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Moote

Log Deletions

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I logged this comment on the cache The Wirral Pub Crawl Series no1 The Irby Mill My reason for this is that the cache was rated 1 / 1 but this was clearly not the case as the cache is situated 3m up a cliff face. Now I'm not one to moan about if it should be 1 or 1.5 but to have a cache which involves for some people could be a dangerous situation, and not reflect that in its grade is a joke.

 

Below was a copy of the original log

 

______________________________________________________________________________

 

Found on a days caching with Mongoose39UK and Mattwaggie

 

I think that the cache owner should think about changing the terrain from 1 to 2.5 or 3

 

Reason 1. Cache is up a cliff

 

Reason 2. This would not be wheelchair accessible

 

Reason 3. GPSr signal is unreliable in this location due to quarry walls and trees

 

TFTC

 

Moote

 

______________________________________________________________________________

 

I think that we as cachers should and must consider Difficulty and terrain ratings more seriously, after all someone who might get suck up a rock face or worse falling because the got into difficulty is a hard thing to stomach.

 

The cache does not even have a hint and there is no warning that this is in a potentially life threatening place

 

Moote

 

P.S. This is written with my mountaineering head on and not my caching head, I never deny anyone a danger warning when I send or tell them or bring them to a dangerous place

Edited by Moote

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I generally agree with your feelings and note that the difficulty has now changed.

 

I'm not sure I completely understood your original post. Are you saying that you had your log deleted? I can sort of understand it. If the cache setter has decided that they don't want to give away too much about the cache, your log if fairly revealing.

 

Perhaps a private e-mail first would have been the way to go.

 

I equally feel that if there is the possibility of someone being tempted into an unnecessary and dangerous climb this should be noted in some way.

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I have changed the ratings.

 

I had put a 3 into the difficulty instead of the terrain. I appolgise to any cahers for my mistake.

 

I took Moote's log off because I did think he gave too much away in the log and also I thought it would put cachers off thinking it was a life threatening cache.

 

As I pointed out to Moote, I placed the cache myself. I am a 57 year old woman, terrified of heights and have rheumatoid arthritis. I have no wish to put any cachers in danger so I have archived the cache for the time being.

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I generally agree with your feelings and note that the difficulty has now changed.

 

I'm not sure I completely understood your original post. Are you saying that you had your log deleted? I can sort of understand it. If the cache setter has decided that they don't want to give away too much about the cache, your log if fairly revealing.

 

Perhaps a private e-mail first would have been the way to go.

 

I equally feel that if there is the possibility of someone being tempted into an unnecessary and dangerous climb this should be noted in some way.

If something is dangerous do not mislead, I would place a warning on any cache that might include an element of danger. In fact I would put it at the top of the cache description in Bold Red Large Font.

 

I have seen what climbing on cliff's can do I have seen people loose a limb, I have seen serious head injuries, and to treat that as an "Oh well we just want to be smart with our cache placement" is just not on. This is not a sport of who is better than the other, it is a sport of taking people to interesting locations; if you wish to put people in danger without warning, then that is Stupidity or just trying to be a smarty pants.

 

If a cache setter is willing to be like that then I'm afraid that is just pig headed and / or arrogant.

 

Moote

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Myself I didn't see the danger.

 

Ok the difficulty needed raising.

Which we have done...

 

I really don't know what the fuss is about - it is not 3m up a cliff face - try 5ft!!

 

We HAVE Changed the rating, and don't like the personal insults from Moote either.

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Another victory for the cache police! Moote have you considered that going in with both feet and posting every gripe you have with caches in the public forum is maybe not the best way to go about things?

 

As a representative of GAGB I would expect you to be encouraging cachers and caching as a game/sport/hobby to develop, yet it comes across to me that you are just trying to stamp your own authority all over it.

 

Im sad to see someone archive their cache due to what basically amounts to public disparagement from someone who is supposed to hold a responsible position within a geocaching organisation, and feel this also reflects badly on GAGB itself. A bit of tact, decorum and private communication wouldn't have gone amiss in this situation would it?

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad.

It is doubly sad because it forms part of a series, so the other 7 caches in the series are now pointless too.

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Just re enable it.

 

It has an appropriate difficulty and terrain now.

