+Mudfrog Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Moral of the story: If you want to break city ordinances or commit other minor infractions,,, then do so at your own risk. Above all, don't tell the authorities that you're geocaching when ya get caught! Blue, don'tcha worry none. There'll be other FTF opportunities. Quote Link to comment
+Jeep_Dog Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I agree with you Criminal, ...snip So what am I supposed to do with all that E&E training the Air Force gave me? I certainly don’t want to get rusty. Keep an eye out for the next cache I place, then come on over when it is posted. You can put that training to good use finding it. Quote Link to comment
+Jeep_Dog Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 (edited) 1) The real issue isn't FTF, it is the negative perception that this gives geocachers. 2) One need only to review the pictures of cachers, in the dark, in closed cemetaries, that were used, as evidence, by South Carolina Legislatures. Bragging about breaking rules/laws etc, will come back to bite geocachers in the A@#! 3) This isn't about minding one's business, but rather playing the game lawfully, with full regard to posted rules/ laws etc. 1) That is precisely why I went on to give more of my thoughts. 2) Hence my thoughts on the axiom of someone breaking the law while geocaching and that behavior does harm others as being fallacious. 3) Conceptually, I believe we agree upon what is "right" behavior while geocaching. My point was not to infer that we should all just "mind our own business." Rather, my point was that hunting down and excommunicating a small aberrant piece of our community, and the "holier than thou" ethical enforcement that can be associated with such purging is more dangerous, in my opinion, to our community than some neighborhood parks being entered after they are closed. Edited January 20, 2006 by Jeep_Dog Quote Link to comment
+KCBoom Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Yes, I found the cache before first light. At 0650. It was snowing out and very peaceful. Beautiful. The way I entered had an open gate and no hours posted. I wasn't trying to get a FTF. Just wanted to have a great experience after work. If a law enforcement officer had arrived, I would have obeyed his/her directions. Not a problem to come back in the daylight. I learned a lesson and can move on. I hope others can move on too. Quote Link to comment
+Tharagleb Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 So ignorance is ok then, i guess? I guess im alone in thinking its common place to know that "most" parks are "Usually" closed after dark. Bluevoodo A park I was in last Tuesday had hours until 10:00 pm, but you are correct a lot of the parks I've been to close at dusk, or such. Quote Link to comment
+Yamahammer Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Blue, Are you upset, and it's apparent you are, that they didn't see the sign; or ignored; or that you didn't get the FTF? Are you sure they deliberately broke the law? You've got to be sure as in holding the light and being there, before you make accusations. ... I'm just saying, be careful. Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 So ignorance is ok then, i guess? I guess im alone in thinking its common place to know that "most" parks are "Usually" closed after dark. Bluevoodo A park I was in last Tuesday had hours until 10:00 pm, but you are correct a lot of the parks I've been to close at dusk, or such. In Indiana, most if not all state parks are open till 10 pm for "day use" and all night for campers. I have not seen any restrictions on campers except a "quiet time". Assumably you can hike the trails quietly all night. However most city parks I've encountered close at dark, presumably because of "unsavoury" activities that tend to occur in places and times when one is less likely to be seen. I know of at least one city park that closes at 10 The whole issue revolves around the particular cache in question. And IM(not so)HO, being anywhere when the anywhere is closed to the public is at best very bad form and at worst a crimninal offense. Sad to say, a lot of cachers don't seem to care about rules or law. Quote Link to comment
+CamoCacher Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think this is an intersting thread and I know I need to amend one of my cache listings to put in park hours. But for a few parks most of the ones in my area I have never seen any posted hours. All but one say dusk, the one says 1000pm. On top of that since it gets dark here pretty darn quick in the winter, like around 430pm there is almost no way to cache on a weekday without being out in the dark. Since I generally have my dog with me to get his excercise I guess I've never seen an issue with being in a park after dark even if it says closed at dusk. I think at least in our area most LEO are pretty mild about it if before 1000pm because of the early dark in the winter. Most people are out after dark walking dogs, sledding, skating, etc prior to 1000pm but well after dark. I'd be surprised if most people, to include cachers don't break one law or another. I know I habitually break the leash law. Many of the times we are out ALONE (if anyone is around he is leashed) with no one else around and he likes to run. I let him go. Hes always in eyesight, wears a muzzle so he can't hurt anyone/thing and at LEAST I CLEAN UP HIS POOP. On top of that I usually speed too. Quote Link to comment
