Logging Member Only Caches When Not A Premium Member

[+slumbersix]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

[+KBer]

I would fasten your seat belt, put your tray in an upright position and stow your belongings, you are about to get slammed.

[+slumbersix]

I would fasten your seat belt, put your tray in an upright position and stow your belongings, you are about to get slammed.

 

I figured that, but hey... I wanted opinions.

 

I'll start with my opinion and fasten my seatbelt even tighter.

 

I, personally, think that its ok. I had the co-ordinates in my GPS, found the cache just like the other caches that day, and my name is in the logbook. The only thing I can't do is access the caches description page.

 

It should count as a find according to all the rules then. I would just have to go about getting the co-ords in a different fashion. It also lets me keep a log of those caches so that if they ever become regular caches I can go back and delete the old log and then go log it onto the actual caches page.

[+briansnat]

There is a way. A back door that has purposefully been left open for situations like yours. I don't know the details though.

 

I don't think there is any reason to slam you. You're hunting with others. What are you supposed to do, stay in the car because its MOC?

 

Now if you were going out and getting the coords illegally, then logging through the back door, that would be a horse in a different garage.

[+Gary and Mary Adventurers]

Again, since the cache is owned by the person that hid it, and he chooses to have it be a MO cache, then ......Sorry, you are out of luck..... The owner can choose to have the cache be what he wants. It is a benefit of being a premium member to be able to find and log MO caches. To "cheat" and log a find in a different manner, is unfair to all the folks that have decided to pay and support this great site. If you want to log it, pay for at least one months membership, and log it during that month.

 

That would be fair to all concerned.

[+slumbersix]

Again, since the cache is owned by the person that hid it, and he chooses to have it be a MO cache, then ......Sorry, you are out of luck..... The owner can choose to have the cache be what he wants. It is a benefit of being a premium member to be able to find and log MO caches. To "cheat" and log a find in a different manner, is unfair to all the folks that have decided to pay and support this great site. If you want to log it, pay for at least one months membership, and log it during that month.

 

That would be fair to all concerned.

 

It's not cheating when my name is in the LOGBOOK. I have found the cache, wrote my name in the cache, just can't log my find online on the cache page(or so I had thought).

 

Apparently I'm not out of luck as GC.com left a backdoor open to log MO caches without being a premium member. Now that I know how to do it, this has been cleared up.

 

As for me not having a premium member account, there's plenty of reasons for that.

 

1. Not enough member only caches in my area to even bother with it

2. It creates a sense of elitism among geocachers "Oh, I'm a premium member, you're not, oh... Too bad for you"

3. Don't do paper caching

4. Geocaching wasn't created to be commercial in nature and that's what its evolving into.

[+GClouse]

I think the purpose of premium membership is to encourage funding by providing some perqs. Geocaching.com has to pay for the hosting services somehow. It's kindof like public TV. My 9-year-old son often goes with me to geocache. He signe the paper log but doesn't have an account on geocaching .com. The cache owner decides to make the cache a members-only cache for his/her own reasons. You may consider sending a note to the cache owner in the situation you described.

[+slumbersix]

I think the purpose of premium membership is to encourage funding by providing some perqs. Geocaching.com has to pay for the hosting services somehow. It's kindof like public TV. My 9-year-old son often goes with me to geocache. He signe the paper log but doesn't have an account on geocaching .com. The cache owner decides to make the cache a members-only cache for his/her own reasons. You may consider sending a note to the cache owner in the situation you described.

 

They also get their funding from shirts, travel bugs, geocoin numbers, and everything else in their store.

 

I realize that the cache owner makes the cache a members only cache for their own reasons. However, if I'm out with a group of geocachers and I sign my name in the logbook there's a way to log your find on the cache page. Thankfully I know that now so I won't have to hear others complain.

[+smilingsteeles]

Again, since the cache is owned by the person that hid it, and he chooses to have it be a MO cache, then ......Sorry, you are out of luck..... The owner can choose to have the cache be what he wants. It is a benefit of being a premium member to be able to find and log MO caches. To "cheat" and log a find in a different manner, is unfair to all the folks that have decided to pay and support this great site. If you want to log it, pay for at least one months membership, and log it during that month.

 

That would be fair to all concerned.

well said and I definitely agree.

[+Drgnsrealm]

My answer to this question...

 

Spend the $3.00 a month and get a Premium Membership. I'm sure you spend more than that a day on soda, or coffee.

 

Then there'll be no problem. You can cache as much as you want, and as many times as you like, with or without a group, and no one will flame you for it.

 

Then you can log any find, be it a normal *snickers* cache, or a PMC

 

It's only $3.00. Pocket change.

 

Heck I found that much under the couch cushions.

[+golfgods]

Support the cause, without the premium members you wouldn't have what you do for free.

[+Colorado Cacher]

It's cheating if you didn't enter the cache's webpage as a member and get the numbers as a member, or sign the logbook as a member. So that makes you a cheater to those of us that do support the cause and don't cheat to get our numberts. : )~~~

[+Txnurse97]

I had some caches that were member only for awhile (many caches in my area were getting vandalized at the time.) I was happy to change it to open to everyone so that a non member could log it, and then I would change it back after that. All the non member needed to do was email me to let me know they'd like to log it.

