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Red Dragon 109

Question For The Geocaching Vets

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After what I have witnessed on other forum topics I am sure this is a bad idea............however I will ask this question anyway.

 

I have been asked not to hunt one cache owners caches due to "my blatant disregard for the "rules" about hunting his caches at night. I will admitt that I purposfully hunted the cache at night to make a point and bring attention to this issue. The cache page states that "you will be arrested if you are found in a cemetary at night". I am in the Criminal Justice field and have attempted to find such a law and have been unsuccesful. It appears that the cache owner has decided to forbid the hunting of his caches at night in the interest of "the sport". However he is using his influence as a well known cacher in my area to manipulate the sport to his liking using untrue statements and scare tatics. I understand the cache owner sets the boundaries of his cache and I can respect that. It was improper for me to call attention to this issue the manner in which I did. However, I want to know about the conduct of cache owners who try to interpret the sport the way they feel it should be played and who use their thunder to control others. Additionally this cache owner has 400+ hides and many of which are in need of maintenance. Casting stones in a glass house if you ask me. If I spend hours in the forums spouting fancy talk about the honor of geocaching and riding the coatails of respectable people from history, will that give me the ability to mold the sport the way I think it should be played? Numbers don't make the cacher in my book. I use this as an avenue to enjoy time spent with friends and as a means of getting out with a purpose. I think it will be very interesting to see what conversation this brings. :D

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The issue is that the many outsiders view our activities with grave suspicion. We romp all over with our little GPSrs, our PDAs and our ditty bags full of golf balls and spider rings and it looks a tad creepy to some folks.

 

The cemetery caches are especially sensitive areas as some folks worry that we're there to dig up Uncle Rufus or peeing on Great Gramma Gertrude's grave.

 

The policy of doing the cemetery caches only in daylight hours are to try and avoid the situation that cropped up in other states that has led to caching being banned in many areas. We as cachers have an obligation to bend over backwards and be extra-good Gallants at all time to keep the folks from taking too much notice of our activities.

 

Keep in mind: What we are doing is basically an act of controlled littering. When we place a cache on public land we are littering... we just tend to have others come back and check out our litter on a regular basis.

 

The other issues were not germane to the discussion and need not be addressed.

 

Would you like a bagel? ... I'll buy.

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Did you check out trespassing laws? I know that many cemeteries are private property and you can be arrested for trespassing after hours. If the cache owner worked to get permission and was told that trespassing charges would be filed if cachers found the cache after dark he would be correct.

 

It seems to me that you overstepped your bounds and abused your position as a member of the Criminal Justice field.

 

Of course this is just my opinion gleaned from a one sided view of the situation so it doesn't merit any real scrutiny.

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I think what Red Dragon meant was why not just ask people not to hunt these caches at night instead of threatening a law violation which does not exist. I know I would respect the wishes of the cache owner but threats do little for me. This is just a game.

 

Some people, me including, love to hunt caches at night. I always abide by posted rules, hours of operation, etc. That comes with being a responsible adult and has little to do with geocaching. Some cemeteries don't allow people after dusk and some do.....that's a fact. I have a cache near Shannon Hoon's grave, he was a semi famous musician, anyway his mother has an all night vigil in the cemetery once a year. To my knowledge she has yet to be arrested.

 

Not to mention the apparent "bullying" that goes on by some cache owners on their cache listings as well as in the forums. Some cachers can get away with stuff like that and others can't. In my opinion that is what is damaging to the sport. I once started a thread that was shut down by a moderator for not being about geocaching. If this moderator would read through the "Indiana Cachers" thread surely he would see that this is just a place that 4 or 5 cachers chit chat and has little to do with geocaching. Rules suck and we don't need anymore but maybe it's time Groundspeak stepped in and examined some of these cachers.

 

Just my two cents

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I'm not personally familiar with tresspass laws in Indiana, and will defer to those in the criminal justice system. As was previously stated, most of these caches are located on land that is not publicly owned and most of the ones with any signage state that they are not accessable during certain hours. Anyone seeing suspicious activity in these locations would just be doing their civic duty to contact law enforcement personnel, especially in these sensitive time we live in where less than honorable persons are known to commit serious acts of aggression against the free world.

As was also stated, there are members of the general public who feel that our little game is not something that should be played without some restrictions as to locations, content and accessability. While we may not agree with their actions or their opinions, we are placed in the position of having to act in an responsible manner to demonstrate that we can and will co-operate with land managers and various forms of government.

In regards to these statements made by a cache owner concerning the legality of night caching, I'd appreciate it if you could kindly provide us with an example as I'm not able to locate the cache in question.

One last point, if a member of the community has any concerns about the content or conduct of others in the forums or feels that they have been dealt with in an inappropriate manner by the forum moderators, there a system of redress available to them.

 

Wulf

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In regards to these statements made by a cache owner concerning the legality of night caching, I'd appreciate it if you could kindly provide us with an example as I'm not able to locate the cache in question.

