Ethics of handing out hints

[+keatingclan]

I've gotten a couple of these e-mails recently.

 

This is [insert name] and I went with my brother and two of his boys, my wife, and daughter to look for the cache, [insert cache name] and could not find it. Could you tell me where it was. I think I know where it was after I left town. I was just wondering if I was correct.

 

Is it OK to answer something like this, or should such questions be referred to the cache owner? It seems like a harmless question, but who am I to give away another's secret?

[+flask]

often someone will write me and ask if i mind if they give someone a hint.

 

i appreciate this courtesy. sometimes i'm not well-fitted to give the hint myself.

 

and sometimes i don't want hints given.

 

but here's the thing: some people when told "no" will just keep asking around until they hear "yes".

[+anakerose]

I've only had 1 person give me a hint for a cache. Generally they ask me where I thought it was, then tell me if I'm on the right track or to go in a different direction. Personally I think people give away too much when they post their logs. I found a cache around Penticton BC once by just reading the hints...I didn't even need the GPS.

[+BlueDeuce]

For ultra-new cachers I'll offer some caching tips.

 

Not so new, refer to owner.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Personally, I like to use any information I can get my hands on when I'm geocaching, except when I'm in a hurry and just want to get out the door. I'll take encrypted hints, logs and word-of-mouth right up front. I don't really get a kick out of denying myself information just to make things more difficult. If someone asks me for a hint, I'll give it. If that takes the fun out of it for them, then they shouldn't have asked.

[+TrailGators]

Personally, I like to use any information I can get my hands on when I'm geocaching, except when I'm in a hurry and just want to get out the door. I'll take encrypted hints, logs and word-of-mouth right up front. I don't really get a kick out of denying myself information just to make things more difficult. If someone asks me for a hint, I'll give it. If that takes the fun out of it for them, then they shouldn't have asked.

I agree with the one exception that if the owner asks that people not give out hints. This applies to puzzle caches mostly. I really don't like people giving out hints on my puzzles until at least a few months have gone by.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Personally, I like to use any information I can get my hands on when I'm geocaching, except when I'm in a hurry and just want to get out the door. I'll take encrypted hints, logs and word-of-mouth right up front. I don't really get a kick out of denying myself information just to make things more difficult. If someone asks me for a hint, I'll give it. If that takes the fun out of it for them, then they shouldn't have asked.

I agree with the one exception that if the owner asks that people not give out hints. This applies to puzzle caches mostly. I really don't like people giving out hints on my puzzles until at least a few months have gone by.

 

Well...yes, puzzle caches would be the exception, except that I generally don't do those, so it didn't really cross my mind at the time.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

No, I take that back. I did help someone with a multi that was basically a puzzle cache in nature. It had a little flaw in its design that was throwing people off. You could only get it right if you made a mistake...or what certainly looked like one.

 

Eh...I don't care. I figure if people get to the point where they're asking for help, then they're probably not going to get it otherwise. A cache not found is a cache not enjoyed.

 

Someone's going to flame me for this, but I don't care. It's just too hot today for me to care. Flame me tomorrow.

[+TrailGators]

No, I take that back. I did help someone with a multi that was basically a puzzle cache in nature. It had a little flaw in its design that was throwing people off. You could only get it right if you made a mistake...or what certainly looked like one.

 

Eh...I don't care. I figure if people get to the point where they're asking for help, then they're probably not going to get it otherwise. A cache not found is a cache not enjoyed.

 

Someone's going to flame me for this, but I don't care. It's just too hot today for me to care. Flame me tomorrow.

I think everyone should "try." I don't like giving out hints like candy. I'll typically ask someone what they done so far/where they've looked. If it sounds like they haven't a darn thing I won't give them much.

[+wildchld97]

No, I take that back. I did help someone with a multi that was basically a puzzle cache in nature. It had a little flaw in its design that was throwing people off. You could only get it right if you made a mistake...or what certainly looked like one.

 

Eh...I don't care. I figure if people get to the point where they're asking for help, then they're probably not going to get it otherwise. A cache not found is a cache not enjoyed.

 

Someone's going to flame me for this, but I don't care. It's just too hot today for me to care. Flame me tomorrow.

I think everyone should "try." I don't like giving out hints like candy. I'll typically ask someone what they done so far/where they've looked. If it sounds like they haven't a darn thing I won't give them much.

