My GPS noob review of the Garmin 60Cx

[xer0piggy]

I agree with SandyGarrity about starting out with a paper map. I own a 60Cx, but I am still so darned map-oriented that I find auto-routing and voice directions to be a complete waste. Even in the car, just follow along with the map display on your gpsr. When you come to a cross-road, your map will show you that. Just make your turn, and your map shows you that. Continue on your merry way, and the map shows you that.

 

It's kinda like using a calculator without knowing your multiplication tables by heart first. Who should need a calculator for 7x6 ?

 

One rant that zeropiggy left out is the HUGE problem of the 2025 map segment limit. If you use only street map products, this is no biggie since the segments are large. However, with TOPO, you have small segments and lots of them. For TOPO USA West you run into the segment limit at about 375mb.

 

I, and others, will continue to hound Garmin until they fix this, either in firmware or in a new TOPO product that has larger, and fewer, segments.

 

For TOPO mapping the new Delorme PN-20, with their superior topographic maps, looms large. I hope Garmin is taking notice.

 

Could you expand on this? I can't comment on it, because I still haven't brought myself to part with my cash for the program :-)! As I will probably break down sooner or later, it would be nice to know what to expect as an issue.

[GreatCanadian]

I admit, it does take some getting used to the Garmin menu system. However, I have even more trouble with my cellphone menu than GPS menu. If as you say, Garmin advertises it as being easy to use without any land navigation skills, then that is downright irresponsible. You can't rely on electronics. That's why I have a CX and not a CSX. I never go in the woods without a regular magnetic compass. That's what I will trust to get me home if my GPS ceases functioning. I've been using the same compass for 20 years, and it never lets me down. It stays in my pocket when the GPS is working, so I don't normally need it. But it's there if I do. Therefore safe GPS use requires SOME navigation skills.

[+Ellteejak]

The user interfaces of the "cheaper units" like the Garmin I3 that my family purchased recently are much more user friendly. A scroll wheel and push to select, makes a lot more sense than the touch screen in a car. I see this every day in the hospital as we have both a touch screen, and a scroll wheel on patient vital signs monitors.

 

Touch screen gets dirty from people putting dirty fingers on it all the time. Scroll wheel takes longer to work, but gives you time to think about your selection as you are working the selection.

[+Ellteejak]

I admit, it does take some getting used to the Garmin menu system. However, I have even more trouble with my cellphone menu than GPS menu. If as you say, Garmin advertises it as being easy to use without any land navigation skills, then that is downright irresponsible. You can't rely on electronics. That's why I have a CX and not a CSX. I never go in the woods without a regular magnetic compass. That's what I will trust to get me home if my GPS ceases functioning. I've been using the same compass for 20 years, and it never lets me down. It stays in my pocket when the GPS is working, so I don't normally need it. But it's there if I do. Therefore safe GPS use requires SOME navigation skills.

 

If you plan on going cross country (leaving the well worn trail, or if you get confused at trail intersections) then yes always have a compass, and a cell phone (turned off so your battery will not be dead when you need it), and a flashlight, and a whistle, and water bottle. In North america the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, which will get you a very rough direction. In my 30 years of hiking without GPS I have never been more than a mile off, but I always seem to follow well worn trails, so I admit it is not easy to get lost.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Ellteejak

[GreatCanadian]

I live in Eastern Canada in the land of fog, and it quite often isn't easy to see the sunrise or sunset. Hunting on humongous bogs when the fog sets in is a little unsettling. Granted, when I didn't own a GPS, I didn't need a compass VERY OFTEN to get me out, but I did need it a couple of times, and as a very experienced hunter, and having worked with the Forestry department for about 15 years, I do know how to get around in the woods. A compass is essential for the true woodsman who travels ground that doesn't have wellworn trails or any trails at all in many cases. Your hunting (especially rabbit hunting) does not always take you where you intended to go. If your GPS gives out, weather is bad, a compass is essential.

 

Edit: Why did I write that here. It's way off topic!!

Edited April 11, 2007 by GreatCanadian

[+limawhiskey]

I do agree with the OP that the UI is really lacking, especially with the market's enlightenment that tech products ought to facilitate instinctive operation. Here though, you need to have patience and actually learn how to do things that should be intuitive. The geocache page in particular is pretty poor, especially considering how popular the use of Garmin's GPSRs are in geocaching. This 'feature' just feels like a hacked version of the waypoint page, done only as something of an afterthought. And I agree that entry of data via the rocker is woefully inefficient.

 

The manual however, I found to be quite thorough. Some points and concepts could be expanded and explained more clearly but on the whole it is good, as manuals go.

[+limawhiskey]

The manual is useless.

I don't agree with this at all.

It assumes that you understand what a waypoint

"Waypoints are locations or landmarks you record and store in your GPS. They are locations you might want to return to later." (p. 10)

a track

"The Tracks feature creates an electronic bread crumb trail or "track log" on the Map Page as you travel. The track log contains information about points along its path." (p. 26)

and a route are

"Route navigation allows you to create a sequence of intermediate waypoints that lead you to your final destination." (p. 32)

without explaining anything to a complete novice who has no idea

... how to read?

And what the heck is a "proximity waypoint"? No explanation at all.

"Use the Proximity Waypoints Page to define an alarm circle around a stored waypoint location" (p. 15). Hmmm... can I interest you in a

? Edited April 11, 2007 by limawhiskey

[+limawhiskey]

and most importantly, the extra drain from the electronic compass on the batteries.

