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Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?


Cedar Grove Seekers
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Good grief.

 

While it's true that any bogus logs on any cache anywhere might get you all bunched up and degrade your enjoyment of the game, I don't believe that this has been shown to degrade the game itself, as claimed by the OP.

 

Ones enjoyment of the game IS the game itself.. What would have to happen for the game to be degraded? Elimination of virtuals? That of course is never going to happen, let me try to come up with a better example. :anibad:

There's the rub. One person's degradation is another's enhancement. Some people feel that elimination of new virtual caches degraded the sport while other felt "good riddance, we've almost gotten rid of the those things. Still need to archive the grandfathered ones :ph34r: ". The threads on micros demonstrate the same thing - some people can't stand them while others believe them crucial to growth of the sport. So too with bogus logs. Some want to have the online logs pure and not have these bogus logs that annoy them them showing up. Others find that the hobby is more enjoyable, not because people are intentionally lying to mess up other cachers enjoyment, but because they can have bit of relatively benign fun by stretching the rules or playing alternative games. And some, who would never claim a false 'found it' themselves, feel the game is enhanced because instead of a lot of clunky impossible to enforce rules or limits as to when you can enter a 'found it' log, the site is based on a simple premise that cache owners are the ones responsible for deleting logs that appear to be bogus. Sure, it means that some owners may allow bogus logs and others may just not care enough to delete them but we have a system that works well enough to catch the most egregious cheaters with out burdening honest cachers or the volunteer reviewers.

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Believe it or not, rules are needed when playing with others, not just against.
Why are rules needed if not competing? If everyone in a foresome of golf has different "rules" they use when counting penalty shots, moving obstacles in the putt line, grounding the club in the sand trap, dropping the ball after hitting it in the water, keeping score, and stuff like that, it doesn't affect anyone else in the foresome UNLESS they are competing.

 

Any pair of 5 year olds in a sandbox will discover this, if they don't know it already.
Not sure what sandbox your kids played at but mine didn't have the rules posted on them. Our rules were don't hurt, don't get hurt, have fun. And if any kid tried to push their rules on other kids they'd be eating that afore mentioned sand.
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Good grief.

 

While it's true that any bogus logs on any cache anywhere might get you all bunched up and degrade your enjoyment of the game, I don't believe that this has been shown to degrade the game itself, as claimed by the OP.

Ones enjoyment of the game IS the game itself...
Really? I think not.

 

I like to bowl. It let's me get out of the house and have a bit of fun. When you factor in the fact that you can order a pizza and a pitcher of beer, it quickly becomes a perfect activity.

 

Yesterday, I went bowling after work. four teenaged guys were in the lane next to me having fun. They were clearly not obeying the rules of bowling, but they were having fun and not hurting anything so all was good. On the other side of me, was a mother and teen aged son. The son was wearing the t-shirt of a local school's bowling team. I assumed that he was on the team.

 

Strangely, this kid continually violated the cardinal rule of bowling. He would wander up to the lane, grab his ball, and bowl without paying any attention to what was going on in the lanes next to him. It was incredibly rude and I was a little bent because of his actions.

 

The game of bowling, however, was unaffected. It wasn't degraded by his inconsiderate behavior.

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As you say: “These people are not liars, they are just playing by alternative rules. The logs are generally benign.”

 

Geocaching is not a competition between players. It is simply a pastime in which people use GPS to find containers that others have hidden. That in itself is all the fun I need, and nobody robs me of even the tiniest bit of that fun when they lie to themselves in their own caching diary.

 

If I choose to go ahead and feel cheated anyway, that's my problem. :wub:

 

Actually, to a large percentage of people, geocaching is a competition between players. It would be hard not to notice all of the websites which keep stats on the players, and all of the charts and graphs in the GC profiles.

 

What is really benign, is the effect that this thread will have on stopping false logs. :anibad:

 

While false logs are generally more annoying than harmful, they do have the potential to spur someone to go out of their way to look for something that isnt there, and cause problems. ;)

 

I really do not know why some people are defending fake loggers, when they do not have any intention of creating any fake logs themselves... :ph34r:

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Good grief.

 

While it's true that any bogus logs on any cache anywhere might get you all bunched up and degrade your enjoyment of the game, I don't believe that this has been shown to degrade the game itself, as claimed by the OP.

Ones enjoyment of the game IS the game itself...
Really? I think not.