 

No flames here. I just wanted to mention that a geocacher in our area had a pretty darn good cache hidden and I have to honestly say that it *wouldn't* have been found by any average person. However, some "well meaning" person (I guess) who hung around the area kept pointing out where it was. Thankfully I had my hand on it before this person came running up to confirm my find, so I didn't feel too cheated. I can understand how others who don't want clues or hints would feel like they didn't earn the find though.

 

If someone has a problem with the coordinates for my puzzle cache, I'll be happy to confirm them if they ask. When someone mentioned that they couldn't find the second stage and questioned if it was missing..I gave them a nudge. Other than my *own* caches..I'll only give a vague hint if the owner hasn't been asked first. Some people work really hard at making a cache a challenge and I have to respect that.

[Neos2]

I've gotten a couple of these e-mails recently.

 

This is [insert name] and I went with my brother and two of his boys, my wife, and daughter to look for the cache, [insert cache name] and could not find it. Could you tell me where it was. I think I know where it was after I left town. I was just wondering if I was correct.

 

Is it OK to answer something like this, or should such questions be referred to the cache owner? It seems like a harmless question, but who am I to give away another's secret?

If it's someone that was just traveling though and won't be back, they may just want to know for curiousity's sake. They should direct their query to the cache owner, though. Sometimes if the cache owner doesn't respond after a reasonable period of time, I've had people eamil me and ask where the cache was supposed to be. I think they just want to know that it was there and they really did overlook it to get closure on the cache.

[+Renegade Knight]

Depends on the cache and the person asking. Then I use my own judgment.

[+superhoser]

After the FTF I don't mind giving up my caches, puzzle or not If I am asked I gladly give anybody how my puzzle works and how/ where I hid it. I want people to find them, what fun is it to see people get frustrated.

[CoyoteRed]

I know some folks really don't like for hints to be given out on their caches. "It's meant to be hard! Not everyone is going to be able to figure it out."

 

I pretty much agree with him. Just like not everyone is going to be able to hike the 20 miles into the woods to grab that cache, much less do some SCUBA, rock climbing, kayaking, etc., not everyone is going to be able to figure out the puzzle or riddle that hides the coordinates. Why should the mental challenge be any different than a physical one?

 

I don't get the idea of "my cache was meant to be found" as justification of handing out hints. If it was going to be that easy why hide it behind a puzzle or create the cool camo?

 

I seldom give out hints to other folks caches and then it's as obtuse as possible. Even with ours I try to only give nudges.

[+SeventhSon]

Why should the mental challenge be any different than a physical one?

 

Well put. Giving hints for a puzzle cache to someone who isn't good at puzzles is like bringing a long hike cache closer to the parking lot for someone who isn't good at hiking. Caches are meant to be earned.

[+briansnat]

I think it should be up to the owner if he wants to give hints. He's the one who went through the trouble of developing that difficult puzzle or making that uniquely camoed container.

 

I recall two locals joining me while I was searching for a cache in another state. It was a tough one that had skunked me the previous day and I was already there for a hour when they arrived. After about 10 minutes they were on the cell phone calling other locals trying to find someone who could tell them where it was.

 

I thought that was really cheesy.

[+simpjkee]

but here's the thing: some people when told "no" will just keep asking around until they hear "yes".

 

get over it

[+CrkrJim]

I agree with the comments regarding the experience of the seeker. For a newbie, it can be like the old workplace catch 22. Sorry kid, can't hire you, come back when you get more experience......so how do you get the experience if no one will hire you without experience!

 

I think the key here is that it is a "hint" not a giveaway. This would apply to "standard" caches. Puzzle caches, caches purposely at high difficulty etc shouldn't be attempted by newbies unless they're ready to face not finding them most of the time (got to get their own experience on those).

 

Personally, I hate to ask for hints and haven't so far but I'm extra stubborn. Other newbies need a "hint" to get that experience.....even more so if their area doesn't have a ton of caches to get experience on their own.

 

Perhaps a subset of the cool caches hide thread in the getting started would be good to help learn what to expect.

 

Jim

[+simpjkee]

i would only give a hint if it was a cache i placed. and even then i doubt i would hand out hints.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I've gotten a couple of these e-mails recently.

 

This is [insert name] and I went with my brother and two of his boys, my wife, and daughter to look for the cache, [insert cache name] and could not find it. Could you tell me where it was. I think I know where it was after I left town. I was just wondering if I was correct.

 

Is it OK to answer something like this, or should such questions be referred to the cache owner? It seems like a harmless question, but who am I to give away another's secret?