Just a small comment.

...

On the new "x" series GPS Garmin do use a compass that do draw very little current, and therefore 60CSx and 60Cx have both 18h battery time listed at Garmin.com

Is this really true? Where did you get your information? Do Garmin specify battery life with/without use of the electronic compass? I couldn't find anything on their site. The only reference I can find is in the manual which states, "Extensive use of ... electronic compass significantly reduce battery life."

Personally I have experienced a noticeable increase in battery life when leaving the electronic compass off (only switching if I need a bearing when stationary).

[+Coach88]

I hate to pick sides here but limawhiskey just hit one out of the park!

 

When I got my first GPSr, the basic legend, little over a year ago, I had no previous GPS experience. I knew I wanted one but knew next to nothing about them. Like the OP, I did plenty of reasearch on the internet before deciding what to buy. In fact, only after repeatedly reading about different models being «geocaching ready» did i click on a geocaching link and realized that there was a little «treasure» hidden within 300 metres from my house. Once I viewed the instructional video that came with my bundle, read the manual and played/practiced with my unit did I learn to appreciate and get used to this new hobby. Needless to say when I upgraded to my GPSMap60CX within a year of first getting accustomed to what waypoints, tracks etc... were, a few more outings and reading the manual and I would say that I'm really comfortable with most of the functions of this unit. I'd even classify myself as an advanced user. I live in a small community and word travels fast; I'm considered by many of my friends as the Go To guy in the GPS field. Personnaly I prefer the rocker pad input over the phone keypad as suggested. I hate entering a new contact in my cell phone because I'm always looking for the letters and wich keys to push.

 

Give yourself a little time, practice, visit various forums, ask basic questions and you'll find the interface isn't that bad afterall.

 

Good luck and Happy caching!

[Intrepid Explorer]

It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.

[CenTexDodger]

It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.

 

It can read custom POIs from the card, and it can save the active track to the card. My 60CSx works just fine the way it is, thank you very much, Garmin does not need to "step up" and correct things that aren't broken.

[+ArtieD]

It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.

 

Funny how someone with only this very post to his credit comes in here saying untrue things.

 

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

 

If anyone needs to step up, it isn't Garmin.

 

ETA: Not only is this your very first post, but you have zero finds, zero trackables...zero everything. Yeah...you have a lot of real-world experience.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Arthur & Trillian

[segler999]

xer0piggy asked me to expand on a comment I made. I presume it's about the segment limit.

 

So, I started a new thread, call "Garmin Segment Limit." It is always interesting to read what other people say about this issue.

[+Prime Suspect]

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

 

Not exactly. Writing track data to the card is a one-way process, as far as the unit is concerned. The unit cannot read it back. You can access it with a PC for things like geotagging, but it's not going to get you back to where you parked you car. Only the main memory track data can be used by the GPS.

[+Prime Suspect]

First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!

 

The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.

[+ArtieD]

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

 

Not exactly. Writing track data to the card is a one-way process, as far as the unit is concerned. The unit cannot read it back. You can access it with a PC for things like geotagging, but it's not going to get you back to where you parked you car. Only the main memory track data can be used by the GPS.

 

Oops...my mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

[xer0piggy]

First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!

 

The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.

 

I missed it the same way I miss any "tiny" little "black-colored" emblem placed on a "black-colored" background. Just because not all of us are good at Where's Waldo, and means we immediately see that which is well-camoflaged (especially with older eyes). Like I said though, the on/off button and its placement are not a good or bad thing, just something I didn't obviously see at first.

Edited April 12, 2007 by xer0piggy

[xer0piggy]

It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.

 

Funny how someone with only this very post to his credit comes in here saying untrue things.

 

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

 

If anyone needs to step up, it isn't Garmin.

 

ETA: Not only is this your very first post, but you have zero finds, zero trackables...zero everything. Yeah...you have a lot of real-world experience.

 

Your critical sarcasm coupled with "not" being entirely right in response to this poster does little to show how your immense 428 posts are any better than his 1 post. Rather than rebutt the argument, you attack the poster for his few number of postings.

[+geobc]

It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.

 

Funny how someone with only this very post to his credit comes in here saying untrue things.

Well, he was right on most of his complaints. Although I'd say the shortcoming wasn't exactly "gimmicky."

 

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

True, but you have to create it and upload it in a separate manner from Waypoints, and they are handled differently from Waypoints in the unit, too.

 

It seems like an obvious feature for waypoints, tracks, and routes to be written to and read from the memory card.

 

At the very, very least, they should have added the ability to read/write tracks from/to the memory card. This would make the unit far more useful for generating detailed mapping data.

 

ETA: Not only is this your very first post, but you have zero finds, zero trackables...zero everything. Yeah...you have a lot of real-world experience.

 

That doesn't negate his points.

 

GeoBC

[Intrepid Explorer]

On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.

 

Not exactly. Writing track data to the card is a one-way process, as far as the unit is concerned. The unit cannot read it back. You can access it with a PC for things like geotagging, but it's not going to get you back to where you parked you car. Only the main memory track data can be used by the GPS.

 

Oops...my mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Arthur & Trillian:

 

Actually, I'm an an expert with mapping and GPS with years of solid experience. I came here for the GPS forum. For the record, I'm an explorer, I couldn't care less about geocaching.