 

ISQ #432

 

FIND LOGS ON THIS CACHE THAT INDICATE NIGHT CACHING WILL BE DELETED WITHOUT NOTICE!!

 

DESPITE WHAT SOME NON-ISQ CEMETERY CACHE PAGES MAY SAY, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO ARREST IF FOUND IN A CEMETERY AT NIGHT IN INDIANA IN MOST ALL JURISDICTIONS.

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So Red Dragon made his point by searching at night and finding it.

There are people who feel that rules are made to be broken and go ahead and break them. The sad part is that their actions can negatively affect the people who follow the rules.

If you want to make a point, wrap a towel around your head and sneak onto a military base at night with your GPS in your hand. Tell them that your tax dollars support the base and that you have a right to be there.

 

P.S. Most cemetaries around here have gates, signs or both telling people to stay out at night. To me it's just a matter of respect for the dead.

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First.......here is a quote from the cache page where my log was deleted.

 

"DESPITE WHAT SOME NON-ISQ CEMETERY CACHE PAGES MAY SAY, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO ARREST IF FOUND IN A CEMETERY AT NIGHT IN INDIANA IN MOST ALL JURISDICTIONS."

 

Wow.....I guess I have really stepped off in it now. I expected some adverse view points but I guess I assumed too much. I would like when you read this post I am making now....that you read it with the intent in which it is written. 80% of all communication is non-verbal and since you cannot hear my voice inflextion and tone you the reader have to apply your own which can change the meaning. I am writting this in a calm and intellectual fasion. That having been said.........

 

I listed my occupation so that the readers of this posting would know that I am someone that knows a little about the subject at hand. I in no way have abused my position as a Criminal Justice Professional. There is no indication on the cache page that it is on private property and the site (both internet and physical) has no posting of hours of operation. I assumed that I would be given the courtesy of being seen as an intelligent individual who has already considered the factors listed above. I did enjoy the view point that what we do is controlled littering. Never thought of it that way. My focus of my discussion was about the cache owner and his use of scare tactics and prominence in the caching community. I felt he was interpreting the game to his opinions. Truth be told he would never know what time of day I hunt his caches if I didn't tell him. I understand the issue of private property and hours of operation. As a matter of fact the persons in Indiana who own personal property with a cemetery on it are required to allow some access to the public so that I may pay respects to great great grandmama. I would like to refocus the issue of why I asked the question. Why are some people allowed to intimidate to control the sport. As I stated in my original posting I will honor the cache owners request.........I will also call bull when I see it. You should also know that I attempted to converse with the cache owner about this issue via e-mail and was denied any responses.

 

As far as seeming a bit mischevious or creepy to the public or law enforcement........I have been stopped by law enforcement on numerous occasions and after a brief explaination of the sport and an example of what I am doing I have been left to my quest with a smile and a handshake. I would like to think I have actually introduced some new members to through this interaction. I am a polite and respectfull individual. I would like to think I do not offend anyone in the manner I hunt caches. That is due to my attention and care in my interactions with other outside of this sport. I hope this makes my original post a little more clear....however please speak your mind. :D

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I can't even get my thoughts out before I am accussed of disrespecting the dead and the military. This cemetery has neither a sign or a gate. My point was to the cache owner and I have not harmed anything, damaged the sport, defaced property nor disrespected the dead. What does time of day have to do with respect? I was told by a fellow cacher that posting in the forums was dangerous business and that I would not have enough clout to not be attacked. He was right. I guess I owe him that beer we bet. :D

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My opinion, for what it's worth, is that regardless of whether or not there is an applicable law, a cache owner has the right to list a restrictive requirement on his/her cache, as long as that requirement in itself does not fall afoul of the law. The cache page in question, along with all other ISQ pages that I have seen, contains the following statement:

 

"FIND LOGS ON THIS CACHE THAT INDICATE NIGHT CACHING WILL BE DELETED WITHOUT NOTICE!!"

 

Whether or not you can or should be there after dark, the cache owner has clearly stated the requirements for logging his cache. You chose to ignore them and the cache owner did what his statement promised he would do.

 

JMHO

YMMV

 

Mrs. Car54

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First.......here is a quote from the cache page where my log was deleted.

 

"DESPITE WHAT SOME NON-ISQ CEMETERY CACHE PAGES MAY SAY, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO ARREST IF FOUND IN A CEMETERY AT NIGHT IN INDIANA IN MOST ALL JURISDICTIONS."

 

 

Think someone is confused!!! It is NOT illeagal to be in a cemetery at night except where it is posted at cemetery or prohibited by law. But I think the intention is: We (as cachers) DO NOT want the same problems that they are having in S. Carolina because someone misinterpited (sp?) what was written on cache pages and logs.

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Excellent point Car54 but I think you may have missed the point. RedDragon chose to violate the cache owners rule to make a point about the made up law violation that was threatened. Was he wrong in doing so????yes, we all do stupid things from time to time. Does anybody reading this thread understand why he did what he did??? Who knows. But I don't think he questioning the fact that his log/find was deleted.

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Exactly GM........