 

As a cache owner, I really appreciate when other cachers will differ to me first when they are requested over email. Afterall, the cache owner is the one who went through the time and expense to put the cache out and it's only fitting that he or she is the one who should dole out the hints. Of course, there's circumstances when this is impossible but I just appreciate when some honors the work I've done in this way.

 

Someday we'll get The Donald out caching and he can write "The Art of The Hint." Because a hint can be an art form when it's delivered correctly. A logical question before saying anything is "what do you know already" or "how good of a hint do you want" There's nothing worse than a hint with so much information it is a spoiler.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I'm never going to get to 20,000 posts at the rate I am going... forgive me, this is a numbers post

Edited June 19, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[+JamGuys]

Depends on the cache and the person asking. Then I use my own judgment.

 

That just about sums it up for me.

 

I've been asked for hints on both my puzzle caches and a few that are not my own (a couple of which I was the FTF) and, although in most cases I DID give what I thought were fairly decent hints (usually prefaced by "I don't think so-and-so cache owner would mind" for the ones that were not my own), the caches have all remained unfound (is that a word?) by the respective geoaskers (that's my word!) so I'm guessing I really wasn't that helpful after all.

Edited June 19, 2007 by JamGuys

[Blue_Stone]

 

Someday we'll get The Donald out caching and he can write "The Art of The Hint." Because a hint can be an art form when it's delivered correctly. A logical question before saying anything is "what do you know already" or "how good of a hint do you want" There's nothing worse than a hint with so much information it is a spoiler.

 

WELL said!

I get crap from fellow cachers because my hints are "not really" hints, and I'm stingy with them. Supposedly I have this evil smirk on my face when I know where a cache is, and those with me havent found it yet.

 

The way I see it, caches have a difficulty rating for a reason.

Giving out hints in such a way that they are spoilers, is about the same as finding a well camoed difficulty 3 or 4 cache, and rehiding it so it becomes a difficulty 1 or 2. The owner obviously wanted it to be difficult to find.

 

Hints, if given, should be progressive steps (what I call "nudges") to finding a cache...Not such an obvious amount of info that it practically tells the finder where it is.

The higher the difficulty rating, (or if I think it is diffuclt), I will stretch out the hint giving, starting with more obscure hints.

 

I also usually give hints ONLY when I am on the hunt with someone, and only if its become a tedious search for the person (ie thick nasty brush where the cache is hidden), or if we are pressed for time.

[+Moore9KSUcats]

There are three devious hides nearby. They have been notoriously difficult for even experienced geocachers to find. One is hidden in a crack in a 15 ft cliff above a path. Many people search for the caches, and don't find them, so there are probably more DNF logs than found logs.. and that is only by the people that log their DNF's.

 

The only hint the cache placer gave was "You might need to move a few rocks". When using the original coordinates, the arrow consistently points about 40 feet down the hill, toward the river, away from the cliff (and directly in the area of some fragile travertine terraces). She also does not respond to a string of DNF's with a reply that she checked, and that they are still there.

 

Directly below the path are some old rock walls. As we also continued to search for the cache (it took us probably 5 trips to find the cache), we saw that rocks in the walls were getting moved. Finally, I managed to spot the crack, moved a couple of small stones jammed in the crack on the cliff face, and found the 2 inch long container.

 

We did get better coordinates, but the cache owner did not update the coordinates. Others have also given better coordinates.

 

I have given vague hints like "do not search between the path and the river", or "the cache is not below the path". Others mentioned that you do not have to step on any fragile vegetation to find the cache. Unfortunately, those hints are buried down in the early logs at this point.

 

I don't know the cache placer, but felt it was my obligation to help protect the area by guiding people to a closer approximation toward the cache. It seems that the cache owner delights in totally stumping the caching community, rather than delighting in when people do find her caches. (These are my observations, and may be totally wrong.)

[+keatingclan]

I'm never going to get to 20,000 posts at the rate I am going... forgive me, this is a numbers post

 

I'm displaying my stupidity here, but is there a prize for 20,000 posts or if this a joke I don't understand?

 

It seems like the only think 20,000 posts would prove is that you've got a lot of free time.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I'm never going to get to 20,000 posts at the rate I am going... forgive me, this is a numbers post

 

I'm displaying my stupidity here, but is there a prize for 20,000 posts or if this a joke I don't understand?

 

It seems like the only think 20,000 posts would prove is that you've got a lot of free time.