Stearmandriver Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 This is interesting, as I've had a few discussions with cops over park hours here in N IL recently. First, I can see the concern about admitting to geocaching while breaking a law - it could be a quick way to get caches banned there. If you just say you're out for a walk, however... I grew up in a rural area, and now that we live in the suburbs (blech!) I have been astounded to discover the parks close. I mean, how can they close? They're public property! Every tax payer owns them. That includes me, the way I look at it. So if I want to take my dog for a walk on my property at 2 in the morning, what's the problem? I get pretty nocturnal on my days off, and I really am regularly out there at that time of night. I've run into cops a few times. They couldn't care less - I'm one guy with a dog, not drunk or stoned. I'm a non-interest. The dog is the most harmless being that's ever lived - I mean an Oak tree is more dangerous. I had a cop stop to talk once, and play with the dog. He asked me if I was often out there that time of night, and was interested in hearing if I ever saw groups of kids there or anything. He just asked me to call them if I ever saw anything that didn't look right. He never once mentioned that I shouldn't be there, so I finally asked him if any of his coworkers would consider it a problem. He said no way, as long as I wasn't causing any problems, which I obviously don't. He further told me that technically, he's not sure he can even throw someone on foot out of the park. I guess they have clear dominion over the parking lots (which are gated after sunset anyway), but he didn't seem to think he even could bust someone just for being there. Who knows, maybe I just have some mellow local cops... but I'll never wrap my mind around the idea that you can close public property! Quote Link to comment
+Mastifflover Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ok I'll admit it. I've been in a park after dark to get a cache. I probably drove 5 mph over the speed limit to get there. I probably didn't wear my seatbelt either. What a terrible person I must be. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 You should always wear your seatbelt. Quote Link to comment
SlawDawg Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I was stuck in a park after the closing time once. We went in and headed out on the trail and spent a long time looking for a cache that was missing, lost track of time and when we noticed the time and headed out we had been locked in. The neighbor that lives next door to the park heard us and came over and showed us the where the hidden key to the gate was and we were able to get out. I guess we can now get into that park anytime. I do not think I would ever on purpose go to the park to get a geocache after the posted closing time. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 ... I do not think I would ever on purpose go to the park to get a geocache after the posted closing time. Of course you wouldn't, but if the gate were open and you didn't see a sign, would you enter the park before the opening time? Quote Link to comment
+JohnnyVegas Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I could be the person was not a very good finder and may have spent 12 hours looking for the cache. Oh OH By the Way Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The issue here was not that the finder went late at night after the park closed. The finder got up early and apparently entered the park before it officially opened. Quote Link to comment
ParentsofSAM Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The issue here was not that the finder went late at night after the park closed. The finder got up early and apparently entered the park before it officially opened. Does that make a difference? Should they do it either way probably not, but they did. They should not mention it in the logs. That is a record of them breaking the law, and that could be bad in many ways. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Does that make a difference? Should they do it either way probably not, but they did. They should not mention it in the logs. That is a record of them breaking the law, and that could be bad in many ways. Are we talking about the same cache? (#219) FTF - Yeah baby! Another few minutes and I probably would have given up FTF rights to The Moops. They showed up just as I was getting in my car. Anyway, I spent way too much time here because my GPS was jumping around, and I ultimately ended up finding the cache about 50 feet from where the GPS zeroed out twice. It was a fun hunt with one of the neighbors staring at me for a couple minutes from his driveway. Nice container too! The Moops showed up and it only took them about 5 minutes to STF the darn thing... TN, L:sig card, SL. TFTC!!! The fact is, how did they even know that they were breaking the law (if they in fact did)? They got up early, went to a park, entered through an open gate, and didn't see a sign with times posted. Why must everything be made into a huge drama around here? (That last question was rhetorical and not leveled at any particular poster) Quote Link to comment