 

At the end of the day people should take responsibility for their own actions. If they don't feel safe don't do it! ;)

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I have changed the ratings.

 

I had put a 3 into the difficulty instead of the terrain. I appolgise to any cahers for my mistake.

 

I took Moote's log off because I did think he gave too much away in the log and also I thought it would put cachers off thinking it was a life threatening cache.

 

As I pointed out to Moote, I placed the cache myself. I am a 57 year old woman, terrified of heights and have rheumatoid arthritis. I have no wish to put any cachers in danger so I have archived the cache for the time being.

Maybe you changed the ratings, but where are your warnings, I have been a mountaineer since the age of 11; I have climbed and caved in many locations around the world and I have helped rescue both dead and alive people. Several people I have seen killed fell a few feet and fractured their skulls.

 

I would consider that when placing a cache, I'm not saying a cliff face is not a good place, but to not warn is a complete joke. The actual series looks ill conceived and the gradings of each are out as you have taken no time to think if people with disabilities could do the cache. All my caches have a HandiCaching rating, apart from one which I

recently adopted be need to visit.

 

Consider other people not yourself.

 

Moote

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Its a couple of feet up un wide ledges and a stretch to reach it.

 

It is not climbing, barely scrambling.

 

Also been climbing for many years.

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

Comment! This is about putting others in dangerous situations without warnings, if you have done the cache then feel free to supply an opinion.

 

Moote

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Normally with these sort of arguments you're never quite sure who is right. Fortunately, in this case I have the chance to check it out for myself. Now if I was a betting man...

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

Comment! This is about putting others in dangerous situations without warnings, if you have done the cache then feel free to supply an opinion.

 

Moote

Strange. The person who found the cache with you, and the cache placer - a 57-year old woman with arthritis - has no problem with it.

 

I think the problem is you. Perhaps you need to do less challenging caches?

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Comment! This is about putting others in dangerous situations without warnings, if you have done the cache then feel free to supply an opinion.

 

Moote

I haven't done the cache, but here's my opinion anyway....

 

There is a warning on every cache page, pointing you to the geocaching.com disclaimer, which states in large bold text:

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

My question is, do you wear a helmet in case you fall off your high horse?? ;)

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

Comment! This is about putting others in dangerous situations without warnings, if you have done the cache then feel free to supply an opinion.

 

Moote

Strange. The person who found the cache with you, and the cache placer - a 57-year old woman with arthritis - has no problem with it.

 

I think the problem is you. Perhaps you need to do less challenging caches?

Go and do the cache if you wish to comment, I have been involved with cliff rescues and feel adequately qualified to comment on this.

 

Moote

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Ok can we lay off the personal attacks.

 

Not needed

If Moote presented his views less publicly and forcibly then no-one would feel the need to resort to personal attacks.

 

Debates about the rights and wrongs of one cache should be done in private with the owner and/or reviewer. Forcing someone to archive a series of 8 caches just because one person doesn't like one of the caches is just not acceptable behaviour.

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I have disabled it only until I have had another look at the height. I had no intention of being a "smarty pants" or to put cachers in danger. I placed it without any trouble and really can't understand what all the fuss is about. Guess I'm fitter than I thought. I will put a large warning on IF I take it out of archive, so only really fit cachers/mountineers should attempt this "dangerous climb". Maybe I should take up a really dangerous hobbie like jigsaws or crochet!!!!!

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Ok can we lay off the personal attacks.

 

Not needed

If Moote presented his views less publicly and forcibly then no-one would feel the need to resort to personal attacks.

 

Debates about the rights and wrongs of one cache should be done in private with the owner and/or reviewer. Forcing someone to archive a series of 8 caches just because one person doesn't like one of the caches is just not acceptable behaviour.

Whoa, did I mention anyone.

 

Just suggested it was time to back off, for everyone.

 

Please rephrase

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If Moote presented his views less publicly and forcibly then no-one would feel the need to resort to personal attacks.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, just because it is aired on a public forum, does not mean you can make a personal attack on them.

 

I personally think the cache should be enabled again, as the rating have been amended suitably.

 

Matt

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Ok can we lay off the personal attacks.

 

Not needed

If Moote presented his views less publicly and forcibly then no-one would feel the need to resort to personal attacks.