[+Team Neos]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

My husband and I share one premium account, so we have come across this before. There is a way for a non-member to log the MO cache, and we have never had an owner upset with us. There are many ways to "support" geocaching without having to pay $3 just to be able to log one or two caches ~ Although you really might want to consider becoming a member for some of the other benefits! (PQs were worth the $$ for me).

 

In a recent discussion in another forum, Lil Devil, said this about logging member finds:

 

A couple of months ago, in this thread Jeremy acknowleged the logging loophole and said there was no reason to close it. Since then I have been inundated with emails asking how to do it. I am now posting the steps publicly, as I fully believe that the purpose of MO caches is to prevent non-members from viewing the page, as WH said. I see no reason to prevent non-members from logging those caches.

 

Go to any cache. Click the link, "log your visit."

That will take you to a page with a url such as http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=89885

If you know the numeric ID of the MOC cache you want to log, just change the number at the end of the url.

 

If you don't know the numeric ID, change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCGTAE

 

From there just log as usual.

 

You will always be able to read your own log, but you won't be able to see the actual cache page until you become a premium member.

[+nudlez]

I'd say, members are paying for their membership for a reason... whether it's the .gpx files, or pocket queries, or members only caches, or just because $30 for a year's worth of supporting a site that you enjoy is worth the money... Geocaching.com isn't trying to rip anyone off, but they've got bills to pay just like anyone else. I also think that if you've got the money to spend on a GPSr (those things aren't cheap!), you can honestly float the $3 to support an organization that is the soul of a sport that you enjoy. Think about it - without those paid members, you wouldn't be able to log a find on any of those caches at all. And I think the idea behind members-only caches is to keep the caches available to people who will take it seriously - will appreciate the cache more, and trade items more fairly. Anyone can get a free account and find the coordinates to a cache that's loaded with goodies, but in general a paid member will probably leave some goodies to make up for it. Of course that doesn't apply to everyone, but I think that's the theory behind making a cache "members-only". It's not necessarily to outcast non-members, or to create an elitist group, but to tell the paid members that their support is appreciated. And if you're short enough on cash that you can't afford $30 for a year, then you can probably appreciate what the guys at geocaching.com are about - they've got volounteer publishers, have full-time jobs, and do this for the same reason most cachers do - to enjoy the outdoors and find some neat parks and areas along the way. I know that it's not fun to be able to support an organization that you believe in, but at least you can remember where these caches are - sign your name, pay $3 for one month, and log all of them that you've found in the past year. Then, instead of $30 for a year, you're paying $3. You can always change the log date, and still get credit for the find, even if it is a year later. Then, if money is an issue, you're paying $.25 per month. If anyone agrees/disagrees, let me know.

[+naoc]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

 

Why? Your the reason I think GC should have a different MO cache that is more elite. Sure I like to find all caches, MO or not but it is nice to know when you go to a MO caches you would hopefully get better items. I put a compass and first aid kit and flashlights and stuff you would like to have out on the trail. It's getting old finding a cache that has been littered with happy meal toys and 23 cents someone had in their pocket. I think of it as a treasure hunt, I like the idea of getting cool items when i finally find it. Why should I pay for my membership and just let you log it on mine or some archived cache (which is totally jacked up by the way)? Like nudlez said they don't put them on their to make a bunch of elitist they put it on their for you to help support them and the website. I highly doubt paying a DB administrator and web designer is exactly cheap and you could support the people that offer this service to you whether or not you use the paperless caches or don’t have that many MO caches in your area. If it doesn’t become somewhat commercialized it would be a crappy site with no features what so ever and they could have just put a page with a bunch of coordinates of caches on them. MO caches in my eyes should be of a better caliber, because the people placing them should know that the people finding them will do the cache right and place something worth while or take nothing at all. Regular caches are great but how many times have they been raped off their contents and it just totally ruined it for the next one to find it. ie coins & TB that were suppose to be there but are not. Most of the caches are eventually found by someone that only picks up a couple caches leaves hardly anything that is worth anything and quits. Just like the people that pay good money for coins and TB's (which are more than the monthly cost of a membership) they are robbed of the enjoyment of seeing their TB or Coin travel. Its the same crap result and just like what your doing belittles the sport. I hope you reconsider what you are doing and try to make the sport more enjoyable for everyone in all aspects.

 

Me personally.....I will remove anyone that logs my cache (loop hole or not) that is not a premium member from my MO caches.

Edited June 6, 2006 by naoc

[+slumbersix]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

 

Why? Your the reason I think GC should have a different MO cache that is more elite. Sure I like to find all caches, MO or not but it is nice to know when you go to a MO caches you would hopefully get better items. I put a compass and first aid kit and flashlights and stuff you would like to have out on the trail. It's getting old finding a cache that has been littered with happy meal toys and 23 cents someone had in their pocket. I think of it as a treasure hunt, I like the idea of getting cool items when i finally find it. Why should I pay for my membership and just let you log it on mine or some archived cache (which is totally jacked up by the way)?