+Zzyzx Road Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Rule and regulations. People drop their kids off at the school, and then turn left out of the driveway where there is a sign clearly stating, "NO LEFT TURN"... What are they teaching their children? People walk into a park where there is a sign stating "PARK HOURS: XXX-XXX" during an inappropriate time... Again, what are they teaching their children? We have guns for hunting, hubby hunts only during the days/times listed on the regulations, we lock our guns in a proper cabinet, with trigger locks, yet one of my friend's father is caught poaching... What did he teach his children? We have a whole society of people who do not respect the laws or each other's property or show any consideration for the next guy because the thinking is, "ALL ABOUT ME!!!" I am having a really hard time teching my children how to live in a society where (supposedly) adults don't "follow the rules"... Sorry for the rant...I had 2¢ to spare this morning... Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Rule and regulations.... People walk into a park where there is a sign stating "PARK HOURS: XXX-XXX" during an inappropriate time... Again, what are they teaching their children? ... Sorry for the rant...I had 2¢ to spare this morning... Again, that is not really what happened here. The cacher got up early and went to find some caches. He arrived at the park. He did not see a sign with posted hours. He entered through an open gate and searched for the cache. Who among us would have done anything different? Quote Link to comment
+Davispak Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ok, I'm going to clarify some things on the whole trespassing issue. I will tell you again that more than likely, a municipality closes it's parks at dark to control any type of illegal activity in the park after hours. This is done mostly to deter people using the park to drink underage, use illegal drugs, having realtions,or to vandalize the park. Yes as a police officer, I have found many people in the parks after hours. I would say that between the hours of 10 p.m. and 5 a. m. the majority of people I found in parks were doing one of the above activities. On a very, very rare occasion, you may find someone during that time frame that was just walking the dog. Now most of these people that were doing something other than walking the dog would almost always lie as to why they were in the park. The trespassing law allows the police officer to approach and detain anyone found in a park after hours. One of the things I and fellow officers really did not like, and would almost always get you charged was to lie. So what I am saying is if you are approached by an officer and you are in the park Tell them what you are doing. Most will probably think it is something pretty cool and may even help you, but if they see you skulking around in the bushes and you give them some lame story, just be ready to tell your story to a judge. Quote Link to comment
+ParrotRobAndCeCe Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Shouldn't the onus be on the cache FINDER to make sure they are in a place they are allowed to be at a time they are allowed to be there, regardless of whether the park hours are posted on the cache page or at the place they chose to park / walk in? Ignorance of the rules is not a very good defense, is it? Quote Link to comment
+ParrotRobAndCeCe Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Shouldn't the onus be on the cache FINDER to make sure they are in a place they are allowed to be at a time they are allowed to be there, regardless of whether the park hours are posted on the cache page or at the place they chose to park / walk in? Ignorance of the rules is not a very good defense, is it? Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) ParrotRob- In response to your first post, as a cache seeker, if you don't see the hours posted and the gate is open, how do you know that the park is closed? In response to your second post, I totally agree with you, if the hours are posted at all access locations. Edited January 23, 2006 by sbell111 Quote Link to comment
+Elde Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 In response to your first post, as a cache seeker, if you don't see the hours posted and the gate is open, how do you know that the park is closed? For my part, I know the opening/closing hours of all the local parks (usually dawn-dusk) and I don't even bother looking outside of those hours. What bothers me is the folks who state "I didn't know the park was closed, the gate was open though", but who also don't seem to have made any effort to find out the park's hours. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) For my part, I know the opening/closing hours of all the local parks (usually dawn-dusk) and I don't even bother looking outside of those hours. I couldn't disagree with your post more. I don't know the hours that any parks around here are open. I certainly don't know the hours of any parks in towns that I may travel through. From other posts in this thread, many parks are open at times other than dawn-to-dusk. I may get up early to go caching and I may stay out late before I come home. What bothers me is the folks who state "I didn't know the park was closed, the gate was open though", but who also don't seem to have made any effort to find out the park's hours. I also disagree that extra effort should be taken to find out what the hours are. Most of the time, I don't know that I am going to a park until after I arrive, so I can't do research on these hours prior to arrival. At that point, if I don't see the hours posted as I enter a park, I'm going to assume that the open gate is evidence of an open park. Edited January 23, 2006 by sbell111 Quote Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 What bothers me is the folks who state "I didn't know the park was closed, the gate was open though", but who also don't seem to have made any effort to find out the park's hours. I for one am not going to go through hoops trying to find out what the park hours are. If i arrive and there is an open gate with no hours of operation signs to be seen, then im heading in. Quote Link to comment
