negative impacts of throwing the ball, nor did the Marshall avoid the situation even though it wasn't hurting anyone else. The Marshall was doing his job to uphold the integrity of the game. The Marshall wouldn't have cared if we grounded a club in the sand trap, but drew the line at something that was obviously not golf.

 

If people on the course were allowed to do pretty well much whatever they wanted, and golfers and marshalls ignored it, then there would eventually be enough bad apples on the course that it would negatively impact the games of the legitimate golfers. Fortunately for golf this isn't the case.

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When you mark a cache "Found", you are not just playing your own game, you are telling others a lie, which may change how they play their game, possibly without them ever knowing that they were lied to. Maybe not the worlds worst fib.. These examples don't take into account that the player is passing along bad information to other players, that may use that information in their game.
I would think that the percentage of this would be somewhere around the inperceivable range. The example everyone keeps using is flawed, badly flawed, and no one seems to pick up on it.

 

As stated several times before but for some reason overlooked, if someone posts a find to a cache and then another cacher goes to find it, they have no way to know if they just couldn't find it (DNF) or if it is missing. If it's determined at a later time it was missing, there is NO WAY to prove it went missing BEFORE rather then AFTER the last person entered a find. If the cache is MISSING the log book is GONE so there is no proof. So how do you determine the cache was gone prior to their visit?????? So if it went missing AFTER they found it rather then BEFORE, is your experience ANY DIFFERENT???? No!

 

There was only ONE example of this given in the last 31 pages and even that was stated that there was a possibility that it went missing AFTER the last person logged the find so throw it out!!!! No admissable evidence. If this "possible" situation is the only evidence given that a fake log affects other cachers then I think Signal the Judge would be throwing the case out with yesterday's trash and we have nothing showing fake logs do anything bad for geocaching other then impacting the purity and honesty of the game and it's players....

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If the amount of fake logs somehow reached a level of 10% (for example), then it would not be so much benign anymore, and would pose a problem.
What problem? If it didn't affect another else directly and the log entires looked valid, what problem would it pose? I doubt a very big percentage of well hidden caches go missing so the chances of crossing a fake log with a missing cache that doesn't have a responsible owner checking on it is pretty dang slim. Going back to the closest analogy, I'd bet that 90% or more of recreational golfers cheat the rules in some way or another and I'd bet you'd be hard pressed to find one in the millions of golfers who would state that this cheating has degraded the game of golf in any way.
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Exactly, the Marshall was doing what he was supposed to. The Marshall didn't need to justify his actions by citing specific negative impacts of throwing the ball, nor did the Marshall avoid the situation even though it wasn't hurting anyone else. The Marshall was doing his job to uphold the integrity of the game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! :lol: The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities. :)
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In my short time geocaching I have observed quite a few behaviors that degrade the integrity of the game:

 

false logs

false discoveries of trackable items

false DNFs

arm chair caching

team caching (where one person makes the find, but the entire team takes credit) :)

etc.

 

What are you gonna do? :lol:

 

I was just called on what could have looked like a false DNF on my part, so I actually posted a picture of the site (with me at it). The other cacher was not being rude, and I was happy to do it. I can't imagine why someone would lie about something like that?! I wondered about the team credit thingie at first, but I think that as long as you identify yourself as a team, that's cool. We're not out to win any contests.

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Exactly, the Marshall was doing what he was supposed to. The Marshall didn't need to justify his actions by citing specific negative impacts of throwing the ball, nor did the Marshall avoid the situation even though it wasn't hurting anyone else. The Marshall was doing his job to uphold the integrity of the game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! :) The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities. :lol:

 

Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf? I co-own a golf course, we do care about the integrity of the game and the course as well. You come out and play at our course and we're going to be watching (as best we can, we're not baby-sitters).

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record (liken this to falsely claiming to find a hard cache), you're score will be posted in the clubhouse (much like your find is shown on the cache page for all fellow hunters who have that cache on watch) for others to see and try to beat (and others WILL try). You brag about a hole-in-one (liken to faking a day's finds of number runs or reaching a few high find milestones) and that is put in the paper, you are awarded prizes (much like the awards given to milestone makers??) by local businesses and golf equipment manufacturers (manufacturers of golf balls, clubs, gloves etc that you used while lying about this feat). No matter how much you want to say that this isn't a competition, there are those who do "keep score" (not myself), there are those who look for the "course record", there are those who award the "hole-in-ones".

 

Does that course record mean anything at another course? SURE! My "stats" are carried over to wherever we go (say like Tiger Woods is expected to win many of the touney's he's entered in), I'm given a low handicap. Similarly, one who lies about their finds elsewhere have their stats follow them. You come to my "course" (cache) with a (bloated) high find count and post a find to a cache which some hadn't found (because it's missing), I'm more likely to believe you found it and it could stop me from making a check on my missing cache. My finding you lied (if I get suspicious and check on this) really hurts your integrity, I would likely tell all my friends and word will spread rapidly (seen this happen so I know this to be true). Tell me that those who honored this person with awards and events aren't going to be a bit peeved!

