graffiti...

[+d-town cachers]

hey all...

 

i looked thru some old threads, but came up w/ nada, so i'm gonna ask. a friend and i were chatting last night, discussing my first hide. and as we talked, he came up with the idea of using graffiti as a waypoint. now i know what you are thinking, and no, we would not spray paint coords on a store front or something like that...

 

we were thinking it would be like a micro, except you wouldn't sign it. how does that follow with the regs? and would that necessarily be a multi-, or could it be a waypoint of a mystery. and that gets to my next question, when is something just a waypoint, and when is it a stage of a multi. cause aren't there multi-'s with coords only, and nothing to physically sign? so where is the boundary between a clue to a puzzle, and an actuly stage? ok, i know this is a little vague, but i don't want to give too much away if we can pull off a hide like we want to. thanks for your input

 

dtc

[+Miragee]

Using something that is already there to get a number for another stage of a Multi is fine, however, usually people use something more "permanent" than graffiti, like a date incised in concrete, or a number in a plaque, or a number in a street sign.

 

The waypoints of a Multi often don't have a container or anything to sign. Only the final has the logbook and the "treasure."

[+d-town cachers]

bear with me here...i'm slow.

 

so what differentiates a stage of a multi, from say something you use in a puzzle cache? or is against the rules to make a puzzle that uses written clues not in the cache description? i guess, what i'm trying to say is that my ultimate goal is to creat a simple puzzle cache...not a multi. yet, i would like to incorporate a similar idea to a stage of a multi as a clue in my puzzle...does that make any sense? is it allowed?

[Dinoprophet]

I'd say it depends on the puzzle. If, for example, it's just getting numbers from a marker and manipulating them to get coordinates, it can be a multi. If it's anything beyond relatively simple number manipulation, I would list it as a puzzle.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about not signing. It's typical for stages of a multi (or a multi-stage puzzle) to not have logbooks (some do). But there must be something to sign in the final stage.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+Isonzo Karst]

Your vagueness makes it tough to respond. You can use existing numbers, letters etc, (including EXISTING graffiti) to generate stage coords. You'll find that described in the listing guidelines as an Off-set multi cache.

 

Your final MUST have a log to sign. You'll find that in the listing guidelines as well.

 

listing guidelines

 

"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit"

 

If you have a firmer notion and questions, try emailing the reviewer local to you. That name will be on the "publish logs" on caches in your area.

[+d-town cachers]

thanks for the replies.

 

i apologize for being vague, i know it makes it tough to answer questions when you aren't sure of the questions!!

 

let's say, i knew of a place that many people have been known to leave little messages inscribed when they go there. we all know places like this...bathroom stalls, certain restaruants, etc. if there were a message there that would be necessary to solve a riddle, or a relatively easy puzzle, (by that i mean you wouldn't have to decode compter langueage or anything real in depth) is that something that would be

a. using an establishment (commercial)

b. using an outside source. (against updated regs, i think)

 

i hope that kinda of narrows it down..thanks again

[Dinoprophet]

If you don't have to pay to get into the establishment or buy anything, you might be okay on the commercial aspect. The outside source shouldn't apply, so that's okay.

 

As for the grafitti itself, be verrrrry careful. I've been in restaurants that have walls where people are encouraged to write things; if you're talking about something like that, I think it'd be okay (with the owner's permission, and with careful maintenance to make sure your message is always available). If you're literally talking about a bathroom stall -- well, I'm not sure that's my idea of a fun hunt, but personal taste aside, and the fact that half of the population couldn't access the clue, it'd have to be existing grafitti. And again, you'd have to make sure the clue would always be there.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+tozainamboku]

When you create a cache like you are describing, you have the choice of making the additional waypoints as "stages of multicache" or as "question to answer". If you use "question to answer" the cache could be listed either as a multi-cache or a mystery/unknown (aka puzzle cache). In either case there does not have to be a container or log at these intermediate waypoints. "Stages of multicache" will tell the review that you want to be sure that no one hides another cache within .1 of this waypoint, while "question to answer" doesn't apply the saturation rules. I have an unknown cache that uses "question to answer" to get information off of some signs at various locations that you then use to solve a puzzle. Another guideline remember is that you may not that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method. This would apply to any types of additional waypoints.

 

I would not use graffiti simply because it is more likely to get cleaned or painted over. I recently did a cache that referenced some graffiti in encrypted hint and the cache title. The graffiti has been painted over making the original hint worthless.

[+briansnat]

Before you hide any caches I suggest you read the guidelines first. Had you done so you would have found this under prohibited caches:

 

Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

So whether your idea involved spray painting the side of an overpass, or a tiny mark on a lavatory stall it would not be allowed.

[+d-town cachers]

whoa, just askin!

 

i realized pretty much from the get that defacing property to give coordinates would definitely not be allowed. but i guess i was asking how far that rule could be bent if it was property that you had explicit access to, and that defacement would be called art. i'm trying to ask without giving away the key point of my proposed cache, but that's kinda difficult i guess. thanks for the constructive crtiticism...

 

and before one assumes the OP asked before reading, maybe it would be helpful to remind oneself that they may have a better understanding of the guidelines than people new to this sport. just because the guidelines say something doesn't always mean its cut and dried. i guess i'll just ask my local reviewer if it gets that far.