 

I do not question the deletion. I do not question the cache owner's right to restrict his cache. I question his methods. Yes, the cache page says they will delete any logs that say you were there at night. Why not stop there? It also says it is illegal. That is the statement I was addressing. My original intention was to spark a conversation with the cache owner only, by logging his cache knowing he would see it. The cache owner sent me one nasty gram and since refuses any communication even though I have attempted to discuss this with him in the same respectfull manner I am doing here. If my comments don't seem respectful please understand they are intended to be. Car54 is absolutely correct. I support the cache owner's rights to their cache 100%. I admitt I should have attempted a different approach. I will never pull this stunt again. With the fact that noone seems to be interested in the original issue I will probably never ask the geocaching community for advice again. My entering a cemetery in the dark without defacing any property or violating any laws posted or otherwise is not going to endanger the sport of geocaching in the state of Indiana. Am I being too presumptious....maybe so. I will go back to my lair and continue to enjoy my time with this sport and I will watch quitely while others intimidate and control with falsehoods. :D

 

My apologies to those I have offended. Enjoy your sport and check your log books.........my name will be in them.

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As a local Cemetery Trustee and local historian, it is just considered BAD FORM to enter cemeteries after dusk, regardless of what the local statutes or county ordinances have to say about legal hours of access.

 

Indiana State Code does give the local jurisdiction authority to impose a curfew for the purposes of visiting a cemetery, most jurisdictions say "Dawn to Dusk", whether posted or NOT.

 

It is commonly accepted by those of us who are "headstone hunters", geneologists, and local county and cemetery historians; that one does not enter a cemetery after DUSK, "my granny used to say is was very disrespectful to be in a cemetery after sunset'.

-----

INDIANA CODE:

IC 23-14-32-1

Curfews to memorialize the dead

23-14-32-1 Sec. 1. A county, city, or town may impose a curfew specific to cemeteries or other facilities used to memorialize the dead under IC 31-37-3-5.

As added by P.L.103-1996, SEC.3. Amended by P.L.1-1997, SEC.108.

-----

 

With regard to cemeteries, the State of Indiana appears to regard their

protection as a significant matter in that the State of Indiana grants

the same powers as a Peace Officer to those who are placed in charge of running and securing cemetery property.

------

 

IC 23-14-46-6

Powers and duties of person in charge of cemetery

23-14-46-6 Sec. 6. The sexton, superintendent, manager, director, or other person in charge of a cemetery has the same powers, functions, duties, and authority granted by law to a peace officer within the jurisdiction in which the cemetery is located for the purpose of:

(1) maintaining order; and

(2) enforcing:

(A) the rules and regulations of the cemetery;

(:D the laws of Indiana; and

© the ordinances of the city or town in which the cemetery is situated;

within the cemetery and within an area immediately outside the cemetery as large as necessary to protect the property of the cemetery.

As added by P.L.52-1997, SEC.20.

 

WIth respect to the Caches in question and the idea that this cache owner is using his "influence" to "manipulate the sport"

 

... well all I can say is "MORE POWER TO HIM". All you have to do is read the South Carolina forums to discover how sensitive the entire idea of placing cemetery caches is. Due to the perception of ONE (VERY FEW) Individuals the whole concept of GEOCACHING - went on trial - before the State Legislature in South Carolina this past year. All because it was "perceived" that GEOCACHERS were "digging up" a cemetery. (it was a groundhog - or some such animal). AT any rate ....

 

If the establishment of a "CODE OF CONDUCT" with regard to hunting, finding and logging Cemetery Caches helps us to AVOID such nonsense here in Indiana in the future, well, all I can say is ....GREAT!!!

 

Just My Opinion...

Your Mileage May Vary....

 

Diana

BBG

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OK, I am going to step out of this conversation now as it seems no one is getting the original point. Here’s what I have learned from this thread:

 

#1 Looking for a cache (playing a game) in a cemetery is ok and does not disrespect the dead as long as it is done during daylight hours. *note, most dead people are buried during the day, just go around them in search of your cache and watch out not to fall in the hole.

 

#2 If you decide to look for a cache in a cemetery at night, and everyone knows it happens, do not list the time you found it in you log and everything will be ok.

 

#3 The cops really don't care about people in cemetery's at night if they aren't breaking the law, however "cemetery trustee's" do.

 

#4 Grandma said "it's disrespectful to be in a graveyard at night." However, she failed to say why.

 

#5 The "good ole boy" system is alive and well with in the geacaching community.

 

#6 my opinion does not matter here.

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I'm out. If there is a moderator that is reviewing this posting please delete this thread all together. I understand the points made even if noone considered my original issue. Thanks for the fun. Have a good life. I will do my best not to ruin the entire sport of geocaching all by my onesy......savy? :D

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Ok, I've read throught the thread and I think I understand your point. I also would like to pose a question if I may.

You object to the cache owner implying there is a law in place to prevent access at night. If this cache owner were to remove this implication, would that resolve the issue at hand?

 

Wulf

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At the risk of stirring the pot, I think I'll chime in on this...