 

Wait, so just because I'm not a premium member that means I will automatically take the good stuff and leave junk? Just so you know, I do not trade items at caches. I just write my name and move on. You cannot make the generalization that non-premium members take the good stuff and leave junk. I've seen plenty of premium members do just that.

 

Also, the logging of the finds was under one of my brothers archived caches as I cache with him alot. I could easily have logged the cache finds under one of my active caches(as I have no archived caches) and figured it would do better underneath an archived cache as its not visible to anyone searching for active caches.

 

Like nudlez said they don't put them on their to make a bunch of elitist they put it on their for you to help support them and the website. I highly doubt paying a DB administrator and web designer is exactly cheap and you could support the people that offer this service to you whether or not you use the paperless caches or don’t have that many MO caches in your area. If it doesn’t become somewhat commercialized it would be a crappy site with no features what so ever and they could have just put a page with a bunch of coordinates of caches on them. MO caches in my eyes should be of a better caliber, because the people placing them should know that the people finding them will do the cache right and place something worth while or take nothing at all. Regular caches are great but how many times have they been raped off their contents and it just totally ruined it for the next one to find it. ie coins & TB that were suppose to be there but are not. Most of the caches are eventually found by someone that only picks up a couple caches leaves hardly anything that is worth anything and quits. Just like the people that pay good money for coins and TB's (which are more than the monthly cost of a membership) they are robbed of the enjoyment of seeing their TB or Coin travel. Its the same crap result and just like what your doing belittles the sport. I hope you reconsider what you are doing and try to make the sport more enjoyable for everyone in all aspects.

 

Me personally.....I will remove anyone that logs my cache (loop hole or not) that is not a premium member from my MO caches.

 

So you want to alter the history of the cache even if someone legitemately finds the cache? Would you go and scratch my name off of the paper logbook also?

 

Maybe from here on out I'll just find caches, not log them, and not give the owners of the cache the privelage of reading of the adventures...

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

First, I would not, in any case, recommend logging a "surrogate find" for another cache such as an archived cache. Next, we own a great many Premium Member Only caches, aka PMOCs. If you are not a premium member, but you find one of our caches, perhaps while accompanying others cachers who are PMs, or via some other means (i.e., found using intuition, a dowsing rod, or acting on guidance received from space aliens, etc.), you are MORE than welcome to log a find on any of our PMOCs. In fact, this has already happened a few times, and most times, the non-PM finder used any of several common (and well-known) workarounds to log their finds on our cache listing pages, but in at least two cases, we have -- upon request -- lifted the PMOC status (in one case for a few hours, in another case for two days) of our PMOCs in order to allow non-PM finders to log their finds. This is simply not a problem for us. We are here to place good caches for the enjoyment of the geo community. While we have very good reasons for making many of them PMOC, we are not here to punish the few non-PM cachers who find our PMOCs, nor to deprive anyone of a valid find log.

 

However, having said that, I must say that if a non-PM cacher continues to find more and more of our PMOCs, I would strongly recommend to them that they become a PM in order to support geocaching.com. If they did not become a PM, but continued to chronically and regularly log our PMOCs, I might consider taking other actions.

 

Oh, and this is a zero-drama issue for me.

Edited June 6, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+naoc]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

 

Why? Your the reason I think GC should have a different MO cache that is more elite. Sure I like to find all caches, MO or not but it is nice to know when you go to a MO caches you would hopefully get better items. I put a compass and first aid kit and flashlights and stuff you would like to have out on the trail. It's getting old finding a cache that has been littered with happy meal toys and 23 cents someone had in their pocket. I think of it as a treasure hunt, I like the idea of getting cool items when i finally find it. Why should I pay for my membership and just let you log it on mine or some archived cache (which is totally jacked up by the way)?

Wait, so just because I'm not a premium member that means I will automatically take the good stuff and leave junk? Just so you know, I do not trade items at caches. I just write my name and move on. You cannot make the generalization that non-premium members take the good stuff and leave junk. I've seen plenty of premium members do just that.

 

Also, the logging of the finds was under one of my brothers archived caches as I cache with him alot. I could easily have logged the cache finds under one of my active caches(as I have no archived caches) and figured it would do better underneath an archived cache as its not visible to anyone searching for active caches.

 

You are correct when you say premium members do this as well, but the hope is when anyone finds something they place something of equal value or more in the cache. It makes finding them even more special. I wasnt trying to stereotype you either, rather just trying to show an example of what most people tend to do. I'm sorry though, logging a cache in a archived cache period just for a number is a little on the lame end of things. Seriously, to me that just seems wrong.

 

Like nudlez said they don't put them on their to make a bunch of elitist they put it on their for you to help support them and the website. I highly doubt paying a DB administrator and web designer is exactly cheap and you could support the people that offer this service to you whether or not you use the paperless caches or don’t have that many MO caches in your area. If it doesn’t become somewhat commercialized it would be a crappy site with no features what so ever and they could have just put a page with a bunch of coordinates of caches on them. MO caches in my eyes should be of a better caliber, because the people placing them should know that the people finding them will do the cache right and place something worth while or take nothing at all. Regular caches are great but how many times have they been raped off their contents and it just totally ruined it for the next one to find it. ie coins & TB that were suppose to be there but are not. Most of the caches are eventually found by someone that only picks up a couple caches leaves hardly anything that is worth anything and quits. Just like the people that pay good money for coins and TB's (which are more than the monthly cost of a membership) they are robbed of the enjoyment of seeing their TB or Coin travel. Its the same crap result and just like what your doing belittles the sport. I hope you reconsider what you are doing and try to make the sport more enjoyable for everyone in all aspects.

