60csx Waas Question

[chetwynd]

Now that I've had my 60csx for a few days and got the screenshot thing going, thought I'd share my signal.

 

This is indoors, about 6 feet from a sliding glass door facing south in the SF Bay Area.

 

[+drbugs]

has anyone got waas corrections running 2.62? I've gotten it with 2.60, but never with 2.62. I still see 35, but in the SE, not the SW (I'm in minneapolis).

[NewZealand]

To all people having WAAS problems, some hints, beginning with the obvious, ending with the less obvious:

 

.) Unit is configured "WAAS enabled" ?

.) Unit is in "Normal mode", not in "batterysave" mode ?

.) Unit has free sight to at least one WAAS/EGNOS Satellite ?

 

First check this page (in the middle) to see if the below mentioned satellites are above the horizon from your location:

http://gpsinformation.net/exe/waas.html.

It has links to sites, where the satellite positions are updated every 15 seconds, and where you can click on the map, to see if the satellite is above the horizon from your position. Remember the value in degrees for the elevation above the horizon of each available satellite.

 

For the satellites which remain from the above check, do the following:

Enter their positions on your unit and use the bearing to see if you have access to a WAAS satellite, and that they are not behind a mountain, house or tree, depending on the above mentioned elevation:

 

35 is at Lat 0 and Lon 142 West

47 is at Lat 0 and Lon 178 East

33 is at Lat 0 Lon 15.5 West

48 is at Lat 0 Lon 133 West

38 is at Lat 0 Lon 107.3 West

34 is at Lat 0 Lon 53 West

39 is at Lat 0 Lon 64 East

 

However, the US satellites are moving and being replaced simultaneously.

You can now see WAAS satellites at 35, 38, 47, and 48 depending on where you live and

what tests are being performed.

Expect this to settle down in September of 2006.

 

.) At the first try make sure that the unit loads the complete WAAS almanac. This can take approx. 5 minutes, and if you lose the signal at the wrong moment for a few seconds, it will take another 5 minutes, and so on.

.) I strongly recommend to read this page and use the recommendations there to get a good WAAS/EGNOS reception:

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm#waasalmanac

 

For latest information (especially for US eastcoast users) I recommend this:

http://gps.faa.gov/programs/waas/non-aviationUsers-text.htm

 

and these are also interesting:

http://gps.faa.gov/programs/waas/for_pilots.htm

http://gps.faa.gov/programs/waas/currentnews-text.htm

Edited April 18, 2006 by NewZealand

[AKDub]

"WAAS-capable" and "WAAS-enabled" are two different terms...

 

Garmins website says "WAAS-capable"....

 

Look closer at the top of the page. The first blue-shaded icon says "WAAS Enabled". Also, look at the box, same thing. Garmin is marketing this as a WAAS enabled receiver.

 

It's like buying a car in a cold climate- the sticker says it has AC and all the documentation hints at it as well (e.g. - There's a section in the manual about how to turn on the AC and how to properly use it, as well as a section in the back that mentions the impact of how AC affects performance and so on and so forth..) Well, you order the car, pay the man at the dealer, take it home and find out that the AC isn't actually installed, but when you call the dealer back, they say "You live in a cold climate, you don't need AC, just roll down your windows.."

 

That would be a big hit..

[capt caper]

I would think if it says WAAS enable or disable in the menu of the CSX it means it has WAAS. It's just that the birds are being moved and some folks depending on were they are find it hard to lock in to them. Before the move they still had problems locking into them like I did cause it was so low on the horizon here in the NE. My old 76S jammed up building an almanac for the WAAS cause I didn't have a clear view and I had to do a hard reset and start fresh with a clear view for 30 min. or so.

 

Capt.

Edited April 17, 2006 by capt caper

[planewood]

#34, 35, 38, & 48 should be visible to me here on the west side of Houston TX, but 35 is the only one showing up. It's showing as a hollow bar and my 60cx is not displaying "D's". I suspect that it is using the correction data from 35 however. 35 is still showing for me in the ESE position at about mid-horizon. But, if I block the SW part of the sky from the unit, 35 goes away or the reception diminishes.

 

Like you said, 34, 38, & 48 should start showing sometimes later this year.

