Electrical Box Caches?

[+humanloofa]

Before I get the responses from my previous post I wish to clarify something. I personaly have no problem being aroung high voltage or any voltage for that matter, I have been trained in electrical safety and work around it all the time. It was my intention to inform you of some of the design and safety features on the transformers and disconects. If you are not comfortable with you or your children being around them do not go near them.

[tossedsalad]

Sigh...I can't believe I'm saying this , but...Tossedsalad, you're absolutely right.

Perks, I knew you'd see the light sooner or later... from one of those three eyes!

[+Ivan Awfulitch]

I just did a cache today that was disguised to looke like an electrical box on the side of a light pole on the other side from a real electrial box.  Once I looked at it and decided it was a possible cache, it was not hard to check it out safely.  I didn't even have to use any tools!!! 

 

Personally I don't get all the fuss.  Of course there can be people who pry open things they shouldn't and get hurt as a consequence.  In my book this is no different from a cache that was recently discussed because it was on the underside of a manhole cover.  Some felt it should not be allowed due to the danger of dropping the manhole cover on fingers or toes (very, very serious if it happens).  But you can reach the cache without lifting the manhole cover by puting your arm in through the storm drain.  Anyone who decides they need to lift the manhole cover must take responsibility for their action, not the cache hider. 

 

In the same way, if you are looking for a cache, you must look safely.  Even if the cache is a very safe cache, in a very safe location, you can be injured if you look for it unsafely!  If there are any real dangers that are actually part of recovering a cache, then by all means, list them clearly and rate the cache appropriately. 

 

But I don't agree that electrical box caches have any inherent danger if placed appropriately.

Actually, placing anything on the underside of a manhole cover would be considered criminal tampering of a public utility and criminal tresspassing in the state of Ohio and many others. Unless you actually owned the manhole and it was on your property, there's no way that any city or utility would allow this, as they would then be liable for any injuries. And I believe there is a rule about having permission to place a cache first. I agree, it's all about using common sense, but unfortunatly today common sense is anything but common.

Edited October 16, 2005 by Ivan Awfulitch

[+Jake81499]

I have a radio site on top of a hill near here. There is no electricity within 1/4 mile of the radio site. The site is solar powered with no outgoing wiring. There is a very old shot up electrical box on the broken off pole about 30 yards from the site. The box has no lid, no wires, no nothing. Yet the reviewer refused to approve the site because it was in an electrical box. I got discusted with that one sooo bad that I archived the site and probly won't set any caches for a while. This one is a "You Got To Be Kidding." Everything about it is safe. You are more likely to be eaten by a fictional Nauga than shocked at that site. And it is sooo obvious that there is no power there that it's scary.

 

Disgusted...

 

Jake81499

[+sbell111]

I have a radio site on top of a hill near here. There is no electricity within 1/4 mile of the radio site. The site is solar powered with no outgoing wiring. There is a very old shot up electrical box on the broken off pole about 30 yards from the site. The box has no lid, no wires, no nothing. Yet the reviewer refused to approve the site because it was in an electrical box. I got discusted with that one sooo bad that I archived the site and probly won't set any caches for a while. This one is a "You Got To Be Kidding." Everything about it is safe. You are more likely to be eaten by a fictional Nauga than shocked at that site. And it is sooo obvious that there is no power there that it's scary.

 

Disgusted...

 

Jake81499

Your reviewer was likely wrong. Appeal the decision if you want the cache listed.

Edited April 17, 2008 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm FINALLY seeing some recommend labeling their hides or putting a description in the listing...THANK-YOU!!

 

If done properly, I suppose one of these might be OK....it's when a newb or even any cacher who just wants to copy a cache (seen this before). Maybe YOU took the time to assure a safe find, will the next?? I've seen cachers do STUPID things, things like opening covers with screwdrivers. I've seen cachers use tools to search for a fake bolt too...and find real bolts instead!

 

As someone said, how would you feel if YOUR hide killed someone?? Even if you DID try to make it safe??