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Exactly, the Marshall was doing what he was supposed to. The Marshall didn't need to justify his actions by citing specific negative impacts of throwing the ball, nor did the Marshall avoid the situation even though it wasn't hurting anyone else. The Marshall was doing his job to uphold the integrity of the game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! :) The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities. :lol:

 

Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf? I co-own a golf course, we do care about the integrity of the game and the course as well. You come out and play at our course and we're going to be watching (as best we can, we're not baby-sitters).

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record (liken this to falsely claiming to find a hard cache), you're score will be posted in the clubhouse (much like your find is shown on the cache page for all fellow hunters who have that cache on watch) for others to see and try to beat (and others WILL try). You brag about a hole-in-one (liken to faking a day's finds of number runs or reaching a few high find milestones) and that is put in the paper, you are awarded prizes (much like the awards given to milestone makers??) by local businesses and golf equipment manufacturers (manufacturers of golf balls, clubs, gloves etc that you used while lying about this feat). No matter how much you want to say that this isn't a competition, there are those who do "keep score" (not myself), there are those who look for the "course record", there are those who award the "hole-in-ones".

 

Does that course record mean anything at another course? SURE! My "stats" are carried over to wherever we go (say like Tiger Woods is expected to win many of the touney's he's entered in), I'm given a low handicap. Similarly, one who lies about their finds elsewhere have their stats follow them. You come to my "course" (cache) with a (bloated) high find count and post a find to a cache which some hadn't found (because it's missing), I'm more likely to believe you found it and it could stop me from making a check on my missing cache. My finding you lied (if I get suspicious and check on this) really hurts your integrity, I would likely tell all my friends and word will spread rapidly (seen this happen so I know this to be true). Tell me that those who honored this person with awards and events aren't going to be a bit peeved!

 

Since we are talking about golf, let me take a shot at it with my foot wedge (winter rules!). Posted scores only matter in competetive club golf, in which case one normally has witnesses (playing partners) who sign card (verify find). The lone golfer who claims a hole-in-one or to have broken the club record is given no creedance (but if the hole-in-oner is buying drinks, I will have one), nor would that likely ever make the local papers. USGA rules don't count solo unwitnessed rounds in official handicaps. So going back to caching, if one is competing than it is legitimate to have a system in place for verification of finds. If one is not competing than the issue is moot. Although I agree with others that it is more than a little pathetic for someone to log caches that he/she did not find (irrespective of signing logbook silliness), just as in golf it would be to claim a false hole in one.

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Exactly, the Marshall was doing what he was supposed to. The Marshall didn't need to justify his actions by citing specific negative impacts of throwing the ball, nor did the Marshall avoid the situation even though it wasn't hurting anyone else. The Marshall was doing his job to uphold the integrity of the game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! :) The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities. :lol:

 

Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf? I co-own a golf course, we do care about the integrity of the game and the course as well. You come out and play at our course and we're going to be watching (as best we can, we're not baby-sitters).

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record (liken this to falsely claiming to find a hard cache), you're score will be posted in the clubhouse (much like your find is shown on the cache page for all fellow hunters who have that cache on watch) for others to see and try to beat (and others WILL try). You brag about a hole-in-one (liken to faking a day's finds of number runs or reaching a few high find milestones) and that is put in the paper, you are awarded prizes (much like the awards given to milestone makers??) by local businesses and golf equipment manufacturers (manufacturers of golf balls, clubs, gloves etc that you used while lying about this feat). No matter how much you want to say that this isn't a competition, there are those who do "keep score" (not myself), there are those who look for the "course record", there are those who award the "hole-in-ones".

 

Does that course record mean anything at another course? SURE! My "stats" are carried over to wherever we go (say like Tiger Woods is expected to win many of the touney's he's entered in), I'm given a low handicap. Similarly, one who lies about their finds elsewhere have their stats follow them. You come to my "course" (cache) with a (bloated) high find count and post a find to a cache which some hadn't found (because it's missing), I'm more likely to believe you found it and it could stop me from making a check on my missing cache. My finding you lied (if I get suspicious and check on this) really hurts your integrity, I would likely tell all my friends and word will spread rapidly (seen this happen so I know this to be true). Tell me that those who honored this person with awards and events aren't going to be a bit peeved!

 

Since we are talking about golf, let me take a shot at it with my foot wedge (winter rules!). Posted scores only matter in competetive club golf, in which case one normally has witnesses (playing partners) who sign card (verify find). The lone golfer who claims a hole-in-one or to have broken the club record is given no creedance (but if the hole-in-oner is buying drinks, I will have one), nor would that likely ever make the local papers. USGA rules don't count solo unwitnessed rounds in official handicaps. So going back to caching, if one is competing than it is legitimate to have a system in place for verification of finds. If one is not competing than the issue is moot. Although I agree with others that it is more than a little pathetic for someone to log caches that he/she did not find (irrespective of signing logbook silliness), just as in golf it would be to claim a false hole in one.