+JohnnyVegas Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Rule and regulations. People drop their kids off at the school, and then turn left out of the driveway where there is a sign clearly stating, "NO LEFT TURN"... What are they teaching their children? People walk into a park where there is a sign stating "PARK HOURS: XXX-XXX" during an inappropriate time... Again, what are they teaching their children? We have guns for hunting, hubby hunts only during the days/times listed on the regulations, we lock our guns in a proper cabinet, with trigger locks, yet one of my friend's father is caught poaching... What did he teach his children? We have a whole society of people who do not respect the laws or each other's property or show any consideration for the next guy because the thinking is, "ALL ABOUT ME!!!" I am having a really hard time teching my children how to live in a society where (supposedly) adults don't "follow the rules"... Sorry for the rant...I had 2¢ to spare this morning... You forget people that have their dogs in areas that allow dogs if they are in a leash, but these stupidiots let their dogs run of leashes anyway. I was checking a cache on mine about a year ago in a lark park that allows dogs. I came across some people that had their dogs off leashes, they thought I was going to issue them some tickets. They thought I was a park ranger On of them was a cousin of mine the is a real Stupidiot, she told me she just got sited a week earlier Stupidiot From the words Stupid and Idiot, To be a fool...of lower IQ...lacking intelligence...bellow average...not capable of rational thought...one who demonstrates stupidity... That person is a real Stupidiot The Stupidiot forgot to put the batteries in his GPS Quote Link to comment
+Zzyzx Road Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thank you JV...I forgot that one... Perhaps I should have made my comment a "Slightly off-topic" one...my only point is, we (as a society) are inadvertently teaching our children (the next society - who will be the ones taking care of us in our last years!) that it is okay to break the law (however easily seen, read or otherwise) as long as you don't get caught. I too would have gone into a park if the signs had not been easily seen. But in the town I LIVE in, DAILY...I SEE things posted in many places. I know the sign there at our school says No Left Turn...I see it every day I drop my kids off. So do those other parents. Yet they still do it. And as far as a park at night - no way! Very early in the morning...probably, only if I saw others walking their dogs there too, because that would be the only reason I would be there in the first place. Quote Link to comment
Stearmandriver Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thank you JV...I forgot that one... Perhaps I should have made my comment a "Slightly off-topic" one...my only point is, we (as a society) are inadvertently teaching our children (the next society - who will be the ones taking care of us in our last years!) that it is okay to break the law (however easily seen, read or otherwise) as long as you don't get caught. I too would have gone into a park if the signs had not been easily seen. But in the town I LIVE in, DAILY...I SEE things posted in many places. I know the sign there at our school says No Left Turn...I see it every day I drop my kids off. So do those other parents. Yet they still do it. And as far as a park at night - no way! Very early in the morning...probably, only if I saw others walking their dogs there too, because that would be the only reason I would be there in the first place. Just to play devil's advocate a little - don't we also have a responsibility to teach our children to think for themselves, and don't we have a responsibility to do that ourselves as well? Should we always blindly adhere to something just because it's a law, or should we apply some common sense? We'd still be governed by the crown if, 230 years ago, folks in Boston had just shrugged and said, "well, that's the law." Hey, I'm not an anarchist. I agree some laws are necessary. But I'm sure we could agree on some that make no sense; do we have an obligation to just adhere to them anyway? I'm still personally miffed that my town thinks they have a right to restrict my access to property I'm part-owner of. It hasn't affected my use of the property, but I have philosophical problems with it! Joe Quote Link to comment
+gumbyatl92 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I think this situation is more of a question of discretion. The closing of parks was set up to stop illicit and clandestine activities. The point of closing parks at dark is to stop people from doing things in parks that are not to be done in parks (i.e. drugs, sex, alcohol, rock & roll). I have been in parks many times after hours and often times stopped by cops. The difference is that I have always been doing appropriate park activities and have never had a problem. The issue for me is whether or not these cachers were disturbing anyone or endangering themselves. If not, then I don't have a problem with it. As far as legal issues the whole game is based on littering and prowling and jay walking. We all just need to use discretion and try our best not to disturb anyone else. Quote Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 This might not apply to every state, county, or municipality. Some places allow for fines and jail time in some instances. Quote Link to comment