 

Lets recap- First, you post and insult me when I point out the obvious shortcomings of the 60CSX. Then you attempt to contradict me by posting fallacious information about the abilities of the 60CSX to read its card. You claim your information is derived from your own personal experience. Your statements are obviously not true, as Prime Suspect has pointed out.

 

Thus your comment to me about 'real-world experience' seem embarassingly hypocritcal. Now having said this, I feel an apology from you is in order for your poorly crafted post and for misrepresenting your experience with the 60CSX to the forum.

 

To the forum-

Back on topic. Yes, The Explorist XL can read all data from its card, which is an extremely helpful feature because it removes limits on the number of tracks, route and waypoints the user can bring into the field with him/herself. However, there are tradeoffs. The Explorist XL cannot change the color of its tracks even though it has a color display. You can have the Explorist XL display the track in any color you want, as long as you choose black. Magellan's Mapsend software is awful compared to Garmin's Mapsource Topo because it lacks several of the important tools that Garmin provides in their program. I've installed and examined Mapsend and I would never use that program, myself. Magellan's new "3-D" software is awful also, as it also lacks important tools and it appears to have removed many of the dirt roads in the Western US. They simply no longer appear on the screen.

 

Which takes us back to Mapsource. Mapsource TOPO is the best GPS vector product at present, and with their track editing tools, my favorite of all the GPS vector softwares at present. Thus I put up with the Garmin CSX series' inability to read their cards, which, as I have said, is in my opinion gimmicky, because the 76CSX for example, already can hold 120 something mg's of maps, which is a heck of a lot of maps. We needed more maps like a hole in the head. What we need is data reading expansion.

 

That's the tradeoff at present. I do hope Garmin steps up and fixes this, then we'll have the best of both worlds.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Intrepid Explorer

[+F1sh]

I think that xer0piggy's posts have been a real breath of fresh air. I am as brand loyal as the next guy, (Honda builds the best motorcycles ) but lets not make the mistake of assuming that just because GPS units are this way, means that they should be this way.

I think that the changes 0p has suggested are bang on. The techno-geeks who have been doing this ever since gpsr's first became available to civilians are probably really comfortable with the current state of affairs - but the truth of the matter is, things are a lot more complicated than they need to be. To anyone who wants to argue and say 'no, it's really easy, you just don't get it', I would direct you to read through a few hundred pages right here in these forums. Look at all the 'how do I make this work' questions. Even worse, look at the answers - I have totally given up on mapping right now because I think it is absurd that I would have to run the files through two or three different programs - after obtaining the correct version of the correct map software, just to get them to work on my receiver. The very fact that so many different people are having difficulty proves that there is a problem. And remember that the people who are posting here are the types who do the research and the reading necessary to find and search an online forum - consider how many others out there open up the product, read the manual, then just say 'screw it'.

A big AMEN to the point about offering map details al-la-carte. And remember, that doesn't mean you would have to stop offering the complete packages either! - if there are people who feel more secure having the whole country on disk - fine, sell them the expensive programs. But for each of them, you will have 10 people like me you would buy the 50 miles around my house, and the 50 miles around grandma's house, and maybe purchase another chunk when planning a vacation somewhere. The first company to heed 0p's suggestion will tap a large share of the market that is currently not interested in shelling out that much money for map data that they would never use anyways... so why not make some more money from the casual cachers out there? You've already gone through the work and expense of making the maps! What would you have to lose????

I know that some people are satisfied with a complicated process because they believe that orienteering shouldn't be easy. For me though, I am a father of three, the oldest only 5. When we look for a cache, our Honda Civic is usually still visible from the cache site . I am not the mountain climber, spelunking, SUV-mountain dew-advertisement type - and if I was, I doubt I would be out looking for buried mctoys anyways. This hobby has some great potential to be an awesome way to get families off of the couch and outside being active. If gpsr's are this complicated to use, then it is a problem with how the product is built, not with how the user is built.

The first thing Garmin should do is hire 0p on contact to bring some fresh ideas to the whole industry .

JMO

 

- Chad

[CenTexDodger]

Thus I put up with the Garmin CSX series' inability to read their cards, which, as I have said, is in my opinion gimmicky, because the 76CSX for example, already can hold 120 something mg's of maps, which is a heck of a lot of maps. We needed more maps like a hole in the head.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with this point. The main reason I upgraded to the 60CSx was so I could put the entire US CN maps on and not have to mess with it all the time. We travel all over, so we were always putting different maps on it. If I had a dedicated car unit, I would feel differently, but my 60 is my do-all, and for me it does-all.

[+Coach88]

Don't get me wrong, I too love the a-la-carte idea but I'm not sure that turning a GPSr to a cell phone is exactly a fresh idea.

[Intrepid Explorer]

Thus I put up with the Garmin CSX series' inability to read their cards, which, as I have said, is in my opinion gimmicky, because the 76CSX for example, already can hold 120 something mg's of maps, which is a heck of a lot of maps. We needed more maps like a hole in the head.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with this point. The main reason I upgraded to the 60CSx was so I could put the entire US CN maps on and not have to mess with it all the time. We travel all over, so we were always putting different maps on it. If I had a dedicated car unit, I would feel differently, but my 60 is my do-all, and for me it does-all.

 

 

I did not say that the ability to put all those maps on the card is gimmicky. I said it is gimmicky that the unit cannot read other data from the card. Why not both maps and other data, instead of excluding three of the four functions of the unit. It is ridiculous that the unit cannot read the card. Someone had to say it.