 

I believe are mistaken here, but this is merely MHO. We've owned our course for 26 (or is it 27 now) years, I could tell you stories! Our course is a local course (not sure what you mean by competitive courses???), we're friends with MANY other course owners. There are club record cards posted in most every course I've visited (literally...and we have played some PGA courses), my brother holds the record for our course (he beat my 31 on the long par 36 side a few years ago...dirty dog), yet he was alone at the time. Most courses also know their customers, some have been around for years and years being valued customers. We tend to believe our customers until given reason not to. If you come in and claim a HIO at my course (and I have never seen you before), I'm STILL going to call the paper and send in whatever info to the golf manufacturers...yes, even if alone (why not?? I'd not want to alienate any potential customers). It's happened more than once where we've later found out the person lied!

 

And, btw...where do you play? USGA handicaps? We're not talking the PGA here, we're talking a local course as ours is! We don't bother with Handicomp (used to when we had our club tourneys, but only as a way to keep handicaps...BUT, you enter your scores for your rounds played whether alone or with others...AND people tend to fudge numbers UP for a higher handicap), there's no official PGA score keepers to attest your scores.

 

ALSO, I've seen this a few times and we even know who usually does this, there are those who WILL lie for a friend!! Say you and a few buddies are out playing and you're having a good game. You screw up on a hole and decide to play a mulligan. Others agree and you hit a beautiful shot which does help your score. Or, the group who'd lie just to try to impress, or the group who...it happens more than you'd think! I've seen this happen even in tournaments! W/o proof or a strong suspicion, we'll not call you out, but your actions will then become suspect and you will be viewed accordingly...we might even make rules to try to keep you honest (much like what is being done when discussing ideas here in the forums), like putting problem golfers with those who are known to be honest. This doesn't ALWAYS work as sometimes, the corrupt few can sway the honest or even deceive them!

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Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf?
And so does the Verizon tech support people who run you in circles until you toss your phone at the wall, and so does the Midas repair guy who forgot to tighten 'all' the lug nuts, and so does the Home Depot paint guy who mixed the colors wrong in that last can of paint.... Just the way of the world, not a lot of pride in workmanship.

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.
If it's not affecting anyone else's game, not damaging any property or bothering any other 'customers' then I doubt anyone would say a thing. If someone's not taking a penalty drop correctly I don't think ANYONE from the golf course will be rushing up to correct their misapplication of the rules.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record
Once you make any comparison a COMPETITION all bets are off (so to speak). Geocaching is not competitive, it's not comparative, there are no records or rewards. No anlaogy that has anything to do with winning or beating or records or numbers or milestones has anything to do with geocaching.
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Is it too late for another analogy?

 

Professional Baseball and steroid use. Back in the very beginning when it started to become a problem, the excuse was always that it was not a widespread problem. And it really didn't affect anyone in any meaningful way. It was left unchecked.. Look where we are now..

OK. Look where we are.

 

A bunch of people in Congress (forum denizens) are taking a ton of their time arguing about something that would be better handled by local team owners (cache owners).

 

That's a great analogy.

Edited by sbell111
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Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf?
And so does the Verizon tech support people who run you in circles until you toss your phone at the wall, and so does the Midas repair guy who forgot to tighten 'all' the lug nuts, and so does the Home Depot paint guy who mixed the colors wrong in that last can of paint.... Just the way of the world, not a lot of pride in workmanship.

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.
If it's not affecting anyone else's game, not damaging any property or bothering any other 'customers' then I doubt anyone would say a thing. If someone's not taking a penalty drop correctly I don't think ANYONE from the golf course will be rushing up to correct their misapplication of the rules.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record
Once you make any comparison a COMPETITION all bets are off (so to speak). Geocaching is not competitive, it's not comparative, there are no records or rewards. No anlaogy that has anything to do with winning or beating or records or numbers or milestones has anything to do with geocaching.

 

Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers? Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out? Whether you want to believe it or not, even non-competitive sports or activities keep score! Your scores do follow around (if you are a fast runner or thought to be a good batter, you are picked first for different games in school and such). If someone thinks you are a good golfer, you might be asked to play with a threesome of actual good golfers...imagine the surprise when you are seen to not be as good as you are! You don't have to compete for your abilities (or perceived abilities) to be known.

 

edit for spelling of course!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers?
Don't know any events held to honor a cacher people didn't personally know and cache with. Anyone that was deceitful enough to falsify logs would be like that in other phases of their lives and people who knew them would know that. The events I have seen to honor cacher milestones and held to honor honorable people and not just for their numbers.

 

Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out?
You do not AUTOMATICALLY get these things for reaching some milestone. You get these things from people who know you and know your accomplishments. Someone who armchair caches and has 10,000 finds but never cached WITH anyone would never get a thing.

 

And as far as the people that DID get things like the "Golden Ammo Can" award, how were ALL their finds validated??????? How did the people giving the awards KNOW that those people didn't fake 5% or 25% or some percentage of their finds????? They didn't. They TRUSTED them to be honorable people worthy of recognition.

 

Unless you're validating 100% of the logs then you NEVER will know how honest anyone is and even if you TRIED to validate 100% of the finds, people WILL find away around your checks and balances.

 

Anyone who is geocaching for some pat on the back, some award, or some recognition from someone else is totally missing the boat.....

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Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf?
And so does the Verizon tech support people who run you in circles until you toss your phone at the wall, and so does the Midas repair guy who forgot to tighten 'all' the lug nuts, and so does the Home Depot paint guy who mixed the colors wrong in that last can of paint.... Just the way of the world, not a lot of pride in workmanship.

