Stearmandriver

Why not just call BS to his face the next time he brags about it? If it were me, I couldn't care less about him logging false finds to make himself feel better, but I couldn't abide working around someone talking smack all the time. In the first place it'd be annoying, and more importantly, is that a relationship that's safe at work? I don't know what you do, maybe it is in your case. I couldn't tolerate any deception though; we'd have to straighten that stuff out right quick. Why not just call him on it? If nothing else it'll shut him up.

Just to play devil's advocate a little - don't we also have a responsibility to teach our children to think for themselves, and don't we have a responsibility to do that ourselves as well? Should we always blindly adhere to something just because it's a law, or should we apply some common sense? We'd still be governed by the crown if, 230 years ago, folks in Boston had just shrugged and said, "well, that's the law." Hey, I'm not an anarchist. I agree some laws are necessary. But I'm sure we could agree on some that make no sense; do we have an obligation to just adhere to them anyway? I'm still personally miffed that my town thinks they have a right to restrict my access to property I'm part-owner of. It hasn't affected my use of the property, but I have philosophical problems with it! Joe

I reopened this just to see if I could. I have no idea why I have Moderation options on a thread a real mod closed... is that an error? No, I will not use this quirk to make any more comments. Just wanted to see if it worked. Topic reclosed, thanks for the debate y'all.

Hey, just noticed the reply. Thanks for looking, let me know if you notice anything. I did find a few questions about accuracy on a Delorme forum, and the explanation was usually that "no mapping data is perfect", and it's inevitable that some places will have less accuracy than others, due to their source data being off. I don't know why Garmin's maps are perfect then.

This is interesting, as I've had a few discussions with cops over park hours here in N IL recently. First, I can see the concern about admitting to geocaching while breaking a law - it could be a quick way to get caches banned there. If you just say you're out for a walk, however... I grew up in a rural area, and now that we live in the suburbs (blech!) I have been astounded to discover the parks close. I mean, how can they close? They're public property! Every tax payer owns them. That includes me, the way I look at it. So if I want to take my dog for a walk on my property at 2 in the morning, what's the problem? I get pretty nocturnal on my days off, and I really am regularly out there at that time of night. I've run into cops a few times. They couldn't care less - I'm one guy with a dog, not drunk or stoned. I'm a non-interest. The dog is the most harmless being that's ever lived - I mean an Oak tree is more dangerous. I had a cop stop to talk once, and play with the dog. He asked me if I was often out there that time of night, and was interested in hearing if I ever saw groups of kids there or anything. He just asked me to call them if I ever saw anything that didn't look right. He never once mentioned that I shouldn't be there, so I finally asked him if any of his coworkers would consider it a problem. He said no way, as long as I wasn't causing any problems, which I obviously don't. He further told me that technically, he's not sure he can even throw someone on foot out of the park. I guess they have clear dominion over the parking lots (which are gated after sunset anyway), but he didn't seem to think he even could bust someone just for being there. Who knows, maybe I just have some mellow local cops... but I'll never wrap my mind around the idea that you can close public property!

Oh for... So I suppose it's ok to put X-rated literature in a cache too? I mean, as long as there's no nudity on the cover. That has nothing to do with the OP, of course. Just couldn't resist pointing it out.

Actually, these tracts - and pretty much every tract I've ever seen, not that I'm a connoisseur of them - said exactly the thing you agree is a verbal assault. And what is a Markwell??

Yes, 'cause God save us from discussion! Go easy man, I take none of this personally and hope you don't either. It's just talking.

Lest people think I'm some neo-athiest after all this, I just wanted to offer my two cents on this too, Terry. Sounds great to me! A religious-themed cache on Church property makes perfect sense, it'd be a fun cache for people to find, and most importantly of course, it sounds like a great exercise for the kids. Have fun with it! Joe