 

Debates about the rights and wrongs of one cache should be done in private with the owner and/or reviewer. Forcing someone to archive a series of 8 caches just because one person doesn't like one of the caches is just not acceptable behaviour.

This needed logging as a cliff face, I did that, the owners were not happy with that fact, they deleted the log.

 

The cache was 3 meters above the ground, one slip and possible head injury, at best life of possible disability at worst death!

 

Should another cacher NOT consider others?

 

If your answer is no then put your caches where you like because Death is far worse than trespass! Nuclear Bunker (Bucks)

 

Moote

Edited by Moote

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I have archived the cache for the time being.

How sad.

It is doubly sad because it forms part of a series, so the other 7 caches in the series are now pointless too.

I would also like to encourage you to re-activate the cache.

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Everybody is entitled to an opinion, just because it is aired on a public forum, does not mean you can make a personal attack on them.

Well, I stand by my comments. I would tell anyone who came on here and posted "The actual series looks ill conceived" about anyone's caches to get off their high horse.

 

These decisions are what reviewers are for, and if they say its ok then it's no-one else's place to say otherwise. Least of all publicly in a belittling way.

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Well, I stand by my comments.

Me too. Publicly describing the cacher setter as pig-headed and arrogant wasn't exactly going to win friends and influence people, was it?

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Everybody is entitled to an opinion, just because it is aired on a public forum, does not mean you can make a personal attack on them.

Well, I stand by my comments. I would tell anyone who came on here and posted "The actual series looks ill conceived" about anyone's caches to get off their high horse.

 

These decisions are what reviewers are for, and if they say its ok then it's no-one else's place to say otherwise. Least of all publicly in a belittling way.

Maybe, but i fair and square found and logged but because the setter was not happy that I warned others in my log they deleted; they could have asked me to edit the comment; they could have encrypted it. But because they deleted that is why I bring it here. Public is better than private!

 

If a cacher feels that someone wellbeing is not worthy of a simple comment so be it on there conscience!

 

People can't be replace caches can

 

Moote

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Well, I stand by my comments.

Me too. Publicly describing the cacher setter as pig-headed and arrogant wasn't exactly going to win friends and influence people, was it?

So is Death better than trespass!

Edited by Moote

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People choose to do the cache, no one forces them

True, but some accuracy is not too much to ask for

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Do I need this abuse!

 

I brought to this forum a ligitamate discussion and I get emailed this!

 

--This message was sent through http://www.geocaching.com --

 

Why don't you just leave people alone, stop being rude in the forums, and let everyone get on with enjoying the hobby?

 

Oh yes, and resign from the GAGB committee, because you're not worthy enough to represent any organisation.

 

User's Profile: Edited: Removed users profile from the email copy

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Forward abuse complaints to: contact@geocaching.com

Edited by Moote

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Don't you have any respect? Posting private messages in a public forum is totally unacceptable.

 

Please can a moderator lock this thread and ban this guy now!

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cor blimey , your gonna have fun slating the cache I last set.

 

a959c050-8502-444a-bfe4-a3a4419412e7.jpg

 

yes, no rope.

Edited by stonefisk

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This is really getting out of hand. Before I took Mootes log off I changed it to a 3 terrain. I took off the log as I said, as Mootes comments made the cache sound really dangerous and he gave away where it was placed. We will go and do a "Risk Assesment" on the cache asap. If we feel it is too challanging for most cachers, we will just place it on the ground, using the same co-ordinates. If we do keep it at the height, we will place a warning on the cache page. I hope this won't put cachers off, when really it's not at all difficult. We have done far more dangerous caches without warnings, but I do see his point. He could have quite easily e-mailed me and I would have changed it right away. We haven't been doing caching for very long and had only placed two caches before this series. We do take caching very seriously and are always open for any help and advice that fellow cachers can offer. We hope to put the cache on back soon even though Moote thinks the whole series is ill concieved. Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

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Don't you have any respect? Posting private messages in a public forum is totally unacceptable.

No its an excellent and totally acceptable counter tactic to vile unsolicited private messages. Very predictable though, the author should have thought twice before hitting the send button.

 

How long before this thread gets locked? all seems rather nasty.