 

As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone.
If it's not affecting anyone else's game, not damaging any property or bothering any other 'customers' then I doubt anyone would say a thing. If someone's not taking a penalty drop correctly I don't think ANYONE from the golf course will be rushing up to correct their misapplication of the rules.

 

HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record
Once you make any comparison a COMPETITION all bets are off (so to speak). Geocaching is not competitive, it's not comparative, there are no records or rewards. No anlaogy that has anything to do with winning or beating or records or numbers or milestones has anything to do with geocaching.

 

Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers? Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out? Whether you want to believe it or not, even non-competitive sports or activities keep score! Your scores do follow around (if you are a fast runner or thought to be a good batter, you are picked first for different games in school and such). If someone thinks you are a good golfer, you might be asked to play with a threesome of actual good golfers...imagine the surprise when you are seen to not be as good as you are! You don't have to compete for your abilities (or perceived abilities) to be known.

 

edit for spelling of course!

Of course people do those things. I've personally created and given an award for someone's 1000th find. However, as people like to say, that's not geocaching. Awards and competitions are part of some people's version of the game, but are not integral to the game. Scoring is integral to golf -- if you go to the putting green or driving range, you're not "playing golf". It's very possible to geocache without competing and scoring.

 

By the way, I appreciate you whittling the myriad wild golf analogies in this thread down to something that makes some sense.

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers?
Don't know any events held to honor a cacher people didn't personally know and cache with. Anyone that was deceitful enough to falsify logs would be like that in other phases of their lives and people who knew them would know that. The events I have seen to honor cacher milestones and held to honor honorable people and not just for their numbers.

 

Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out?
You do not AUTOMATICALLY get these things for reaching some milestone. You get these things from people who know you and know your accomplishments. Someone who armchair caches and has 10,000 finds but never cached WITH anyone would never get a thing.

 

And as far as the people that DID get things like the "Golden Ammo Can" award, how were ALL their finds validated??????? How did the people giving the awards KNOW that those people didn't fake 5% or 25% or some percentage of their finds????? They didn't. They TRUSTED them to be honorable people worthy of recognition.

 

Unless you're validating 100% of the logs then you NEVER will know how honest anyone is and even if you TRIED to validate 100% of the finds, people WILL find away around your checks and balances.

 

Anyone who is geocaching for some pat on the back, some award, or some recognition from someone else is totally missing the boat.....

Really? just knowing them means they don't cheat? My uncle cheats at golf, he'll try to get you to cheat in tourneys too...and I know him!

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Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers?
Don't know any events held to honor a cacher people didn't personally know and cache with. Anyone that was deceitful enough to falsify logs would be like that in other phases of their lives and people who knew them would know that. The events I have seen to honor cacher milestones and held to honor honorable people and not just for their numbers.

 

Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out?
You do not AUTOMATICALLY get these things for reaching some milestone. You get these things from people who know you and know your accomplishments. Someone who armchair caches and has 10,000 finds but never cached WITH anyone would never get a thing.

 

And as far as the people that DID get things like the "Golden Ammo Can" award, how were ALL their finds validated??????? How did the people giving the awards KNOW that those people didn't fake 5% or 25% or some percentage of their finds????? They didn't. They TRUSTED them to be honorable people worthy of recognition.

 

Unless you're validating 100% of the logs then you NEVER will know how honest anyone is and even if you TRIED to validate 100% of the finds, people WILL find away around your checks and balances.

 

Anyone who is geocaching for some pat on the back, some award, or some recognition from someone else is totally missing the boat.....

Really? just knowing them means they don't cheat? My uncle cheats at golf, he'll try to get you to cheat in tourneys too...and I know him!

... and yet, the game of golf marches on. People aren't ashamed to be called 'golfer' because your uncle is a doof.

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Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers?
Don't know any events held to honor a cacher people didn't personally know and cache with. Anyone that was deceitful enough to falsify logs would be like that in other phases of their lives and people who knew them would know that. The events I have seen to honor cacher milestones and held to honor honorable people and not just for their numbers.

 

Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out?
You do not AUTOMATICALLY get these things for reaching some milestone. You get these things from people who know you and know your accomplishments. Someone who armchair caches and has 10,000 finds but never cached WITH anyone would never get a thing.

 

And as far as the people that DID get things like the "Golden Ammo Can" award, how were ALL their finds validated??????? How did the people giving the awards KNOW that those people didn't fake 5% or 25% or some percentage of their finds????? They didn't. They TRUSTED them to be honorable people worthy of recognition.

 

Unless you're validating 100% of the logs then you NEVER will know how honest anyone is and even if you TRIED to validate 100% of the finds, people WILL find away around your checks and balances.

 

Anyone who is geocaching for some pat on the back, some award, or some recognition from someone else is totally missing the boat.....

Really? just knowing them means they don't cheat? My uncle cheats at golf, he'll try to get you to cheat in tourneys too...and I know him!

... and yet, the game of golf marches on. People aren't ashamed to be called 'golfer' because your uncle is a doof.