 

I like to bowl. It let's me get out of the house and have a bit of fun. When you factor in the fact that you can order a pizza and a pitcher of beer, it quickly becomes a perfect activity.

 

Yesterday, I went bowling after work. four teenaged guys were in the lane next to me having fun. They were clearly not obeying the rules of bowling, but they were having fun and not hurting anything so all was good. On the other side of me, was a mother and teen aged son. The son was wearing the t-shirt of a local school's bowling team. I assumed that he was on the team.

 

Strangely, this kid continually violated the cardinal rule of bowling. He would wander up to the lane, grab his ball, and bowl without paying any attention to what was going on in the lanes next to him. It was incredibly rude and I was a little bent because of his actions.

 

The game of bowling, however, was unaffected. It wasn't degraded by his inconsiderate behavior.

 

This is going around in circles.. What if the group got out of hand and the ball bounced into your lane? you are now affected. Maybe at first it didn't affect you, but as they got more and more out of control, it began to affect you. The management has an obligation to stop them before they begin affecting the other patrons, not after.

 

AND!

 

They may be playing the game "their" way, but does the bowling alley not have rules that everyone has to follow, regardless of how they are playing their individual games?

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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As you say: “These people are not liars, they are just playing by alternative rules. The logs are generally benign.”

 

Geocaching is not a competition between players. It is simply a pastime in which people use GPS to find containers that others have hidden. That in itself is all the fun I need, and nobody robs me of even the tiniest bit of that fun when they lie to themselves in their own caching diary.

 

If I choose to go ahead and feel cheated anyway, that's my problem. ;)

 

Actually, to a large percentage of people, geocaching is a competition between players. It would be hard not to notice all of the websites which keep stats on the players, and all of the charts and graphs in the GC profiles.

 

What is really benign, is the effect that this thread will have on stopping false logs. :ph34r:

 

While false logs are generally more annoying than harmful, they do have the potential to spur someone to go out of their way to look for something that isnt there, and cause problems. :anibad:

 

I really do not know why some people are defending fake loggers, when they do not have any intention of creating any fake logs themselves... :wub:

 

Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :P Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...

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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :anibad: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...

 

Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

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Believe it or not, rules are needed when playing with others, not just against.
Why are rules needed if not competing? If everyone in a foresome of golf has different "rules" they use when counting penalty shots, moving obstacles in the putt line, grounding the club in the sand trap, dropping the ball after hitting it in the water, keeping score, and stuff like that, it doesn't affect anyone else in the foresome UNLESS they are competing.
Any pair of 5 year olds in a sandbox will discover this, if they don't know it already.
Not sure what sandbox your kids played at but mine didn't have the rules posted on them. Our rules were don't hurt, don't get hurt, have fun. And if any kid tried to push their rules on other kids they'd be eating that afore mentioned sand.
I didn't say posted rules. The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:

 

We all need rules.

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Are you referring to maintaining your own offline database in GSAK? GS TOU doesn't look kindly on that.
No, I'm referring to clicking on the link at the very bottom of the default version of each and every cache page, right there under the fifth oldest log, where it says:

 

There are more logs. View them all on one page

 

GS TOU not only doesn't seem to be troubled by that; I'm pretty sure they actually encourage it. :anibad:

True enough, but RK's complaint (it was RK, right?) was that PQ's only send 5 logs per cache. You can build up more if you keep them in GSAK, but the Terms Of Use frown on this process.

I wasn’t talking about GSAK. Trust me, I know next to nothing about GSAK.

 

I was referring to the fact that each cacher has many choices when researching a cache before seeking it.

 

Among the options:

  • Ignore all the logs
  • Accept the default display of only the last five logs
  • Click on the link at the bottom of the cache page and review the latest log, the oldest log, and every single log in between, thereby digesting the entire online history of the cache.

RK spoke of being restricted to only having the last five logs available, and correctly pointed out that any bogus logs within the last five would reduce the number of valid logs available within the last five. I was simply pointing out that limiting oneself to having only the last five logs available is a voluntary choice, not a forced restriction. Choosing the third option above eliminates RK's concern.

Since RK was talking about logs sent in a Pocket Query, not reading logs on a cache page, your solution does not address the issue at all. The only reason I'm even bothering to continue with this part of the discussion is to point out that you have taken your own interpretation of what was posted and started arguing against it. I am simply trying to make you see that what RK was saying was completely different from what you are apparently debating.