[+hogrod]

Thus I put up with the Garmin CSX series' inability to read their cards, which, as I have said, is in my opinion gimmicky, because the 76CSX for example, already can hold 120 something mg's of maps, which is a heck of a lot of maps. We needed more maps like a hole in the head.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with this point. The main reason I upgraded to the 60CSx was so I could put the entire US CN maps on and not have to mess with it all the time. We travel all over, so we were always putting different maps on it. If I had a dedicated car unit, I would feel differently, but my 60 is my do-all, and for me it does-all.

 

 

I did not say that the ability to put all those maps on the card is gimmicky. I said it is gimmicky that the unit cannot read other data from the card. Why not both maps and other data, instead of excluding three of the four functions of the unit. It is ridiculous that the unit cannot read the card. Someone had to say it.

 

Am I the only one here that owns a 60cx and has also used a magellan? I agree with Intrepid Explorer garmin is totally missing out on data card usage.... yes I can use POI loader, yes I can save tracks to the card, But garmins data card use is nothing compared to an explorist 400,500,600 or XL. I hope someday they update the 60cx firmware to take full advantage of these features, but ain't going to get my hopes up.

I am very happy with my 60cx and wouldn't trade it for any magellan explorist, no matter if I think there data card ability is far superior.

Edited April 13, 2007 by hogrod

[xer0piggy]

Don't get me wrong, I too love the a-la-carte idea but I'm not sure that turning a GPSr to a cell phone is exactly a fresh idea.

 

Why not? What would be the matter with a GPS that has; large, dual 262,000 color screens, 3+ day battery life, thick as a pencil, UI that actually works halfway intuitively, expandable memory with actual read/write file management, bluetooth and InfraRed PC connectivity, alphanumeric keyboard with positive tactile feedback, and voice activation/speech capability?

 

I personally think that anyone who thinks the GPS should "not" be like this is the backwards thinker. The thing is about the GPS industry, is that they are assbackward stupid for not following form facter and human interface designs "that have already been proven". Sure it doesn't have to be exact, but for instance; the 60 and 76 series would be a LOT handier with a flipfold clamshell design where they could have put a lot more buttons on the flip and a larger screen on the other. It doesn't have to be as small as a cell phone (in fact you might not want it to be), but the technology and design is ALREADY DONE!

 

As long as the hardware performs similarly, who wouldn't take a Large RAZR cell phone format GPS as long as it worked as well, and had the same water-resistance/durability. The only issue, I'd have would be proprietary batteries, but proprietary batteries are much more bearable when they last 3+ days. Hell, go ahead and add the camera and MP3 player while your at it. Both of those features can be handy too.

 

With cell phones coming out that "do" have the built-in GPS abilities, Garmin and other GPS companies, need to take advantage of their GPS technical prowess, before what is still a gimmick on cell phones, becomes as good as what Garmin keeps putting out. No cell phones won't be as good GPS units as specialized Garmin type for a while, but that won't be that way forever (which means very soon in the fast evolving cell-phone industry). These new GPS Cell phones, besides being GPS capable, will have Internet capability. Free detailed maps (barring connectivity costs of course) from Google, mapquest, etc and others downloaded instantly to a GPS cell phone is going to be HUGE competition, that Garmin will LOSE in the consumer market if they dont get their heads out of their a**. "Or" they will pull out of the handheld consumer market when these multifunction cell phones start taking off. Unfortunately this is more likely.

 

Now some might consider that these handhelds by Garmin and Magellan, etc are more "ruggedized" and "specialized" than a cell phone will ever be. Ruggedization is easy once the hardware is designed. For a "poor" example, stick a RAZR in a waterproof padded plastic box the size of the 60 or 76 series. The RAZR in the padded box will take a wall throwing better and be just as water resistant. The only thing differentiating "ruggedization with electronic devices is the housing and "maybe" a tiny bit on the electronic layout engineering. Basically, nothing hard to do by anyone.

 

In terms of specialized, once the GPS hardware is made, "specialization" consists of software to hardware interface. For instance waypoints, geocaches, tracking, MAPS!, etc are ALL SOFTWARE FUNCTIONS! Not hardware! Garmin might be a leader in the GPS market, but the consumer market will soon eat them up and spit them out if they don't get with the program.

[xer0piggy]

I know that some people are satisfied with a complicated process because they believe that orienteering shouldn't be easy. For me though, I am a father of three, the oldest only 5. When we look for a cache, our Honda Civic is usually still visible from the cache site . I am not the mountain climber, spelunking, SUV-mountain dew-advertisement type - and if I was, I doubt I would be out looking for buried mctoys anyways. This hobby has some great potential to be an awesome way to get families off of the couch and outside being active. If gpsr's are this complicated to use, then it is a problem with how the product is built, not with how the user is built.

The first thing Garmin should do is hire 0p on contact to bring some fresh ideas to the whole industry .

JMO

 

- Chad

 

The only two "growth" markets I see right now (obviously correct me if Im wrong) for the GPS are automobiles GPS's, where there is TONS of competition, and geocaching, which is learned from word-of-mouth or the Internet (which is pretty much the same as word-of-mouth). People who "need" GPSs probably already "have" GPSs, whether they be hunters, boaters, surveyors, etc. People who would "like" GPS without a real need are the auto people, and the people interested in taking up geocaching (as it is pretty difficult without one) as a hobby/sport.

