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Physical geocaches prohibited in ABDSP?


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"No one was holding a metaphoric gun to Nixon's head when he declared "Peace with Honor". "

 

What????? You are re-writing History. You must be young. Nixon WAS forced to extract us from Viet Nam.

 

Maybe if we set around and hold hands at a campfire and sing camp songs with Jorgensen he will compromise. I think not. By the way his compromise so far is to "Allow" Earthcaches. That's no compromise. Jorgensen has no power at all to prevent Earthcaches and he knows it. He could do nothing if Groundspeak allows earthcaches, or any other cache types, to be posted just like he has no power to prevent guide books from publishing directions to sites in the Park.

 

 

By the way, I appreciate the fact that we can disagree and remain civil with each other on this Board. Usually disagreements on message boards descend into Flame Wars.

:lol:

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So what is a geocacher to do? The maps that the state provide show an area that is not part of "their territory" and we're supposed to say we'll maybe I shouldn't geocache here because maybe it's a part of the park.

 

If you're going to put a cache NEAR the park boundaries, then I'd use the most accurate map I could get my hands on. Any map produced by the California Department of Parks and Recreation should be accurate enough. I'm still trying to locate a highly detailed topo map that shows an accurate boundary, but at this time, the one I gave the link for is the best I could find.

 

If you are going to make a determination of what and where an "accurate boundary" exists, don't you already have to know that information?

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"If you have a low level of positional authority (e.g. a geocacher) and want something from someone who has a high level of positional authority (e.g. a park superintendent), DO NOT (I repeat DO NOT) punch them in the nose! Do not continuously poke them with a pointy stick! Do not stomp on their toes! Do not place a flaming bag of s*** on their front porch and ring the doorbell! It's NOT going to convince them to change their minds. "

 

Let's see. Jorgensen is a "High Authority" and a citizen (read tax payer) is a "Low Authority". So I guess you are saying we need to be afraid of "pissing off" a government official. Sorry but that's not what I call democracy.

 

I can't say I agree with the idea of Pirate caches but I do applaud abdspgeocacher for doing something rather than "Rolling Over" like it appears most here suggest.

 

I guess I don't understand what Jorgensen could do if Groundspeak refused to comply and simply continued to allow caches within the Park to be posted. Continue to follow the previous policy of reviewing locations etc. as Marco has done for a long time. Sure, Park personnel could remove them one by one but soon they would get tired of doing that. With budget cuts looming, they won't have the budget to do it much longer anyway. Maybe the Budget Cuts the the Governator is talking about will lay off Jorgensen.

 

"Sure, Park personnel could remove them one by one but soon they would get tired of doing that." Perhaps they will get tired of that. I sometimes get tired of specific aspects of my job as well. I can tell my supervisor that I am tired of doing that. My supervisor can then decide how he is going to explain to his manager why the job is no longer geting done.

 

I think that most people who value their continued employment will, for the most part follow reasonable requests from their supervisor. Further I also believe that most people realize that there will at times be aspects of work that they do not find particularly exciting or mentally challenging.

 

Park rangers and other staff there are hardly in a position to refuse to execute the task of removing geocaches. I do suppose that it could happen but I think that that is highly unlikely.

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For what it's worth, I made it clear to Jorgensen that nobody representing GC.com participated in or encouraged the pirate site. His response was something to the effect that this response is not helping our cause. Unfortunately, there is little we can do to control lynch mobs, but this activity certainly isn't welcome. It has and will continue to undermine the ability of the GC staff to petition those senior to Jorgensen.

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abdspgeocacher does not exist on geocaching.com . Whoever he really is; I don't think this is the proper way to respond.

How to Win Friends and Influence People 101

 

If you have a low level of positional authority (e.g. a geocacher) and want something from someone who has a high level of positional authority (e.g. a park superintendent), DO NOT (I repeat DO NOT) punch them in the nose! Do not continuously poke them with a pointy stick! Do not stomp on their toes! Do not place a flaming bag of s*** on their front porch and ring the doorbell! It's NOT going to convince them to change their minds.

 

Or to put it another way, do not get in a p*ssing match with someone who has more p*ss than you do.

