Cache Concerns

[Ham is lost]

As a police officer in Georgia I was discussing this activity with some co-workers one of whom is a member of the Bomb Squad. He is not a big fan of this because of all the calls he must respond to concerning painted PVC pipes and ammo boxes. A single "call out" involves several officers and at least 2-3 hours on scene not to mention the paper work afterwards. He understands the hobby and actually finds it "pretty cool" but when he is called out after only being home for 2-3 hours on a 90 degree day wearing a bomb suit he says its not to cool at the time. It would be nice if the administrators of this activity encourage or request a GEO sticker on at least 2 sides of the traditional cahce. We all know you guys are OK but we have to treat each call as a live bomb, the citizen makes the call and exagerates what they see, and we all want to go home. My brother in law is involved with the security of the many Cracker Barell Rest. He also gets several calls involving "suspicious objects /devices". Since most there are micro and he has learned of this activity the fear is not as great.

Just a suggestion. Maybe this has been addressed before I am sure it has. But with good concealment a sticker on 2 sides could be seen if one is looking for it, without the obvious detection of it's hiding place from the typical passer by. I myself am new and by no means have a say in this hobby, but just wanted to remind others that although simple and innocent our actions could adversely effect others. I look forward to your opinions and feedback.

[+Team Cotati]

You're quite correct, this has been discussed before, but only once or twice. Thank you for your insight.

[Team Misguided]

I'd suggest that your brother-n-law get in contact with the Georgia Geocachers Association. They are the oldest and one of the most well organized geocaching groups in the world. He can arrange to meet with them and get the word out. Many cachers don't read these forums so getting in touch with the local organization is a great way to get the information out to more of the loacal cachers.

[+CheshireFrog]

I'd suggest that your brother-n-law get in contact with the Georgia Geocachers Association. They are the oldest and one of the most well organized geocaching groups in the world. He can arrange to meet with them and get the word out. Many cachers don't read these forums so getting in touch with the local organization is a great way to get the information out to more of the loacal cachers.

 

Although knowing that there is supposed to be a cache at any given location, would the bomb squad really assume that a suspicious object is safe based on that alone?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Interesting post, one that's been discussed numerous times here and on local forums (I am no good at the Markwell search thing, sorry), but still interesting.

 

The pointer to the GGA (ggaonline.org) is a good one, their membership includes a number of Georgia police officers, including my friend vexorg-eppd, an officer whom I believe is a bomb-squad tech on the East Point PD.

 

I can't imagine how a geocaching sticker on a container would make a tech more confidant about its content, but my real question is; what percentage of items you are called out to inspect turn out to be geocaches?

 

Edited to add: If there is a geocache found at a Cracker Barrel that the manager is unaware of it should be removed and archived - geocaches on private property require permission.

Edited July 4, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

[Trinity's Crew]

Yes, as I recall from previous threads, the bomb squad usually tends to blow them up regardless of the markings just to be on the safe side.

[+sbell111]

... It would be nice if the administrators of this activity encourage or request a GEO sticker on at least 2 sides of the traditional cahce. We all know you guys are OK but we have to treat each call as a live bomb, the citizen makes the call and exagerates what they see, and we all want to go home.

While I do think that your idea is a good one, I don't think it will work for the very reason you stated. Regardless of whether the container is labelled, the officers will be controlled by procedure and destroy the cache.

My brother in law is involved with the security of the many Cracker Barell Rest. He also gets several calls involving "suspicious objects /devices". Since most there are micro and he has learned of this activity the fear is not as great.

I recall a thread around here somewhere that stated that corporate approval has been received regarding these micros. I'll see if I can't turn it up.

Just a suggestion. Maybe this has been addressed before I am sure it has. But with good concealment a sticker on 2 sides could be seen if one is looking for it, without the obvious detection of it's hiding place from the typical passer by. I myself am new and by no means have a say in this hobby, but just wanted to remind others that although simple and innocent our actions could adversely effect others. I look forward to your opinions and feedback.

You've touched on the real solution to avoid wasting the bomb squad's time. Caches should be hidden in a manner that avoids muggling. Similarly, finders should also do their best to avoid giving away cache locations.

[+pigpen4x4]

I can appreciate the concern as well.

I did one at a "Welcome to ....." sign, it was PVC and looked very much like a pipe bomb. I decided to conceal it as best I could walking back to the truck, as I felt the eyes of the world were upon me. I can just visualize some poor city worker stumbling across this thing and nearly having a heart attack. I think it would be better if it were labled better.

IF I ever create a cache, I will carefully consider how it looks to the rest of the world if they stumble accross it.

