Physical geocaches prohibited in ABDSP?

[+mmcgr]

Arizona State Parks too, next week. Excerpt below:

 

February 23 - Cattail Cove State Park

Geo Cache Bash February 232nd Annual Geo Cache Bash

 

Listen to Audio Update about this Event Audio Update Icon

 

Family Friendly Event Discover all 12 hidden treasures to be found at Cattail Cove State Park during the 2nd annual Geo Cache Bash. Come for the beauty and the exercise. Be sure to bring your handheld GPS unit with you. Listen to an interview with Cattail Cove Park Manager Gary Peaslee & Volunteer Host Nancy Winters Koenig explain the basics of Geo Caching, including how it started and good geo caching practices on public lands. Plus, learn what will be happening at this event on February 23. Additionally, a brief explanation of Cattail Cove's 28 Boat-in campsites. Listen to the Audio Update

 

This event starts at 10 am. Please bring your GPS unit with you if you have one. Call 928.855.1223 for more information.

 

Link to full document: http://www.pr.state.az.us/text/calendar.html#geocache

[+mmcgr]

Arizona State Parks too, next week. Excerpt below:

 

February 23 - Cattail Cove State Park

Geo Cache Bash February 232nd Annual Geo Cache Bash

 

Listen to Audio Update about this Event Audio Update Icon

 

Family Friendly Event Discover all 12 hidden treasures to be found at Cattail Cove State Park during the 2nd annual Geo Cache Bash. Come for the beauty and the exercise. Be sure to bring your handheld GPS unit with you. Listen to an interview with Cattail Cove Park Manager Gary Peaslee & Volunteer Host Nancy Winters Koenig explain the basics of Geo Caching, including how it started and good geo caching practices on public lands. Plus, learn what will be happening at this event on February 23. Additionally, a brief explanation of Cattail Cove's 28 Boat-in campsites. Listen to the Audio Update

 

This event starts at 10 am. Please bring your GPS unit with you if you have one. Call 928.855.1223 for more information.

 

Link to full document: http://www.pr.state.az.us/text/calendar.html#geocache

This link is to a formal policy document put out by Colorado's Roxborough State Park: http://parks.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/B3AB...xGeocaching.pdf

[+Jeepergeo]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

[+Miragee]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

[the voice of reason]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

[+dhsundance]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Shutup, you pathetic sock puppet! You're lower than a troll- at least they don't hide behind fictitious names.

Maybe you need a guide to find your misplaced 'reason'.

[the voice of reason]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Shutup, you pathetic sock puppet! You're lower than a troll- at least they don't hide behind fictitious names.

Maybe you need a guide to find your misplaced 'reason'.

 

Temper, temper little boy.

[+Eric and Hill]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Shutup, you pathetic sock puppet! You're lower than a troll- at least they don't hide behind fictitious names.

Maybe you need a guide to find your misplaced 'reason'.

 

Temper, temper little boy.

 

Go back under your bridge troll. No one wants to hear your pos comments that only serve to piss people off.

[+Toby's Gang]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2008 by Toby's Gang

[+Akop&fam]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

And, in the Ocotillo Wells area, I sure haven't seen anything like this, which is in the Domelands area.

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Shutup, you pathetic sock puppet! You're lower than a troll- at least they don't hide behind fictitious names.

Maybe you need a guide to find your misplaced 'reason'.

 

 

Temper, temper little boy.

 

Go back under your bridge troll. No one wants to hear your pos comments that only serve to piss people off.

 

Voice of Reason,

 

You hide under a fake name. Personally I think you have no balls. You probaly sit at home on your computer all day on you fat a**, & wish you could have lives like ours. I pity you. None of us need a box of trinkets at the end of our destination. We have a compassion for sharing, being competitive & challenging ourselves. Even though I don't know everybody that participates personally I have the up most respect for their passion of adventure. As me & others we enjoy reading each others logs seeing where they go & what they do.

 

Now you can commet & say "Temper Temper" but remember you opened this attack. You were the one that started the belittling & verbal abuse. Now how about you coming out from behind your mask.

 

Alan K.