 

Much like the OP.

Edited by Too Tall John
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I really do not know why some people are defending fake loggers, when they do not have any intention of creating any fake logs themselves... :lol:
I really don't understand why you say that people are defending false loggers. I have not seen this.

 

What I have seen is that most people in this thread agree that:

  • 'Armchair' caching is wrong because these fake logs could cause problems for some other cachers.
  • A find is an agreement between the cache logger and cache owner.
  • Cache owners are free to delete any logs that they believe to be bogus.

What I haven't seen is agreement on the OP's position that "False logs degrade the game/hobby/sport/activity of geocaching, and what it means to be a geocacher."

Edited by sbell111
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Good grief.

 

While it's true that any bogus logs on any cache anywhere might get you all bunched up and degrade your enjoyment of the game, I don't believe that this has been shown to degrade the game itself, as claimed by the OP.

Ones enjoyment of the game IS the game itself...
Really? I think not.

 

I like to bowl. It let's me get out of the house and have a bit of fun. When you factor in the fact that you can order a pizza and a pitcher of beer, it quickly becomes a perfect activity.

 

Yesterday, I went bowling after work. four teenaged guys were in the lane next to me having fun. They were clearly not obeying the rules of bowling, but they were having fun and not hurting anything so all was good. On the other side of me, was a mother and teen aged son. The son was wearing the t-shirt of a local school's bowling team. I assumed that he was on the team.

 

Strangely, this kid continually violated the cardinal rule of bowling. He would wander up to the lane, grab his ball, and bowl without paying any attention to what was going on in the lanes next to him. It was incredibly rude and I was a little bent because of his actions.

 

The game of bowling, however, was unaffected. It wasn't degraded by his inconsiderate behavior.

This is going around in circles.. What if the group got out of hand and the ball bounced into your lane? you are now affected. Maybe at first it didn't affect you, but as they got more and more out of control, it began to affect you.
You might want to take another read of my post. I never claimed to be unaffected by other bowlers. In fact, the kid on the other side of me was perturbing me pretty good and affecting my game negatively. He wasn't however, "degrading the game/hobby/sport/activity of bowling, and what it means to be a bowler."
The management has an obligation to stop them before they begin affecting the other patrons, not after.
I just have to throw up a flag at this comment.

 

You are stating that it's the management's job to lock down any activity that could change into other activity that could end up affecting other customers. That doesn't sound right to me.

They may be playing the game "their" way, but does the bowling alley not have rules that everyone has to follow, regardless of how they are playing their individual games?
Sure, but the bowling alley's rules are mostly to protect the bowling alley, not to make sure that people are sticking to the rules of bowling. Management takes no position on do-overs and score changing, as long as you pay for how many games are actually bowled, it's all good. Edited by sbell111
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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :lol: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...
Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it isn't black and white, aren't you only left with shades of grey? :wub:

 

Shades of grey are what 'lies somewhere in the middle' of black and white.

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Are you referring to maintaining your own offline database in GSAK? GS TOU doesn't look kindly on that.
No, I'm referring to clicking on the link at the very bottom of the default version of each and every cache page, right there under the fifth oldest log, where it says:

 

There are more logs. View them all on one page

 

GS TOU not only doesn't seem to be troubled by that; I'm pretty sure they actually encourage it. :lol:

True enough, but RK's complaint (it was RK, right?) was that PQ's only send 5 logs per cache. You can build up more if you keep them in GSAK, but the Terms Of Use frown on this process.

I wasn’t talking about GSAK. Trust me, I know next to nothing about GSAK.

 

I was referring to the fact that each cacher has many choices when researching a cache before seeking it.

 

Among the options:

  • Ignore all the logs
  • Accept the default display of only the last five logs
  • Click on the link at the bottom of the cache page and review the latest log, the oldest log, and every single log in between, thereby digesting the entire online history of the cache.

RK spoke of being restricted to only having the last five logs available, and correctly pointed out that any bogus logs within the last five would reduce the number of valid logs available within the last five. I was simply pointing out that limiting oneself to having only the last five logs available is a voluntary choice, not a forced restriction. Choosing the third option above eliminates RK's concern.

Since RK was talking about logs sent in a Pocket Query, not reading logs on a cache page, your solution does not address the issue at all. The only reason I'm even bothering to continue with this part of the discussion is to point out that you have taken your own interpretation of what was posted and started arguing against it. I am simply trying to make you see that what RK was saying was completely different from what you are apparently debating.