[moonpup]

#34, 35, 38, & 48 should be visible to me here on the west side of Houston TX, but 35 is the only one showing up. It's showing as a hollow bar and my 60cx is not displaying "D's". I suspect that it is using the correction data from 35 however. 35 is still showing for me in the ESE position at about mid-horizon. But, if I block the SW part of the sky from the unit, 35 goes away or the reception diminishes.

 

Like you said, 34, 38, & 48 should start showing sometimes later this year.

 

Since #35 is moving west and I only sporadically pick it up here in Massachusetts, what WAAS satellite(s) will now be covering the east coast?

[+GOT GPS?]

I think that WAAS should not be depended on until at least October 2006, because of the FAA, and I don't know of a single WAAS satellite that can be used on the mainland USA for landing a comercial aircraft until then anyway, so I believe the satellites are in a test phase and not really useful until the fall of 2006.

 

I seen the WANDERING mentioned again in this thread, and I can say that the person or persons, may not be holding the GPS close to vertical, since I see alot of people holding their GPS more flat. I never had too much trouble in the woods with my older 60C either, since I always tried to carry it vertical 5 feet off the ground.

 

Im going to keep WAAS turned OFF on my SporTrak Color and 60Cx, until the FAA gets their act together, and gets the WAAS system up 24/7, instead of being available intermittently.

 

This is just my educated GUESS.

[+EraSeek]

This is the current WAAS coverage area for all the US corrections, both clock/ephemris and ionosphere. This is specfically the boundaries of the US ionosphere corrections. http://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/vpl.html

 

As you can see the East coast will not get the ionosphere corrections right now (till fall), which are the single largest corrections. You can get clock/ephemeris corrections from the EGNOS sat #33, which together equal the amount of error fo what you may get with an active ionosphere.

 

#35 and #47 ARE the ONLY active WAAS sats right now. All others are in testing. #35 is hollow bar because it is moving ( so cannot itself be use for position) BUT it is still broadcasting WAAS corrections.

 

Some new unit with the new chip are having problems with WAAS but Garmin should have a fix for that a some point.

 

New Zealander, I believe you are incorrect in your statment about the alamanac.

The full alamanac takes about 12 mins to load. Every 12 mins it loads again. If you lose signal during loading it does not forget what it loaded. It just picks up wherever it is in the process again. The time it takes to obtain differential position depends on what part of the almanac you are loading. It may pop right up with D's or it may take a bit.

 

Ionospheric correction are somewhat long term as are Ephemeris correction. Clock corrections are short term. Clock/ Ephemeris corrections are bundled together. Ionospheric corrections are bundled seperately. You get D's when all needed corrections are in place and applied (or ignored with the EGNOS ionosphere correction). Garmins seem to lose the D's when the clock corrections are no longer current. Garmins will still apply the Ionosphere corrections after you lose the WAAS sat for 2 mins, but you will not see any indication of it. Magellens will use them much longer.

 

At some point there will be 4 WAAS sats covering the US. 2 now, one in the fall, and I don't know when the other is suppose to be active, but I think someitme in fall or shortly after.

[+PeoriaBill]

I wondered about this feature and now I know why I couldn't get a WAAS satellite. I have used both 60CS, 76CS and now 76CSx. I have noted a lot more bars showing up, but no improvment in accuracyor ability to maintain a signal under cover. Maybe be a marketing hype that new and different equals better. I just have not seen it.

[NewZealand]

New Zealander, I believe you are incorrect in your statment about the alamanac.

The full alamanac takes about 12 mins to load. Every 12 mins it loads again. If you lose signal during loading it does not forget what it loaded. It just picks up wherever it is in the process again. The time it takes to obtain differential position depends on what part of the almanac you are loading. It may pop right up with D's or it may take a bit.

Maybe I'm wrong, because I have this info from the link I mentioned:

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm#waasalmanac

I try to gather as much info as possible, both your info and also that from this website sounds reasonable.

 

Ionospheric correction are somewhat long term as are Ephemeris correction. Clock corrections are short term. Clock/ Ephemeris corrections are bundled together. Ionospheric corrections are bundled seperately. You get D's when all needed corrections are in place and applied (or ignored with the EGNOS ionosphere correction).

What do you mean with ignored?

At my current location I get the EGNOS signal from 33, but it does not change the EPE value at the satellite display. I couldn't check until now if the position is better while showing the D's, but it looks like if the EGNOS data are not used at the moment by Garmin to get a better position.