[+griffinox]

I scanned through the main post, but didn't read it in depth, so if I missed something, I apologize.

 

Wouldn't it save your bomb squad friend some time and such by getting a gps himself and putting all the caches in his aarea into it, so he can just check if there is one there and confirm it without all the extra stuff?

[Ham is lost]

Very good ideas from all and yes they do blow them up at times. I do not deal with stuff that explodes but I will mention to him the idea of being able to check this site for a cach at the cords, when called to a scene. Of course regardless they will treat every suspicious container as a bomb, but they may have some ways of verifying devices other than blowing them up. I was just kicking the idea around about stickers for those who approve new caches to offer as a suggestion. Someone might see the cache think suspicious device first, then see the stickers and "jog" their memory that there is an activity called Geo Caching. Of course any sick-o could place a device and put stickers on it, but chances are one of us hunters would blow up before somebody stumbles upon it and calls the police. Thanks for the ideas and I will ask him of any suggestions, I am sure he would be happy to notify me when he blows one up and I can contact owner.

[+thedeadpirate]

I've always wondered if they are going to blow the thing up, why not attempt to open it first.

 

Why can't they have the robot attempt to open the container. If it blows up, well that was what you were planning to do anyway. If not, then no harm, no foul. Of course, I am completely ignorant to how they handle bomb scares. Maybe the robots can't handle the pounding. But I do see them on tv or other video going in to investigate the "bomb", so I would think the bots would be built to withstand an explosion.

 

If this idea is completely nuts, then just ignore it. I just think if you're gonna blow it up, then you aren't losing anything by opening it to begin with.

[+Team Cotati]

Yeah, that'll work. If it there is a cache posted on gc.com that might possibly be in close proximity to a suspected bomb, you can safely grab that thing and shake it some to see if it is a cache or a bomb. Right.

[+thedeadpirate]

Yeah, that'll work. If it there is a cache posted on gc.com that might possibly be in close proximity to a suspected bomb, you can safely grab that thing and shake it some to see if it is a cache or a bomb. Right.

 

I was talking about one of the robots doing the opening, not a person.

[+mtn-man]

Robots don't open the suspected container. They typically shoot a high powered water jet at the object to destroy it. The robots don't have hands or thumbs. They have disrupters.

 

I am on the Georgia Geocachers Association Steering Committee. I would think these incidents would be on the news and/or in the paper. I honestly don't recall seeing any of these reports and I would think they would be a hot topic in our forums if they became remotely public. We would like to know about these issues. One local cacher seems to love these 4" to 6" pipe caches. I hate them when I find them because of what they look like, but they are not illegal so they are listed. I would encourage you to get in touch with me via my profile or to join the GGA discussion boards. We would love to have your people at one of our meetings as well. Our August one will be in Gwinnett County. We would love to put them on the agenda to come speak to the group so we can share ideas and work together.

[+sbell111]

I've always wondered if they are going to blow the thing up, why not attempt to open it first.

 

Why can't they have the robot attempt to open the container. If it blows up, well that was what you were planning to do anyway. If not, then no harm, no foul. Of course, I am completely ignorant to how they handle bomb scares. Maybe the robots can't handle the pounding. But I do see them on tv or other video going in to investigate the "bomb", so I would think the bots would be built to withstand an explosion.

 

If this idea is completely nuts, then just ignore it. I just think if you're gonna blow it up, then you aren't losing anything by opening it to begin with.

While we all typically state that the bomb squad blows up suspected bombs, this is not true. They typically destroy the object using air or water cannons, shot or shells to 'disrupt' the mechanism to avoid an explosion.

 

Unfortunately, our caches are not hardened sufficiently to withstand these blasts, so they got destroyed.

[+CheshireFrog]

We've had the bomb squad respond to caches twice in the last month and a half or so here in Colorado Springs. One was in town and one was out in Cheyenne Canyon.

 

I guess once the report has been made they have to respond, but you have to wonder who they thought would want to blow up the scrub oak out in the canyon.

 

It's interesting, in light of the previous posts, that both of these caches were cylidrical. One was a camo'd Pringles can and the other was a modified bicycle water bottle. In the long run it probably doesn't make any difference, but both of these things LOOK like what the public thinks a bomb should look like. On the other hand, they're not likely to see an ammo can as any less threatening.

 

As an ironic aside, a friend on the police force told me that as long as they don't get to be too frequent, the bomb squad welcomes the opportunity to train. I can see the value in that.

 

Unfortunately, our caches are not hardened sufficiently to withstand these blasts, so they got destroyed.