 

Much like the OP.

I invite you to take a read of post 1363.
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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :lol: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...
Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it isn't black and white, aren't you only left with shades of grey? :wub:

 

Shades of grey are what 'lies somewhere in the middle' of black and white.

To carry that further, aren't black and white simply darker and lighter shades of grey?

 

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :wub::wub::wub:

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :lol: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...
Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it isn't black and white, aren't you only left with shades of grey? :wub:

 

Shades of grey are what 'lies somewhere in the middle' of black and white.

To carry that further, aren't black and white simply darker and lighter shades of grey?

 

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :wub::wub::wub:

How many posts until the mods put this one out of it's misery?

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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :lol: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...
Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it isn't black and white, aren't you only left with shades of grey? :cry:

 

Shades of grey are what 'lies somewhere in the middle' of black and white.

To carry that further, aren't black and white simply darker and lighter shades of grey?

 

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :o:o:wub:

How many posts until the mods put this one out of it's misery?

 

:wub::wub: Either or, whichever comes first!! :wub::wub:

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Because some will defend ANYTHING...just to argue. Some will even claim they are protecting peoples' freedoms. As I've seen it, this whole thread is basically because the OP mis-stated a few stances, we're all in agreement about most of this. :lol: Some act as if everything must be well defined and worded just right...
Is everything black and white? No. Is everything a shade of gray? No. Some people think everything is black and white and some people believe everything is a shade of gray. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle...

 

Oh yeah, there's those that think truth is completely subjective as well. There's no debating those folks... We should all be searching for the truth in everything we discuss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it isn't black and white, aren't you only left with shades of grey? :wub:

 

Shades of grey are what 'lies somewhere in the middle' of black and white.

To carry that further, aren't black and white simply darker and lighter shades of grey?

 

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :wub::wub::wub:

How many posts until the mods put this one out of it's misery?

I hope this thread stays open until it somehow manages to make the world a better place. It would be a shame if after all this, life was essentially the same as before we started.

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<snip>

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :wub::wub::lol:

How many posts until the mods put this one out of it's misery?

As long as this group is occupied here, everyone else is in other threads staying on topic and prgressing the conversations.

 

Carry on. :wub:

 

Awww MM, you say the nicest things.... :wub::wub:

 

CTD...unless someone makes the rest play the same, there will always be multi-logging, fake logging etc. Unless all can agree to play by the same guidelines, we'll never see a change! Really, until we see an end to the "play the way you want" thought, we'll always disagree and it'll never change (IMHO)

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Hi. My name is RoN and I claimed a find recently during a cache machine and personally didn't sign the logbook. I've been carrying the guilt for over a month now. Even worse, I didn't keep very good notes and signed all the online logs "TFTH!" I didn't think it was a problem. Everyone else was doing it. I wouldn't have gotten 64 finds that day if I had to wait in line behind 20 people to sign the logbook. I FEEL DIRTY! :lol:

 

One day at a time...... One day at a time.....

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Hi. My name is RoN and I claimed a find recently during a cache machine and personally didn't sign the logbook. I've been carrying the guilt for over a month now. Even worse, I didn't keep very good notes and signed all the online logs "TFTH!" I didn't think it was a problem. Everyone else was doing it. I wouldn't have gotten 64 finds that day if I had to wait in line behind 20 people to sign the logbook. I FEEL DIRTY! :lol:

 

One day at a time...... One day at a time.....

Nice. Thanks for breaking the game.

 

I am embarrassed to call myself a geocacher.

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<snip>

How many posts until we reach the 30th page?? :wub::wub::lol:

How many posts until the mods put this one out of it's misery?

As long as this group is occupied here, everyone else is in other threads staying on topic and prgressing the conversations.

 

Carry on. :wub:

 

Awww MM, you say the nicest things.... :wub::wub:

 

CTD...unless someone makes the rest play the same, there will always be multi-logging, fake logging etc. Unless all can agree to play by the same guidelines, we'll never see a change! Really, until we see an end to the "play the way you want" thought, we'll always disagree and it'll never change (IMHO)

Correct! This game will not be degraded, we'll continue with the way things are, some will get really upset about things that won't change their game and some will just let it go and have lots and lots of fun.