 

:lol: Sheesh! You'd think people would have more sense... B)

 

I agree 100%, well put LLOT! This entire "Pirate" cache thing does nothing to help the situation and will only serve to reduce the Geocacher reputation, it makes us all look bad. I am registering with the site just to try and express my discontent with it.

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"No one was holding a metaphoric gun to Nixon's head when he declared "Peace with Honor". "

 

What????? You are re-writing History. You must be young. Nixon WAS forced to extract us from Viet Nam.

 

Maybe if we set around and hold hands at a campfire and sing camp songs with Jorgensen he will compromise. I think not. By the way his compromise so far is to "Allow" Earthcaches. That's no compromise. Jorgensen has no power at all to prevent Earthcaches and he knows it. He could do nothing if Groundspeak allows earthcaches, or any other cache types, to be posted just like he has no power to prevent guide books from publishing directions to sites in the Park.

 

 

By the way, I appreciate the fact that we can disagree and remain civil with each other on this Board. Usually disagreements on message boards descend into Flame Wars.

:lol:

 

WTF dies Vietnam have to do with any of this......

 

This is about Geocaching, a fun activity, or sport if you will.

 

The way you are going about this is entirely wrong, it is the Governments policy not to negotiate with terrorists.

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Thought I should post this. It is a copy of the email string between abdspgeocacher and Jorgensen. I think Jorgensen response was very good. The response from adbspgeocaher was way out of line.

 

 

Mark Jorgensen's response seems to be "My Way or the Highway".

Let's respond with hundreds of caches.

---------------------------------------------------------

Sun, 6 Jan 2008 06:45:13 -0800 (PST)

From: "abdspgeocacher" <abdspgeocacher@yahoo.com> Add to Address Book

Add Mobile Alert

Subject: RE: Geocaching in Anza Borrego Desert State Park

To: "Jorgensen, Mark" <mjorgensen@parks.ca.gov>

All we asked is Reasonable restrictions.....

 

OK,

You asked for it! Let's see you remove all of ours. You don't have

the staff or the budget to compete with us.

 

abdspgeocacher

-----------------------------------------------------

"Jorgensen, Mark" <mjorgensen@parks.ca.gov> wrote:

"Dave Smith":

 

Yes, you did reach the correct person at Anza-Borrego.

 

We'll continue to work with the responsible geocaching organizations to

transition to "virtual" or "Earth" caches, which leave no physical

materials in our Park and Wilderness Areas.

 

Your so-called protest will continue what has been going on for the

last few years, and has brought us to where we all today. Hundreds of

unauthorized caches have been poorly placed in sensitive areas of

archeological, paleotological, historical, and resource importance. We are

working together to allow fun recreational use of the State Park, while

assuring the long-term protection of this wonderful desert land for

future generations to come.

 

Think about how your action leads to a better future for your sport and

for the integrity of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. There are many

geocachers who are working to preserve their sport as well as protect

their Parks.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mark Jorgensen

Superintendent

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: abdspgeocacher [mailto:abdspgeocacher@yahoo.com]

Sent: Sat 1/5/2008 8:53 PM

To: Jorgensen, Mark

Cc: Mona Maree Jones

Subject: Geocaching in Anza Borrego Desert State Park

 

I'm not sure if you are the right person to send this or not but, if

not, I hope you will forward this to the proper person.

 

I read that ABDSP is forbidding physical geocaches within the park and

the caches are being removed by Park staff. I also read that

geocaching.com is cooperating by not allowing any new caches, within the Park

boundries, to be posted on their website .

 

As a protest to the Park policy we have started a "Pirate" Geocache

website. We will be placing caches within the Park and posting them on

our site. While geocaching.com "controlled" where caches could be placed

to comply with previous rules, our caches will not be moderated.

Participants will place them where they wish.

 

Over 20 "Pirate" geocaches have been placed within the Park over the

past few days. Our plan is to place many more before opening our site to

the public. We will have well over 100 before the end of January.