 

Me personally.....I will remove anyone that logs my cache (loop hole or not) that is not a premium member from my MO caches.

 

So you want to alter the history of the cache even if someone legitemately finds the cache? Would you go and scratch my name off of the paper logbook also?

 

Maybe from here on out I'll just find caches, not log them, and not give the owners of the cache the privelage of reading of the adventures...

 

legitemately is the key word here.....you didnt find it legitemately, you found it because someone your with had the cords or by some other means. I would not scratch your name off the log book but like i said I would make sure you wouldnt get credit for finding on GC.com. If you get enjoyment from adding it to your stats by some other round about way...... well thats up to you.

 

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Oh, and my observation has been that, in general, Premium-Member-Only caches (PMOC) which have been in existence for some time tend to have higher quality trade items than non-PMOC caches which have been in place for the same length of time. Same is true of caches with a Terrain rating of 4 or above: my experience is that the quality of the trade items rises exponentially as Terrain rating increases above a 4.0.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

My husband and I share one premium account, so we have come across this before. There is a way for a non-member to log the MO cache, and we have never had an owner upset with us. There are many ways to "support" geocaching without having to pay $3 just to be able to log one or two caches ~ Although you really might want to consider becoming a member for some of the other benefits! (PQs were worth the $$ for me).

 

In a recent discussion in another forum, Lil Devil, said this about logging member finds:

 

A couple of months ago, in this thread Jeremy acknowleged the logging loophole and said there was no reason to close it. Since then I have been inundated with emails asking how to do it. I am now posting the steps publicly, as I fully believe that the purpose of MO caches is to prevent non-members from viewing the page, as WH said. I see no reason to prevent non-members from logging those caches.

 

Go to any cache. Click the link, "log your visit."

That will take you to a page with a url such as http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=89885

If you know the numeric ID of the MOC cache you want to log, just change the number at the end of the url.

 

If you don't know the numeric ID, change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCGTAE

 

From there just log as usual.

 

You will always be able to read your own log, but you won't be able to see the actual cache page until you become a premium member.

Agreed. Thanks! While I prefer that folks who wish to chronically and consistently log Premium Member -Only caches (PMOCs) become Premium members, I have no problems with these interim workarounds being used occasionally.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Again, since the cache is owned by the person that hid it, and he chooses to have it be a MO cache, then ......Sorry, you are out of luck..... The owner can choose to have the cache be what he wants. It is a benefit of being a premium member to be able to find and log MO caches. To "cheat" and log a find in a different manner, is unfair to all the folks that have decided to pay and support this great site. If you want to log it, pay for at least one months membership, and log it during that month.

 

That would be fair to all concerned.

 

It's not cheating when my name is in the LOGBOOK. I have found the cache, wrote my name in the cache, just can't log my find online on the cache page(or so I had thought).

 

Apparently I'm not out of luck as GC.com left a backdoor open to log MO caches without being a premium member. Now that I know how to do it, this has been cleared up.

 

As for me not having a premium member account, there's plenty of reasons for that.

 

1. Not enough member only caches in my area to even bother with it

2. It creates a sense of elitism among geocachers "Oh, I'm a premium member, you're not, oh... Too bad for you"

3. Don't do paper caching

4. Geocaching wasn't created to be commercial in nature and that's what its evolving into.

It is not about geocaching becoming commercial. It is about the realities of supporting the world's largest geocache-listing service (which happens to offer all kinds of related amenities as well), since you admit that you use this service. Such services are not free, and rather such a service incurs server costs, employee costs, hosting and broadband web access costs, as well as many other costs. Why not "get real" and help to support the website, if you find that you are needing to perform workarounds more than once per year just to log Premium Member-only caches?

[+slumbersix]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

First, I would not, in any case, recommend logging a "surrogate find" for another cache such as an archived cache. Next, we own a great many Premium Member Only caches, aka PMOCs. If you are not a premium member, but you find one of our caches, perhaps while accompanying others cachers who are PMs, or via some other means (i.e., found using intuition, a dowsing rod, or acting on guidance received from space aliens, etc.), you are MORE than welcome to log a find on any of our PMOCs. In fact, this has already happened a few times, and most times, the non-PM finder used any of several common (and well-known) workarounds to log their finds on our cache listing pages, but in at least two cases, we have -- upon request -- lifted the PMOC status (in one case for a few hours, in another case for two days) of our PMOCs in order to allow non-PM finders to log their finds. This is simply not a problem for us. We are here to place good caches for the enjoyment of the geo community. While we have very good reasons for making many of them PMOC, we are not here to punish the few non-PM cachers who find our PMOCs, nor to deprive anyone of a valid find log.