 

Right now there appears to be NO competition in the geocaching side unlke the automobile-side. Like I mentioned in a previous post, why hasn't one of the big GPS names stuck that big-a** kiosk display in Walmart/Best Buy/Office depot, etc PUSHING this as a family-oriented hobby/sport and CREATING market share from thin air? They do have their displays for their automobile products, but then so does every GPS company that they have to compete their products against.

 

I don't see any of the actually "competing" for geocachers. For new geocachers, all they need do is modify a few of the low/mid-end models and make it explicitly STUPID-EASY for geocaching with secondary functionality as a road map device? For the experienced geocachers, just tailor existing products with software better suited to the sport. Had I seen a model like this in a store kiosk when I first got interested in trying, guess what I probably would have bought? Impulse and convenience buying sells a LOT of stuff. You won't get impulse purchases if there is no interest and there is no interest without advertising.

 

In fact, the whole GPS market needs to get behind this kind of "new use" thinking as their market, except for the couple of areas I discussed, seem to be pretty stagnant.

 

And yes, Garmin should hire me :-)!

[xer0piggy]

So kinda Day3:

 

I've had the unit for 6 days actually, but haven't had any time to mess with it, other than watch it plot out my position as I drove around. BTW: My kids (4 and 5) love it when I program in (using the detestable data entry method!) my destination so they can hold onto it, watch the map, and shout directions (even though I already know how to get there). I guess I can thank Garmin for keeping my kids occupied while I drive!Anyways... during this week I got a free copy of Microsoft's Streets and Trips V7. Just because I'm a computer nerd, I had to get my GPS working with it..

 

And so my new trials and tribulations:

 

Apparently MS Streets and Trips only works with MNEA data outputted to a serial com port if it is not a particular GPS product. I figured out how to output MNEA from the 60Cx unit easily enough, but WTF serial input?? Maybe the other person was right, I would have to use the stupid big ol' AMP-4 bayonete type serial port :-(!

 

No way in hell am I giving up this easily! I've created virtual com ports and and done port redirects since Apple II days. There has to be a way to redirect a USB to a virtual serial port without additional hardware (so I thought). Well there are many program to create virtual serial ports, but none that will redirect to/from USB without additional hardware. And of the ones that do, they cost a lot of cashola that I didn't want to spend. Other methods involved more programming than I want to do for this thing! So maybe Garmin has one. I peruse over to the Garmin website, and type in their search function: virtual serial ports, USB redirect, Streets and Trips, etc. Nothing!. A perusal of the software/utilities/drivers that Garmin lists as available/compatible to the 60Cx comes up with a big zero. Damnit, I'm stumped now. Better check the forums.

 

Low and Behold, there is topic concerning MS Streets and Trips right there (although for a different brand unit). In it a poster (thx cacheoholic!) mention's using Garmin's "spaner" to connect his 60CSx to the PC with the USB cable to make it work. So I go back to Garmin's website and type in a search for "spaner" using their search function. No luck! Maybe he typo'd it cause "spaner" looks odd. I try "spanner" with 2 n's and still NOTHING!. OK, it's Google time. God bless those IPO millionaires! Their software actually works. Even Garmin's website software is crap. A "google" search of "Garmin Spanner" comes up with a link straight to the Spanner download!!! A Garmin website search of "spanner" came up with NOTHING. THis does not reflect highly of Garmin's programming expertise. Here is the "spanner" program if you haven't got it: http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=1627

 

I install it and voila! Presto magnifico, a USB to virtual com port redirect. Of course, Garmin can't simply call it or even describe it as such (even though that's what it is). They have to call it "Spanner" as if that means a dadgum thing! In addition, according to the description for it: Spanner allows you to use your GPS 18 USB...yada, yade. WTF is a GPS 18? I don't know and the manual doesn't say. According to the website, its a GPS receiver only. The software/driver sure wasn't linked to the 60Cx in any form or manner. And yet amazingly, it works (as it should being nothing more than a USB-serial redirect).

 

So now MS Streets and Trips works great with the 60Cx using the USB hookup just fine. I didn't have to use the stupid serial port!! Hahaha! (So it's still a big ugly useless hole!) No dadgum thanks to Garmin's incompetancy in their website search engine, manual, or even web links for the unit. Now could I have called and gotten an answer? Probably, but WTF do I want to "talk" to someone for; when their website or manual could have just said something.

 

One last rant on their utility software. I downloaded Garmin's 2.21 USB drivers because mine were listed as 2.1 (the one that came with Metroguide 7). I was sure I has already updated the USB drivers once, but device manager said otherwise. Naturally it comes as an executable in a odd compression format. Well everytime it tried to install on the old USB driver, it would ask where grmn"somethingortheother".sys was. Well there was a c:\garmin\USB_drivers with the file, but it was the old 2.1 driver. This stupid executable, wouldn't overwrite the old USB driver. The only way I could update it was that I know that running these type of executables creates a temp directory in the c:\documents and setting\username\local settings\temp directory with the expanded files. Of course as soon as you close the program, the computer tends to delete the files.. So I ran the executable, and copy/pasted the new USB_drivers onto the old C:\garmin directory and then told windows to search there for the driver when the "new device found" window popped up.

 

I don't know if the program has an issue with old USB files in place, or was just screwed up. Either way I knew how to get around it, but someone not as well versed as I am with computers will have a helluva time if this USB update program is as big a piece of crap as I believe it to be.

 

Now I don't know if MS Streets and Trips is any better than Metroguide on the PC, but it does look a helluva lot nicer on initial 2-min random button click testing. But this is an apples to oranges thing since its an older version of Metroguide versus a brand new versio of the MS product.