 

Numbers are only important to those that have them, so I'm the wrong person to ask. The reality is that since there's no way to delete a double post in this forum, I was just taking the opportunity to be silly.

[+Team GeoBlast]

There are three devious hides nearby. They have been notoriously difficult for even experienced geocachers to find. One is hidden in a crack in a 15 ft cliff above a path. Many people search for the caches, and don't find them, so there are probably more DNF logs than found logs.. and that is only by the people that log their DNF's.

 

The only hint the cache placer gave was "You might need to move a few rocks". When using the original coordinates, the arrow consistently points about 40 feet down the hill, toward the river, away from the cliff (and directly in the area of some fragile travertine terraces). She also does not respond to a string of DNF's with a reply that she checked, and that they are still there.

 

Directly below the path are some old rock walls. As we also continued to search for the cache (it took us probably 5 trips to find the cache), we saw that rocks in the walls were getting moved. Finally, I managed to spot the crack, moved a couple of small stones jammed in the crack on the cliff face, and found the 2 inch long container.

 

We did get better coordinates, but the cache owner did not update the coordinates. Others have also given better coordinates.

 

I have given vague hints like "do not search between the path and the river", or "the cache is not below the path". Others mentioned that you do not have to step on any fragile vegetation to find the cache. Unfortunately, those hints are buried down in the early logs at this point.

 

I don't know the cache placer, but felt it was my obligation to help protect the area by guiding people to a closer approximation toward the cache. It seems that the cache owner delights in totally stumping the caching community, rather than delighting in when people do find her caches. (These are my observations, and may be totally wrong.)

 

If you have never spoken to this person, this is a lot of ESP you are using to come to these conclusions. I think would try, just because this not only doesn't sound like fun but it could put the seeker in danger. You can post better coords in your log and with that many DNFs people will more than likey pay attention to them.

[+Thrak]

There's a cache near here that I keep meaning to go after. Almost nobody has found it without help. The cache page says that, if you want a hint, you need to first try and find the cache and then log your DNF. I know that some folks have gotten help from previous finders but I've told them I don't want any help. I'd rather go look for it myself without a hint. I'm hoping I can find it that way and feel the sense of accomplishment from finding it on my own where other's have failed. If I DNF it a couple of times then I'll accept a hint from the cache owner.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

There's an extensive phone-a-friend network here, so you can bet folks will get the hints they're looking for.

 

I personally don't use it, just because I don't want to intrude on people over a cache, but isn't that what all these phone-a-friend groups are for- to call and get the hints?

[+StarBrand]

There was a local cacher that called me on about 30 of my hides. I never gave him anymore then a gentle nudge. He still finds an occasional cache but doesn't vcall me anymore. He said I never helped him much. I think he just didn't want to search very hard (or look bad in front of friends that were with him.

 

In the past I gave out hints freely. These days, I give very little out and when I do it is not much more than a nudge in a new direction. Some folks just get stuck in thier thinking. I really try to respect the owner and encourage folks to go that route.

 

I have gotten some hints after asking the owner but then only after a fruitless DNF or 3. I don't ask anybody else these days.

[+FireRef]

I've been on both ends of this. As a seeker, I often ask for hints if for some reason I can't find it - sometimes from the owner, sometimes from people who found it last. Sometimes I get responses, sometimes I don't, sometimes I get hints, sometimes I find out that it's missing or disabled or something and that was never noted on the website.

 

As a hider, I'm almost always willing to give out help for most of my caches. I did do one series which was intended to be very difficult, and stated clearly on the cache page that I wasn't going to give any help. I had 1-2 requests, to which I referred them back to the cache page and my lack of willingness to give them. Once someone found the cache, the requests stopped coming, because I think the original questions for hints were based on not knowing if they were even on the right track or if it was solveable.

 

I guess, again, this comes down to "to each his own" IMHO. I don't see a reason, unless the owner doesn't really want hints given, not to give them if you are asked. I do know of one cache I spent an hour hunting for with 4 other people, and was quite happy when I found it, but then again, a hint wouldn't have changed that much for me.

[+angevine]

It's up to the cache hider how many hints or clues he or she wants to give out. What irritates me is when other cachers take it upon themselves to give out hints for someone else's cache. Happens all the time, and it's one of the things I find it difficult to be Zen about ...