 

You said:

 

The cache page states that "you will be arrested if you are found in a cemetary at night". I am in the Criminal Justice field and have attempted to find such a law and have been unsuccesful.

 

BBG then replied with 2 pieces of Indiana Code dealing specifically with what you were looking for. Now, the only vague part is whether or not the city, county, state, etc. must post said curfew at the cemetery entrance should they impose one.

 

IC 35-33-1-1 is the area of Indiana Code dealing with when an officer may arrest an individual. See Sec. 1(a)(4). A few posts back, the cache page was quoted as saying "YOU ARE SUBJECT TO ARREST IF FOUND IN A CEMETERY AT NIGHT IN INDIANA IN MOST ALL JURISDICTIONS." Given BBG's post and what I found, this is a valid statement. Is it likely that you'd be arrested, no, but it is still an available option to any LEO who wanders up to you.

 

The other thing to think about, in regards to nearly ALL ISQ hides, is that they are located in historic cemeteries, and as such, fall into a whole separate category. There's a reason why the ISQ hiders are so specific about cleaning up if you're there and not damaging anything further. Here's an interesting link for anyone, geocacher or not, who enjoys visiting old cemeteries...

 

Indiana Cemetery Frequently Asked Questions

Edited by IndyTechNerd and Family

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Thank you. I was resolved not to post again but since you asked without emotion, I would love to answer. I admitt I am having a hard time putting what I feel into words. This cache owner is quite prominent in this area and it just rubbed me wrong the way he has used his influence to treat some other cachers. I don't like being talked down to and I don't like being told not to hunt all his caches because I raised a point. At the same time he is the cache owner and that is his right To say that he should remove the statement to make me happy would make me seem very infantile. I just would like to see more respect given to others and less threats. I am more inclined to agree with and abide by a statement about the concern for the survival of the sport rather than blowing smoke about being arrested. This sport is for everybody and we must assume that everybody will be respectful in their participation until they prove otherwise. To not assume I can be responsible is insulting and disrespectful to me and everyone else. I don't expect the statement to come off and according to the one post it sounds as if the Trustee can arrest you just for being there whether the dawn to dusk has been communicated or not. (I am still reading all the laws in context to that) I have succeded in sparking the debate even if few are in agreement with me. I will continue to respect the cache owner's wishes. I will not endanger the sport as a whole. I don't find cemetery caches very interesting because there is no challenge. I do not consider myself a historian. I attempt cache for the challenge to my mind. The hide and seek if you will. The only cemetery caches I have hit have been those that I did with friends. Everyone can rest easy....this need not be a war of words. Thank you to Team Tigger International for taking a moment to see the other side. :D

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Red Dragon wrote: If there is a moderator that is reviewing this posting please delete this thread all together.

 

Red Dragon. Since you started the posting you can close the thread. It won't be deleted but at least we won't be talking about it.

 

As for answering your questions from your very first post ... hum ... it would have helped if you had bulleted them or somehow offset them so that they would be explicitly clear. If you want people to be clear in responding to you then be clear when writing to them. In reading that first post it seems like you asked two and only two questions.

 

However, I want to know about the conduct of cache owners who try to interpret the sport the way they feel it should be played and who use their thunder to control others.

 

My answer is: As you pointed out cache owners control the logs on their cache pages. This is their right. You also have the right to hunt caches. The cache owner can not stop you. Just don't expect that your logs will be honored or kept. People conducting themselves differently than you occur in all aspects of life -- school, work, church, politics. Geocaching is no different.

 

If I spend hours in the forums spouting fancy talk about the honor of geocaching and riding the coatails of respectable people from history, will that give me the ability to mold the sport the way I think it should be played?

My answer is: Yes. Also if you don't spend hours on the forums then you also have the ability to mold the sport. You may not be successful at the molding process but certainly you can try.

 

As for your implied non-question:

 

The cache page states that "you will be arrested if you are found in a cemetary at night". (my paraphrase here) Is this an appropriate thing to say especially since for this cemetery it does not appear to be true?

My answer is: No, it is not appropriate. However I see a lot of misinformation (or worse yet, no information) on cache pages and so, personally, I would not sweat the small stuff. A nice note to the cache owner is in order but if the cache owner shrugs you off, then, so what? Having such a statement is much less irritating than misclassifying the difficulilty or terrain stars on a cache or having drastically incorrect co-ordinates. Any time any one goes caching they should be personally comfortable with the safety and appropriateness of the cache no matter what the cache owner says.

 

I think it will be very interesting to see what conversation this brings.

Indeed there was a lot of interesting conversations sprouted. Obviously not all to your liking but, in my opinion, certainly interesting.

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Now that is what I am talking about. Open commo. Thank you RPW, as always a respected member with a clear head. You are right in that it doesn't matter. I have ran the gambit of emotion with this and am now wondering why I gave it so much importance. Thanks for the perspective. I will work on my postings if I ever get the nerve to step onto this limb again. I was unaware of my capabilities with this thread so thank you again. It has only been up for not even a day so I will leave out there for a few, just to see if any more valuable info can be gathered.