This doesn't mean golf isn't adversely affected...for those who golf with him or those who have or will golf with him. I have golfed with him therefore, my integrity is now questionable to others who know this (maybe not to those who actually KNOW mw, but to the casual "friend"...), will I also cheat simply because I've played with this guy or play with this guy on any regular or somewhat regular basis? I know I wonder about some of those who join him....

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Are you denying that people host events JUST to honor milestones made by cachers?
Don't know any events held to honor a cacher people didn't personally know and cache with. Anyone that was deceitful enough to falsify logs would be like that in other phases of their lives and people who knew them would know that. The events I have seen to honor cacher milestones and held to honor honorable people and not just for their numbers.

 

Are you denying the "Golden Ammo Can" awards I've seen given out? Are you denying the milestone coins being handed out?
You do not AUTOMATICALLY get these things for reaching some milestone. You get these things from people who know you and know your accomplishments. Someone who armchair caches and has 10,000 finds but never cached WITH anyone would never get a thing.

 

And as far as the people that DID get things like the "Golden Ammo Can" award, how were ALL their finds validated??????? How did the people giving the awards KNOW that those people didn't fake 5% or 25% or some percentage of their finds????? They didn't. They TRUSTED them to be honorable people worthy of recognition.

 

Unless you're validating 100% of the logs then you NEVER will know how honest anyone is and even if you TRIED to validate 100% of the finds, people WILL find away around your checks and balances.

 

Anyone who is geocaching for some pat on the back, some award, or some recognition from someone else is totally missing the boat.....

Really? just knowing them means they don't cheat? My uncle cheats at golf, he'll try to get you to cheat in tourneys too...and I know him!

... and yet, the game of golf marches on. People aren't ashamed to be called 'golfer' because your uncle is a doof.

This doesn't mean golf isn't adversely affected...for those who golf with him or those who have or will golf with him. I have golfed with him therefore, my integrity is now questionable to others who know this (maybe not to those who actually KNOW mw, but to the casual "friend"...), will I also cheat simply because I've played with this guy or play with this guy on any regular or somewhat regular basis? I know I wonder about some of those who join him....

Whether or not he embarrasses his friends and family has no bearing on the OP's position that the game, itself, is being degraded and that 'what it means to be a geocacher' (golfer) is being degraded. Edited by sbell111
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We've owned our course for 26 (or is it 27 now) years, I could tell you stories! Our course is a local course (not sure what you mean by competitive courses???), we're friends with MANY other course owners. There are club record cards posted in most every course I've visited (literally...and we have played some PGA courses), my brother holds the record for our course (he beat my 31 on the long par 36 side a few years ago...dirty dog), yet he was alone at the time. Most courses also know their customers, some have been around for years and years being valued customers. We tend to believe our customers until given reason not to. If you come in and claim a HIO at my course (and I have never seen you before), I'm STILL going to call the paper and send in whatever info to the golf manufacturers...yes, even if alone (why not?? I'd not want to alienate any potential customers). It's happened more than once where we've later found out the person lied!

Your brother claims the course record from a round he played by himself and you post it in the club house. How do you know he posted his score honestly? I suspect that when his tee shot on the 3rd hole went out of bounds he just penciled in a score and went on to the next hole. He didn't even play the 3rd hole. I can't prove this, maybe if there was a camera at each hole to take a picture we could stop the degradation of golf.

 

I did see that letter you posted in club house:

Greetings from Germany. I found your golf course on Google Earth and I played a virtual round of 30. Thanks for the fun round of golf.

 

I supposed you could've thrown that letter in the trash and protected the reputation of golf, but instead you posted it and we all get a good laugh. :)

 

...we might even make rules to try to keep you honest (much like what is being done when discussing ideas here in the forums), like putting problem golfers with those who are known to be honest. This doesn't ALWAYS work as sometimes, the corrupt few can sway the honest or even deceive them!

I also object to the implications that golfers with putting problems are not honest.
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We've owned our course for 26 (or is it 27 now) years, I could tell you stories! Our course is a local course (not sure what you mean by competitive courses???), we're friends with MANY other course owners. There are club record cards posted in most every course I've visited (literally...and we have played some PGA courses), my brother holds the record for our course (he beat my 31 on the long par 36 side a few years ago...dirty dog), yet he was alone at the time. Most courses also know their customers, some have been around for years and years being valued customers. We tend to believe our customers until given reason not to. If you come in and claim a HIO at my course (and I have never seen you before), I'm STILL going to call the paper and send in whatever info to the golf manufacturers...yes, even if alone (why not?? I'd not want to alienate any potential customers). It's happened more than once where we've later found out the person lied!

Your brother claims the course record from a round he played by himself and you post it in the club house. How do you know he posted his score honestly? I suspect that when his tee shot on the 3rd hole went out of bounds he just penciled in a score and went on to the next hole. He didn't even play the 3rd hole. I can't prove this, maybe if there was a camera at each hole to take a picture we could stop the degradation of golf.

 

I did see that letter you posted in club house:

Greetings from Germany. I found your golf course on Google Earth and I played a virtual round of 30. Thanks for the fun round of golf.

 

I supposed you could've thrown that letter in the trash and protected the reputation of golf, but instead you posted it and we all get a good laugh. :)

 

...we might even make rules to try to keep you honest (much like what is being done when discussing ideas here in the forums), like putting problem golfers with those who are known to be honest. This doesn't ALWAYS work as sometimes, the corrupt few can sway the honest or even deceive them!