 

Jeannette

[+keatingclan]

I'm never going to get to 20,000 posts at the rate I am going... forgive me, this is a numbers post

 

I'm displaying my stupidity here, but is there a prize for 20,000 posts or if this a joke I don't understand?

 

It seems like the only think 20,000 posts would prove is that you've got a lot of free time.

 

Numbers are only important to those that have them, so I'm the wrong person to ask. The reality is that since there's no way to delete a double post in this forum, I was just taking the opportunity to be silly.

 

Got it, thanks. Sometimes being a newb on the board leaves me confused!

[+sbell111]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

[+briansnat]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

 

Some cache owners put a lot of work into making challenging caches, because some geocachers enjoy them. If people are giving out the answers, then the owner basically wasted his time.

[+JamGuys]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

Interesting point but I don't think that's totally accurate. Yes, I'll admit that I am pleased to some degree when searchers initially have difficulty with one of my newly published puzzle caches but that's all in good fun and usually only when the race for FTF honors is on! However, I DO experience a greater sense of fulfillment when someone solves my puzzle cache either the way I meant it to be solved or by using some other unique methodology. If I feel that the finder enjoyed the challenge and is experiencing a similar sense of accomplishment (as might be mentioned in their log or personal e-mail), well, that just about makes my day! On the other hand, if I know that the finder asked someone else for help (sometimes that's mentioned in the log too), I don't begrudge him or her the find but I don't feel the same way either. Make sense, anyone?

Edited June 19, 2007 by JamGuys

[+Team GeoBlast]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

 

I think some hiders place caches in hopes of interacting with the seekers or at least being the one to size how much help is needed and giving it out. I think the less effort you put into placing a cache the less it will probably matter to you. For me personally, I want to be involved in the interaction because I glean a lot of useful information for future hides when people talk to me about how they approached my caches

[+Sileny Jizda]

I'll give a hint to a low cache finder if they ask about one of mine. If it's someone else's cache though it's not my place to do so.

[+Harry Dolphin]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

 

I have a few mystery caches that I consider 'challenging'. And they are meant to be challenging. Eleven finds in a year. Four cachers solved the puzzle. The others got 'hints', but not from me. Another where two of the finders actually managed to 'strong-arm' it. More's the power to them!

But OPs question seems more isolated. Someone travelling through the area on vacation who really wanted to know! I've done that. But I have asked the cache owner. "Okay, we searched high and low for XXXXX cache. (We did log our DNF.)" (It was hanging off the side on fishing line!)

No comments on the time I logged a DNF, and got e-mail with photos from someone other than the cache owner. That did spoil the fun.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

"Someone's going to flame me for this, but I don't care. It's just too hot today for me to care. Flame me tomorrow."

 

I waited a day.

 

I would be bothered if someone offered hints on my caches. I have taken the steps to include a set of expectations for those who seek my caches where I explicitly state I expect folks will not do this.

 

Put me firmly in CR's camp where I believe that not all caches are going to be found by all cachers.

 

The above quote was sent to me as an email. I'm not sure why it was not posted on the board, as it was a valid point, but I'll assume the person was shy, so I left the person's name out.

 

Perhaps this is the correct way to look at it, letting everyone approach a cache with the same advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I never felt inclined to refuse a hint, because I have no more or less fun geocaching if the game is easier or harder for someone else. If I can't find a cache, I might try again until I get sick of it and ignore it, but I don't think I've ever asked for a hint. No single cache has driven me to that point. I don't absolutely have to have it.

 

I guess I'll have to rethink it. Incidentally, I figure, if I can find a cache, then anyone can find it, so I'm not usually the one that others come to for help, anyway.

[+TrailGators]

No single cache has driven me to that point. I don't absolutely have to have it.

This is a good point because a lot of people do have to have it because they are trying to clear out an area. I have been guilty of this myself in the past (not anymore). You can't clear out an area if a tough cache is in the middle of it. So the bottomline is that people will get hints and that's the way it is. There is one heck of a grapevine out there.

[+sbell111]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

Some cache owners put a lot of work into making challenging caches, because some geocachers enjoy them. If people are giving out the answers, then the owner basically wasted his time.

Untrue. People who find it without hints experience the exact experience teh owner is going for. People who find it with hints only rob themselves of this experience. The cache owner is unaffected.

 

When it comes right down to it, receiving hints for the cache is no different than finding it with a puzzle-solving friend. Either way, the cache owner is not responsible for how you obtained the solution or affected by your actions.