Edited April 17, 2006 by NewZealand

[+EraSeek]

New Zealander, I believe you are incorrect in your statment about the alamanac.

The full alamanac takes about 12 mins to load. Every 12 mins it loads again. If you lose signal during loading it does not forget what it loaded. It just picks up wherever it is in the process again. The time it takes to obtain differential position depends on what part of the almanac you are loading. It may pop right up with D's or it may take a bit.

Maybe I'm wrong, because I have this info from the link I mentioned:

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm#waasalmanac

I try to gather as much info as possible, both your info and also that from this website sounds reasonable.

 

Ionospheric correction are somewhat long term as are Ephemeris correction. Clock corrections are short term. Clock/ Ephemeris corrections are bundled together. Ionospheric corrections are bundled seperately. You get D's when all needed corrections are in place and applied (or ignored with the EGNOS ionosphere correction).

What do you mean with ignored?

At my current location I get the EGNOS signal from 33, but it does not change the EPE value at the satellite display. I couldn't check until now if the position is better while showing the D's, but it looks like if the EGNOS data are not used at the moment by Garmin to get a better position.

 

Perhaps we are both right. In the past the upload time of the alamanac was 12minutes. There have been some recent upgrades in the system and the 5 mins may be part of that upgrade. All the better. However, the need to wait the full cycle should still not hold true, just as losing a signal means losing all the alamanac should still not be true. You donot have to start over every time you lose the signal. You still have some of the alamanac in the GPS. Depending on what you have captured and what is needed to impliment a WAAS fix determines how quick it will lock.

 

As to #33 egnos sat data, what I am saying and has been stated by a Garmin tech as well is that if you are in the US WAAS area you can pick up the corrections from the Egnos sat, achieve "D's", but it will ignore the EGNOS ionosphere corrections because they are flagged by garmin as unusable in the US. It appears that you may be able to use the Clock/Position corrections because those are satelitte specific, (unlike the ionospheric data which is user position specific), and should be usable anywhere.

 

Remember that any corrections, whether ionosphere or clock/position, are only going to make a noticable difference if there are significant corrections that need to be made. ie, at night there should be little or no needed ionospheric corrections.

 

By the way, I am no expert. I am always learning and willing to learn.

[+GPSlug]

The GPS almanac is spread over 12.5 minutes.

 

The WAAS almanac is a single one-second message (or two messages if there are more than 3 satellites) that's repeated at least every 5 minutes.

[AKDub]

Ok, so I just got off the phone with a much more reasonable rep from Garmin. Apparently Garmin is aware of the problem and is working on the issue:

 

I was able to gather further information in regards to SiRF and WAAS. The short story regarding these two features is that currently with satellite 35 moving and not outputting ephemeris data all WAAS users across the nation will see a hollow status bar, even when receiving differential corrections. Satellite 35 will actually be moving so far West the Northeast may no longer be able to utilize it due to its being very low in elevation. Recent changes to the configuration of the WAAS satellite constellation has brought to light issues with WAAS enabled SiRF devices. We are working with SiRF such that we may offer a firmware update that will improve upon the units ability to utilize the benefits of WAAS.

 

I was able to get a lock in PRN-33 this weekend (it's INMARSAT's Atlantic Ocean Region East bird - located more or less over the West Coast of Africa) with my 60csx.

 

Personally, now knowing that Garmin is working the issue, I'm willing to relax a little more. The gentleman that I spoke with this afternoon was infinately more helpful, and didn't offer a snap-reflex stock answer. For now, with a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel, I plan on waiting out the move and the PAN-AM sat coming back online this fall..

 

I was also assured that the tech reps would be providing a more unified front with the answers to our questions.

 

Thanks, Jeff (apparently they do read the forums...)

 

Ben

[+EraSeek]

The WAAS almanac is a single one-second message (or two messages if there are more than 3 satellites) that's repeated at least every 5 minutes.

 

? Where did you get this from? Your not confusing WAAS with broadcast DGPS are you?

[+EraSeek]

GPSlug, looking at your profile and posts I take it you know what you are talking about. Is there a link you could point me to to learn more about the WAAS almanac?

[+GPSlug]

The WAAS almanac is a single one-second message (or two messages if there are more than 3 satellites) that's repeated at least every 5 minutes.

 

? Where did you get this from? Your not confusing WAAS with broadcast DGPS are you?

Oops, forgot this ...