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Why are rules needed if not competing? If everyone in a foresome of golf has different "rules" they use when counting penalty shots, moving obstacles in the putt line, grounding the club in the sand trap, dropping the ball after hitting it in the water, keeping score, and stuff like that, it doesn't affect anyone else in the foresome UNLESS they are competing.

 

I like the golf analogy; so much that I used it in my original post. My golf analogy is different than yours because I see false logs as NOT geocaching, and analogized false logs to kicking or throwing the ball, which is NOT golf. In my opinion the golf examples you give are more analogous to minor variations of geocaching (i.e. logging when you can see the cache but can’t retrieve it).

 

In non-competing golf foursomes, it would be unusual to allow a golfer to repeatedly throw and kick the ball, regardless of the fact that it doesn’t affect anyone else. If throwing and kicking the ball became a regular occurrence for some players (say 1% or 2%) and was allowed by other golfers because it didn’t affect them, then I (and many golfers) would consider this the beginning of the degradation of golf.

 

Some recent threads on false logging seemed to have a lot of posts with the attitude of “don’t worry about false logs if they don’t affect you”. It was enough to prompt me to ask the question “Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?”

 

P.S. – I do not have proof that 1% to 2% of geocachers are guilty of false logging, it’s merely a guess.

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...Strangely, this kid continually violated the cardinal rule of bowling. He would wander up to the lane, grab his ball, and bowl without paying any attention to what was going on in the lanes next to him. It was incredibly rude and I was a little bent because of his actions.

 

The game of bowling, however, was unaffected. It wasn't degraded by his inconsiderate behavior.

 

What's bowling? The rules? The people participating in the activity? The equipment? All three? I'm going for all three.

 

However you clearly have your own idea of what Bowling is so what's your take on what bowling is?

 

Also something was degraded else you would not have been annoyed. What was it? A part of the entire bowling experience that you dont' call bowling itself?

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I really do not know why some people are defending fake loggers, when they do not have any intention of creating any fake logs themselves... :lol:
I re-read a bunch of the 29 pages and still can't find where anyone "defended" fake loggers. If someone is zooming by me 20mph over the speed limit and I just watch them pass and DON'T call the highway patrol, snap a picture of them and track them down so they get busted it does NOT mean I am "defending" them. I may be tolerating them, but I sure ain't "defending" them.

 

The question still is if these fake logs degrade GC. And what does the fake log even have the potential of doing to affect any other cachers????

 

For example if you see someone found a cache and you go after it and don't find it and it's determined it's missing. If they wrote a fake log and the cache was gone BEFORE they logged it then you went after something that wasn't there. If they wrote a real log and the cache disappeared AFTER they found it then you went after something that wasn't there. Either way you did the same thing and had the same experience. And without the log book FROM the cache you have NO WAY TO PROVE THEY WROTE A FAKE LOG. And either way the problem was a missing cache!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And yes, I can see that as possibly happening. But have you NEVER had a DNF? When you had a DNF, did it degrade the game? If you didn't find it then you wouldn't know if it was missing or if you just COULD NOT FIND IT. Personally I might feel BETTER finding out the cache was MIA rather then thinking I failed at finding it. And if you invested a lot of time and effort into just ONE cache then yeah, it might inconvienience you but finding out if the last log entry was valid or not does not change the fact that you had a DNF and regardless of the reason it was missing, there is a missing cache you went after. Someone logging a find on the wrong cache could cause the same thing and I'd hate to think GC is so unstable that a mistaken log entry would cause the degredation of the game.

 

But if you put that much effort into it and couldn't find it and it was there, would the game be degraded????? I just think the odds of a fake log affecting a cacher in this way are very remote and I don't see it affecting anyone any more then a regular ol' DNF. And other then a virtual, how can a fake log affect a regular cacher???? I mean outside of the number junkies who think they're in this to beat everyone else...

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The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:
Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded.

 

We all need rules.
"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

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CTD...unless someone makes the rest play the same, there will always be multi-logging, fake logging etc. Unless all can agree to play by the same guidelines, we'll never see a change! Really, until we see an end to the "play the way you want" thought, we'll always disagree and it'll never change (IMHO)
I actually think that the flexibility, gray regions, and lack of hard line rules is part of the appeal of GC to many people.
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P.S. – I do not have proof that 1% to 2% of geocachers are guilty of false logging, it’s merely a guess.
But if you suddenly became aware that it was 50% fake logs and it was so transparent with the real loggings that no one really even noticed it, would you stop geocaching?