 

We consider this a non-violent, non-destructive protest of an

unreasonable, not well thought, policy . Our purpose is to convince ABDSP that

it is better to allow "Official" geocaching, monitored by a Moderator,

who makes sure caches comply with "reasonable" rules. We are

confident that we can place caches much faster than Park staff can remove them.

 

We are not vandals and will continue to protect the environment and try

to avoid sensitive sites however since the Park keeps those sites

"secret" we can't be sure that caches will not be near them. We will ask

our participants to follow guidelines that respect the land.

 

We are hoping that Park Administrators will review the new policy and

reach more reasonable terms with representatives from the Geocaching

community. If we hear that more reasonable rules will be applied,

allowing "controlled" physical caches, we will take down our "Pirate" site and

remove our caches.

 

Dave Smith

abdspgeocacher

Borrego Springs Resident

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For what it's worth, I made it clear to Jorgensen that nobody representing GC.com participated in or encouraged the pirate site. His response was something to the effect that this response is not helping our cause. Unfortunately, there is little we can do to control lynch mobs, but this activity certainly isn't welcome. It has and will continue to undermine the ability of the GC staff to petition those senior to Jorgensen.

I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.

 

Jorgensen behaved like a bully. There have been caches in the Park for almost seven years. Notaranger has even logged "Found it" on caches as far back as 2004. When Jorgensen decided he did not want caches in the Park anymore, he did not give adequate notice for a change in Policy. He had people remove them as if they were "trash." Plus, most of the time, Notes were not posted on the cache pages letting the cache owners and cachers know the caches had been removed. B) That has led to logs like this one :lol:

 

If Jorgensen had acted in a more professional manner, which is the way a Superintendent of a State Park should act, the anger in the caching community would not have erupted as it did.

 

Some of the caches that were removed had been in place for several years and some had not been found more than six times per year for the past couple of years. That amount of "traffic" cannot possibly cause any damage to the area.

 

I had a stake in several of the "Historic Caches" in the Park because of my two "Historic Cache Adventures," V. 1.0 and V. 2.0

 

The Archived caches that are in ABDSP are going to remain in the lists for my Multi-caches. My hope is that those caches will eventually be returned to their hiding places for future cachers to seek and find.

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...Abdspgeocacher's objective is to convince Jorgensen to modify the policy to allow caches that comply with some reasonable rules. You may not agree with his method of convincing Jorgensen but at least he is not simply "laying down" without a fight. Maybe it is his and my age. We were young adults in the 1960s. We protested using civil disobedience when government officials were wrong! We failed sometimes but often we got changes done. I cheer him on for doing something rather than simply complying.

 

 

Roger Mullins

Crest

justruns@cox.net

Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. used these methods.

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...Jorgensen behaved like a bully....

In the end the park serves it's people. It's people are it's customers. Those who take the time to visit and enjoy the park. Some of those customers are geocachers.

 

Park policy, and perhaps more importantly state policy prescribe treating your customers with respect and dignity. The answer may very well be "no" but it doesn't have to be a rude and disrespectful no.

 

Just ask any State Representative. :lol:

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"Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward"

 

How can it hurt us further? He is already doing all he can do. That is have his staff remove caches. There is no way he can stop earthcaches.

 

Please tell what more can he do.

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Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward
How can it hurt us further? He is already doing all he can do. That is have his staff remove caches. There is no way he can stop earthcaches.

 

Please tell what more can he do.

If you hit the "Reply" button under someone's post it will automatically quote what they said (just like this reply to your post).

 

Have you been reading anything that has been posted? Groundspeak is in the process of negotiating with Jorgensen's superiors. They don't need people to undermine what they are doing. Abdspgeocacher is throwing dirt in the grave at the same time Groundspeak is trying to get the dirt out the grave. It's really not that tough to understand...

Edited by TrailGators
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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

I will reiterate . . . Jorgensen behaved like a bully. :D

 

Every other change for the Park, like the closure of the area in the Piedras Grandes area, has a time for "Public Comment." And, by the way, the time for Public Comment for that change is up today. :D Send your emails now, if you oppose that change.

 

This situation could have been handled in a much better, professional way. If there were particular caches that were problematic, why didn't Jorgensen send an email to either Marko Ramius or Groundspeak stating there was a problem with that particular cache?