I also object to the implications that golfers with putting problems are not honest.

Had it been someone else, I might have been a bit hard pressed to believe it, but knowing my brother's ability, I took him at his word! Also, I know my brother to be honest, his integrity has been proven over a long period of time!

 

btw...I did have a hole in one...twice...once by myself and once while in a tourney (I won a car). The more memorable one (for me) was the one when I was alone...it was an awesome shot (not luck as sometimes is the case), hit right where I planned and rolled 4' into the hole!

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Really? just knowing them means they don't cheat? My uncle cheats at golf, he'll try to get you to cheat in tourneys too...and I know him!
The point was that someone who would falsify logs probably isn't the kind of person who would have friends who think honorably enough about them to hold an event on their behalf. Your Uncle cheats at golf and you know he does it, so would you honor him with some award because of a golf score he said he got? Highly doubt it....
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btw...I did have a hole in one...twice...once by myself and once while in a tourney (I won a car). The more memorable one (for me) was the one when I was alone...it was an awesome shot (not luck as sometimes is the case), hit right where I planned and rolled 4' into the hole!
Early on in the thread, someone made the point that one should never believe the junk that they read on the internet. Thanks for proving the point.
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btw...I did have a hole in one...twice...once by myself and once while in a tourney (I won a car). The more memorable one (for me) was the one when I was alone...it was an awesome shot (not luck as sometimes is the case), hit right where I planned and rolled 4' into the hole!
Early on in the thread, someone made the point that one should never believe the junk that they read on the internet. Thanks for proving the point.

That's a MUCH more polite way to say you think I'm lying...THANKS!!

 

I wouldn't lie about it. It matters not to me whether you believe it, so I don't understand the need to lie! I also once hit a hole in one on a longer par 3 (I believe it was 185 yards, I used my 9 iron). I noticed the flag start to "wave" as I'm high-fiving my friends, but was surprised as all get out when the flag started waving faster and faster...until the ball shot back out of the hole and landed about 70' from the hole...off the green! The ball had hit right on the edge of the cup and "rattled" the flag. I guess the flag didn't like that, so it threw my ball out of the hole...I bogeyed!

 

ANYWAYS...as I've said, this will go on (the cheating or allowing of cheating) as long as the PTB and cachers allow it to. IF and when it becomes a bigger problem, we'll see something done about it. Until then?

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This is the thread that never ends

Yes it goes on and on my friends

Some people started griping cause they don't like phony logs

While others just defended it on principle because

This is the thread that never ends... :)

 

I know. Nobody is defending phony logs. I had a limited amount of space to sum it up and still make it match the tune! :)

 

Edit: This was nothing more than a feeble attempt at humor. Please don't hate on me for it.

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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Whether or not he embarrasses his friends and family has no bearing on the OP's position that the game, itself, is being degraded and that 'what it means to be a geocacher' (golfer) is being degraded.
The whole issue boils down to the question if someone else's pleasure doing geocaching is adversely affected by a falsified log. The anaolgy to golf may be a little off base as golf has variations that ARE competitive and that isn't GC. A better anaolgy would be a bunch of people sitting around playing solitaire. If everyone else in the room pulled an extra card every time they were stumped would it affect your pleasure in playing???? Even if you knew they were doing it and they were open about it and even talked about it???? No way! Nothing they could do with their deck of cards would affect you unless you were concerned about them breaking the rules or drifting from the pure game of solitaire. But how they have fun with it is their business, not yours, unless you think your way to play or the hard line rules way to play is the ONLY way to play and you feel obligated to push your opinion on them.

 

Geocaching is a game played by individuals. There is no relationship between what you do to what the next person does as there is no weighing of results except for people that wish to do that. But they need to know that weighing results is not the pure game of geocaching which is what is being debated here. Just like with solitaire, if you looked over their shoulder or listened to them talk of their experience and based your play on them then you're letting what they do alter your game. Just like reading logs from other users. There are risks involved with GC just like anything else and if anyone could ever "prove" a false log on a regular cache actually caused a problem we'd find you probably have a higher chance of winning the lottery.

 

From what I'm reading people just don't like false logs on their cache pages but that's an owner issue, not a player issue. And this debate is about "playing" the game and not managing it.

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ANYWAYS...as I've said, this will go on (the cheating or allowing of cheating) as long as the PTB and cachers allow it to. IF and when it becomes a bigger problem, we'll see something done about it. Until then?
Still yet to see a falsified log actually causing an actual geocaching problem... ever. Just seems like some owners don't like false logs on their cache pages and don't like people cheating, but haven't seen or read anything showing they caused a problem.

 

I don't like seeing people cheat at solitaire. But it hasn't caused a problem. I just don't like cheaters. Would I delete a log I proved was fake? Heck yeah. Will I be doing it to prevent a problem? Nope. I just don't like cheaters.

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Geocaching is a game played by individuals. There is no relationship between what you do to what the next person does as there is no weighing of results except for people that wish to do that.