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But I would think that you place adiquete warnings on the page; it's not about where you place, it's about safety and informing others of the risks involved. I have lost many friends caving and climbing, I nearly lost a brother also. I know risks but i use common sense and inform.

 

Moote

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I really don't know what the fuss is about - it is not 3m up a cliff face - try 5ft!!

Just noticed this comment, it was at least 5ft above my head and I am 5" 11' tall, again that is misleading

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How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

Hmmmm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not your comments that ended up with Nuclear Bunker (Bucks) GCC7A1 being archived? ;)

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How sad. Please reconsider and ask a reviewer to un-archive it for you. Don't let comments from some cachers spoil your enjoyment of the hobby.

Hmmmm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not your comments that ended up with Nuclear Bunker (Bucks) GCC7A1 being archived? ;)

HooRah for Billy Twigger :D

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Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

Ignore him, he's only a been here a year himself ;)

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Maybe, but i fair and square found and logged but because the setter was not happy that I warned others in my log they deleted; they could have asked me to edit the comment; they could have encrypted it. But because they deleted that is why I bring it here. Public is better than private!

 

If a cacher feels that someone wellbeing is not worthy of a simple comment so be it on there conscience!

 

People can't be replace caches can

 

Moote

The setter has explained why they deleted the log. They have adjusted the difficulty so obviously took your comments on board, it isn't as though they have scant regard for people's safety and deleted your log in the hope someone would come along and cause themselves an injury.

 

You could have approached the situation by logging your find and sending them a friendly email through their profile voicing your concerns and advising them that you feel their listing may benefit from some additional warnings other than the standard ones placed on the pages by geocaching.com

 

Caving and climbing may be field of expertise for you, but may I suggest you work a little more on people skills in future? Before you hit that send button in the forums just consider whether the matter might be resolved more quickly and less painfully in private. Suggestions are much more likely to be taken on board than instructions!

 

Anyways, that's my piece on this topic now. If I wasn't so jetlagged I would have shut up hours ago....

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Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

Ignore him, he's only a been here a year himself ;)

I might be newish to caching, but I am not new to seeing injuries and death through ignorance

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Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

Ignore him, he's only a been here a year himself ;)

I might be newish to caching, but I am not new to seeing injuries and death through ignorance

Nor new to posting either it would seem :D

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Maybe, but i fair and square found and logged but because the setter was not happy that I warned others in my log they deleted; they could have asked me to edit the comment; they could have encrypted it. But because they deleted that is why I bring it here.  Public is better than private!

 

If a cacher feels that someone wellbeing is not worthy of a simple comment so be it on there conscience!

 

People can't be replace caches can

 

Moote

The setter has explained why they deleted the log. They have adjusted the difficulty so obviously took your comments on board, it isn't as though they have scant regard for people's safety and deleted your log in the hope someone would come along and cause themselves an injury.

 

You could have approached the situation by logging your find and sending them a friendly email through their profile voicing your concerns and advising them that you feel their listing may benefit from some additional warnings other than the standard ones placed on the pages by geocaching.com

 

Caving and climbing may be field of expertise for you, but may I suggest you work a little more on people skills in future? Before you hit that send button in the forums just consider whether the matter might be resolved more quickly and less painfully in private. Suggestions are much more likely to be taken on board than instructions!

 

Anyways, that's my piece on this topic now. If I wasn't so jetlagged I would have shut up hours ago....

People skills! So you personally know me? How can you pass comment? I think that this is not anything to do with this thread (Totally off Topic) My concern is for people safety if others are not interested then that is shallow and devoid. One dead person is worse than 100 upset ones!

 

Moote

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Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

Ignore him, he's only a been here a year himself ;)

I might be newish to caching, but I am not new to seeing injuries and death through ignorance

I can see some sort of PC propaganda coming here ...

 

We seemed to manage quite well before you arrived on the scene :D

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Why doesn't he as a very experienced cacher just offer us some advice and stop slagging us off??

Ignore him, he's only a been here a year himself ;)

I might be newish to caching, but I am not new to seeing injuries and death through ignorance

I can see some sort of PC propaganda coming here ...

 

We seemed to manage quite well before you arrived on the scene :D

Well I have no problem with that, just carry on as you are

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