 

Why weren't cache owners given some time to retrieve their own containers with logbooks that had signatures in them going back six years?

 

Why weren't the caches retained when they were removed? The marines removed caches from the area north of 52, but saved the caches so the owners could get them back.

 

Why didn't they leave Notes on the cache pages when the caches were removed?

 

What sort of damage could happen to the environment in the area where this cache was hidden, "How About Another One?"?

 

If someone behaves in a completely unprofessional manner, perhaps they shouldn't be in that job. :D

 

Once again, I completely understand why abdspgeocacher is doing what he/she is doing.

Edited by Miragee
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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

I'm hoping that all those "pirate" caches are actually "virtuals" (i.e. hoaxes). If unpublished, the only people logging DNF's on them will be the rangers. Which, I'm sure, will annoy them, but would not result in non-rangers trampling sensitive areas. This should not be surprising to either the park service or gc.com when it comes to trying to control the internets. Whether or not the park service and gc.com come to some sort of "understanding" will not prevent anyone else from doing their own thing, so maybe this will make it apparent to the park service that gc.com is not and cannot be responsible for what everyone does out there.

 

 

Sadly, right now it appears unlikely any "understanding" can be reached where people can leave officially sanctioned boxes in the park. :D Maybe this will be an opportunity to elevate Waymarking.com usage in San Diego though (which I think is going to combine with gc.com at some point anyway).

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If the policy changes to a more reasonable one it won't be because gc.com "negotiated" it. It will be because the Jorgensen, or his superiors, realized that there is nothing they can do to stop geocaching in the Park. All they can do is agree to moderated caches if gc.com stands up to them.

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"Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward"

 

How can it hurt us further? He is already doing all he can do. That is have his staff remove caches. There is no way he can stop earthcaches.

 

Please tell what more can he do.

 

Part of me thinks that Groundspeak should allow the 'placement' of Earthcaches immediately. I don't see why we should have to wait for approval from ABSDP. There are guidebooks complete with coordinates showing people interesting locations. What would be the difference with geocachers going to these places and logging a find? Is it crime to list a secret spot in a book for non-geocachers to find? Is the park so terrified that hundreds of people will visit these sites? That's not happened at any of the caches that I have in park. My 4wd Parking Garage cache has been found by roughly 25 people in 5 years. Many other remote caches have the similar experience.

 

The only fear that I have is that if we as a geocaching community start working on earthcaches as an alternative then ABDSP rangers will think we're satisfied. Yet what we really want are our physical caches back.

 

Dave

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If the policy changes to a more reasonable one it won't be because gc.com "negotiated" it. It will be because the Jorgensen, or his superiors, realized that there is nothing they can do to stop geocaching in the Park. All they can do is agree to moderated caches if gc.com stands up to them.
But, as abdspgeocacher makes clear, gc.com doesn't currently moderate all caches in the park. What would be the point of agreeing to anything with gc.com if freelancers will just do whatever they want anyway?
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<snip>

 

Sadly, right now it appears unlikely any "understanding" can be reached where people can leave officially sanctioned boxes in the park. :D Maybe this will be an opportunity to elevate Waymarking.com usage in San Diego though (which I think is going to combine with gc.com at some point anyway).

Now, there's an idea!!! idea.gif I had given up on the Waymarking site because no one visits the ones I created. :D But, I am hiking out there tomorrow and I just bet I can find several locations that will be accepted in the Category "Places of Geologic Significance."

 

Maybe I'll even find other places for my Category, "New World Ancient Evidence" or the other category for "Pictographs." :D:D:D

 

That gives me an idea for a brand new Category, "Locations of caches previously-located in Anza Borrego Desert State Park." :P

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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

I'm hoping that all those "pirate" caches are actually "virtuals" (i.e. hoaxes). If unpublished, the only people logging DNF's on them will be the rangers. Which, I'm sure, will annoy them, but would not result in non-rangers trampling sensitive areas. This should not be surprising to either the park service or gc.com when it comes to trying to control the internets. Whether or not the park service and gc.com come to some sort of "understanding" will not prevent anyone else from doing their own thing, so maybe this will make it apparent to the park service that gc.com is not and cannot be responsible for what everyone does out there.