 

Again my thanks to cacheoholic, who's posting led me to the solution, in a roundabout fashion!

Edited April 13, 2007 by xer0piggy

[CenTexDodger]

Thus I put up with the Garmin CSX series' inability to read their cards, which, as I have said, is in my opinion gimmicky, because the 76CSX for example, already can hold 120 something mg's of maps, which is a heck of a lot of maps. We needed more maps like a hole in the head.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with this point. The main reason I upgraded to the 60CSx was so I could put the entire US CN maps on and not have to mess with it all the time. We travel all over, so we were always putting different maps on it. If I had a dedicated car unit, I would feel differently, but my 60 is my do-all, and for me it does-all.

 

 

I did not say that the ability to put all those maps on the card is gimmicky. I said it is gimmicky that the unit cannot read other data from the card. Why not both maps and other data, instead of excluding three of the four functions of the unit. It is ridiculous that the unit cannot read the card. Someone had to say it.

 

No, I got what you were saying. My point was just that 120 mb of maps was not enough, which you seemed to say that it was. I understand what you are saying about having the unit read other data from the card. For you that is important. You talk as if that functionality is more important than the ability to save large amounts of map data, and for most users it is not.

[+Ellteejak]

So kinda Day3:

 

Low and Behold, there is topic concerning MS Streets and Trips right there (although for a different brand unit). In it a poster (thx cacheoholic!) mention's using Garmin's "spaner" to connect his 60CSx to the PC with the USB cable to make it work. So I go back to Garmin's website and type in a search for "spaner" using their search function. No luck! Maybe he typo'd it cause "spaner" looks odd. I try "spanner" with 2 n's and still NOTHING!. OK, it's Google time. God bless those IPO millionaires! Their software actually works. Even Garmin's website software is crap. A "google" search of "Garmin Spanner" comes up with a link straight to the Spanner download!!! A Garmin website search of "spanner" came up with NOTHING. THis does not reflect highly of Garmin's programming expertise. Here is the "spanner" program if you haven't got it: http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=1627

 

I install it and voila! Presto magnifico, a USB to virtual com port redirect. Of course, Garmin can't simply call it or even describe it as such (even though that's what it is). They have to call it "Spanner" as if that means a dadgum thing! In addition, according to the description for it: Spanner allows you to use your GPS 18 USB...yada, yade. WTF is a GPS 18? I don't know and the manual doesn't say. According to the website, its a GPS receiver only. The software/driver sure wasn't linked to the 60Cx in any form or manner. And yet amazingly, it works (as it should being nothing more than a USB-serial redirect).

 

I don't know if the program has an issue with old USB files in place, or was just screwed up. Either way I knew how to get around it, but someone not as well versed as I am with computers will have a helluva time if this USB update program is as big a piece of crap as I believe it to be.

 

Now I don't know if MS Streets and Trips is any better than Metroguide on the PC, but it does look a helluva lot nicer on initial 2-min random button click testing. But this is an apples to oranges thing since its an older version of Metroguide versus a brand new versio of the MS product.

 

 

I have to agree with you 100% about the Garmin web site and the disorganization, also that no one knows that you can do this USB to SERIAL port redirect of the NMEA data with the 60CS (now obviously I will be able to do this with my 76CSX too!! - THANK YOU SO MUCH!!)

 

Also look at this FAQ for the 60CX which tells you about much of what you have mentioned

60CX FAQ

 

The GPS 18 is the cheapest way to get a GPS new from Garmin with UNLOCK codes and maps via CITY NAVIGATOR. The GPS 18 is $100 at Amazon.com and it includes the UNLOCK code, plus of course you get a free extra for your other device. The GPS 18 is a "mouse GPS" (It looks like a mouse) that connects to your USB port and you place on your dash or on your rooftop.

 

And you are correct about the screwed up USB software driver install. I just did this work last night, but ended up installing the old driver, as I did not think about the WORK AROUND you mentioned.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Ellteejak

[+Ellteejak]

Xer0piggy -- have you done any research on sources for POIs and how they work with the 60CS? I downloaded a few (Duncan Donuts listing) for the GPS, but really I am more interested to what people have found for POIs to place in their 60CS.

[+Prime Suspect]

First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!

 

The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.

 

I missed it the same way I miss any "tiny" little "black-colored" emblem placed on a "black-colored" background. Just because not all of us are good at Where's Waldo, and means we immediately see that which is well-camoflaged (especially with older eyes). Like I said though, the on/off button and its placement are not a good or bad thing, just something I didn't obviously see at first.

 

Exactly the response I expected. I don't remember having any problem turning on my 60CSx when I first got it. Perhaps the shortcoming is not in the unit, but elsewhere....

[Intrepid Explorer]

 

You talk as if that functionality is more important than the ability to save large amounts of map data, and for most users it is not.

 

Now there is a farcical statement. If a user's track, waypoint and route requirements do not exceed the threshold of the unit's memory, how is it that unlimited maps are such a bonanza for that user? (and all these "most users" you represent ) You can't mark all those maps. You can't put markers, routes and tracks on all those maps in your handheld. Thus, rather than a portrayal of 'most' users needs, it speaks directly towards one user's lack of needing all of the unit's features.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Intrepid Explorer

[xer0piggy]

First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!

 

The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.