 

Oh yeah, can we play thru? My buddy is a MLB pitcher and he can throw that golf ball a MILE! :lol:

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The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:
Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded.

 

We all need rules.
"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

Too Tall John's driving habits are completely irrelevant to the position he took that rules are necessary.

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I hope this thread stays open until it somehow manages to make the world a better place. It would be a shame if after all this, life was essentially the same as before we started.
My typing skills have improved 25%... :wub:

Excellent! Plus ReadyOrNot managed to assuage some guilt. So a few positive things have come out of all this, and the world is a better place! I feel it! :lol:

 

Ok, let's shut 'er down! :wub:

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... In non-competing golf foursomes, it would be unusual to allow a golfer to repeatedly throw and kick the ball, regardless of the fact that it doesn’t affect anyone else. If throwing and kicking the ball became a regular occurrence for some players (say 1% or 2%) and was allowed by other golfers because it didn’t affect them, then I (and many golfers) would consider this the beginning of the degradation of golf. ...
Why?

 

How is something that is going on in some other foursome that you are not competing with detrimental to the game that you are playing?

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... In non-competing golf foursomes, it would be unusual to allow a golfer to repeatedly throw and kick the ball, regardless of the fact that it doesn’t affect anyone else. If throwing and kicking the ball became a regular occurrence for some players (say 1% or 2%) and was allowed by other golfers because it didn’t affect them, then I (and many golfers) would consider this the beginning of the degradation of golf. ...
Why?

 

How is something that is going on in some other foursome that you are not competing with detrimental to the game that you are playing?

If the player in question were supplying the beer, I wouldn't complain at all.

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P.S. – I do not have proof that 1% to 2% of geocachers are guilty of false logging, it’s merely a guess.
But if you suddenly became aware that it was 50% fake logs and it was so transparent with the real loggings that no one really even noticed it, would you stop geocaching?

Considering many have insisted that false logs are not running rampant, then I doubt it is 50%. As mentioned I would guess it's 1% to 2%.

 

However, if we allow things to get as bad as 50% on geocaching.com, then I would probably begin using one of the many other geocaching websites that either exist, or would be created by others who don't agree with false logging (or hopefully someone would have created www.falselogging.com by then).

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...Strangely, this kid continually violated the cardinal rule of bowling. He would wander up to the lane, grab his ball, and bowl without paying any attention to what was going on in the lanes next to him. It was incredibly rude and I was a little bent because of his actions.

 

The game of bowling, however, was unaffected. It wasn't degraded by his inconsiderate behavior.

 

What's bowling? The rules? The people participating in the activity? The equipment? All three? I'm going for all three.

 

However you clearly have your own idea of what Bowling is so what's your take on what bowling is?

 

Also something was degraded else you would not have been annoyed. What was it? A part of the entire bowling experience that you dont' call bowling itself?

Here's why I don't believe that the boys actions 'degraded the game of bowling':

 

If I go to the bowling alley this afternoon, I am unlikely to suffer the same selfish behavior. Also, if I go to a different bowling alley, I'm unlikely to experience it.

 

It doesn't happen often enough to make an impact on the game, itself.

 

Let's take a look at it from another direction.

 

When GC.com allowed the first locationless cache, the very game of geocaching was altered. When LCs went away, it was altered again.

 

A very few bogus logs on a very few caches don't alter the game. If it did, the game would have been altered back in 2001 when threads discussing this issue first started popping up.

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The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:
Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded.

 

We all need rules.
"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

Too Tall John's driving habits are completely irrelevant to the position he took that rules are necessary.

Since he is also arguing that the rules must be followed, his driving habits might indeed be relevant.

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... In non-competing golf foursomes, it would be unusual to allow a golfer to repeatedly throw and kick the ball, regardless of the fact that it doesn’t affect anyone else. If throwing and kicking the ball became a regular occurrence for some players (say 1% or 2%) and was allowed by other golfers because it didn’t affect them, then I (and many golfers) would consider this the beginning of the degradation of golf. ...
Why?

 

How is something that is going on in some other foursome that you are not competing with detrimental to the game that you are playing?

If the player in question were supplying the beer, I wouldn't complain at all.

If I were the one drinking the beer, I might become the person kicking and throwing the ball.