 

However, having said that, I must say that if a non-PM cacher continues to find more and more of our PMOCs, I would strongly recommend to them that they become a PM in order to support geocaching.com. If they did not become a PM, but continued to chronically and regularly log our PMOCs, I might consider taking other actions.

 

Oh, and this is a zero-drama issue for me.

 

That was the problem, I didn't know that there was a workaround until just yesterday when someone finally let me in on that little "secret". I transfered all of the surrogate finds that I had placed into the correct caches once I found out how to do it.

 

And it's not like there was a huge amount of member only caches that I had found while out with the groups... There were four, but they were ones that I would like to have logged. Now that they are and I found out how to log them properly, there really isn't much left to discuss on this subject.

[+Hokers]

They also get their funding from shirts, travel bugs, geocoin numbers, and everything else in their store.

 

So have you bought anything from the site?

[+TEAM 360]

Another benefit of my NOT logging online...

 

I know how to get the coords, etc...and I can go find the cache, sign the logbook, trade items and add it to my list of finds...

 

Nothing to delete online, so there's nothing the cache owner can do about it.

[+NeverSummer]

 

They also get their funding from shirts, travel bugs, geocoin numbers, and everything else in their store.

 

I realize that the cache owner makes the cache a members only cache for their own reasons. However, if I'm out with a group of geocachers and I sign my name in the logbook there's a way to log your find on the cache page. Thankfully I know that now so I won't have to hear others complain.

 

If you understand the processes involved with being a premium member, you would see that:

 

1. Caching shouldn't have to be about the smilies--you were with another group and your name is in the logbook. 'Nuf said.

 

2. Your name in the logbook does count as a find, but not really by GC.com standards: Member only caches are exactly that.

 

3. There is no elitism in being a Premium member. You are just, as someone else said, helping give a bit back and get some perks in return. PQs, mapping caches, MO caches, etc.

 

4. It's the principle of the thing. Any cacher can make a cache Members Only--not just Premium members. There are reasons in doing it. Now, if you are with a premium, that's one thing. If someone thwarts coords and heads out for a smilie, then its a bit suspect.

 

5. If you want a find logged online, have your Premium cache buddies add your story to their log. It may not give you the points we all seek to attain "super-cool-ocity" and a life in the caching afterlife, but you may want to contact the cache owner first, seeming as it is their cache and listing.

 

All that said--why not contact the cache owner BEFORE using the loophole/backdoor/cheat method? Then you minimize offense risk--after all, the cache owner made it PMOC for a reason.

 

just my 2cents.

[+BlueDeuce]

I took my nine year old caching (I'm a Premium Member, she's not), after we hit an MOC she looked up at me and said, "Daddy, Since I am mooching off of your access is it okay if I log one of your caches, so I get credit for this one?" I shook my head sadly and said, ‘No sweetie, I’m a premium member and therefore better than you, if you are willing to give up something, like eating breakfast, I would be willing to pay the 3 dollars so can log it and your record count will stand against those who say you are not a cacher. ”

 

Actually I think it was,

“Sweetie, This cache we are about to do is a members only cache, that means you can search for it and sign the log, but you won’t be able to log it on line”

“Oh, ok. Let’s go!”

Edited June 15, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+slumbersix]

They also get their funding from shirts, travel bugs, geocoin numbers, and everything else in their store.

 

So have you bought anything from the site?

 

Why yes, yes I have bought stuff from the site.

[+slumbersix]

Another benefit of my NOT logging online...

 

I know how to get the coords, etc...and I can go find the cache, sign the logbook, trade items and add it to my list of finds...

 

Nothing to delete online, so there's nothing the cache owner can do about it.

 

And you know 360, I have actually thought of starting to do that after seeing you and Dave do that. I mean, that would also help cut-down on all of GC.coms bandwidth and stuff (-;

 

But seriously, I'm heavily considering doing that as it would be something different. Kinda like letterboxing.

[+sbell111]

Just log the find as explained above. I seriously doubt the owner will care.

[+NeverSummer]

Just log the find as explained above. I seriously doubt the owner will care.

 

That would be a horrible assumption. I'm sure most would not object based on the circumstances of the poster, but there should be no "freebies" or "gimmies" when talking about someone's cache. If I had (as I'm sure I will eventually) a PMOC, I would not discriminate--but rather I would certainly appreciate being contacted by a non-member if they found it. Like I said above, there are certainly reasons why an owner chooses to have a cache be for Premiums only.

 

Is it that hard to be courteous these days?

[+welch]

Just log the find as explained above. I seriously doubt the owner will care.

 

That would be a horrible assumption. I'm sure most would not object based on the circumstances of the poster, but there should be no "freebies" or "gimmies" when talking about someone's cache. If I had (as I'm sure I will eventually) a PMOC, I would not discriminate--but rather I would certainly appreciate being contacted by a non-member if they found it. Like I said above, there are certainly reasons why an owner chooses to have a cache be for Premiums only.

 

Is it that hard to be courteous these days?

Those people that would object to the loophole should contact Groundspeak and complain. The loophole is known, has been pointed out several times, and has not been closed.

 

How is logging online, a cache you've already found not being courteous? Isn't logging online supposed to be a good thing, thanking the owner for their time, letting your fellow cachers the was there and well on a certain day? Whatever reason the owner had for making it a MOC has already been defeated/ignored/overcome by the time a non premium member finds the thing anyway.