 

You can't say there is no relationship and then say "except"... Everyone is NOT playing their own game, we may not be competing, but what others do can affect the next person that comes by the cache. If everyone was playing their own game, leaving a mouse trap in the cache would be okay.. Quit saying there is no relationship between cachers, because there clearly is.. This is NOT solitaire

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btw...I did have a hole in one...twice...once by myself and once while in a tourney (I won a car). The more memorable one (for me) was the one when I was alone...it was an awesome shot (not luck as sometimes is the case), hit right where I planned and rolled 4' into the hole!
Early on in the thread, someone made the point that one should never believe the junk that they read on the internet. Thanks for proving the point.

That's a MUCH more polite way to say you think I'm lying...THANKS!!

 

I wouldn't lie about it. It matters not to me whether you believe it, so I don't understand the need to lie! I also once hit a hole in one on a longer par 3 (I believe it was 185 yards, I used my 9 iron). I noticed the flag start to "wave" as I'm high-fiving my friends, but was surprised as all get out when the flag started waving faster and faster...until the ball shot back out of the hole and landed about 70' from the hole...off the green! The ball had hit right on the edge of the cup and "rattled" the flag. I guess the flag didn't like that, so it threw my ball out of the hole...I bogeyed!

 

ANYWAYS...as I've said, this will go on (the cheating or allowing of cheating) as long as the PTB and cachers allow it to. IF and when it becomes a bigger problem, we'll see something done about it. Until then?

I did not take the position that you were lying. While I don't believe you, I recognize that you may be telling the truth.

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...Still yet to see a falsified log actually causing an actual geocaching problem... ever....

 

Then you have been lucky. What counts as a geocaching problem? Quite a few have been pointed out in the thread. Either those are not problems in your book, you don't see the connection or you have something else in mind entirly. So what counts a problem?

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...Still yet to see a falsified log actually causing an actual geocaching problem... ever....

 

Then you have been lucky. What counts as a geocaching problem? Quite a few have been pointed out in the thread. Either those are not problems in your book, you don't see the connection or you have something else in mind entirly. So what counts a problem?

I think that his point was that he's never noticed a fake log or been affected by one.

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You can't say there is no relationship and then say "except"... Everyone is NOT playing their own game, we may not be competing, but what others do can affect the next person that comes by the cache. If everyone was playing their own game, leaving a mouse trap in the cache would be okay.. Quit saying there is no relationship between cachers, because there clearly is.. This is NOT solitaire
Quit bringing in examples where others do something physically to a cache to affect others... we're speaking about posting a fake log and that is the only thing this thread is about. Does not have anything to do with someone throwing a cache off a cliff or leaving one wide open or putting a spring load trap inside. We're talking about someone posting a find on the website for a cache they didn't physically visit. Unless someone spits up an example of a fake log on a regular cache causing ANY actual problem beyond upsetting the owner because someone's cheating, then the whole thread is referencing a hypothetical situation.
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Then you have been lucky. What counts as a geocaching problem? Quite a few have been pointed out in the thread. Either those are not problems in your book, you don't see the connection or you have something else in mind entirly. So what counts a problem?
The only thing I have seen pointed out is this :

 

1 - Problems with fake logs on a virtual cache that was archived which is a mute point since virtuals are no longer allowed (possibly becuase of thier vulnerability to that happening)

 

2 - One example when someone "thinks" someone posted a fake log on a missing cache which someone went after. Which since there is no log book to check, no one can prove the cache didn't disappear AFTER the log entry so this example is based on assumptions.

 

That's it... where's the big problems?

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I think that his point was that he's never noticed a fake log or been affected by one.
Thank you as that is my point, but I still don't see where anyone has been directly affected by fake logs. I mean other then people just not liking the fact that people cheat and they feel bad because they found out a lot of them do.
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Then you have been lucky. What counts as a geocaching problem? Quite a few have been pointed out in the thread. Either those are not problems in your book, you don't see the connection or you have something else in mind entirly. So what counts a problem?
The only thing I have seen pointed out is this :

 

1 - Problems with fake logs on a virtual cache that was archived which is a mute point since virtuals are no longer allowed (possibly becuase of thier vulnerability to that happening)

 

2 - One example when someone "thinks" someone posted a fake log on a missing cache which someone went after. Which since there is no log book to check, no one can prove the cache didn't disappear AFTER the log entry so this example is based on assumptions.

 

That's it... where's the big problems?

 

1) Same issue with a regular cache would result in the same archival. All the other issues are also still valid.

 

2) A fake log is a fake log and causes problems by it's being fake. It's not about 'thinking it's fake, or proving it's fake. The problems will exist because people act on them as if they are real, or have to act on them becaues they need to waste time verifying they are fake.

 

3) I may have found an example of a benign fake log. Logs so fake that nobody has any doubt they are exactly that. Meaning nobody acts on them like a real log. They still push a legit log off the 5 log limit in a PQ.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...&submit4=Go

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3) I may have found an example of a benign fake log. Logs so fake that nobody has any doubt they are exactly that. Meaning nobody acts on them like a real log. They still push a legit log off the 5 log limit in a PQ.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...&submit4=Go

I don't think that just because a log that clearly isn't a Find pushes one of the last 5 off a PQ it necessarily means it has degraded the game.