You have half the picture. Suppression of other competing views is in and of itself the promotion of an agenda in two ways. First you have an agenda that views that the other persons agenda as something you don’t like and don’t want to see them express. Second you are in favor of one or more remaining agendas because by the removal of a specific viewpoint you are making the viewpoints you allow to remain more prominant. You don't have to pitch signs and leave tracts to promote your own agenda. You did it when you started this thread and I have no doubt you do it in many other ways. Honestly, where is the annoyance coming from here? Dude, I asked a question. I asked so if I see this again (which seems likely) I'll have an idea what the accepted course of action is. Someone was good enough to point out that the caching guidelines (which I should have checked before posting here) already adress this - pushing any agenda with a cache is a no-no. Question answered. But, what "agenda" could I possibly have been trying to promote here? Now (and completely unrelated to the original post), since you've chosen to get a little snippy here for some reason, let me tell ya a couple things: First, from an argumentative viewpoint, your logic is flawed in the above quote. You state an opinion as fact, when it is not. Picture this situation as a sliding scale, with the center being neutrality - what we're shooting for in this case. If someone artificially skews things to one side, a return to neutrality is not at all promotion of the opposite agenda. It is merely a return to neutrality. There's actually a classical philosophical debating point that states exactly this - I can't remember what it's called off-hand, but it's clear-cut. Just the way it is. Second, you'd be wise not to accuse people you know nothing about of something as serious as suppression of others' views. As it turns out, you couldn't be more off-base here. I've volunteered more than once on campaigns fighting for the right to express a viewpoint I personally didn't agree with. I'm all about personal freedoms, right up to the point where they start impinging on someone else's freedom. (That's not a commentary on the original topic, just a general observation about me.) I'd really love to know how else I promote my own agendas, since you seem to think you know so much about me and "have no doubt I do it in many other ways". Ya know, I briefly wondered as I was starting this topic if it was a good idea. I've heard the old saw about not talking religion or politics in polite conversation, but never put much stock in it myself. We're a civilized people - which means we should be able to discuss anything civilly. If we can't that's something we need to know about ourselves, so we can work on it. Thanks, Mahgnillig. Just to clarify for the others again, though: I wasn't complaining. I was just... asking. El Diablo, I could look up the caches, but I can answer your question now: the logs don't say anything about it. I looked myself when I logged my finds, out of curiosity. No one else mentioned it in their logs so I didn't either. Hey, I learned something out of all this anyway: Chick Tracts! What a perfect commentary on the shortening attention span of the modern world! Honestly, I thought they might have been feminist literature at first, though the name seemed odd in that case, so I had to look it up.

Dude, I love that! You're right, I'll have to find an educational tract of my own to trade out for. Maybe one that contrasts actual middle eastern history with... ah, never mind. I actually do have a use for these things if I trade for them - we sit outside around a fire most every summer evening I'm home, and it seems I can never find trash to start the fire with when I need it! Seriously, I thought I'd explained it right in my OP, but just let me make the point again: I am NOT talking about removing any item of religious significance, just because it's religious. I have seen that people use these as their calling cards, and I agree that, just because I don't want the rosary or whatever, someone else might. I really am referring to caches that have been stuffed to the gills with these (incredibly poorly written and illogical) fire and brimstone tracts. There's no question that this is someone trying to push their agenda. They've been in the same area too, suggesting it's probably the same individual or group doing this. Now, I am also confident in my personal beliefs. I couldn't care less about anyone else's religious beliefs. All I expect is the same courtesy in return. Using a simple and fun forum like caching to push this stuff seems very inappropriate. And from a practical point of view, really who in their right mind is going to experience a sudden philosophical paradigm shift by reading a scrap of cardboard hidden in a box? Nope, not at all. I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs. If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart. I don't do that. The absence of religious / philosophical / political tracts in a cache is not an agenda, it is the absence of agenda! So yes, if you can call the absence of agenda an agenda, that's my agenda. Didn't mean to start any kind of religious debate here, guys. I was really just curious if this was a widespread phenomenon, or a local one (guess I should have known the answer to that). If this thread degenerates into a disrespectful discussion of religion, I don't want the blame for that! Joe Edit: darn HTML tags...

Ah, simple. That probably would have occurred to me in another dozen caches or so. Thanks, it is the new SOP now.

Just curious about this: I've found a dozen or so caches now, and a couple of those have been stuffed to the gills with religious propaganda. Now, I'm not talking the odd rosary or church card, etc. I understand those are mementos of past visits, and might be interesting treasures for a future finder. What I'm talking about is finding multiple pamphlets someone stuffed in the same cache, apparently to tell me that I'm going to hell for not agreeing with him. You know the kind... real fire-and-brimstone stuff telling us we'd better be born again or else. Someone in my area has obviously made it their mission to seed local caches with this stuff. Now, everyone has their beliefs and that's cool. Using what is supposed to be a fun and harmless game/hobby as a forum for this kind of prostelytizing just strikes me as really inappropriate, though. I equate it with a paper version of spam email, and my first inclination is to treat it the same way and "delete" it, but it's not my stuff and it's not my cache. Just wondering if there's any guidelines on this, as I'm apparently likely to see it again in this area. Thanks, Joe