[+Snake & Rooster]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

Geocaching does not have any impact on the environment . . . Some of the caches that were removed had been found only six times in the past year. Also, in the Ocotillo Wells area, there just isn't any scenery like this, which is near where the Powder Can Cache was located.

 

Nor is there evidence of past History such as this:

 

 

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

 

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Shutup, you pathetic sock puppet! You're lower than a troll- at least they don't hide behind fictitious names.

Maybe you need a guide to find your misplaced 'reason'.

 

 

Temper, temper little boy.

 

Go back under your bridge troll. No one wants to hear your pos comments that only serve to piss people off.

 

Voice of Reason,

 

You hide under a fake name. Personally I think you have no balls. You probaly sit at home on your computer all day on you fat a**, & wish you could have lives like ours. I pity you. None of us need a box of trinkets at the end of our destination. We have a compassion for sharing, being competitive & challenging ourselves. Even though I don't know everybody that participates personally I have the up most respect for their passion of adventure. As me & others we enjoy reading each others logs seeing where they go & what they do.

 

Now you can commet & say "Temper Temper" but remember you opened this attack. You were the one that started the belittling & verbal abuse. Now how about you coming out from behind your mask.

 

Alan K.

 

Please don't feed the trolls. If you ignore it, it will go away. It is feeding on your anger. Don't give it what it wants.

[+Team Cotati]

Those Utah links look strangely familiar.

Edited February 17, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Moose Mob]

Issue handled, time to get back on topic.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Why must there be a box of trinkets at the end of your trail?

You poor soul, not know the feeling of discovering somewhere new on your own.

It must suck to need a guide to enjoy the desert.

 

Why must there be a trail to guide your way?

Why must there be a park to tell us what we can enjoy and discover?

Why does one think that there is no room for many paths to discovery?

 

There need be no box, nor trail, nor park. Discovery happens with or without these.

And yet, there they are, to be enjoyed.

 

That's what this thread is about. Enjoying one more thing that does get pepole out in the world.

Edited February 17, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+TrailGators]

I am very indebted to the cachers who put caches in those locations giving me the opportunity to see those places and have wonderful memories of caching in ABDSP.

I am also grateful to the locals for showing me the cool spots out there. I'm not a native San Diegan and geocaching has really shown me a side of this area that no other activity would have been as effcient at doing. I don't have a huge amount of time to discover every cool spot in over 600,000 acres of ABDSP on my own. So caching has done an awesome job at highlighting the coolest areas. I'm sure it also helps people traveling from other parts of the country that visit the park. There are far more positives about geocaching than negatives. I wish the rangers out there would see that. Edited February 17, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Jeepergeo]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

 

Whoa!!! What happened here?

 

The point was, if ABDSP is off limits, regardless of whether the limits are right or wrong, there are plenty of alternative places where geocaching can take place, whether the caches are physical caches or virtual caches.

[+bajaja]

Ok, I'm late to the game, but having just been notified that my Hungry Fox Cache has been removed, I'd like to give my opinion.

 

Bajaja, Mrs. and the Bug are not big cachers, but we have occasionally gone out of our way to find some. It's another fun activity that gets the family together out in the fresh air. We placed three in ABDSP, pulled one a year or so ago, and basically let the other two run on autopilot, checking them at least once a year. All of them were placed in non-sensitive areas, in clearly marked metal cans. We honestly didn't know there were rules, as such, about putting them within a certain distance of established trails or not using cairns, but I'm satisified that the placements did no damage to the surrounding area. I do know that our caches gave others pleasure seeking out and finding them in areas people may not have otherwise gone to. I know that the ones we found did the same for us.

 

I admittedly came into this activity with mixed feelings. We spend a lot of time in the park, and have travelled nearly every foot of road, some of it while caching. We've seen lots of damage caused by casual visitors, off roaders, migrants, and yes, cachers. People are people, and not everybody is perfect. Anytime we see trash, we pick it up. We'll stop the jeep dozens of times during a weekend to grab that beer can on the side of the road, or hike hundreds of yards through brush just to get that wayward balloon. We've taken out 30 gallon trashbags full of old backpacks and clothes left by migrants. And we removed a cache that had been placed in a plastic container, which subsequently broke into a brazillian pieces, scattering trash everywhere. Stuff happens, but it's certainly not just from cachers. That said, we, cachers and casual visitors alike, should ensure that we don't adversely affect the park, and that means staying away from sensitive sites, watering holes, and delicate landscapes such as mud hills.