[+briansnat]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

Some cache owners put a lot of work into making challenging caches, because some geocachers enjoy them. If people are giving out the answers, then the owner basically wasted his time.

Untrue. People who find it without hints experience the exact experience teh owner is going for. People who find it with hints only rob themselves of this experience. The cache owner is unaffected.

 

When it comes right down to it, receiving hints for the cache is no different than finding it with a puzzle-solving friend. Either way, the cache owner is not responsible for how you obtained the solution or affected by your actions.

 

My conversations with owners of these kinds of cache tell a different story. Many do not like or want hints to be given out. If they say it affects them, then who are you to tell them it doesn't?

Edited June 20, 2007 by briansnat

[+sbell111]

When it comes right down to it, I don't understand how someone getting a hint from a third party affects the owner, at all. The hint may or may not affect the enjoyment of the finder, but it in no way affects that of the hider unless the hider simply 1) likes it when someone doesn't succeed in finding the cache or 2) enjoys the attention attained when people have to beg him for hints.

Some cache owners put a lot of work into making challenging caches, because some geocachers enjoy them. If people are giving out the answers, then the owner basically wasted his time.

Untrue. People who find it without hints experience the exact experience teh owner is going for. People who find it with hints only rob themselves of this experience. The cache owner is unaffected.

 

When it comes right down to it, receiving hints for the cache is no different than finding it with a puzzle-solving friend. Either way, the cache owner is not responsible for how you obtained the solution or affected by your actions.

My conversations with owners of these kinds of cache tell a different story. Many do not like or want hints to be given out. If they say it affects them, then who are you to tell them it doesn't?

In that case, I guess you could reread my initial post that you replied to.

 

Personally, I am not very concerned with people who feel affected by something that doesn't actually affect them.

[+JamGuys]

Untrue. People who find it without hints experience the exact experience teh owner is going for. People who find it with hints only rob themselves of this experience. The cache owner is unaffected.

 

I respectfully disagree. One way or another, a cache owner is ALWAYS affected when someone finds and logs their cache. After all, when you think about it, the underlying reason people put out caches is to give pleasure to those who find them and to vicariously receive pleasure in return when they do. If, as you put it, a finder doesn't obtain the experience that the cache owner is going for then the cache owner is likely to be disappointed and that, in my opinion, counts as being affected.

Edited June 20, 2007 by JamGuys

[+briansnat]

Personally, I am not very concerned with people who feel affected by something that doesn't actually affect them.

 

It's nice to be able to go through life without regard for the feelings of others. I wish I could do that.

[+sbell111]

Untrue. People who find it without hints experience the exact experience teh owner is going for. People who find it with hints only rob themselves of this experience. The cache owner is unaffected.

I respectfully disagree. One way or another, a cache owner is ALWAYS affected when someone finds and logs their cache. After all, when you think about it, the underlying reason people put out caches is to give pleasure to those who find them and to vicariously receive pleasure in return when they do. If, as you put it, a finder doesn't obtain the experience that the cache owner is going for then the cache owner is likely to be disappointed and that, in my opinion, counts as being affected.

So just because the finder enjoyed the cache and said as much in his log isn't enough? Does he really have to experience it exactly as the owner planned for it to be acceptable?

 

Again, what about those that log a puzzle cache at the same time as the puzzle-solver?

Edited June 20, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

Personally, I am not very concerned with people who feel affected by something that doesn't actually affect them.

It's nice to be able to go through life without regard for the feelings of others. I wish I could do that.

Given your 'torch and pitchfork' postings regarding those that play the game differently than you, I find this statement highly ironic.

[+JamGuys]

Does he really have to experience it exactly as the owner planned for it to be acceptable?

Didn't say that at all. All I'm doing is responding to your statement that cache owners are not affected by the experiences of the finder. Maybe this is a philosophical kinda argument but, whether you want to admit it or not, we are all affected to some degree or other by the finder's experience whether it be in a positive, a negative, or a neutral way.

Edited June 20, 2007 by JamGuys

[+sbell111]

Does he really have to experience it exactly as the owner planned for it to be acceptable?

Didn't say that at all. All I'm doing is responding to your statement that cache owners are not affected by the experiences of the finder. Maybe this is a philosophical kinda argument but, whether you want to admit it or not, we are all affected to some degree or other by the finder's experience whether it be in a positive, a negative, or a neutral way.

I get what you're saying and I certainly agree. To me, the question is whether that affect is enough to necessitate a change in behavior.