Wow, has this gotten ridiculously complicated. 2 quick thoughts: 1. Maybe a user poll would be appropriate on this? I know, I know, "it's not a democracy." Ok, but if a decent number of people want to see it approved, as represented by hard numbers in a poll, why not approve it? And that brings us to: 2. WHY IS THIS ANY KIND OF BIG DEAL? I can't believe it's made 7 pages of debate with no resolution. Here's a thought: approve the darn thing. Those that view the cache page and like it can seek the cache. Those that don't are free not to. Why do the moderators feel the need to make that decision for people? I mean, I'm a newbie and even I "screen" caches - I look at several and choose the ones most interesting to me. Why not list the darn thing and let people make their own decisions? I mean... it really is just a game. Right?

It's a shame that certain things have to be banned because there are those who would use them irresponsibly. I mean, I completely agree that the bans are appropriate because there's no doubt that some people would be irresponsible, but it's still a shame. I'm a homebrewer, and it's occurred to me what great swag a couple bottles of a really unique and tasty brew would make, but that's a big no-no, of course. Oh well... plenty of fun stuff that can't hurt anyone.

Just wondering if anyone knows what mapping datum Delorme uses for Street Atlas '06. There's usually about a 450ft discrepancy between the position on my Legend C and Delorme's coordinates. My GPSr matches perfectly with coordinates of known spots, and these match up with Garmin's Metroguide / Topo data exactly, but they all disagree with Delorme. Anyone else have this problem? If it is a datum issue (GPSr and Mapsource set to WGS84) how do you change this in Delorme? I can't find anything about datum at all in their help files. Thanks, Joe

Uh, no... but I'll bet he expects that, if he chooses to, no one's going to tell him he can't siphon that gas out of it and put it in his car, boat, plane, jet ski, lawn mower etc. It comes down to media companies (and that's what Garmin is - just like Xerox is really in the business of selling toner cartridges, I guess we know where Garmin makes most of their money!) somehow believing that they have the right to impose restrictions on how you use something you buy from them JUST BECAUSE IT'S DIGITAL. I don't think Subaru has any notions of demanding I keep my car in a garage. I don't think Hitatchi has any notions of telling me I can't view an adult DVD in my player if I choose (my wife on the other hand... ). So why does Garmin think they can tell us how we can use that software? I mean, if I purchase maps from them, those maps are MINE. I should be able to view them on any device I own, as often as I want, because I BOUGHT THEM. Just like, if I purchase a music CD, that music is MINE. If I want to dump it on my computer so I can listen to it here, that should be fine. If I want it on my mp3 player, that's my right. Obviously, I shouldn't be able to give it to someone else, because they didn't buy it, but it should be mine to do with what I want. Now, I'm sorry these companies are worried about piracy. Here's the thing, though: that's not my problem! They can attack piracy all they want (and should), but those attacks should in no way interefere with my legitimate use of their product! As Sony found with that XCD debacle, it only leads to problems in the end. (That was the single most heartwarming news story of last year, in my opinon!) Besides (and I kind of hate to point this out), if you ARE talking piracy, there's always a workaround. In this case, it comes in the form of a fairly simple ap called Garmwacker. It's kind of like gun control advocates claiming that more restrictions will keep weapons out of criminal hands. Silliness. Laws limiting gun ownership only limit the people who abide by the laws! Anyway, just my $.02. This idea of "limited-use ownership" has always driven me nuts, is all.

How, exactly, does logging time using a box to find a box factor into a discussion on human impacts of natural areas? If that's your only comment about my post, then IMHO... you aren't a very experienced debater. While I may not have as much caching experience as the next guy (which I readily admitted), I'll bet I've spent more time in the woods than most of the people here. I've worked and recreated at a wide variety of activities, in a wide variety of places (worked trail mx in the Olympics for a while, matter of fact), and since we aren't specifically having a geocaching discussion here, but a "people running around in the woods off-trail" discussion, my observations are more than valid. As far as the 2 caches I found in the dark... how do you think I found them in the dark? I was also surprised at how close both of them were to the airport, but there's not much of a security risk to that - there's really no commercial activity out of that place. And no, there really hasn't been any change to that area around the third cache - except for the improvements to the tow path, which I personally wish they hadn't done. Not sure how that's relevant either way. Thing is, Totem, I think you and I actually agree here. I was in a hurry on that last post so maybe I didn't make it clear, but I agree that leaving the trail is perfectly legitimate unless you're in an area that specifically prohibits it. I was just saying that there's a responsible way to do this, and an irresponsible one. The irresponsible way is to fall into the same mentality that so many other hobbyists do - fixating too much on the ultimate goal, at the expense of appreciating and preserving where you are.