 

I have no problem with the park wanting to regulate caching within its boundaries. I'm actually for that. But they way they went about pulling caches and setting an absolute ban galls me. The belief that they can regulate virtual caches is absurd. But really, keep in mind that given the opportunity, the park management would close off most of the park to visitors, period. They view people as being a pox upon their land. And in their minds, it is their land, not yours and mine. They want to restrict you to their concrete parking lots, campgrounds, and visitor centers. Closing off Truckhaven and Mortero Wash won't be the last of their attempts to make large tracts of park off-limits. Mark my words.

 

To those who are truly involved in this hobby, I suggest a couple of things. First, immediately pull your support for maintaining the highway that runs through the park, and make that decision known to the media. Let everybody know that if you're going to be accused of leaving "trash", then you have no reason to assist the park in picking it up formally. It's a slap in the face to see that sign and know how you've been treated.

 

Second, stop by the visitor's center and let them know why you're not going to buy that tshirt or book from them. Be nice, be respectful, but let them know that if you're going to be made to feel unwanted, you'll take your money elsewhere. Likewise, if you run into a ranger, let them know how you feel. Your tax dollars pay for this park, you should feel comfortable letting the staff understand your concerns about how the park is being operated.

 

Finally, make it a point of going out into the park and creating as many virtual caches as possible. Find those great places and let others know about them. You really don't need to leave something physical in order to have fun. The idea is to get out and enjoy the land. And you don't need MJ's blessing to publish locations. Maybe it's time we had a little harmless fun at his expense to remind him who truly owns the park.

 

The Bajaja family thanks everyone who had caches in ABDSP that we visited. We'll look forward to your replacement virtuals, and we'll be doing our own in the coming months.

Bajaja

Edited February 17, 2008 by bajaja

[+Team Cotati]

Ok, I'm late to the game, but having just been notified that my Hungry Fox Cache has been removed, I'd like to give my opinion.

 

Bajaja, Mrs. and the Bug are not big cachers, but we have occasionally gone out of our way to find some. It's another fun activity that gets the family together out in the fresh air. We placed three in ABDSP, pulled one a year or so ago, and basically let the other two run on autopilot, checking them at least once a year. All of them were placed in non-sensitive areas, in clearly marked metal cans. We honestly didn't know there were rules, as such, about putting them within a certain distance of established trails or not using cairns, but I'm satisified that the placements did no damage to the surrounding area. I do know that our caches gave others pleasure seeking out and finding them in areas people may not have otherwise gone to. I know that the ones we found did the same for us.

 

I admittedly came into this activity with mixed feelings. We spend a lot of time in the park, and have travelled nearly every foot of road, some of it while caching. We've seen lots of damage caused by casual visitors, off roaders, migrants, and yes, cachers. People are people, and not everybody is perfect. Anytime we see trash, we pick it up. We'll stop the jeep dozens of times during a weekend to grab that beer can on the side of the road, or hike hundreds of yards through brush just to get that wayward balloon. We've taken out 30 gallon trashbags full of old backpacks and clothes left by migrants. And we removed a cache that had been placed in a plastic container, which subsequently broke into a brazillian pieces, scattering trash everywhere. Stuff happens, but it's certainly not just from cachers. That said, we, cachers and casual visitors alike, should ensure that we don't adversely affect the park, and that means staying away from sensitive sites, watering holes, and delicate landscapes such as mud hills.

 

I have no problem with the park wanting to regulate caching within its boundaries. I'm actually for that. But they way they went about pulling caches and setting an absolute ban galls me. The belief that they can regulate virtual caches is absurd. But really, keep in mind that given the opportunity, the park management would close off most of the park to visitors, period. They view people as being a pox upon their land. And in their minds, it is their land, not yours and mine. They want to restrict you to their concrete parking lots, campgrounds, and visitor centers. Closing off Truckhaven and Mortero Wash won't be the last of their attempts to make large tracts of park off-limits. Mark my words.