 

Sadly, right now it appears unlikely any "understanding" can be reached where people can leave officially sanctioned boxes in the park. :D Maybe this will be an opportunity to elevate Waymarking.com usage in San Diego though (which I think is going to combine with gc.com at some point anyway).

 

I don't think we have all the info to make that call since we aren't privy to the status of the negotiations. They asked us to wait. :D

 

Anyhow, I think it is very possible to do what we do with SDRP and to have the park approve the locations for a limited amount of physical caches. Geocaching is about finding treasure and if you read earlier in this thread, the head of the CA State Parks sees the value in geocaching as a way to get kids into hiking and to be appreciative of the parks. This move by Jorgensen is heavy-handed and completely thoughtless towards those benefits.

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Sadly, right now it appears unlikely any "understanding" can be reached where people can leave officially sanctioned boxes in the park. :D Maybe this will be an opportunity to elevate Waymarking.com usage in San Diego though (which I think is going to combine with gc.com at some point anyway).

 

I don't think we have all the info to make that call since we aren't privy to the status of the negotiations. They asked us to wait. :D

I meant, thanks to abdspcacher making it clear that gc.com can't regulate all physical caching in the park anyway, there might not be any point in reaching such an agreement. I certainly do not have any info on the current status -- and I'll try to be more optimistic! :D
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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

Build from it. Protest is protest. It's feedback. You don't have to like it (either as a cacher or park manager) but it's the real world and you can learn from it. People have a right to protest. Some actually do. Find the silver lining. There is one.

 

While it may seem like a good thing to say "I'm on it, everone else back off" like some cachers do, the reality is that everone impacted has a say and a right to have it. There is usually one person best suited to deal face to face, but even in that case everone else builds interest. Take the NPS. Unless you are well positioned you would be hard pressed to get a high level meeting with the NPS even if you are the chief cook and bottle washer for the state caching organization. However if everone in the state is up in arms over the latest NPS policy and it's got the attention of the NPS big wigs...that meeting may very well happen.

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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

Build from it. Protest is protest. It's feedback. You don't have to like it (either as a cacher or park manager) but it's the real world and you can learn from it. People have a right to protest. Some actually do. Find the silver lining. There is one.

 

While it may seem like a good thing to say "I'm on it, everone else back off" like some cachers do, the reality is that everone impacted has a say and a right to have it. There is usually one person best suited to deal face to face, but even in that case everone else builds interest. Take the NPS. Unless you are well positioned you would be hard pressed to get a high level meeting with the NPS even if you are the chief cook and bottle washer for the state caching organization. However if everone in the state is up in arms over the latest NPS policy and it's got the attention of the NPS big wigs...that meeting may very well happen.

Geocachers hiding pirate caches is a bad idea. Sending letters to Ruth from the geocaching kids is a much better idea.
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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.

Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

Build from it. Protest is protest. It's feedback. You don't have to like it (either as a cacher or park manager) but it's the real world and you can learn from it. People have a right to protest. Some actually do. Find the silver lining. There is one.

 

<snip>

Yup . . . there are new caches to find in the desert. I'm busy putting the coordinates in my GSAK database this very minute. :D:D:D

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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

Build from it. Protest is protest. It's feedback. You don't have to like it (either as a cacher or park manager) but it's the real world and you can learn from it. People have a right to protest. Some actually do. Find the silver lining. There is one.

 

While it may seem like a good thing to say "I'm on it, everone else back off" like some cachers do, the reality is that everone impacted has a say and a right to have it. There is usually one person best suited to deal face to face, but even in that case everone else builds interest. Take the NPS. Unless you are well positioned you would be hard pressed to get a high level meeting with the NPS even if you are the chief cook and bottle washer for the state caching organization. However if everone in the state is up in arms over the latest NPS policy and it's got the attention of the NPS big wigs...that meeting may very well happen.

Geocachers hiding pirate caches is a bad idea. Sending letters to Ruth from the geocaching kids is a much better idea.