 

All that's needed are some good instructions or a sticker...in most cases. Making the cache a bit easier if around potential dangers as this MIGHT be a good idea too, cachers get crazy when hunting for extended periods of time...and take chances on occasion! Some caches should never be placed. ALSO, how about permission? I'm doubtful any company would give permission around real equipment.

 

There are exceptions, we placed one in a CABLE box (note, NO electrical equipment, just cable for the TV). We attached it to the side of a building where there was NO wiring at all. It was safe and well received, but we took it down after seeing some "less-than-safe" hides of this manner!

Edited April 17, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

I'm FINALLY seeing some recommend labeling their hides or putting a description in the listing...THANK-YOU!! ...

Finally?

 

This thread is three years old.

Edited April 17, 2008 by sbell111

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm FINALLY seeing some recommend labeling their hides or putting a description in the listing...THANK-YOU!! ...

Finally?

 

This thread is three years old.

 

Oh, SURE...test me when I'm sicker than a dog!!

[+Jake81499]

 

Your reviewer was likely wrong. Appeal the decision if you want the cache listed.

 

I did appeal and got no answer. I picked the cache up this evening and will grab the coins.

 

I did see lightning hit this pole in 2000 while I was working at the site. I guess that makes this box dangerous. I was going to take a picture and post it but forgot my phone in the truck. Anyhow, the shack was originally a TV relay for the town of Wamsutter Wyoming. It was dismantled after vandals shot it up about 30 years ago. The electricity and all the lines to the pole and shack were removed shortly thereafter. BLM wanted me to leave the pole standing for the Raptors to nest after I took over the lease. So, there has been no power or power lines to this radio shack for at least 30 years. Time and hunters have degraded the condition of the pole and box. I was mystaken when I said the lid was gone. The lid is still there. The nearest electical lines are 1/3 of a mile away, I measured it.

 

I hope this isn't setting a precedence. Pretty soon we won't be able to set caches under rocks because there might be a snake or in a bush because there might be thorns. I was concidering placing a cache in a fake electrical outlet sticking out of the ground on a piece of conduit on the edge of some property I own in the middle of the desert 5 miles from ANY electricity. I guess that's nixed.

 

Discusted,

 

Jake81499

[+Renegade Knight]

...How does a person know for sure it is a cache?...

 

Why would you open it if you weren't sure? That would be unsafe.

[+Confucius' Cat]

 

Your reviewer was likely wrong. Appeal the decision if you want the cache listed.

 

I did appeal and got no answer. I picked the cache up this evening and will grab the coins.

 

I did see lightning hit this pole in 2000 while I was working at the site. I guess that makes this box dangerous. I was going to take a picture and post it but forgot my phone in the truck. Anyhow, the shack was originally a TV relay for the town of Wamsutter Wyoming. It was dismantled after vandals shot it up about 30 years ago. The electricity and all the lines to the pole and shack were removed shortly thereafter. BLM wanted me to leave the pole standing for the Raptors to nest after I took over the lease. So, there has been no power or power lines to this radio shack for at least 30 years. Time and hunters have degraded the condition of the pole and box. I was mystaken when I said the lid was gone. The lid is still there. The nearest electical lines are 1/3 of a mile away, I measured it.

 

I hope this isn't setting a precedence. Pretty soon we won't be able to set caches under rocks because there might be a snake or in a bush because there might be thorns. I was concidering placing a cache in a fake electrical outlet sticking out of the ground on a piece of conduit on the edge of some property I own in the middle of the desert 5 miles from ANY electricity. I guess that's nixed.

 

Discusted,

 

Jake81499

Not to speak for the reviewer or nothing, but heshe might be considering that a potential seeker might not know that there is no electric for 1/3 mile. Much electricity is run underground and the absence of wires does not guarantee the absence of electrical service.

 

Fake electrical box caches are nothing new or unique. There are many of them out there. That there is some new prohibition on approving them is a new one on me though.

 

Judging from recent threads, i wouldn't expect much explanation in the forums- ambuiguity on the guidelines seems to be the rule.