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... In non-competing golf foursomes, it would be unusual to allow a golfer to repeatedly throw and kick the ball, regardless of the fact that it doesn’t affect anyone else. If throwing and kicking the ball became a regular occurrence for some players (say 1% or 2%) and was allowed by other golfers because it didn’t affect them, then I (and many golfers) would consider this the beginning of the degradation of golf. ...
Why?

 

How is something that is going on in some other foursome that you are not competing with detrimental to the game that you are playing?

 

My buddy was frustrated one day and threw his ball a couple of times, (and his putter into the woods). Although we weren't competing, I know that some in our group got tired of it. The Marshall also caught him and asked him to stop throwing his ball. I didn't ask the Marshall why my friend wasn't allowed to throw his ball considering it wasn't hurting anyone else, but I suspect he might have answered something along the lines of, "that's not golf, our course is for golf, if you want to throw balls then go the to the baseball diamond down the road". Maybe the Marshall was just protecting the integrity of how the game was played on his course.

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The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:
Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded.

 

We all need rules.
"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

Too Tall John's driving habits are completely irrelevant to the position he took that rules are necessary.

Since he is also arguing that the rules must be followed, his driving habits might indeed be relevant.

Where is he arguing that the rules must be followed?

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...If I go to the bowling alley this afternoon, I am unlikely to suffer the same selfish behavior. Also, if I go to a different bowling alley, I'm unlikely to experience it.

 

It doesn't happen often enough to make an impact on the game, itself....

 

For you then, it's an issue of magnitude. At the current magnitude that you have seen, it's not enough to make the call.

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The fact that you can list the sandbox rules yourself proves my point:
Yup, proves that *I* had rules for *MY* kids. Did not have *ANY* impact on *ANY* other kids in the sandbox. There was no universal sandbox rules that applied to everyone. And even with my rules, at times my kids got hurt, hurt someone else, and sometimes didn't have a lot of fun. But we kept going to the sandbox, kept playing, and no one felt degraded.
We all need rules.
"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

Too Tall John's driving habits are completely irrelevant to the position he took that rules are necessary.
Since he is also arguing that the rules must be followed, his driving habits might indeed be relevant.
Where is he arguing that the rules must be followed?
Is it your position that TTJ wants rules, but that he doesn't care whether people follow them, or not
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...If I go to the bowling alley this afternoon, I am unlikely to suffer the same selfish behavior. Also, if I go to a different bowling alley, I'm unlikely to experience it.

 

It doesn't happen often enough to make an impact on the game, itself....

 

For you then, it's an issue of magnitude. At the current magnitude that you have seen, it's not enough to make the call.

Not really. what I'm saying is that for there to be degragation to the game, then the game must have changed in a readily apparent way. For instance, if a rule was enacted that required all finders of all caches to obtain a code word from each cache to verify their finds, then these actions would have been shown to affect a change and degraded the game.

 

However, that's not the case. What is going on is the same activities that have been going on for seven or so years. It hasn't even been shown to be happening in a greater percentage of logs. I suspect that it is actually happening at a much lower percentage than in the past. (Of course, when you are still talking about a small percentage of 1% of the logs, why would that matter?)

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However, if we allow things to get as bad as 50% on geocaching.com, then I would probably begin using one of the many other geocaching websites that either exist, or would be created by others who don't agree with false logging (or hopefully someone would have created www.falselogging.com by then).
You think if false logging was that bad on GC it wouldn't be as bad everywhere else? And if you didn't even know it existed unless you dug in deep to find out, then what's the problem?
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"If you obey all the rules, you'll miss all the fun." ~Katherine Hepburn

 

Do you ever break the posted speed limit?

Do you ever not come to a complete stop before turing right on red?

Do you ever fail to use your turn signal properly?

 

And these aren't just rules. They're laws. Do you obey them 100% all the time?

 

That's another topic. The old school law enforcment would give you a ticket AFTER you were speeding. Before that, talking about speeding, planning to speed, buying a car that can speed, were all just activities.

 

New School Law Enformcement (DOHS style) is all about picking your butt up before you speed for conspiracy to speed. To do that they need to watch everthing. It's a new philosopy that's creeping into the system.

 

I'm not sure I can tie this back on topic...Oh wait. Planning a fake log, having a file with handy fake log prases, and using a computer that could be used to fake logs...all a moot point. I don't care about the fake log untils it's a real fake log. Hitting the "found" button instead of the DNF button isn't a fake log. It's an accident.

 

The acid test for a fake log is much more black and white than the slop in most cars odomoters that we use to tell if we are speeding.

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