 

I enjoy this sport very much and am resolved not to let one person ruin it for me. On to the next adventure and I hope to see some of you at the Smokey Mountain Geoquest on April 1st. BRP Represent!!!!!!!!!!

 

:D

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To say that he should remove the statement to make me happy would make me seem very infantile. I just would like to see more respect given to others and less threats. I am more inclined to agree with and abide by a statement about the concern for the survival of the sport rather than blowing smoke about being arrested.

 

My intention was not so much an issue of happiness (and if I inadvertently offended, my sincere appologies) but more addressing your initial question concerning legality.

 

Wulf

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The legality question is still one I will look into. I have been directed to some Indiana code I was unable to locate during a web search. I will use that to continue to educate myself. I do know that the Trespass laws state that, for public locations, the avaiable hours must be communicated before a person can be held for trespassing. If these historic cemeteries are on private property I would hope that is properly communicated on the cache page.

 

As for my infantile comment.........it was more of a self evaluation than anything I took from your posting.

 

:D

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I'm coming into this discussion kind of late, but I think that in the area of caching ethics, an interesting side issue has been raised.

 

What's more of a threat to the credibility of geocaching?

 

A) walking into a cemetery at night looking for a cache

 

or

 

B) Peppering Indiana with hundreds of ISQ's that you couldn't possibly maintain.

 

It was said that we are basically participating in a bit of fashionable "littering" with a purpose. I feel that making sure our "purposeful litter" is well maintained is just as important as when cachers actually go looking for them.

 

Case-in-point: the cache in question, ISQ #432

 

I found this one right after RD109 and read SixDogTeam's admonishment. If he has time to police his log entries and build elaborate HTML pages for his caches, he has time to check on the condition of the ones he currently owns. The micro in question is hidden under a sliver of wood on top of a burned log in a burn pile. It is a rusted metal glasses case that has no weather-proof qualities what-so-ever. I could barely pry it open. The contents were frozen solid because they were completely permeated with rain and it was freezing out. I was unable to separate the pages to sign the log, so I had to just write on the outside of the ice-paper brick.

 

I started hunting ISQ's because I thought it was a cool concept, now I hunt them so that I don't have to look at them on the list anymore. The containers themselves are so neglected that they seem to lean more toward the litter end of the spectrum.

 

It sounds to me that this whole thread has been more about ego and control issues than about law. That's on SixDogTeam. I've read alot of what he's written. Though he seems to be a bit full of himself, I must give him credit for the amount of effort he puts into posting and placing his caches. On the other hand, I criticize him for over-reaching and extending his cache-placing beyond his ability to perform up-keep. His approach to cache-placing seems to be motivated by territory marking or big statistics, and less about purity and responsibility.

 

That having been said, there a plenty of good people involved with the ISQ movement and not all of them have power and control issues.

 

I would suggest that these caches move into the virtual cache realm. The focus of this series caches seems to be on paying respect to men and women buried there. You don't need a 35mm canister or a M&M tube to do that. A virtual cache could do that nicely without the need of return maintenance. That would seem the more respectful, quality-assurant method of placing these ISQ's.

 

sixgunklr

Edited by sixgunklr

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I am in the Criminal Justice field and have attempted to find such a law and have been unsuccesful.

 

I spent 35 years as a cop. I loved arresting criminal justice students. They're more fun than a cat with a laser pointer. They are just like someone who has had 6 karate lessons. They know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to stay out of trouble. They could tell you everything they thought you were doing wrong during the arrest. It would get even better when they went before a judge and tell the judge just how much law they had learned as a CJ student.

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Just like most cops I know, you sir have made assumptions. That is fine....you can joke at my expense. Like I said before the purpose of me listing my job (not field of study) was to show I have some experience in the field of CJC. I have 12 years in and I hold the rank of Captain but I am sure that doesn't account for much. I don't challenge the law or tempt it. I respect it and educate myself when something doesn't seem right. Wadcutter........interesting you chose that name. Inaccurate, unreliable and not fit for duty...................as far as ammunition goes. :laughing:

 

I know that wasn't very nice but I have really had enough of people wanting to slam from behind a computer screen rather than be a part of the discusion. "I feel like I am playing cards with my brother's kids" :lol:

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Quick note: While the law gives powers to the cemetery trustee for total protect and operation there is no mention of hour of operation. Which means it is set by the trustee on an individual cemetery basis. The trespass laws 35-43-2-2 Sec 2 (:lol: (1) and (2) state that a person must be denied access by means of communication which was oral, written and/or posted. My point....you have to have been informed of the hours of operation for you to be trespassing. If we are going to quote laws lets get specific.

 

Anyone else knowing of a particular law that is appropriate to this discussion please refer us.

 

What about that one posting on "maintaining your caches"? :laughing:

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Coming into this discussion a little late, I'm starting to get a whiff of dead horse. Just curious, where are we on the details of this discussion?

 

Having just read the thread, this is what I'm seeing:

 

1. Indiana law allows cemetery trustees to set boundaries on times people are allowed on the property. Yes? That's what it sounds like to me anyway.