[+NeverSummer]

 

Those people that would object to the loophole should contact Groundspeak and complain. The loophole is known, has been pointed out several times, and has not been closed.

 

How is logging online, a cache you've already found not being courteous? Isn't logging online supposed to be a good thing, thanking the owner for their time, letting your fellow cachers the was there and well on a certain day? Whatever reason the owner had for making it a MOC has already been defeated/ignored/overcome by the time a non premium member finds the thing anyway.

 

I see no reason to complain. All that I am saying is that I think it would be a nice, courteous idea to contact the owner about logging online. Again, the whole thing is that I know if I had a PMOC, I would not delete logs from or discriminate against non-premium members.

 

Yes, there are owners who likely don't give a dadgum. But there are also some that would get pissed and delete logs and complain vigorously to site operators. There are a vast majority that are laid back, appreciate the hunt, finding and logging of their caches, but would just like to know how, if, and why a cache they own, set up, maintain (and made a PMOC) had been thwarted.

 

Seems to me that in the spirit of caching as an open-access, family-friendly, all inclusive sport that some consideration of majority AND minority opinion with a courtesy email to the owner. Flame all you want, but it would make me wonder why anyone would be against courtesy and inclusion of all sides of the issue.

 

Groundspeak says this:

"Member Only Caches

Some caches are only available to Premium Members. This has been a request of many geocachers who want to put more energy into designing a cache for dedicated geocachers. As the cache owner, you can make any of your caches "subscriber only" so folks will need a subscription to seek it out. (Note: Member Only caches may not be any better than public geocaches. Each cache is managed by its cache owner.)"

 

So there is the "horrible assumption" I talk about above. "Each cache is managed by its cache owner." You can not make a blanket assumption that every PMOC has the "who cares" attitude about logging their cache if not a PM. Thus the courtesy.

Edited June 16, 2006 by NeverSummer

[+welch]

I see no reason to complain. All that I am saying is that I think it would be a nice, courteous idea to contact the owner about logging online. Again, the whole thing is that I know if I had a PMOC, I would not delete logs from or discriminate against non-premium members.

 

Yes, there are owners who likely don't give a dadgum. But there are also some that would get pissed and delete logs and complain vigorously to site operators. There are a vast majority that are laid back, appreciate the hunt, finding and logging of their caches, but would just like to know how, if, and why a cache they own, set up, maintain (and made a PMOC) had been thwarted.

 

Seems to me that in the spirit of caching as an open-access, family-friendly, all inclusive sport that some consideration of majority AND minority opinion with a courtesy email to the owner. Flame all you want, but it would make me wonder why anyone would be against courtesy and inclusion of all sides of the issue.

 

Groundspeak says this:

"Member Only Caches

Some caches are only available to Premium Members. This has been a request of many geocachers who want to put more energy into designing a cache for dedicated geocachers. As the cache owner, you can make any of your caches "subscriber only" so folks will need a subscription to seek it out. (Note: Member Only caches may not be any better than public geocaches. Each cache is managed by its cache owner.)"

 

So there is the "horrible assumption" I talk about above. "Each cache is managed by its cache owner." You can not make a blanket assumption that every PMOC has the "who cares" attitude about logging their cache if not a PM. Thus the courtesy.

 

Cachers owners always have the option to delete finds they do find valid.

Unless there are instructions about how to log or extra things to do when logging (virtuals for example), just log it like you would any other cache. I think the courteous think is to log online the caches you have found. Doing so without asking the the owner first is not be discourteous, I think cache owners tend to expect their cache will be logged without prior warning, as are the vast majority of caches.

 

It is the right of the owner to delete any such logs they do not see as valid. However, I think those people that object to nonPM logs, or to the loophole should contact Groundspeak and complain. The loophole is known, has been pointed out several times, and has not been closed. They should complain long and hard, and keep complaining until Groundspeak fixes that system that allows logs from people they didn't like. They should also complain that their cache, which was made a MOC by them for some reason, was so easy to 'thwart'.

 

Does the rest of the the page you quote from say anything directly about who can log them? It seems to just say its up to the owner, like it is on every cache. That seek part should really be corrected by Groundspeak, guess that needs to be added that to the complaint list.

[+Cardinal Red]

I read 1 post where the Owner indicated they would delete a find by a Non-Premium Member. I don't think that is a widespread viewpoint. My first hide was a MOC. Not because I wanted to, but because of security concerns at the time. Right on the Cache Page I encourage Premium Members to share the necessary logging information with their Non-Premium acquaintances.

 

At that time Cache Page coords were available to any anonymous web surfer. Now you at least have to create an account to see the Coords. I have a 3 year permit for that first hide. Next spring (halfway through the permit period) I will probably open it up to everyone. I have seen a MOC converted to Non-MOC disappear within two weeks. That might have been targeted at a specific individual. I'm not sure.

 

I have adopted 3 MOC Caches. Those will stay MOC because I only consider myself to be the caretaker. I would not change them without the original hiders blessing, and I'm not going to ask them about it. But I also will NOT delete any legitimate finds by anyone.