 

I missed it the same way I miss any "tiny" little "black-colored" emblem placed on a "black-colored" background. Just because not all of us are good at Where's Waldo, and means we immediately see that which is well-camoflaged (especially with older eyes). Like I said though, the on/off button and its placement are not a good or bad thing, just something I didn't obviously see at first.

 

Exactly the response I expected. I don't remember having any problem turning on my 60CSx when I first got it. Perhaps the shortcoming is not in the unit, but elsewhere....

 

I'm not exactly sure what kind of response you are hoping for. If it is a sarcastic response to my own limitations on eyesight, You're too late, I already called myself stupid for not finding it quickly.. In fact, I stated "my stupidity" about it in my very first post...

Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!

 

Exactly the response I expected.

 

Then why keep bringing it up? If I say I was stupid about the "on" button a few more times, will that change something or give you satisfaction? There have also been times I have lost my car keys when they were right in front of me. I was stupid then too; about finding them. I don't understand what you want as a satisfactory response as the wisdom escapes me.

 

Perhaps the shortcoming is not in the unit, but elsewhere....

 

Is this meant to be a veiled implication of my negative shortcomings? If so, then maybe you should be a bit more forthright about it as I am happy to agree with many of my shortcomings. "Or" perhaps, that since most of my issues have "not" been about the unit, but rather Garmin's poor software, then perhaps you are just restating and summing my posts for me?

 

If none of your three sentence response was meant to be inferred as being negative to myself, then I most humbly and publicly pre-apologize for misconstruing your intent. I could be being defensively "stupid", but sometimes it's hard to judge someone's intent over the Internet.

[xer0piggy]

Xer0piggy -- have you done any research on sources for POIs and how they work with the 60CS? I downloaded a few (Duncan Donuts listing) for the GPS, but really I am more interested to what people have found for POIs to place in their 60CS.

 

Sorry Ellteejak, I haven't got that far yet :-)!

[CenTexDodger]

 

You talk as if that functionality is more important than the ability to save large amounts of map data, and for most users it is not.

 

Now there is a farcical statement. If a user's track, waypoint and route requirements do not exceed the threshold of the unit's memory, how is it that unlimited maps are such a bonanza for that user? (and all these "most users" you represent ) You can't mark all those maps. You can't put markers, routes and tracks on all those maps in your handheld. Thus, rather than a portrayal of 'most' users needs, it speaks directly towards one user's lack of needing all of the unit's features.

 

Maybe so.

 

However, if this lack of functionality was such a serious flaw, then why is the unit such a top seller? Either people don't need it, or they are willing to trade it off for something else that it does really well. Prior to the age of the "x" models, the biggest complaint people had on this board about Garmin handhelds was the lack of memory for maps. People went with Magellan or Lowrance because they could put more maps on them than they could on comparable Garmins. Garmin's answer to that was the x series.

 

You are saying that the saving large amounts waypoint, route and track data to the memory card is as important as saving maps. I am saying that if these functions were so important to people, then they would have bought a Megellan, which has that capability. I stand by my original statement that for most users the functionality of which you speak is not that important.

[+HDxFATBOYxHD]

About the prices of maps

 

2 words

 

BitTorrent!!!!!!!

[+ArtieD]

Maybe so.

 

However, if this lack of functionality was such a serious flaw, then why is the unit such a top seller? Either people don't need it, or they are willing to trade it off for something else that it does really well. Prior to the age of the "x" models, the biggest complaint people had on this board about Garmin handhelds was the lack of memory for maps. People went with Magellan or Lowrance because they could put more maps on them than they could on comparable Garmins. Garmin's answer to that was the x series.

 

You are saying that the saving large amounts waypoint, route and track data to the memory card is as important as saving maps. I am saying that if these functions were so important to people, then they would have bought a Megellan, which has that capability. I stand by my original statement that for most users the functionality of which you speak is not that important.

 

I agree. The 60 and 76 series Garmins are top sellers for a reason. I'm sure most people don't need or care about saving all those tracks and routes. If they want to save a large amount of waypoints, POI Loader has it covered.

 

The 60 and 76 series Garmins are about the best units money can buy. Why? Those units do what people (especially here) want them to do very well...find geocaches, POI's and the ability to autoroute.

 

I guess most people are willing to trade features you suggest for those I outlined above.

Edited April 13, 2007 by Arthur & Trillian

[+ArtieD]

About the prices of maps

 

2 words

 

BitTorrent!!!!!!!

 

I don't think Groundspeak condones the sugggestion that people use pirated software.

 

You might want to edit your post.

[+MiMiAuEr]

My 60Cx arrived (overnight ---I couldn't wait) today.... I figured that today being the 13th might delay my weekend plans. I have to say that your thread was the primary reason I purchased the 60Cx. Right out of the box, I have had ZERO problems. So far it is intuitive to operate, although I feel that I am barely scratching the surface on the abilities contained within. I had a small problem with the naming of the caches downloaded to the unit but that was rectified via the preferences within EasyGPS (hence the name Easy).

 

I will post tomorrow concerning our first attempt at locating a cache using the 60Cx.

 

Pictures too....I really enjoy being able to download the waypoints straight to the unit. Utilizing the input method will cause callouses over time - beware. Plus, with an impending trip to the west coast, I can download caches within the local areas we are headed for (Seattle & Manzanita, Ore.) So they will be there when we arrive. Unless I forget to pack it.

 

Thank you for your detailed posting concerning the 60Cx.