 

References:

RTCA DO-229C, "Minimum Operational Performance Standards for Global Positioning System/Wide Area Augmentation System Airborne Equipment", Appendix A, Wide Area Augmentation System System Signal Specification, Table A-25: Message Content Broadcast Intervals

[+EraSeek]

Ouch! Guess your kind of knowledge comes with a price$$$

 

Anyway, feel free to correct me anytime you please. I'd love to get it right(er)

[+GPSlug]

GPSlug, looking at your profile and posts I take it you know what you are talking about. Is there a link you could point me to to learn more about the WAAS almanac?

The link is in my previous post. As you can see, it's an expensive copyrighted document. But basically the type 17 message has the health/status, rough xyz position, rough xyz velocity, and time of applicability for those values for up to three GEOs.

[+EraSeek]

My apologies to NewZealand. Guess I had my GPS almanac mixed up with my WAAS almanac.

[yeeoldcacher]

Ok, so I just got off the phone with a much more reasonable rep from Garmin. Apparently Garmin is aware of the problem and is working on the issue:

 

I was able to gather further information in regards to SiRF and WAAS. The short story regarding these two features is that currently with satellite 35 moving and not outputting ephemeris data all WAAS users across the nation will see a hollow status bar, even when receiving differential corrections. Satellite 35 will actually be moving so far West the Northeast may no longer be able to utilize it due to its being very low in elevation. Recent changes to the configuration of the WAAS satellite constellation has brought to light issues with WAAS enabled SiRF devices. We are working with SiRF such that we may offer a firmware update that will improve upon the units ability to utilize the benefits of WAAS.

 

I was able to get a lock in PRN-33 this weekend (it's INMARSAT's Atlantic Ocean Region East bird - located more or less over the West Coast of Africa) with my 60csx.

 

Personally, now knowing that Garmin is working the issue, I'm willing to relax a little more. The gentleman that I spoke with this afternoon was infinately more helpful, and didn't offer a snap-reflex stock answer. For now, with a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel, I plan on waiting out the move and the PAN-AM sat coming back online this fall..

 

I was also assured that the tech reps would be providing a more unified front with the answers to our questions.

 

Thanks, Jeff (apparently they do read the forums...)

 

Ben

 

Wow, that's a relief, I thought Garmin would have the WAAS satellites moving all over the place permanently so that it never worked for the gps' again!

[+limp and saw mill]

After reading all this I am glad I am a cheap skate and just spent the $150 for the GPS 60. It is soooo much better than my old GPS 12. It doesn't really hold a lock any better but the processor seems to be miles ahead of the old 12.

Edited April 18, 2006 by limp and saw mill

[NewZealand]

What do you mean with ignored?

At my current location I get the EGNOS signal from 33, but it does not change the EPE value at the satellite display. I couldn't check until now if the position is better while showing the D's, but it looks like if the EGNOS data are not used at the moment by Garmin to get a better position.

I should mention that I'm currently in Europe and still get a hollow bar for 33 and no real corrections (at least it looks like, though there are the D's on the bars).

So it seems, also EGNOS data are currently not used. Possibly Garmin waits to settle the mentioned issues with SIRF.

I'm only checking this because of my interest, I do not need WAAS/EGNOS.

My csx already has great accuracy outdoors, and I use it usually with batterysave mode, because in the mountains I nearly never can see a WAAS/EGNOS satellite.

However, great infos and discussions, thanks.

Edited April 18, 2006 by NewZealand

[+CiscoHiker]

I flew from Veracruz Mexico via Houston and then on to San Francisco with my 60CSx turned on during the portion of the trip that I was awake. In Veracruz sat 35 is a hollow bar to the east and I did not get any Ds. Also used my unit in El Paso Texas last week and did not get any WAAS birds there. On the flight today I did not get any WAAS birds until around Las Vegas where I picked up sat 47 and started getting Ds and now near SF I can get Sat 47 (as a hollow bar) and I do get D's.

 

I also noticed that the 60CSx lost the sats when I put it away from the window and once it had lots them that it was never able to re-aquire (which is the tunnel issue often mentioned here). During the flight when the unit was off for some time and then turned on in a new location it does take some time to re-aquire the sats as the unit seems to search for the last sats it has in its memory.

 

Im running the 2.60 software version.

 

One other note from the trip is that in Houston in the airport I was not able to ever get a sat lock after trying multiple windows and restarting the unit.