 

Doesn't matter. Even if they cleared them as being caches and not dangerous, they're not putting them back.

[+sbell111]

Unfortunately, our caches are not hardened sufficiently to withstand these blasts, so they got destroyed.

Doesn't matter. Even if they cleared them as being caches and not dangerous, they're not putting them back.

I guess I should have added a smiley to that sentence.

[+two left feet]

We had a cache in Edmond, OK destroyed by the Edmond bomb squad. I posted about this elsewhere but it might be good to repeat. The bomb squad supervisor came and spoke to our monthly geocacher meeting about it. We got to see the video from the robot shooting the cache. Key points were that red flags for the bomb squad are:

 

1. cylindrical objects

2. end caps on them

3. use of black electrical tape (or something that looks like it.

4. wires

5. camo colors

6. military or ordinance markings

 

He said it would be good not to have any of those features on caches that could be found by muggles. He also suggested that on caches in parks and public places to use clear plastic containers so they could see what was in them. He also said that smaller caches like 35mm film cans and magnetic key holders were not much of an issue with the bomb squad but that the drug enforcement units might check them out because drug dealers use them for drugs and money containers. Wouldn't that be an interesting accidental find?

 

He also suggested putting your phone number where it was visible. Most people there did not like that idea. I would not mind putting my pager number on a cache and marking it as such.

 

At least in Calif some reviewers are not approving caches made of PVC pipe. My son in Alhambra had his rejected for that reason.

 

On a similar note; we just went to a cache located at the front door of the New Mexico State Trooper HQ in Raton Pass. It is in a green ammo can just outside their door!!

 

I think one of the key points for me is to not place anything that could cause concern to a muggle where they might stumble onto it.

[+CheshireFrog]

Unfortunately, our caches are not hardened sufficiently to withstand these blasts, so they got destroyed.

Doesn't matter. Even if they cleared them as being caches and not dangerous, they're not putting them back.

I guess I should have added a smiley to that sentence.

 

Hey, if the bomb squad blows up a cache, do they still get to log it? Individually, or as a team?

[+headybrew]

All of my recently placed caches have my name, email and *cell* phone number, and the web site url, clearly visible on the outside. I use a p-touch or dymo label maker with the plasticized label tape. It works great, and is impossible to miss. Hand written lables with permanent markers are harder to see/read at a distance.

 

Unless the cache is in the middle of nowhere, I use a see-thru container now. I think the important thing is to avoid having the bomb-squad called in the first place. Nip it in the bud at the time the muggle sees it, before the call is ever made. The see-thru container goes a long way toward that, don't you think?

 

Just don't duct-tape it to a bridge support!

[+Nightcrawler.]

We had a cache in Edmond, OK destroyed by the Edmond bomb squad. I posted about this elsewhere but it might be good to repeat. The bomb squad supervisor came and spoke to our monthly geocacher meeting about it. We got to see the video from the robot shooting the cache. Key points were that red flags for the bomb squad are:

 

 

I was going to mention this, but TLF beat me to it!

 

One of the other very valuable things we learned at that meeting was that constructing a device that resembles a bomb or explosive device can be considered a FEDERAL OFFENCE. I have since removed my PVC pipe cache from a park in OKC...

[+GRANPA ALEX]

I don't know . . . suppose I was a person inclined to 'camo' my bomb, make it look innocent, by placing geocaching.com stickers on two sides - then, what?

 

The real answer is to go online at gc.com with the coords and simply check it out . . . but, a bad person can log a hide (bomb) there, too. Is there really an answer other than blowing the darn thing up to be safe?

[bogleman]

Is there really an answer other than blowing the darn thing up to be safe?

 

Nope, if they are called something is going to be "disrupted".

 

There are many factors involved such as the location, type of container, what it looks like. There are portable x-ray devices that can be used but not every department has them. As for the robots they cost some big time money - you tell the Chief that you blew up the robot doing "WHAT", they are used for positioning equipment keeping the officers safe.

 

I am willing to bet that a majority of the caches destroyed by LEO's were in prohibited/off-limit locations or too close to a building or other similar object.

[+Quest Master]

Here's a list of caches that had a brush with the law. Many of them were blown up.

 

The recipie for having a cache blown up is pretty simple. If somebody finds your cache, thinks it's suspicious, and calls in the authorities, it's probably going to get blown up. Labeling containers is one good way to reduce the chances of a cache being perceived as a threat but it certainly isn't foolproof. Location and container selection are other factors that should be considered when hiding caches.