 

To those who are truly involved in this hobby, I suggest a couple of things. First, immediately pull your support for maintaining the highway that runs through the park, and make that decision known to the media. Let everybody know that if you're going to be accused of leaving "trash", then you have no reason to assist the park in picking it up formally. It's a slap in the face to see that sign and know how you've been treated.

 

Second, stop by the visitor's center and let them know why you're not going to buy that tshirt or book from them. Be nice, be respectful, but let them know that if you're going to be made to feel unwanted, you'll take your money elsewhere. Likewise, if you run into a ranger, let them know how you feel. Your tax dollars pay for this park, you should feel comfortable letting the staff understand your concerns about how the park is being operated.

 

Finally, make it a point of going out into the park and creating as many virtual caches as possible. Find those great places and let others know about them. You really don't need to leave something physical in order to have fun. The idea is to get out and enjoy the land. And you don't need MJ's blessing to publish locations. Maybe it's time we had a little harmless fun at his expense to remind him who truly owns the park.

 

The Bajaja family thanks everyone who had caches in ABDSP that we visited. We'll look forward to your replacement virtuals, and we'll be doing our own in the coming months.

Bajaja

 

I'm sorry but I must have missed a very important piece of information along the way. When were virtual caches re-activated as a permissible cache type in ABDSP? Great news if accurate.

 

Thank you.

 

And you're advising for people to enter into some sort of 'urinating contest' with the people who run and administer ABDSP? Uh yeah, let us all know how that works out, will you?

Edited February 18, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

I'm not sure how much a help/hinderance the earthcaches are to allowing traditionals in the park.

 

I've tried contacting the Super about the existing earthcaches I have in the park and have not had a response yet.

 

 

How the heck will they remove an Earthcache.

 

Why does that matter?

[+Team Fatman]

It is now in San Diego . I was with Bob AKA Fattboy this morning and we were by Catus Co. park across from the fair grounds close to were he had a TB Hotel. And there is a steel bridge there so we stopped to look about putting a hide there, and just as I was getting to the bridge the rangers pulled up behind Bob's truck and asked what we are doing? We tell here that I lost my dog and am looking for it. Then she leaves, then pulls over and watches me get into the truck. So as we go by them and turn around they drive up to us and she says so you lost your dog and i say ya. Then Bob says that we are also looking at the bridge for a hide for Geocaching and she says forget it no hides in the parks. So i ask were is the park and see lets me know the name of the park and whats funny is there is a barb wire fence with no trespassing signs up to the bridge then after the bridge but no fence are signs. So it just not the desert its close to home.

[+SKILLET]

If Anza Borrego Desert State Park is off limits, consider caching in the the huge Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area next door. I can't imagine a cache site having any impact to Ocotillo Wells, at least when compared to the impacts of the vehicular recreation that goes on there.

 

I have over 100 Cache in the Off Road Area and just placed 12 more this weekend. It's a big area if you count all the BLM land South of the park.

[+bajaja]

 

I'm sorry but I must have missed a very important piece of information along the way. When were virtual caches re-activated as a permissible cache type in ABDSP? Great news if accurate.

 

Thank you.

 

And you're advising for people to enter into some sort of 'urinating contest' with the people who run and administer ABDSP? Uh yeah, let us all know how that works out, will you?

 

Gee dude, you sound a bit constipated. Are you sure you're getting enough fiber in your diet? Maybe looking for something more difficult than an 1/1 would help as well.

[+TrailGators]

And you're advising for people to enter into some sort of 'urinating contest' with the people who run and administer ABDSP?

Gee dude, you sound a bit constipated. Are you sure you're getting enough fiber in your diet?

I was thinking that he was eating too much fiber, because his constant BS is stinking up our local threads....

[+figtreesky]

Ok, I have a really strange situation here. I recieved a note from someone named notaranger about my Isolation Point Cache saying that it is within Anza-Borrego state park limits. The thing is, though, no map indicates that it's within the park. I've checked yahoo, google earth, google map, Topo, and even the parks official map and none of them indicate it's inside the park boundaries.