 

Agreed! But enough of this. Lets get back to caching and solving the Tecolote Canyon puzzles.... I want free beer and pizza

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An unfortunate turn of events but alas I'll not give up faith that something can be agreed to.

 

A good point is that I don't see how the placement of any virtual or earthcache should have to go through him. Unless designated as such we can go anywhere in the desert there. That said...

 

Today Xiara and I will be going to the desert to continue our studies of indian sites and villages, plant life and the search for rare mineral depositions (to study of course!). Because we can. For now. We will also be exploring Sunday on our way back from Superstition. If anyone has a cache that they really want picked up let me know.

We will resist the urge to litter, ruin trails, kick around old rock piles and take rare indian artifacts. Instead we will walk with awareness and respect for the land we enjoy so much.

 

Again, the biggest issue I have with all of this is how geocachers have been GIVEN this very negative 'reputation' by Jorgensen and whoever else is leading this. And then not allowing any sort of opportunity to at least prove them wrong by working together. I for one always work to keep my ego in check and question my motivations. Are these actions serving the greater good in a beneficial way? But the bigger question is also how one chooses to act. Do the ends justify the means if you deliberately hurt others along the way? Where will the outlet then go for those feelings? Seems like it could create an unending circle here. Tolerance and compassion, tolerance and compassion...

 

Yes, we should have been given at the very least an opportunity for a retrieval process. Sad.

 

Interesting how this situation gets people to react in so many different ways. Fascinating really how we can see so many differing feelings, thoughts and actions come out of everyones different responses to a passionately felt situation. The beauty of being individuals and free thinkers. To see this expression and the ability to have it and be able to make it...it's an awesome thing. I'm sad about the cache removals of course. But for how long can I be mad and upset about this and Peace,Espavo and that mysterious indian artifact...I wont let that negativity sit inside of me.

 

I do think that collective light can produce far better results. I'm an eternal optimist I admit.

 

And yes, I hug trees, but I'd never approach a mountain lion.

 

I'm on 147.555 on the ham and my call sign is KG6QPP if anyone has a ham and they want to say HI if you'll be out there as well! In Superstition Tims call sign is KG6QPL if you want to find us on the trails or camp for the Superstition event.

 

Peace out!

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I can understand why someone would respond in the way abdspgeocacher did.
Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward....

Build from it. Protest is protest. It's feedback. You don't have to like it (either as a cacher or park manager) but it's the real world and you can learn from it. People have a right to protest. Some actually do. Find the silver lining. There is one.

 

While it may seem like a good thing to say "I'm on it, everone else back off" like some cachers do, the reality is that everone impacted has a say and a right to have it. There is usually one person best suited to deal face to face, but even in that case everone else builds interest. Take the NPS. Unless you are well positioned you would be hard pressed to get a high level meeting with the NPS even if you are the chief cook and bottle washer for the state caching organization. However if everone in the state is up in arms over the latest NPS policy and it's got the attention of the NPS big wigs...that meeting may very well happen.

Geocachers hiding pirate caches is a bad idea. Sending letters to Ruth from the geocaching kids is a much better idea.

X Caches (there is a history to the term) are a reality. You can either accpet them and build from it, or not. That they exist is beyond your control However if you are a key person what becomes of them can be influened by you (or your key person).

The goal isn't to turn on our own and X Cachers are our own like it or not, but to get the park to open up to caching as a reasonable and casual use of their lands as was intended when the park was created.

 

Letters are only as good as the park managers take them seriously. If they don't work, then something else should take place.

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An unfortunate turn of events but alas I'll not give up faith that something can be agreed to.

 

A good point is that I don't see how the placement of any virtual or earthcache should have to go through him. Unless designated as such we can go anywhere in the desert there. That said...

 

Today Xiara and I will be going to the desert to continue our studies of indian sites and villages, plant life and the search for rare mineral depositions (to study of course!). Because we can. For now. We will also be exploring Sunday on our way back from Superstition. If anyone has a cache that they really want picked up let me know.