+WalruZ Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Just as an aside, I hate fenceline caches. Quote Link to comment
+Davispak Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ok, I think the real issue here is that GCing is a relatively new sport, yes it has been around for about 5 years but that is still pretty new when you think of other sports out there. Lets make a comparison of Gcing to another sport that has seen growing pains, Skateboarding. Skateboarding when it first was becoming a sport/hobby back in the seventies, people saw as just another fad that they didn't understandand and would die down like rollerskating. Except that Skaters kept skating and moved from parks, to sidewalks and malls and then to businesses. Soon they were no longer seen as just atheletes, but a nuisance, and people were no longer tolerant of them riding just anywhere they wanted. Laws were passed banning skating in areas, and even outlawed completely in some municipalities. With the introduction of the X-games, skating has been making a return to mainstream, but is still banned in places and casual skaters are still sometimes frowned upon. This has taken over 25 years for skating to go from being an activity done by juvenile deliquents to an accepted pastime/sport. Fast forward to today. You see several people running around in parks and around buildings after hours skulking in the shadows at all hours and one has even been arrested for placing a container under a bridge. Is this a harmless little hobby? Or is it something more. Will a terrorist read about GCing and use it as an excuse so that he can plant a bomb, instead of a tupperware box? Municipalities will start asking themselves this when WE (GC community) start coming into contact with law enforcement more and more as the sport grows. The question is do we want those encounters to be positive (YES!) or do we want them to start thinking of us as a nuisance and start banning our hobby/sport? So how can it be a positive encounter when the contact is made when we are already flaunting the local laws? Quote Link to comment
+LaughingTerry Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I was on Cape Cod Mass. one night trying to find a park where a cache had been hidden. The GPS said a road went through but it didn't so I drove over to a cop sitting in his car and asked how to find the park. After I explained what I was doing he told where the park was but that it was closed after dark. I Thanked him and said I would caome back another day but he grinned and said he was the officer on duty and wouldn't be coming to arrest me if I went on over. Now if I was over there having a party I imagine he would arrest or cite me. Quote Link to comment
+AbnSweetP Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I too am having a big problem with people in this area going into parks after hours. Recently a cache was posted at 3:30 pm, I got the notification at 3:45pm and as it was 1 mile from my house me and 6 year old daughter hopped in the car and went to the park to get it, we got there at 3:55 (have to drive over the mile to actually get to the parking) and walked to get it but it was almost 4:15 when I got within 20 feet of the cache...so I told her we'd have to come back at 8AM when they opened...since the gates would be locked (and the only other ways in were the railroad tracks or the paved trail that is dawn to dusk hours. Now there are signs all over the park perimeter that the park is monitored and is open from 8-4:30 and NO ONE is allowed on park premises after closing. Anyway, some dumba** local cacher who has no regards for rules/guidelines, as many in this area, logs the FTF and states that he found in the dark. Really upset my daughter as she wanted her first FTF and was going to do it before school the next day. I mean if we really wanted to get it sure, we could have stayed or snuck back in the park but I'm for the rules and I'm teaching them to my 6 yo...it was hard to explain why this cacher did what he did when she asked. Just venting.... Quote Link to comment
+Zzyzx Road Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 ...but I'm for the rules and I'm teaching them to my 6 yo...it was hard to explain why this cacher did what he did when she asked... Good for you! Rules are not always fair or in some cases, as Stearmandriver pointed out, reasonable. But if we all disreagard them just because we find them unfair... I agree, by the way with free-thinking. I also agree there are some laws that make no sense. Trust me, being in California (bad for agenda-trending) and also from an outdoorsy/hunting family (gun-owner) I have seen some doozies... But...when you ignore one, then it becomes easier to ignore another, or your children (who are inCREDIbly impressionable) do something they aren't supposed to and tell you, "But you didn't obey it when you...!" That's all I was getting at. No, I am not going to jump off the cliff without a parachute just because my local law/ordinance says so. But in the simple case of the left turn at school (it is a funky "Y" intersection with two stops and one right of way that lead either around a corner or into the driveway of the school AND it has two school crosswalks) it is a traffic hazard. Just turn right and go around the small block, or drop your kids on the other side of the school so you are heading the right direction when you leave. Quote Link to comment
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