 

So I contacted notaranger, and I got a thoughtful response stating that the park has recently aquired new parcels of land and it was implied that my cache was on that land. Be that is it may, I don't know if their information is correct, if it's incorrect, or if this whole thing is just a big prank. I haven't heard back from notaranger after their initial response.

 

I am also worried that my cache would get vandalized and stolen by who ever notaranger even if the cache is not actually in the park. For safe major, I dissabled the cache and retrieved it today until I can get this weird episode straightened out.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed? It seems like I have to contact the park itself and confirm the boundaries.

[+TrailGators]

Ok, I have a really strange situation here. I recieved a note from someone named notaranger about my Isolation Point Cache saying that it is within Anza-Borrego state park limits. The thing is, though, no map indicates that it's within the park. I've checked yahoo, google earth, google map, Topo, and even the parks official map and none of them indicate it's inside the park boundaries.

 

So I contacted notaranger, and I got a thoughtful response stating that the park has recently aquired new parcels of land and it was implied that my cache was on that land. Be that is it may, I don't know if their information is correct, if it's incorrect, or if this whole thing is just a big prank. I haven't heard back from notaranger after their initial response.

 

I am also worried that my cache would get vandalized and stolen by who ever notaranger even if the cache is not actually in the park. For safe major, I dissabled the cache and retrieved it today until I can get this weird episode straightened out.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed? It seems like I have to contact the park itself and confirm the boundaries.

The park should post it's correct boundaries, how else are we supposed to know?

[+Team Cotati]

Ok, I have a really strange situation here. I recieved a note from someone named notaranger about my Isolation Point Cache saying that it is within Anza-Borrego state park limits. The thing is, though, no map indicates that it's within the park. I've checked yahoo, google earth, google map, Topo, and even the parks official map and none of them indicate it's inside the park boundaries.

 

So I contacted notaranger, and I got a thoughtful response stating that the park has recently aquired new parcels of land and it was implied that my cache was on that land. Be that is it may, I don't know if their information is correct, if it's incorrect, or if this whole thing is just a big prank. I haven't heard back from notaranger after their initial response.

 

I am also worried that my cache would get vandalized and stolen by who ever notaranger even if the cache is not actually in the park. For safe major, I dissabled the cache and retrieved it today until I can get this weird episode straightened out.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed? It seems like I have to contact the park itself and confirm the boundaries.

The park should post it's correct boundaries, how else are we supposed to know?

 

Ask.

[+figtreesky]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

[+figtreesky]

I'm worried about a scenario that there are people/person out there that will now use the ban of caches in the park as some sort pretext to take any cache even if it's outside the park.

[+TrailGators]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property. Edited February 20, 2008 by TrailGators

[+blondemongo]

Ok, I have a really strange situation here. I recieved a note from someone named notaranger about my Isolation Point Cache saying that it is within Anza-Borrego state park limits. The thing is, though, no map indicates that it's within the park. I've checked yahoo, google earth, google map, Topo, and even the parks official map and none of them indicate it's inside the park boundaries.

 

So I contacted notaranger, and I got a thoughtful response stating that the park has recently aquired new parcels of land and it was implied that my cache was on that land. Be that is it may, I don't know if their information is correct, if it's incorrect, or if this whole thing is just a big prank. I haven't heard back from notaranger after their initial response.

 

I am also worried that my cache would get vandalized and stolen by who ever notaranger even if the cache is not actually in the park. For safe major, I dissabled the cache and retrieved it today until I can get this weird episode straightened out.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to proceed? It seems like I have to contact the park itself and confirm the boundaries.

 

Looks like your Geocache is placed in the Cuyamaca Ranch or Lucky5 Ranch area.

Information on the Conservation land can be found here, but it doesn't necessarily state that ABDSP maintains these lands.

 

http://www.conserveland.com/projects.html

http://www.conserveland.com/images/cuyamaca_web_brochure.pdf

http://www.conserveland.com/images/Cuyamaca_owner.pdf

http://www.conserveland.com/images/lucky5_web_brochure.pdf

[+figtreesky]

I stand corrected. The Lucky 5 Ranch was evidently acquired by the park.

