JustRuns

I wonder if lostguy works for Richard H. Jorgensen, the Superintendent of the Park. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope that MissJenn is aware of that. Some folks can't just leave well enough alone. They feel the need to just keep rubbing salt in the wound although they may never have found any of the caches involved in the conversation. From their profile page "Occupation - Avoiding pompous asses, full time employment...trust me". I'll just bet that is difficult if you have any mirrors in your home.

Negotiations with Government Employees (Civil Servants) is fruitless. They do not respond to common sense arguments or logic. Civil Servants ONLY respond to political pressure. Discussions should be with Elected Officials.

"This is getting tiresome but it's time for a quote from the GC Guidelines that we all have agreed to follow as geocachers: Off-limit (Physical) Caches "In addition, there may be local regulations already in place for certain types of parks in your region (state parks, county preserves, etc.). " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, are you saying that because of the above GC Guidelines Geocachers cannot protest against a policy? I see why abdspgeocacher needs to use a screen name because being open with his identity might affect his business given the responses his effort at non-violent civil disobedience against an arbitrary policy. What a coincidence for this holiday weekend. If you are tired, take a rest.

Wow, that was below the belt. "All we are saying is give peace Miss Jenn a chance." Jorgensen has no cards left. He played his only card by forbidding caches and by removing caches. Unless gc.com gives up by complying voluntarily, there is nothing Jorgensen can do. He cannot force gc.com to comply. He has no Power. All gc.com needs to do is say to Jorgensen is, "Unless you agree to Reasonable controls, we will allow caches in the park to be posted no the gc.com site. " GC.com can't lose if they stand up to him. Think about it!

abdspgeocacher has said repeadly , if a "Reasonable" agreement is reached with gc.com he will take down his pirate site and remove his pirate caches. That is why he hasn't yet published any coordinates or opened his site to the public. He is hoping Jorgensen will arrive at a true compromise. Allowing earthcaches is no compromise. abdspgeocacher agrees that some areas should be off limits and perhaps only microcaches allowed. He is a Premium Member of gc.com. Because of his Business he has to operate under another screen name until he is ready to "Come Out". He has a business in Borrego Springs and is reluctant to cause too many waves publicly. Particularly since it appears so many gc.com members seem to agree with Jorgensen or at least support compliance. I met the guy and he is sincere. He is also concerned about the environment like all geocachers. His point is that unless Jorgensen is forced to change the policy he will not.

If the policy changes to a more reasonable one it won't be because gc.com "negotiated" it. It will be because the Jorgensen, or his superiors, realized that there is nothing they can do to stop geocaching in the Park. All they can do is agree to moderated caches if gc.com stands up to them.

"Do you understand how what abdspgeocacher did could hurt all of us? I think if people don't understand this, then we will keep taking steps backward" How can it hurt us further? He is already doing all he can do. That is have his staff remove caches. There is no way he can stop earthcaches. Please tell what more can he do.

Jorgensen's policy can only work if Groundspeak complies.

"No one was holding a metaphoric gun to Nixon's head when he declared "Peace with Honor". " What????? You are re-writing History. You must be young. Nixon WAS forced to extract us from Viet Nam. Maybe if we set around and hold hands at a campfire and sing camp songs with Jorgensen he will compromise. I think not. By the way his compromise so far is to "Allow" Earthcaches. That's no compromise. Jorgensen has no power at all to prevent Earthcaches and he knows it. He could do nothing if Groundspeak allows earthcaches, or any other cache types, to be posted just like he has no power to prevent guide books from publishing directions to sites in the Park. By the way, I appreciate the fact that we can disagree and remain civil with each other on this Board. Usually disagreements on message boards descend into Flame Wars.

"If you have a low level of positional authority (e.g. a geocacher) and want something from someone who has a high level of positional authority (e.g. a park superintendent), DO NOT (I repeat DO NOT) punch them in the nose! Do not continuously poke them with a pointy stick! Do not stomp on their toes! Do not place a flaming bag of s*** on their front porch and ring the doorbell! It's NOT going to convince them to change their minds. " Let's see. Jorgensen is a "High Authority" and a citizen (read tax payer) is a "Low Authority". So I guess you are saying we need to be afraid of "pissing off" a government official. Sorry but that's not what I call democracy. I can't say I agree with the idea of Pirate caches but I do applaud abdspgeocacher for doing something rather than "Rolling Over" like it appears most here suggest. I guess I don't understand what Jorgensen could do if Groundspeak refused to comply and simply continued to allow caches within the Park to be posted. Continue to follow the previous policy of reviewing locations etc. as Marco has done for a long time. Sure, Park personnel could remove them one by one but soon they would get tired of doing that. With budget cuts looming, they won't have the budget to do it much longer anyway. Maybe the Budget Cuts the the Governator is talking about will lay off Jorgensen.