We will resist the urge to litter, ruin trails, kick around old rock piles and take rare indian artifacts. Instead we will walk with awareness and respect for the land we enjoy so much.

 

Again, the biggest issue I have with all of this is how geocachers have been GIVEN this very negative 'reputation' by Jorgensen and whoever else is leading this. And then not allowing any sort of opportunity to at least prove them wrong by working together. I for one always work to keep my ego in check and question my motivations. Are these actions serving the greater good in a beneficial way? But the bigger question is also how one chooses to act. Do the ends justify the means if you deliberately hurt others along the way? Where will the outlet then go for those feelings? Seems like it could create an unending circle here. Tolerance and compassion, tolerance and compassion...

 

Yes, we should have been given at the very least an opportunity for a retrieval process. Sad.

 

Interesting how this situation gets people to react in so many different ways. Fascinating really how we can see so many differing feelings, thoughts and actions come out of everyones different responses to a passionately felt situation. The beauty of being individuals and free thinkers. To see this expression and the ability to have it and be able to make it...it's an awesome thing. I'm sad about the cache removals of course. But for how long can I be mad and upset about this and Peace,Espavo and that mysterious indian artifact...I wont let that negativity sit inside of me.

 

I do think that collective light can produce far better results. I'm an eternal optimist I admit.

 

And yes, I hug trees, but I'd never approach a mountain lion.

 

I'm on 147.555 on the ham and my call sign is KG6QPP if anyone has a ham and they want to say HI if you'll be out there as well! In Superstition Tims call sign is KG6QPL if you want to find us on the trails or camp for the Superstition event.

 

Peace out!

 

There won't be any 'virtuals' going thru anyone.

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When you all give up on rationality to solve the issue, I'll be happy to kick in some funds when you get together to hire an attorney.

 

One nice thing about attorneys. People on the recieving end of that pointed gun pay attention. Something they should have done before. Sometimes though, you have to work a bit harder to be taken seriously.

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When you all give up on rationality to solve the issue, I'll be happy to kick in some funds when you get together to hire an attorney.

 

One nice thing about attorneys. People on the recieving end of that pointed gun pay attention. Something they should have done before. Sometimes though, you have to work a bit harder to be taken seriously.

 

I wonder if we know of any good attorneys that are geocachers :D

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abdspgeocacher has said repeadly , if a "Reasonable" agreement is reached with gc.com he will take down his pirate site and remove his pirate caches. That is why he hasn't yet published any coordinates or opened his site to the public. He is hoping Jorgensen will arrive at a true compromise. Allowing earthcaches is no compromise. abdspgeocacher agrees that some areas should be off limits and perhaps only microcaches allowed.

 

He is a Premium Member of gc.com. Because of his Business he has to operate under another screen name until he is ready to "Come Out". He has a business in Borrego Springs and is reluctant to cause too many waves publicly. Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen or at least support compliance.

 

I met the guy and he is sincere. He is also concerned about the environment like all geocachers. His point is that unless Jorgensen is forced to change the policy he will not.

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Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen.
Wow, that was below the belt. :D

 

"All we are saying is give peace Miss Jenn a chance." :D

 

Jorgensen has no cards left. He played his only card by forbidding caches and by removing caches. Unless gc.com gives up by complying voluntarily, there is nothing Jorgensen can do. He cannot force gc.com to comply. He has no Power.

 

All gc.com needs to do is say to Jorgensen is, "Unless you agree to Reasonable controls, we will allow caches in the park to be posted no the gc.com site. " GC.com can't lose if they stand up to him.

 

Think about it!

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Geocachers hiding pirate caches is a bad idea. Sending letters to Ruth from the geocaching kids is a much better idea.
Agreed! But enough of this. Lets get back to caching and solving the Tecolote Canyon puzzles.... I want free beer and pizza
Agreed! I'm still working on the riddle. I can't believe how freaking close I was to getting #13 without any hints. Anyhow, FM gave me a small pull to get me out of the mud on that one... Edited by TrailGators
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Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen.
Wow, that was below the belt. :D

 

"All we are saying is give peace Miss Jenn a chance." :D

 

Jorgensen has no cards left. He played his only card by forbidding caches and by removing caches. Unless gc.com gives up by complying voluntarily, there is nothing Jorgensen can do. He cannot force gc.com to comply. He has no Power.