[+Poidawg]

I am a Premim Member. I own one cache - if figure that even though the cache is under a Premium Members only invitation to find, that someone without a Premium Membership might very well stumble onto it. They might even steal it...The reason I placed it on Premium membership was to try and limit the impact on the environment to being with. I may take it off PM in the future (if that is a legal thing to do).

The posibility of someone caching in a group with premium Members and logging their find does not bother me in the least. There is only so much a person can control anyway.

My 2 cents.

[+Velvet]

Got a question that would seem appropriate to ask here. As I'm not a premium member but often those I cache with are, this is something that I would like to gather opinions on.

 

Say you are not a premium member of GC.com and you're out with a group that has premium members. While out with them, you find a MO cache. Is it ok to log it under a different cache(archived or active and note it as a find for the MO caches that you had found) as you can't log it under the MO cache's page?

 

Please let the discussion begin!

 

We run into this a lot. In our household, we have two GC accounts because we cache seperately often. Only one of us is a premium member currently. When we cache together, if we find an MOC, I log it as a premium member and mention in the log that my other half was there with me and also signed the book. Most hiders in our area will then email me with permission for my other half to also log the find thru the backdoor. If they don't, he doesn't, and it's no biggie. His name is in the logbook and also on the page in my log, and we're not smilie-obsessed (both caching since '04 and still under 100 because we're picky, lol).

 

I think it all depends on why the hider made the cache MOC only in the first place. For someone who it's important that only people who support GC financially be able to log it, they would not be happy with someone logging thru the backdoor and we would respect that. It's more often the case around here that the hider makes a cache MOC to either a) control the geo-traffic or hide their caches from muggle/pirate problems in the area. Those owners are usually happy to let non-premium members who are accompanied by premium-ies log the cache and record their find.

 

I don't think it's ok to "replace" an MOC find with a log on an entirely different cache, active OR archived. Email the owner of the MOC and politely present your case if you really want the smilie, or else just let it go and remember the fun you had searching with your friends regardless of membership status. In either case, ask one of your friends who can see the page to mention you in their log, and that way the owner knows that you paid the cache a visit regardless of what s/he decides

[+Team Neos]

I am a Premim Member. I own one cache - if figure that even though the cache is under a Premium Members only invitation to find, that someone without a Premium Membership might very well stumble onto it. They might even steal it...The reason I placed it on Premium membership was to try and limit the impact on the environment to being with. I may take it off PM in the future (if that is a legal thing to do).

The posibility of someone caching in a group with premium Members and logging their find does not bother me in the least. There is only so much a person can control anyway.

My 2 cents.

You CAN change a PM cache to a normal cache any time.

 

A couple of people around here usually start their cahes out as PM caches and then after a couple of weeks they open it up to everyone. They don't do it to give paying members any special advantage over others members, though. They don't even particularly mind if a non-paying member finds the cache with a group during that time. They have the theory that new cachers usually take a few weeks to decide they want to become premium members, and that doing it that way makes sure that people that have found a few caches already are the first to try out the cache. They feel it gives them more accuarate feedback on new caches.

[+BadAndy]

Heres an analogy...

 

Say you are not a member of the country club and you're out with a group of golfers that are members. They invite you to golf with them for the weekend. On the second day, they take you onto their private course for a few holes and you manage to score a hole in one. Since your shot cannot be posted on the clubhouse scoreboard as you're not a member, would it be ok to post it on the scoreboard of the city golf course across town?

Edited June 22, 2006 by BadAndy

[+Team Neos]

Heres an analogy...

 

Say you are not a member of the country club and you're out with a group of golfers that are members. They invite you to golf with them for the weekend. On the second day, they take you onto their private course for a few holes and you manage to score a hole in one. Since your shot cannot be posted on the clubhouse scoreboard as you're not a member, would it be ok to post it on the scoreboard of the city golf course across town?

Hey Bad Andy, I know you were probably referring only to people who log a PMOC find to some "other" cache so they get the find count added to their score, but...

 

I'm not sure the analogy completely works for me.

 

I can agree that having a non-premium member along with premium member cachers at a PMOC is akin to a private club allowing the members to bring a guest.

 

The logging part fails in the anology for me, though. When I log a cache at gc, I am logging it to both my account and the the cache page; moreover, the cache page is just one small part of the overall gc system. None of us pay to be able to log caches at gc--that "privilege" is extended to everyone who has an account of any kind.

 

In the case of the golf club, the scoreboard belongs only to the club, but in geocaching, the log belongs to both the cache owner and the cacher. If the scoreboard at the private club was reporting the hole-in-one shots of all golfers in town, they would list yours too, member or not.

 

The intent of the PMOC was to hide the coords to the cache, not to prevent non-premium members from logging legitimate finds.

 

If the cacher found the PMOC with his PM buddies, do you really want to make someone feel badly by refusing them their log? If that idea doesn't disturb you, then I suppose the thing to do is to put a note on the cache page, saying that premium members may not bring non-premium members to your cache with them.

[+Renegade Knight]

Heres an analogy...