[+rstickle]

One other note from the trip is that in Houston in the airport I was not able to ever get a sat lock after trying multiple windows and restarting the unit.

 

A lot of the thermal coating they use on building windows really interfere with any kind of electronic signals.

 

At work I can get a strong cell signal right outside my office window, but almost nothing right inside, a matter of a couple feet.

 

Rick

[German Cowboy]

I just received my new Garmin 60csx. I live in the Indianapolis, Indiana area and the WAAS satellite that can be tracked in this area is #35. I noticed that when I enabled WAAS and go to the satellite page, #35 blinks off and on and the signal bar is hollow. I also don't see "d" in any of the signal bars. Should this be happening? Am I in WAAS mode?

 

I also own a Nuvi 350 and I get the same condition....blinking #35 and no "d" in any of the signal bars. Thanks.

 

I just came back from a trip to Germany. Over there I saw the "D's" for the first time on my 60cx. The WAAS Satellite was 33 with a hollow bar. On my Garmin 2610 the bar was solid. I never got D's here in Texas. I see Satellit 35 with a hollow bar.

[TracknQ]

I'm a newbie. I found the following links very helpful (especially the explanations of how to get a Garmin GPSr to lock onto WAAS satellites):

 

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm

 

http://gpsinformation.net/waas/acquire-waas-a.html

 

http://gpsinformation.net/waasgps.htm

 

http://gpsinformation.net/exe/waas.html

 

The rest of you folks in this thread probably already know all this stuff.

 

TracknQ

[+Team BlackZ]

I'm in Virginia and I get SAT 48 with just the hollow bar on my 60CS. Still get Waas Corrections (D) on a nice clear day. Waas seems to go in and out more often now, at least it seems that way.

[+Red90]

I just got a 60Cx. I'm at N51, W114.

 

1) It picks up 47 similar to my other Garmin units. Weak and intermittent, but will provide Ds if I hold it long enough.

 

2) When the unit is first turned on, it only picks up 35 intermittently and weakly. If I stop and let it hold 35 for enough time to get all the Ds, it will then hold 35 strongly with full Ds until it is turned off again. There seems to be a problem working with 35 until its almanic is loaded, but after, it holds it normally like my other Garmin units.

 

3) The external Gilsson provides maybe 25% stronger signals than the internal. It will be full strength on all 12 channels most of the time when hooked up to it. 2 meters accuracy displayed with WAAS.

[Mimo1]

I've been getting D's with WAAS with my 60CSx ever since I got it 2 weeks ago. I've updated to firmware to 2.60. I'm in Utah, further west than most posters.

 

I usually get Satellite 35 but often get 47. But, never both at once. The GPSr will switch between them as I move around. The attached pictures were taken from inside my house near a west facing window this morning. Near the window I get Satellite 35 as I move away I get WAAS corrections from 47. I cannot tell if WAAS improves the accuracy. Turning WAAS on or off doesn’t change the reported accuracy, maybe I need to give it more time. I also am not seeing a benefit of WAAS with my Etrex Vista. Until 35 was moved I could only rarely get 47 on the Vista, now I do get 35. The 60CSx clearly has better reception for both GPS and WAAS.

 

...

 

Just a technical question about your GPS display image capture. How do you do that?

 

Thanks

[TracknQ]

Just a technical question about your GPS display image capture. How do you do that?

 

Thanks

 

Mimo 1,

 

Go to http://www.garmin.com/support/collection.j...ct=010-00422-00 and download xImage Ver. 2.3. Install the xImage program on your PC. Connect your GPS receiver device to your PC via the supplied USB cable. Start the xImage program and follow the prompts to save a screen shot (in .bmp format) from your device to a folder on your PC.

 

Enjoy!

 

TracknQ

[Mimo1]

Just a technical question about your GPS display image capture. How do you do that?

 

Thanks

 

Mimo 1,

 

Go to http://www.garmin.com/support/collection.j...ct=010-00422-00 and download xImage Ver. 2.3. Install the xImage program on your PC. Connect your GPS receiver device to your PC via the supplied USB cable. Start the xImage program and follow the prompts to save a screen shot (in .bmp format) from your device to a folder on your PC.

 

Enjoy!

 

TracknQ

 

TracknQ,

 

Thank you very much for your fast response.

 

Best regards

 

Mimo 1