 

2. Groundspeak allows cache owners to set boundaries on logging requirements for their caches.

 

3. Posting on your cache page that "you will be arrested if you are found in a cemetary at night" is the geocaching equivalent of double-secret probation. It's blowing smoke and the cache owner really doesn't have control over such matters. If anything, it takes away from the seriousness of the respect issue and brings out the worst in those who would like to test boundaries.

 

4. The OP apparently likes to test boundaries. I know some electric fences you can come try out. Can I get you something to drink first? :laughing:

 

As for issues of cache maintenance, let's not try to muddy this water any more than necessary. If you have concerns about cache maintenance maybe it's time to open a new thread just to discuss that. Personally, I'd like to see some response from the ISQ team about how they handle the load and what their "maintenance plan" is. I think we could all learn a lot from that.

 

Bret

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I'm not taking sides, and your pointing out the trespassing code works for me. However, I think the dogging on SixDogTeam because of (lack of) maintenance on this cache (by SixDogTeam) is unwarranted. Yes, the cache needs maintenance. But if you'll look at the page, this cache was adopted by him barely a month before you found it. It's not his original hide. Sure, the argument could be made that the cache should have been checked on as soon as adoption was complete. SixDog says "We will check on it as soon as possible" in his adoption log note. If he's anywhere near as busy a person as I am, ASAP might be a month. The logs from before make no mention of the condition of the cache. The first mention of the cache being in trouble is 5 days before your find. So, I'll ask you, why not post a "needs maintenance" log? Log pages frozen together would definitely qualify, and the container itself could use a change. With the number of hides and "found" logs coming in, a "needs maintenance" would stick out and draw attention to the cache, especially if there were 2 in a row (sixgunklr).

 

I don't know SDT, and don't think I've ever found one of his hides, but I think that ripping the guy for a cache that he took over 30 days prior is bad form.

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I'm not taking sides, and your pointing out the trespassing code works for me. However, I think the dogging on SixDogTeam because of (lack of) maintenance on this cache (by SixDogTeam) is unwarranted. Yes, the cache needs maintenance. But if you'll look at the page, this cache was adopted by him barely a month before you found it. It's not his original hide. Sure, the argument could be made that the cache should have been checked on as soon as adoption was complete. SixDog says "We will check on it as soon as possible" in his adoption log note. If he's anywhere near as busy a person as I am, ASAP might be a month. The logs from before make no mention of the condition of the cache. The first mention of the cache being in trouble is 5 days before your find. So, I'll ask you, why not post a "needs maintenance" log? Log pages frozen together would definitely qualify, and the container itself could use a change. With the number of hides and "found" logs coming in, a "needs maintenance" would stick out and draw attention to the cache, especially if there were 2 in a row (sixgunklr).

 

I don't know SDT, and don't think I've ever found one of his hides, but I think that ripping the guy for a cache that he took over 30 days prior is bad form.

 

Once again, let's stay on focus. If you have maintenance issues start another thread.

 

Bret

Edited by CYBret

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Sorry Bret. We posted at nearly the same time and I took a while to write the post. I know this thread isn't about cache maintenance exclusively, but previous posts caused me to think it was heading in that direction.

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This is not a slam, this is an attempt to draw attention to a problem.......

 

Indiana Spirit Quest #77: Two Pair

>

>

> July 15, 2005 by CYBret (1263 found)

> Geocacher University

 

> 3:10 pm

> We had to stop here to let smtycolt log, "The World's Most Visible Cache."

> Then we noticed this cache just down the road. Strohem had logged it

> already, so she directed us to the cemetery so we could go find it.

>

> And while we were at the cache she moved the Durango...all by herself.

> Hmmmm...who told her she could do that?

>

> Unfortunately, I have to say I've never seen a logbook this soaked. This

> one could use some definite TLC. We couldn't begin to log the cache, so we

> replaced the logbook with a couple sheets of paper and a new baggie.

> However, the leaky container remains.>

> Thanks for the cache.

>

>

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"As for issues of cache maintenance, let's not try to muddy this water any more than necessary. If you have concerns about cache maintenance maybe it's time to open a new thread just to discuss that. Personally, I'd like to see some response from the ISQ team about how they handle the load and what their "maintenance plan" is. I think we could all learn a lot from that." - CYBRET

 

Thank you sir, may I have another?

 

Where's Wadcutter's admonishment for making this thread about how cops are so much smarter and powerful than everyone else in the law enforcement field?

 

Or is it just that my "muddy water" made sense and you're an SDT fan?

 

Also, who says you get to decide where the nature ebb and flow of a forum discussion goes? This thread started as a discussion of whether or not SDT should have deleted a log. Nobody objected when the subject naturally flowed to whether night-caching in cemeteries is even legal, did they? My point was to shore up my belief that SDT is a bit of a control nut, and that this issue is what this whole thread sort of dances around. So, in a way, I was really trying to recognize the broader topic. Is that worth partial credit anyway?