 

All gc.com needs to do is say to Jorgensen is, "Unless you agree to Reasonable controls, we will allow caches in the park to be posted no the gc.com site. " GC.com can't lose if they stand up to him.

 

Think about it!

 

This is getting tiresome but it's time for a quote from the GC Guidelines that we all have agreed to follow as geocachers:

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

"In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). "

Edited by TrailGators
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"This is getting tiresome but it's time for a quote from the GC Guidelines that we all have agreed to follow as geocachers:

 

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

"In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, are you saying that because of the above GC Guidelines Geocachers cannot protest against a policy?

 

I see why abdspgeocacher needs to use a screen name because being open with his identity might affect his business given the responses his effort at non-violent civil disobedience against an arbitrary policy.

 

What a coincidence for this holiday weekend.

 

If you are tired, take a rest.

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"This is getting tiresome but it's time for a quote from the GC Guidelines that we all have agreed to follow as geocachers:

 

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

"In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, are you saying that because of the above GC Guidelines Geocachers cannot protest against a policy?

 

I see why abdspgeocacher needs to use a screen name because being open with his identity might affect his business given the responses his effort at non-violent civil disobedience against an arbitrary policy.

 

What a coincidence for this holiday weekend.

 

If you are tired, take a rest.

Maybe someday you will actually read what I have written over and over.

ZZZZZZ.....

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...All gc.com needs to do is say to Jorgensen is, "Unless you agree to Reasonable controls, we will allow caches in the park to be posted no the gc.com site. " GC.com can't lose if they stand up to him.

 

Think about it!

GC.com will comply with known park rules. As of now that's "No caches".

It's up to cachers to solve the problem or not as they see fit.

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What I find interesting about all this talk is that I live in Borrego Springs and have never met another cacher that lives here. You would think that in 5 years we would have crossed paths.

 

 

He is a Premium Member of gc.com. Because of his Business he has to operate under another screen name until he is ready to "Come Out". He has a business in Borrego Springs and is reluctant to cause too many waves publicly. Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen or at least support compliance.

 

 

it does make you wonder How come Rebbeca (fossillady) does not know him. 000201C0.gif

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What I find interesting about all this talk is that I live in Borrego Springs and have never met another cacher that lives here. You would think that in 5 years we would have crossed paths.
He is a Premium Member of gc.com. Because of his Business he has to operate under another screen name until he is ready to "Come Out". He has a business in Borrego Springs and is reluctant to cause too many waves publicly. Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen or at least support compliance.

it does make you wonder How come Rebbeca (fossillady) does not know him. 000201C0.gif

 

:D:D
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I just want to say one more thing. We are all on the same side here. I guess I got a little frustrated because Marco and Miss Jenn asked us to wait and not do anything until they had time to negotiate. The negotiations failed with Jorgensen. However, now they need more time to work their way up the ladder. It has only been 3 weeks. 3 weeks is nothing. I think it's entirely reasonable to give them 60 days to work their way up the ladder. I think it's a sound strategy to show that San Diego geocachers are a cooperative group and are willing to work with the parks to create a win-win outcome for both sides. Hiding pirate caches is uncooperative and therefore undermines the current strategy. So why not give Groundspeak 60 days to try a strategy that has been successful before? This was my entire point. :D

Edited by TrailGators
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I sent a request to ABDSP (anzaborrego@parks.ca.gov) on 12/28 to review the earthcaches I already have out there. I haven't even gotten an acknowledgement that they received the request. :drama:

 

I guess they have been too busy in the negotiations and removing the traditionals. :drama:

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I sent a request to ABDSP (anzaborrego@parks.ca.gov) on 12/28 to review the earthcaches I already have out there. I haven't even gotten an acknowledgement that they received the request. :drama:

 

I guess they have been too busy in the negotiations and removing the traditionals. :drama:

If you read what Jorgensen wrote in an email posted above (post 207), it sounds like he has no issue with virtuals or earthcaches. Edited by TrailGators
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