 

My apologies to notaranger.

 

Well... I now have a cache ready to go to be placed somewhere else with a lot of cool stuff in it. Now I just got figure out where to put it. I think I might try an application to Ranch Cuyamaca State Park.

[+Renegade Knight]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property.

The Law is meaningless if cache owners are not willing to call the park on the issue. That's going to take an attorney and money. The law will probably find they are not following the law in dealing with caches.

[+TrailGators]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property.

The Law is meaningless if cache owners are not willing to call the park on the issue. That's going to take an attorney and money. The law will probably find they are not following the law in dealing with caches.

What about small claims court? It's only $30 to file in CA and you don't need a lawyer. Seems like people could collect for their time and gas money to drive out there and place/maintain their caches. Many caches had valuable coins/swag that were lost. I agree that the law should protect these people since there was a clear written agreement with the park. They should have given cachers at least 90 days to pick up their caches after the policy change. Now it's a mess and people don't even know if their caches are still out there or not. Edited February 20, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Team Cotati]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property.

The Law is meaningless if cache owners are not willing to call the park on the issue. That's going to take an attorney and money. The law will probably find they are not following the law in dealing with caches.

What about small claims court? It's only $30 to file in CA and you don't need a lawyer. Seems like people could collect for their time and gas money to drive out there and place/maintain their caches. Many caches had valuable coins/swag that were lost. I agree that the law should protect these people since there was a clear written agreement with the park. They should have given cachers at least 90 days to pick up their caches after the policy change. Now it's a mess and people don't even know if their caches are still out there or not.

 

Geeze people, since we are still at at step one (the longest but most important step) in the negotiations with the park's management, don't you think that there is ever the slightest chance that you might be jumping the gun with this take 'em to court mentality? Or are you just hedging your bets and getting ready for battle?

[+TrailGators]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property.

The Law is meaningless if cache owners are not willing to call the park on the issue. That's going to take an attorney and money. The law will probably find they are not following the law in dealing with caches.

What about small claims court? It's only $30 to file in CA and you don't need a lawyer. Seems like people could collect for their time and gas money to drive out there and place/maintain their caches. Many caches had valuable coins/swag that were lost. I agree that the law should protect these people since there was a clear written agreement with the park. They should have given cachers at least 90 days to pick up their caches after the policy change. Now it's a mess and people don't even know if their caches are still out there or not.

 

Geeze people, since we are still at at step one (the longest but most important step) in the negotiations with the park's management, don't you think that there is ever the slightest chance that you might be jumping the gun with this take 'em to court mentality? Or are you just hedging your bets and getting ready for battle?

 

We are just discussing ideas. That is the purpose of a discussion forum...

[+Team Cotati]

Even if I know the correct boundaries and my cache is compliant, what's preventing notaranger from taking it anyway regardless of it being compliant or not?

How about the law? People aren't allowed to go around stealing private property.

The Law is meaningless if cache owners are not willing to call the park on the issue. That's going to take an attorney and money. The law will probably find they are not following the law in dealing with caches.

What about small claims court? It's only $30 to file in CA and you don't need a lawyer. Seems like people could collect for their time and gas money to drive out there and place/maintain their caches. Many caches had valuable coins/swag that were lost. I agree that the law should protect these people since there was a clear written agreement with the park. They should have given cachers at least 90 days to pick up their caches after the policy change. Now it's a mess and people don't even know if their caches are still out there or not.

 

Geeze people, since we are still at at step one (the longest but most important step) in the negotiations with the park's management, don't you think that there is ever the slightest chance that you might be jumping the gun with this take 'em to court mentality? Or are you just hedging your bets and getting ready for battle?

 

We are just discussing ideas. That is the purpose of a discussion forum...

 

Oh yeah, right. Carry on.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Geeze people, since we are still at at step one (the longest but most important step) in the negotiations with the park's management, don't you think that there is ever the slightest chance that you might be jumping the gun with this take 'em to court mentality? Or are you just hedging your bets and getting ready for battle?