 

Thanks again!

[+briansnat]

but i guess i was asking how far that rule could be bent if it was property that you had explicit access to, and that defacement would be called art. .

 

If you own the property in question, or have the express permission of the property owner, it would be OK.

 

I think most reviewers would try to discourage it though, because someone else might see it, think its a great idea and not realizing that you have permission, try it in the local park.

[+d-town cachers]

now that criticism, i will take to heart. i hadn't thought of that point specifically, but it makes sense. and to be honest, i don't "own" the property, per se, but that is a whole nother issue, that i don't think i would have an issue getting published.

 

has anyone ever done a cache like i'm descibing? and if so, how did they go about the guideline restiction? i like the one tozain described, although i was thinking slighty differently.

 

but thanks again folks!

[+halffast]

I placed a cache at the top of a mtn and placed it under a boulder that had graffity on it and used it as the (hint)

[k_statealan]

I'm working on a cache at a building here in Topeka that has graffiti all over the inside of the building, but there's one guy who dated his work in an area that one would have to be just a little bit insane to get to (hanging mostly upside down without a ladder or safety device 78' over a glass and steel panel with another 200' to fall if you go through that). Using the year he did it to work into the coordinates. The graffiti is a bit historic at this point and will not be removed in the foreseeable future.

[+Kealia]

 

has anyone ever done a cache like i'm descibing?

 

You still haven't said much. Honestly, you should just explain exactly what you want to do. The odds of many people on these boards living close enough to you to be able to find your cache (having it ruined by your explanation) is pretty low...

[+ScoutingWV]

Can't remember the cache ... "Long distance Call" or something like that .... but the gist was that you had to call someone in a public phone booth and get them to find the coordinates somewhere within their phone booth and tell them to you.

 

I think there was (or is) a micro on a sheet magnet riding the BART system in San Francisco. I know of another sheet-magnet style placed on a mounting pole at a billboard next to an interstate.

 

If the text is long-lasting enough to let folks come by and use it to find your cache, fine. Use it.

 

Just please don't add litter to create a cache stage. Please.

 

<edit: spellig>

Edited April 6, 2007 by ScoutingWV

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

We would NEVER create graffiti just to create a webpoint or clue.

 

However:

 

Two of our hides are near rocks that convenient have some pretty "permanent" looking grafiti on them that has been there for years. So we use something said on the grafiti as a hint/clue.

 

Of course, at some point the authorities might finally clean it all up and you have to use something else, but I think as long as YOU are not the one defacing it it's OK to use. Good luck!

[+d-town cachers]

well thanks for all the input. i would just like to say that no one should be concerned that graffiti with coordinates in it will be popping up or anything like that. i am a law-abiding citizen and i do not do things that are illegal, like knowingly deface public property....i don't care if it is for caching. and as far as the future cache, it is exactly that...something i will do in the future. after thinking real hard, i'm not sure i have the experience or the time to design something like this. plus, people seem to be generally oppose to ideas like this...so i guess i won't do it. thanks anyways though.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Another problem with graffiti is that searchers might be accused of doing the graffiti. I have heard a few police calls wherein people who were taking pictures of graffiti were questioned about why they were there.

 

Could be bad news if they have a spray paint can in their car, but most likely it would be just another innocent LEO encounter to write about in the log.

 

*Bart Simpson voice* "I Didn't do it"

 

Unrelated point:

Being advocate of the devil here, how would the reviewer know if the hider made hisher own hole/graffiti/mark/whatever or if it was already there and the cache owner just used it? (Obviously if the graffiti said "39 45.22 87 34.234" - no brainer)

Edited April 7, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[+Trucker Lee]

Problem I see is that the info the graffiti offers is only valid until the next tagger comes along.

[+legacypac]

Love on the rocks by wilboy (GCTEEE) uses a rock DEEP in the woods with a AB+CD on it too direct the seeker to the cache. The rock is a landmark, nothing else, in the cache. Unlikely to encounter the police here, and nothing to do with the rock except walk past it. If (and it is unlikely) someone cleaned up the paint, the posted coords would work just fine.

 

I think it unwise to use graffiti in anyway if it may be painted over (to cleanup, or by other graffiti), lead to suspiction of the seeker or hider, or cause other problems.

 

On the idea of using existing numbers - yesterday we went hunting a multi that had not been found for a while. Stage 2 required getting 5 numbers of a telephone pole. We are pretty sure the pole got replaced recently, making the cache unfindable. So even stuff that looks perminant may not be. By all means, use info hunting in caches, but think about the chances that an old telephone pole might be replaced, or trees cut down, or rocks moved. Pick long lasting things like addresses, historical plaques, # of lights on a bridge... or what have you. Even better if the cacher can learn something seeking the info, instead of looking for some useless bit of info - that way they feel like they are learning instead of wasting time.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Even better if the cacher can learn something seeking the info, instead of looking for some useless bit of info - that way they feel like they are learning instead of wasting time.

Excellent. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Furthermore, useless info like "number of lights on a bridge" can be easily guessed most times and the step can be skipped.