 

LOL

 

Six

 

Wow, there are so many ways I want to respond to this message. I'll just leave it at this: I'm the volunteer moderator for this forum. I'm not trying to decide the "ebb and flow of a forum discussion" as much as I'm trying to keep the discussion clear. Obviously emotions are high in this thread. I think it would be best if we kept on the topic at hand rather than raise a bunch of secondary topics that will just inflame the discussion rather than bring it to some understanding.

 

An "SDT fan?" I had to search my memory banks pretty hard to figure out what that meant. No, I'm just a geocaching fan.

 

As for "may I have another."....you may.....you may yet. :P

 

Let's keep to the topic. Accusatory posts have no place here. Keep it friendly. And might I add, most of you are doing a great job of that. Thanks...makes my job a lot easier. :)

 

Bret

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This is not a slam, this is an attempt to draw attention to a problem.......

 

Indiana Spirit Quest #77: Two Pair

>

>

> July 15, 2005 by CYBret (1263 found)

> Geocacher University

 

> 3:10 pm

> We had to stop here to let smtycolt log, "The World's Most Visible Cache."

> Then we noticed this cache just down the road. Strohem had logged it

> already, so she directed us to the cemetery so we could go find it.

>

> And while we were at the cache she moved the Durango...all by herself.

> Hmmmm...who told her she could do that?

>

> Unfortunately, I have to say I've never seen a logbook this soaked. This

> one could use some definite TLC. We couldn't begin to log the cache, so we

> replaced the logbook with a couple sheets of paper and a new baggie.

> However, the leaky container remains.>

> Thanks for the cache.

>

>

 

You know, I was thinking about that cache when I made my post earlier. That was a fun day :P Icky cache, though. :)

 

Honestly, I haven't done nearly enough ISQ's to form an opinion. I still think that if we're going to get into maintenance issues it would be best to spin that off into a new thread. Anyone interested in taking up that task?

 

Bret

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I'm on it. I started this whole mess and I have issue with the same set of circumstances as Six Gun since I cache the same general area. I oughta start a book on how to make friends and influence people. Thanks CYBret for the input. :anicute:

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Cybret, I would like to apologize for the unnecessary posts I've made on this thread, I often get caught up in the argument. However, there are several valid points here that should be addressed. We have a problem in this area and find it very difficult for any "official" people to listen. I have received several emails form people in the area who agree with the complaints but do not want to post for fear of attack in the forums. The fact that you are taking the time to read this thread and post useful suggestions is appreciated. We just want to geocache and have a good time. Being bullied by someone in only going to cause the situation to blow. Stay cool.

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Cybret, I would like to apologize for the unnecessary posts I've made on this thread, I often get caught up in the argument. However, there are several valid points here that should be addressed. We have a problem in this area and find it very difficult for any "official" people to listen. I have received several emails form people in the area who agree with the complaints but do not want to post for fear of attack in the forums. The fact that you are taking the time to read this thread and post useful suggestions is appreciated. We just want to geocache and have a good time. Being bullied by someone in only going to cause the situation to blow. Stay cool.

 

First of all, don't worry about it. For the most part I think this thread has done a great job of staying on topic. My concern as I started reading this thread this morning was that it was obviously something people were feeling passionate about, but the length of the posts were drawing in all sorts of side issues that would best be served in threads devoted to them alone.

 

The main thing is that these forums call for respect (even for your friendly neighborhood moderator). That's not too much to ask for. These are the people you will see next month at CITO events and this summer at other events. You want to make sure those meetings on the trail are as friendly as possible. :anicute:

 

As for getting "official" people to listen, you have several paths at your disposal. First, post a "needs maintenance" or "needs archived" note. Second, contact your local reviewers. Third, take it straight to Groundspeak through contactATgroundspeakDOTcom.

 

In that order if possible.

 

Bret

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I meant no disrespect. As a guest here, I defer to your judgement as moderator. If you feel I was off topic or disrespectful, feel free to delete or move my posts.

 

Please don't read any anger or "passion" in my posts. I just enjoy crafting a debate position.

 

:anicute:

 

Six

Edited by sixgunklr

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I meant no disrespect. As a guest here, I defer to your judgement as moderator. If you feel I was off topic or disrespectful, feel free to delete or move my posts.

 

Please don't read any anger or "passion" in my posts. I just enjoy crafting a debate position.

 

:yikes:

 

Six

 

We don't delete posts....we just edit them to make you look goofy. It's the equivalent of going to a party and waking up the next morning to find that your friends wrote on you in permanent marker.

 

 

Don't ever fall asleep in the forums. :anicute:

 

:anicute:

 

Bret (back on topic yet?)

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I have a question...if the cemeteries are privatly owned (or publicly for that matter), did they really manage to get permission from someone in charge of each of them to place the cache??? This question crossed my mind several times when hunting them out. Makes you wonder where they could possibly store all that paperwork!!! I personaly have found several ISQ caches, and only 2 made me uncomfortable. Not due to lack of maint. on them though. One was DIRECTLY above a headstone in a tree, and the other was because the neighbor is threatning cachers with a shotgun for being in the cemetery. (I didn't know that when I went after it though) For the most part, they all seemed to be maintained well.