 

Step 1 was for a nameless park system to revoke existing policy. Step 2 was for that same nameless park system to start the round up of caches. Step 3 was to rationalize the law to justify step 2 in light of step 1. I could have steps 2 and 3 reversed.

 

Cachers didn't know about anything until step 4. However steps 1-3 did set the tone the park wanted to work within on the issue.

[+TrailGators]

There are a lots of potential courses of action depending on what happens. I think it's completely wrong for agents of ABDSP to dispose of people's personal property. SDRP changed their policy in 2004 and they were decent enough to hold everyone's caches at the ranger station for people to pick up. We later worked out a geocaching policy with SDRP, and life has been happy ever since. This is what I'm hoping will happen with ABDSP. In the meantime, I think they should stop disposing people's private property like it's common trash. It would be interesting to see if a court would view a geocache as common trash. I seriously doubt it...

[+FlagMan]

Don't forget that Marko Ramius and Miss Jenn have both had fruitless discussions with Jorgenson. There are still discussions going on, but it certainly isn't outside of the realm of reality to be discussing litigation (civil and criminal) as one of several options. I hope the Rangers realize that they have exposed themselves to potentially significant liability for very little reason. Geocachers are not to blame for any perceived impacts at ABDSP, and the actions that were taken were arbitrary and capricious. Removing and destroying caches that were placed with express authorization is, at best, a taking in violation of the 5th Amendment and, at worst, acts of larceny.

Edited February 20, 2008 by FlagMan

[+Miragee]

...Geeze people, since we are still at at step one (the longest but most important step) in the negotiations with the park's management, don't you think that there is ever the slightest chance that you might be jumping the gun with this take 'em to court mentality? Or are you just hedging your bets and getting ready for battle?

 

Step 1 was for a nameless park system to revoke existing policy. Step 2 was for that same nameless park system to start the round up of caches. Step 3 was to rationalize the law to justify step 2 in light of step 1. I could have steps 2 and 3 reversed.

 

Cachers didn't know about anything until step 4. However steps 1-3 did set the tone the park wanted to work within on the issue.

Actually, in the case of some caches, "Step 2" came long before "Step 1." Caches had been being removed from the park for months prior to this notice on the "Lucky Ducky 13 "cache that was placed by people who are very sensitive to the environment and the attributes offered by ABDSP.

 

December 26, 2007 by Notaranger (5 found)

This cache has been removed. See below.

By order of the:

 

Superintendent

 

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park

 

Colorado Desert District

 

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY

 

Numerous geocaches have been placed within the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park without authorization. No consideration was given to resource sensitivity in the placement of any of these geocaches, and many have been discovered in very sensitive locales. Caches have been removed from archeological sites, paleontological areas, bighorn sheep watering sites and in sensitive caves.

 

All physical geocaches placed within Anza-Borrego Desert State Park must be removed. If the cache owner does not take responsibility for removing his/her own cache, it will be removed for them and it will not be returned.

 

As of this date, December 21, 2007, placement of new physical caches will be prohibited in Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. Virtual Earth Caches will be considered on a case by case basis and must be approved before being

 

published on the Geocaching.com website.

 

 

Contact information for Earth cache approval:

 

Mark C. Jorgensen

 

Superintendent

 

Anza-Borrego Desert State Park

 

200 Palm Canyon Drive

 

Borrego Springs, CA 92004

 

In fact, considering the uproar that has ensued since this cache was removed, it is somewhat ironic that part of the description of that cache incudes this statement

Although we are sure there was plenty of work to do, we imagine this was a happy place with kids running around playing on the hill sides under their mother's watch. The tribe has gone, but there is a sense of peace in the valley. If you take a moment to sit down and close your eyes, we are sure you will feel it as well.

The date of that note was December 26th! Right in the middle of the Holiday Season.

 

That was one of the first notices any of us received, but only if a cache that got such a Note was on a Bookmark List or Watchlist.

 

The lack of notice for the change in Policy, and the stealing of the cache containers, some of which had been in place for more than seven years, is inexcusable.