 

Semper Fi

[+HDxFATBOYxHD]

About the prices of maps

 

2 words

 

BitTorrent!!!!!!!

 

I don't think Groundspeak condones the sugggestion that people use pirated software.

 

You might want to edit your post.

 

Who said anything about pirating?...Not me.

Take it for what you want.

[+HDxFATBOYxHD]

About the prices of maps

 

2 words

 

BitTorrent!!!!!!!

 

I don't think Groundspeak condones the sugggestion that people use pirated software.

 

You might want to edit your post.

 

Who said anything about pirating?...Not me.

Take it for what you want.

[Intrepid Explorer]

 

You are saying that the saving large amounts waypoint, route and track data to the memory card is as important as saving maps.

 

 

No, I'm saying that the ability to READ those from the card is an important omission. Keep trying, you'll get it right one of these days.

[+mstetz]

Hi. Could someone expound on the inability of the 60CSx to read tracks from the SD card? I have several gpx files on my home computer that have trails saved as tracks. Am I correct in understanding that if I download these tracks on my GPSr, I won't be able to use the trackback function to navigate on them? They appear on the GPSr, I can access them, but I have not tried to trackback on one yet.

 

Marty

[CenTexDodger]

Hi. Could someone expound on the inability of the 60CSx to read tracks from the SD card? I have several gpx files on my home computer that have trails saved as tracks. Am I correct in understanding that if I download these tracks on my GPSr, I won't be able to use the trackback function to navigate on them? They appear on the GPSr, I can access them, but I have not tried to trackback on one yet.

 

Marty

 

If you have tracks saved in internal memory, then you can use them. If you can see them on the screen, then you can trackback on them.

[CenTexDodger]

About the prices of maps

 

2 words

 

BitTorrent!!!!!!!

 

I don't think Groundspeak condones the sugggestion that people use pirated software.

 

You might want to edit your post.

 

Who said anything about pirating?...Not me.

Take it for what you want.

 

I don't really see how that would help anyway, at least for locked maps such as City Nav. Even if you downloaded pirated software, you would still need an unlock code to get it to work.

[CenTexDodger]

 

You are saying that the saving large amounts waypoint, route and track data to the memory card is as important as saving maps.

 

 

No, I'm saying that the ability to READ those from the card is an important omission. Keep trying, you'll get it right one of these days.

 

Alright, you are saying the ability to READ those from the card is an omission. How important it is is debatable, which was the point of my post that you hacked the above quote from, and which you did not respond to. I say again (maybe this time you will get it) either people don't need it, or they are willing to trade off for something else that it does really well. I am saying that if these functions were so important to people, then they would have bought a Megellan, which has that capability. I stand by my original statement that for most users the functionality of which you speak is not that important, or not as important as other functions

 

(please note that up to this point I have tried to be respectful in my discussion, and if I was rude (which I will admit to) it was because I was treated rudely!)

[+Gadget_Cacher]

xer0 your such a trouble maker

 

your review is very nice and you really will help new users understand things about their unit. Thanks

[Intrepid Explorer]

 

Alright, you are saying the ability to READ those from the card is an omission. How important it is is debatable, which was the point of my post that you hacked the above quote from, and which you did not respond to. I say again (maybe this time you will get it)

 

Oh contrair. I did respond to your premise, when I wrote this:

 

Now there is a farcical statement. If a user's track, waypoint and route requirements do not exceed the threshold of the unit's memory, how is it that unlimited maps are such a bonanza for that user? (and all these "most users" you represent ) You can't mark all those maps. You can't put markers, routes and tracks on all those maps in your handheld. Thus, rather than a portrayal of 'most' users needs, it speaks directly towards one user's lack of needing all of the unit's features.

 

Again: how is it that unlimited maps are such a bonanza for that user? (and all these "most users" you represent ) You can't mark all those maps. You can't put markers, routes and tracks on all those maps in your handheld. So. To summarize. You've got maps from here to hades-- if the unit's internal allotment is full for any of the three functions, you have no way to place that type of object on those maps in the field unless you bring a laptop. ( and of course delete the existing marks in the unit's memory) And you say this is not important because at least you have your maps. What you are defending is the equivalent of bringing 50 gallons of catsup to McDonald's for an order of french fries. We need more french fries for all that catsup. The maps are of limited use without marks on them. That is undeniable. Your premise, as I said, is farcical, and as I said, speaks directly towards your personal lack of needing all those functions in your travels. That is not a crime, but saying 'most' everyone has needs just like yours is fallacious. Garmin has given us, the consumer, a gazilllion maps and no way to mark them in a seamless fashion in the field. That is gimmicky.

 

This doesn't mean I dislike Garmin. I use Garmin. They are still the best. I'd like them to be better and rectify this. If Magellan and their piss-poor map software can do it, so can Garmin.

[Intrepid Explorer]

Hi. Could someone expound on the inability of the 60CSx to read tracks from the SD card? I have several gpx files on my home computer that have trails saved as tracks. Am I correct in understanding that if I download these tracks on my GPSr, I won't be able to use the trackback function to navigate on them? They appear on the GPSr, I can access them, but I have not tried to trackback on one yet.

 

Marty

 

Marty, in the field-- You can save tracks to the SD card, as many as the card will physically hold. But once you delete a track from the unit's internal memory, even though you saved it on the SD card, you will not have access to that track again because your GPS unit cannot read anything on that SD card except maps. So, only save data to the card that you know you won't be needing again before you get to a PC.