 

I think that education of bomb squads could help. I received the following from a bomb squad LEO who saved at least one cache from being blown up:

 

What a great world we live in! First you have to camoflage a cache so that the malicious knuckleheads of the world to screw with them and then world events get the sheep of the world so scared they discard logic and call the police. At the risk of sounding like a politician, education seems to be the best solution. Encourage people to contact their local bomb squads and offer to meet them for training opportunities. For the most part cops, in general, are a great population to recruit for participants in the sport. Most of the co-workers I have enlighntened have ventured out to search and love it.

 

My first exposure to the sport (it involves a lot os sweating sometimes so it must be a sport, right?) was bomb squad related. Several years ago a maintenance team found a suspicious package near a railroad tunnel and called police. The location was very remote and another guy on our team had engaged in the sport during search and rescue training, so we had a strong feeling of what we were going to find at the outset based on our initial threat assessment. We left the cache that time but we were unaware of the website and level of organization and didn't make any follow up contacts.

 

Since that time I have become a member, our local news media have had several positive stories about the sport and I have added it to any community training I am asked to provide. Another member and I have been trying to coordinate some cross training here in the local area for 'cachers and cops.

 

When I have the time and computer, I check suspicious package calls against the GeoCache list before we respond. Unfortunately, my assigment to the bomb squad is not a full time position. We each have a full time assignment to some aspect of the department. I am currently a detective in our violent crimes unit and the daily displays of man's in-humanity towards their fellow man cuts into my "spare" time for the bomb stuff.

 

A lot of the decision making when confronted with a suspicious package revolves around threat assessment and possible targets. The specific cache you are asking about landed far enough down my threat assessment, lacked an identifiable target and then mixed with my knowledge of the sport allowed me to have the confidence to approach and handle the package. I was able to confirm it was a cache and the people that control the area agreed with me to leave it in play. On our team we have come to an agreement that we will leave items in play whenever possible.

 

Two things that are always going to be a major concern to bomb technicians: ammo cans and pipes, especially in an urban area. These are the containers that make up a majority of our "problems". Even if marked as a cache, some will not be willing to risk an up close examination and/or will not accept the markings at face value, fearing a "come-on" booby trap device. My personal opinion, stay as far away as possible from obvious high threat areas (infrastructure, government instalations, downtown core areas, transportation centers etc), physically mark the cache, balance the need to camoflage, to protect from knuckleheads, with the need to make the container obviously not an explosive threat that gets the water cannon every time ;-) I like clear plastic containers, but I realize that is not always practical. Covered or solid sided containers MAY be x-ray'd before further action is taken, so some thought as to what not to have inside is in order. Batteries, wire and electronics are a sure way to get your cache shot.

 

I think that there are some lessons in here for all of us.

[+sbell111]

One of the other very valuable things we learned at that meeting was that constructing a device that resembles a bomb or explosive device can be considered a FEDERAL OFFENCE. I have since removed my PVC pipe cache from a park in OKC...

The mere presence of PVC is not going to make you in violation of this law.

[CoyoteRed]

He also suggested putting your phone number where it was visible. Most people there did not like that idea.

 

We've put our phone numbers on caches and even one particular cache page. There's never been a problem. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Linky to a related thread.

[+OHMIKY]

The simple solution - and one required by guidelines published by some states' park administrators - is to use a transparent container. Then a person finding it can see quickly and easily what it is.

 

(edited to correct sloppy typing)

Edited July 30, 2006 by OHMIKY

[+edscott]

Unfortunately, our caches are not hardened sufficiently to withstand these blasts, so they got destroyed.

Doesn't matter. Even if they cleared them as being caches and not dangerous, they're not putting them back.

I guess I should have added a smiley to that sentence.

 

Hey, if the bomb squad blows up a cache, do they still get to log it? Individually, or as a team?

 

Only if they signed the log first...

[+edscott]

Some random thoughts.

ID Stickers could be duplicted by anyone. They should be meaningless to the bomb squad but might prevent some little old lady from getting her panties in a bunch and calling in an alarm.

 

If local officials feel a need to check out every possible thing that could contain a bomb they will be very busy. How about every empty beer or soda can along the road... Every abandoned car in the city... everyone with a loose fitting overcoat. Anyone else think we are getting a bit paranoid? I can see if it is under a bridge support. or near an electrical substation or whatever.. but in the woods next to a tree or in a rock crevice?

 

Maybe this is really a call to improve our cache locations to keep them away from the public and out of the parking lots and mini parks where they are apt to be found and misunderstood.

 

Could it be that the demise of the virtual has increased the number of caches in high traffic areas and thus increased our exposure to criticism?