 

Side note here: I recently tried to place a cache with a "theme" and there were specific requirements for logging the cache. The reviewer told me I couldn't do this, because once the log is signed it is a legitimate find, and therefore it counts. I was told there was nothing I could do about it.

 

edited to remove incorrect quote

Edited by CYBret

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Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

This will be the last time I'm posting this. If you have a beef with another cacher or cachers, take it to them privately, take it to your local reviewer, take it to contactATgroundspeakDOTcom or learn to live with it. But do not bring it into the forum.

 

I still believe that this thread and the other one can be productive and open discussions. Please don't prove me wrong.

 

Bret

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Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

This will be the last time I'm posting this. If you have a beef with another cacher or cachers, take it to them privately, take it to your local reviewer, take it to contactATgroundspeakDOTcom or learn to live with it. But do not bring it into the forum.

 

I still believe that this thread and the other one can be productive and open discussions. Please don't prove me wrong.

 

Bret

 

Bret,

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I was in NO WAY personally attacking the cacher in question!!! I was actually commending him for not posting in the thread, and staying out of the mess, as ugly as it was getting! I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.

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My apologies to The Herd for my not being clearer. My post above was not directed to them alone, but to everyone involved in these discussions.

 

Bret

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I've been following this thread for the last few days.

 

My thoughts:

 

Is the hider doing anything wrong by putting the part about possible arrest on the cache page? No. Is he trying to prevent caching getting a bad name? Yes (probably at least, since they haven't posted to explain their reasoning). The closest thing to this that I can think of is people who put up 'Beware Of Dog' signs even tho they do not have a dog. It is used as a preventative measure. One definate (or almost definate) determination on whether the warning may be true or not might be this: are there gates and are they locked after dark? If so, whether it is private or public property, I would think that it is pretty obvious that you are not supposed to be there. I know the one in your example does not have gates, but what about the rest of them?

 

Red Dragon 109: you have mentioned your job. I'm inferring from things you've said that you are most likely work in the incarceration field (from such quotes as: "I am in the Criminal Justice field", "I listed my occupation so that the readers of this posting would know that I am someone that knows a little about the subject at hand. I in no way have abused my position as a Criminal Justice Professional." and "I have 12 years in and I hold the rank of Captain " . I mean no offence, but if that is the case, that is not the most pertinent job you can have in relation to the question at hand- even tho it may be in a related field. For the record- what is your job? 'The Criminal Justice Field' covers quite a bit of ground, from law students to guards to judges.

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I didn't list my exact job because I know that folks in my field generally don't get respect from the rest. For example.....you used the word "guards". Guards work in banks, the men and women who work for the IDOC are Officers and they deserve the respect that that title carries. They are professionals and I am one of them. I have a Batchelors in Criminal Justice and Criminology and am a Captain/Field Specialist in the area of Emergency Response Operations. I am not trying to sound arogant. I do know a "little" about the law. I read, study and discuss law related issues with people from all branches of the Crim field. Because I work for IDOC doesn't mean I can't understand the issues or am not able to see all angles. I also mentioned in an earlier post that I do not temp nor disrespect the law.

 

The cache I used in my (self admitted immature) stunt does not have a gate, sign, or anything else that would otherwise indicate there were hours of operation. The issue is not about whether we should or should not be in cemeteries after dusk. That was an example that was used to spark this thread. The issue was "when does a cache owner over step their bounds regardless of good intentions." As I mentioned before I am more likely to agree with and abide by a request that is stated with truth and respect for my intelligence rather than someone trying to scare me off. Unfortunately this thread turned into too many people wanting to attack me or the owner of the cache in question and/or defend me or the other cacher OR defend the need to stay out of cemeteries at night.

 

I understand the concerns due to issues in SC. I do not wish to see geocaching in IN become a subculture with negative conotations and additional legal restrictions to protect the world from our evil ways(that was sarcastic). I merely wanted to get some opinions on whether anyone else felt the same as I about smoke screens. Some say they are a bad idea because they are not based on honesty and respect for the other cacher's intilect. Others say that they are justifiable due to the need to protect the sport. I have heard and understand both sides. I know how I plan to handle my caches I own and I will avoid allowing someone else's methods offend me. It is really all trivial when you stand back and look at it. Thanks for everyones input. For the record COD I was not offended even though my rant may read that way. I didn't want to be automatically written off by putting my exact job on the forum. But, you asked and so I answered. :laughing:

Edited by Red Dragon 109

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I don't see your post or concern as a rant. You are a concerned cacher voicing your opinion. I also don't, and hope no one else does either, write off your job. It is a very important, indeed vital one, in the criminal justice field.

 

I do see what you are getting at. Perhaps the wording of the warning could be a bit less authoritative, maybe something like: 'You may be subject to arrest if you are found in a cemetery in Indiana after dark, subject to local laws and/or ordinances.'.

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