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As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities).

Sounds like your typical celebrity Pro-Am tournament to me...

 

Replace your divots -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Repair your ball marks -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Rake the sand -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Put your crap in the trash can -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Keep your cart where it belongs on the course -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Remember to put the pin back in when you're done putting -- if you don't, it can screw with my game.

Don't hit into me from behind -- if you do, I'll screw with YOU!

 

Do pretty much whatever else you want to do. Invent your own scoring system or don't keep score at all. Use your putter as a cue stick to make your putts. Allow for a mulligan to be declared once at any point in the game. Ground your club. Move your ball out from behind a tree. Drive your cart into the lake.

 

We're fine.

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1) Same issue with a regular cache would result in the same archival. All the other issues are also still valid.
Examples please. Not potentials but examples. Cache numbers. Issues that happened from fake logs. We're supposed to be debating if fake logs degrade geocaching and if no one has any problems, the only thing here is people who "don't like" people entering fake logs. If they look legit and don't cause problems for other cachers, how in the heck can they degrade the game????????????

 

2) A fake log is a fake log and causes problems by it's being fake.
HUH???? How does the fact it's fake cause a problem? Describe this "problem" that the fake log causes please.

 

It's not about 'thinking it's fake, or proving it's fake. The problems will exist because people act on them as if they are real, or have to act on them becaues they need to waste time verifying they are fake.
Act on them???? HUH???? Someone types in "THTC" and that makes someone "act" differently???? The only example EVER given was a hypothetical assumption that a log entry may of been done prior to a cache disappearing rather then after but this can never be proven so it's all assumption.

 

3) I may have found an example of a benign fake log. Logs so fake that nobody has any doubt they are exactly that.
"May of found a benign fake log".... wow. And what problem did that cause?

 

Meaning nobody acts on them like a real log. They still push a legit log off the 5 log limit in a PQ.
Okay, so legit cachers enter logs and the last five logs are :

 

1)TFTH!

2)Nice hide

3)Had fun!

4)TNLN!

5)Thanks for the tour.

 

So how did those make you act differently????? Even a legit finder can enter whatever they want in the listing. They could say FOUND CACHE AND WAS CHAISED AWAY BY LARGE BLACK BEAR. FEAR OF BEING EATEN MADE US JUMP INTO THE RIVER AND SWIM BACK TO OUR CAR. BUT ENJOYED FINDING A TACO BELL AT THE END OF THE RIVER AND THE CHALLUPAS WERE EXCELLENT. Many people don't even read the hints let alone the past logs. Occasionally you can pick up a hint from a log, but if you're relying on them in order to find a cache then you better read them before you leave. That's why the GC website states :

 

Warning. Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links.

 

over the logs. In other words they might give the hide away but by the same account, don't trust what you read in the logs, just find the dang cache.

 

Sounds to me (again) like the only issue here is people don't like other people entering fake logs. No problems for other cachers so it sure doesn't degrade the game. Might degrade the owner's opinion of cachers if they find out a bunch are fake, but your run of the mill cachers probably would never even know they existed. Have not seen one spec of "problem" caused by fake logs on a regular cache and the ice being walked on trying to push the point is getting thinner by the day.

 

If I happen across a fake log I'll check into it and delete it if it proves to be one. Same goes if I have someone giving away some twist to my hide with too much detail. Same with someone making off color statements. But those are just dealing with cache maintenance and don't degrade the game any more then muggles...

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3) I may have found an example of a benign fake log. Logs so fake that nobody has any doubt they are exactly that. Meaning nobody acts on them like a real log. They still push a legit log off the 5 log limit in a PQ.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...&submit4=Go

I don't think that just because a log that clearly isn't a Find pushes one of the last 5 off a PQ it necessarily means it has degraded the game.

The answer is going to be the answer to this question. Did this make caching better for more people than not? Yes? It's a bonus. Not, it's a detriment. Neither then flip a coin.

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1) Same issue with a regular cache would result in the same archival. All the other issues are also still valid.
Examples please. Not potentials but examples. Cache numbers. Issues that happened from fake logs. We're supposed to be debating if fake logs degrade geocaching and if no one has any problems, the only thing here is people who "don't like" people entering fake logs. If they look legit and don't cause problems for other cachers, how in the heck can they degrade the game????????????...

 

You don't seem to have read the thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I haven't read the entire thread myself.

 

Any log that gives false information is a problem.

 

TFTH as fake log also says "This cahe is here and in good enough shape to find". If that's not the case and you waste yoru time seeking a cache that's MIA tha'ts a problem.

 

Revers it. "Cache is MIA, SBA" well...the reviewer is going to spend time checking on the cache owner that they could be spending on approving caches and dealing with real problems. IN turn the cache owner will need to check on the cache. Of course it's there and the log was just 'messin with ya". That's a problem.

 

If you want numbers, look them up yourself. You want cache logs and real examples sorry, I'm not going to spend my time doing your leg work. I'll give you the same offer I have the yeast guy. I'll introduce you to cachers who have had issues and you can ask them all the questions you want. Email me if you want it. Otherwise what you get are 'examples' that are not real but based on both things I've seen or things that can happen.

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