[+TerryDad2]

I also have to wonder about the seriousness of the Park's statement of even considering earthcaches when Jorgensen does not even reply to requests to approve existing earthcaches or new ones.

 

I realize that a note was posted in the forum approving some, but posts on a forum don’t take the place of an “official” response. The post also did not address all the earthcaches in the park nor my request to place additional ones.

 

I also would not accept an excuse that the staff is overworked as they had the time to respond to other e-mails sent regarding this issue as shown by previous posts.

 

As a side note, Carpenteria State Beach denied a placement for cultural/erosion control, but the adjoining City Park approved it. Mugu State Park approved 2 (a and b). Mugu also has many traditional ones as well.

[+Team Cotati]

I also have to wonder about the seriousness of the Park's statement of even considering earthcaches when Jorgensen does not even reply to requests to approve existing earthcaches or new ones.

 

I realize that a note was posted in the forum approving some, but posts on a forum don’t take the place of an “official” response. The post also did not address all the earthcaches in the park nor my request to place additional ones.

 

I also would not accept an excuse that the staff is overworked as they had the time to respond to other e-mails sent regarding this issue as shown by previous posts.

 

As a side note, Carpenteria State Beach denied a placement for cultural/erosion control, but the adjoining City Park approved it. Mugu State Park approved 2 (a and b). Mugu also has many traditional ones as well.

 

It occurs to me that this is an excellent question for MissJenn. Who reportedly has been in frequent contact with the park management supposedly discussing this very topic among others.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

Don't forget that Marko Ramius and Miss Jenn have both had fruitless discussions with Jorgenson. There are still discussions going on, but it certainly isn't outside of the realm of reality to be discussing litigation (civil and criminal) as one of several options. I hope the Rangers realize that they have exposed themselves to potentially significant liability for very little reason. Geocachers are not to blame for any perceived impacts at ABDSP, and the actions that were taken were arbitrary and capricious. Removing and destroying caches that were placed with express authorization is, at best, a taking in violation of the 5th Amendment and, at worst, acts of larceny.

 

"Don't forget that Marko Ramius and Miss Jenn have both had fruitless discussions with Jorgenson. " First that I've heard about that. Most recently there have been, admittedly vague, suggestions that there was being measurable, positive progress made. Looks as though the fact based truth in this regard is missing in action.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

I also have to wonder about the seriousness of the Park's statement of even considering earthcaches when Jorgensen does not even reply to requests to approve existing earthcaches or new ones.

 

I realize that a note was posted in the forum approving some, but posts on a forum don’t take the place of an “official” response. The post also did not address all the earthcaches in the park nor my request to place additional ones.

 

I also would not accept an excuse that the staff is overworked as they had the time to respond to other e-mails sent regarding this issue as shown by previous posts.

 

As a side note, Carpenteria State Beach denied a placement for cultural/erosion control, but the adjoining City Park approved it. Mugu State Park approved 2 (a and b). Mugu also has many traditional ones as well.

 

Uh, never mind!!

Edited February 20, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+TrailGators]

TC, I found a new avatar for you.

It even has it's shirt off...

[+FlagMan]

too bad they don't have an "Ignore" button for the forums...

[+TrailGators]

too bad they don't have an "Ignore" button for the forums...

Actually they do. Click on "My Controls" on the top right. Then click on "Manage Ignored Users" towards the bottom of the left side. I think it's time to use it again.... Edited February 20, 2008 by TrailGators

[+FlagMan]

too bad they don't have an "Ignore" button for the forums...

Actually they do. Click on "My Controls" on the top right. Then click on "Manage Ignored Users" towards the bottom of the left side. I think it's time to use it again....

Thanks for that!

[vagabond]

I used the ignore button months ago

Edited February 21, 2008 by vagabond

[+dhsundance]

too bad they don't have an "Ignore" button for the forums...

Actually they do. Click on "My Controls" on the top right. Then click on "Manage Ignored Users" towards the bottom of the left side. I think it's time to use it again....

 

Thanks for the info- I just exercised my option to ignore some morons who have invaded our local discussions. Now I only wish that I could eliminate that 'hot' avatar from showing up.