 

Say you are not a member of the country club and you're out with a group of golfers that are members. They invite you to golf with them for the weekend. On the second day, they take you onto their private course for a few holes and you manage to score a hole in one. Since your shot cannot be posted on the clubhouse scoreboard as you're not a member, would it be ok to post it on the scoreboard of the city golf course across town?

 

Dude, a hole in one at any club is something to brag about.

[+Renegade Knight]

MO Caches are viewable only by premium members. That's the only restriction and that restriction has no back door.

 

You can log them, you can find them with a premium member, you can view your own log but you can't see the cache page.

 

BadAndy. To take your anology to an absurd angle. Say you used to be a member of the club and when you were a member you made a hole in one. They post in on the board. Then you stop being a member. Do they take it down? No, you just can't get into the club house to have your picture taken by your achievment.

[4wheelin_fool]

You could make July your "Members Only" month. Pay $3 on July 1st and download all of the coords for the Members Only caches within 150 miles of your house. There could be close to a dozen, but you should be able to find them all within a week. Or, you could log them through the backdoor method by having a member e-mail each link to each Members Only log page, but then you would have to ask permission from each cache owner to log it online. I think it would be easier to just pay the $3.

[+finkbr]

I think the premium membersips are fine and dandy, its not much money and I like the extras. BUT in my case I have 2 sons that have decided that they like caching enough and wnat to log caches. Bit I don't want to pay the 30 a year for each of them as well. Since we usually cache together is seems that they should be able to log all finds that day. It gives them something cool to track. When it comes to all the extras you get with premium membership, I am the one who uses them, I am the one downloading all the gpx files etc... so I should pay for it.

 

My .02...

 

[+BlueDeuce]

I think the premium membersips are fine and dandy, its not much money and I like the extras. BUT in my case I have 2 sons that have decided that they like caching enough and wnat to log caches. Bit I don't want to pay the 30 a year for each of them as well. Since we usually cache together is seems that they should be able to log all finds that day. It gives them something cool to track. When it comes to all the extras you get with premium membership, I am the one who uses them, I am the one downloading all the gpx files etc... so I should pay for it.

 

My .02...

 

 

A. My child only Finds MOCs because I, a premium member, gave her the information.

 

B. If she wants to track these finds, she will need to become a PM.

 

Yes, I understand the arguments against MOCs, but they are not inhuman caches

 

Members only is rule, not a concept.

[+powercatjeffy]

 

As for me not having a premium member account, there's plenty of reasons for that.

 

1. Not enough member only caches in my area to even bother with it

2. It creates a sense of elitism among geocachers "Oh, I'm a premium member, you're not, oh... Too bad for you"

3. Don't do paper caching

4. Geocaching wasn't created to be commercial in nature and that's what its evolving into.

 

One word...

 

"Pocket Queries"

 

Oh wait....

[+Team Neos]

A. My child only Finds MOCs because I, a premium member, gave her the information.

 

B. If she wants to track these finds, she will need to become a PM.

 

Yes, I understand the arguments against MOCs, but they are not inhuman caches

 

Members only is rule, not a concept.

I don't follow your logic. If you don't think your non-PM child should log the PM caches, why do you tell her where they are? Seems to me if you really took the hard line, you would insist that she not even be allowed to know where they are.

 

Premium members only caches are a listing option, not a rule or a concept.

[+Nero]

Pony Up or Quit complaining.

 

That being said, as a cache owner I would not be upset about someone using the "loophole" to log MY cache if they were not PM, I am more irritated by people who dont log a find, because at least when i get the owner notification i can say okay my cache is still there.

[+BlueDeuce]

A. My child only Finds MOCs because I, a premium member, gave her the information.

 

B. If she wants to track these finds, she will need to become a PM.

 

Yes, I understand the arguments against MOCs, but they are not inhuman caches

 

Members only is rule, not a concept.

I don't follow your logic. If you don't think your non-PM child should log the PM caches, why do you tell her where they are? Seems to me if you really took the hard line, you would insist that she not even be allowed to know where they are.

 

Premium members only caches are a listing option, not a rule or a concept.

 

 

Sorry yes I mis-spoke. In practice I don't give the information to her or anyone else. She's just along for the ride then it comes to MOCs. I was attempting to point out the non PM cacher first had to get the information through hook or crook and also to log it on-line. GC.com could close the backdoor logging ability but MOC is not just a listing option it's also a logging feature provided to me as a Paying Member. Or at least it's supposed to be.

[+Team Neos]

Pony Up or Quit complaining.

 

Was that aimed at me? I have a premium membership, thanks!

 

I love it. I chose it for the ability to run PQs. That has made my life sooooo much easier. As for PMOC, there are only four within 100 miles of me. With over 2000 caches within 10 miles of me, I wasn't too worried about those PM caches.

 

I wouldn't become a PM just to be able to exclude others from logging my caches, either.

 

I'm with you Nero. A non-PM cannot see the cache coordinates and most likely won't find the cache without a PM. If they actually find the cache, and sign the log, they ought to get to log it. I personally haven't ever felt the need to create a PM cache. If I ever do, I certainly won't care if a non-PM finds it with their PM friend or family member and logs it. I certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience the PM by expecting them not to take the non-PM to my cache.