"Don't get into a Pi--ing Match with someone who has more Pi-- than you" Really! So just "Roll Over"? If we had followed that theory in the 60s there would still be Segregation, there would not be Voting Rights legislation or any of the Civil Rights legislation. We would probably have lost another 68,000 young men in Viet Nam. We stood up to Authority and got changes made. Those in power don't change unles they are forced to change. You don't get changes without making change.

I met abdspgeocacher in Borrego Springs before the holidays. He and his partner are avid geocachers and they own a business in Borrego Srpings. Their business depends on tourists and many of their customers geocache. They feel Jorgensen's policy will negatively impact theirs and others business unnecessiarly. Abdspgeocacher copied me on his emails to Jorgensen. and Jorgensen's reply. Too bad the rest of the messages he sent Jorgensen, and the replies, weren't included here. Abdspgeocacher wrote that all the pirate caches would be removed if Jorgensen made a reasonable accomodation allowing controlled caches. Jorgensen's reply was dismissive. Abdspgeocacher's objective is to convince Jorgensen to modify the policy to allow caches that comply with some reasonable rules. You may not agree with his method of convincing Jorgensen but at least he is not simply "laying down" without a fight. Maybe it is his and my age. We were young adults in the 1960s. We protested using civil disobedience when government officials were wrong! We failed sometimes but often we got changes done. I cheer him on for doing something rather than simply complying. Roger Mullins Crest justruns@cox.net

I understand that the Superintendent of the Park has decided to forbid geocaching within the Park and that existing caches will be removed by Park staff. I'm not sure of the reasons but have been told that the Superintendent feels that Geocachers damage the environment as well as historic or archelogical sites. While there may be a few "bad apples" who geocache it has been my experience that the vast majority treasure and protect the environment. If the concern is that some historical or arecheolgical sites might be damaged it would be reasonable to put some limits on where caches could be placed. I believe that the geocaching moderators already enforce some rules for where caches can be placed. In my opinion banning them outright is an overreaction by the Superintendent. Geocachers bring a lot of visitors to the Park, I think that is what the Park wants. Geocachers also spend a lot of money in Borrego Springs and surrounding communities. There will be a negative impact on the business community catering to Park visitors if Geocachers do not visit the Park. There already is talk of setting up a "Pirate" geocaching website to post new caches within the Park. Those will not be "Moderated" and may not be in areas the Park would prefer. The purpose of the "Pirate" site will be to place as many geocaches in the Park as possible to convince the Park Superintendent that it is better to have "reasonable" restrictions on Moderated caches than the alternative Pirate caches.

We are in San Diego, how about you? *********************************** quote:Originally posted by L.O.S.T.DarbyWalters:Starting to get some people interested in geocache. We have 4 National Runs planned this spring/summer. We are thinking about the same thing. We have over 250 members on our forum which is less than 6 months old. http://pub21.ezboard.com/bkjjeep Got a couple members with GPSr ( I have a Gamin Street Pilot III ) that wight be interested. Runs are planned for Paragon, PA...Moab, Ut...Big Bear, Ca...Barnwell Mountain, Tx. L.O.S.T. #000001 ( Liberty Owners Special Team ) Garmin Street Pilot III...my first GPS

We're in the San Diego area. How about you? ------------------------------------- quote:Originally posted by Renegade Knight:How about a wheeler wannabe? I've got a 92 Bronco 32" tires that I bought while realizing how much time and work my $500 75 Blazer was going to be to get it doing ANYTHING... Wherever you go there you are.

Several members of my 4WD Club are also active Geocachers. We've begun placing Geocaches while on our Runs. I'd like to communicate with other 4 wheelers who also Geocache. Roger JustRuns 4WD Club of San Diegojustruns@cox.net