The analogies DON'T work, as Kai said, because while the caching crowds aren't all taking exactly the same path (it'd be better if they were), they ARE all going to the same place. So you end up with a well-worn area, getting progressively more trampled the closer you get to ground zero. I've only found 3 caches so far, but, while well-hidden, none of them were challenges. If I'd been the first one there, maybe, but I didn't have to look around for good hiding spots or anything, I just followed the broken branches and (obviously not game) trails. I don't worry about this area much, because let's face it, northern IL is a lost cause, but it would be a shame to see this in somewhat pristine areas. Hunter tree stands, orienteering events etc. aren't the same either because they either involve only a couple of people using an area once a year, or a 1 time event that may do some damage, but is then over, allowing the area time to recover. It comes down to the difference between bushwacking and trailblazing, as someone else said. The difference between just plowing through a tangle of branches and leaving an elephant trail, or taking the extra 20 seconds to pick your way through carefully, leaving no obvious sign. The desert is actually one of the most fragile environments in the country, especially riparian areas in canyons.

I have heard of working Metroguide copies... older ones, version 3 I believe. I've also heard that City Select is proving harder... ;-) As for autorouting, I'm a newb myself, but I can tell you that the Etrex Legend and Legend C will do it. My Legend C will auto-route along the streets in the basemap, but ignore the extra roads added by Metroguide and Topo - which makes sense, since these programs don't support autorouting with their data. I guess City Select does, and beyond that... well, I'm still trying to figure all this out myself!

Delorme Street Atlas 2006 works with my Legend C, through the standard USB cable. Everything on the internet seems to contradict this, tells me I need GPSgate or something, but all I did was plug my GPS into the USB on my computer, start up Street Atlas 2006, and click on the GPS tab, and voila, connected and good to go. I can also transfer data, waypoints and such, back and forth.

Topo maps transfer from PC to GPS no problem, no unlock codes required, the versions floating around P2P networks work just fine. I mean, ya know, I've heard....

Hell yes, I love poking around outside at night. For those who aren't used to it, it can make a familiar area seem like a whole different world. Sounds like great fun...

Actually, though some some wilderness ban geocaching, others have no problem with geocaches. Considering that the Wilderness Act allows for prospecting, mining, power lines, grazing animals and drilling, and camping and horseback riding are accepted uses, geocaching is rather benign in comparison. Well, I suppose because the folks hiking in the backcountry of a national park didn't make the walk out there to find a piece of tupperware. I understand they should be concealed, but obviously any activity has some people that are more conscientious than others about following the rules. Also, it's inevitable that caches will be abandoned occasionally, and then this stuff is left out there. Actually, that's the point of the sport, isn't it? That this stuff is left out there? I'm here, of course, because this sport sounds like fun, so I don't mean to take such a negative stance. I just think it's important that our last remaining areas that even approach wilderness (obviously there's no real wilderness left) remain as wild as possible. It's impossible to succeed completely at that, but one easy way seems to be not intentionally leaving tupperware in them. I'm surprised any wilderness areas allow caching; it seems contrary to their charter. The exemptions allowing prospecting, mining, drilling, etc. that you mentioned expired in 1984. Grazing still takes place, and there is an obscure provision in the act allowing for utilization of water resources in wilderness areas, but that's about it. (More exemptions apply in AK, but that's beyond the scope here.) But that's enough land use debate here for me. Like you said, whether caching is allowed or not, its impact is fairly minor compared to so many other things that happen every day, so my own personal feelings on the issue just aren't that important! Plus, I start a four day trip tomorrow, and I suppose this thread will be dead by the time I get home. See y'all... Joe edit: typo

And that's exactly what it does. Mystery solved, thanks Peter. Using the Street Atlas routes seems to work pretty good. Like you said, it doesn't seem to follow the roads exactly, but plenty close enough. Good enough for what I'll do with it anyway. Joe