 

To the larger question:

 

If there is something you want to showcase on the land in question, why not just put an ammo box in a hollow tree?

 

If there's nothing worth seeing in the area, why would anyone want to fiddle around with a bunch of shot-up electrical ruins just to say, "wow, a fake electrical box?"

[+Dread_Pirate_Bruce]

In as much as this old thread has been revived, my thoughts are as follows:

 

The issue is not whether your cache replicates an electrical box, but rather whether your cache, whatever it looks like, is near a real electrical box such that someone might mess with a real one. Consider a cache that looks like an electrical box, which is hidden a mile from the nearest electricity. There is no chance of anyone being electrocuted while searching for it. The same goes for an ammo can at the same location. But, what if one hides a cache that looks like a lawn sprinkler and it is 15 feet from a real electric box? Someone looking for the cache might not find it and might think the electric box was the cache. The sprinkler at that location is as dangerous as a fake electric box. So, the issue isn't what the cache looks like, but rather its proximity to live electricity.

 

All of which brings me to the next question: When we make a cache hard to find, are we making it hard for cachers to find or hard for muggles to stumble on?

 

Sometimes, a cache is hard to find because it is located somewhere where there are lots of good places it might be hidden. The difficulty is in checking each spot. Sometimes, a cache is made hard to find because if it weren't, it would be muggled. But, is there a good reason to make a cache hard to find just to make it hard to find?

[+Renegade Knight]

... the issue isn't what the cache looks like, but rather its proximity to live electricity....

 

I'm pretty close to live electricity as I type this on my computer. That's not the issue at all.

That electrical box could be (and often is) in a playground. So proximity to the public isn't an issue either.

Your sole issue is that people will take apart a sealed electrical box looking for a cache without knowing it's the cache. The same people who can fix the wiring in their own house with nobody looking over their shoulder.

 

You have to trust that people are smart enough to get by in the world. There have been electrical boxes in the world exposed for all the world to mess with long before caching. I can't say that some cacher somewhere won't be stupid but I can say that most cachers most places won't be. In other words, it's a no more an issue than it was before caching came along.

[+Jake81499]

... the issue isn't what the cache looks like, but rather its proximity to live electricity....

 

I'm pretty close to live electricity as I type this on my computer. That's not the issue at all.

That electrical box could be (and often is) in a playground. So proximity to the public isn't an issue either.

Your sole issue is that people will take apart a sealed electrical box looking for a cache without knowing it's the cache. The same people who can fix the wiring in their own house with nobody looking over their shoulder.

 

You have to trust that people are smart enough to get by in the world. There have been electrical boxes in the world exposed for all the world to mess with long before caching. I can't say that some cacher somewhere won't be stupid but I can say that most cachers most places won't be. In other words, it's a no more an issue than it was before caching came along.

 

And so, why would someone want to crawl out on the edge of a cliff to retrieve a cache? Why would someone want to reach down a badger hole to retrieve a cache? How about going into a small cave or probing around in a spider bush or crawling around under a rock overhang. I worry much more about going into a private yard to reach a cache than many other more dangerous conditions and there's a growing number of those. I wish I'd had my camera with me today. A picture is worth a thousand words, everyone seeing the cache location would have said, "Yep, it's safe." But no big deal. The cache is archived and it's too muddy to head back out there for a picture. Yes there was something to see here at this location. It had a fairly good story about the history of the site and a fantastic view. There isn't a tree within 30 miles. But Oh, Well...

 

Jake81499

[+sbell111]

Your reviewer was likely wrong. Appeal the decision if you want the cache listed.

I did appeal and got no answer. I picked the cache up this evening and will grab the coins.

 

I did see lightning hit this pole in 2000 while I was working at the site. I guess that makes this box dangerous. I was going to take a picture and post it but forgot my phone in the truck. Anyhow, the shack was originally a TV relay for the town of Wamsutter Wyoming. It was dismantled after vandals shot it up about 30 years ago. The electricity and all the lines to the pole and shack were removed shortly thereafter. BLM wanted me to leave the pole standing for the Raptors to nest after I took over the lease. So, there has been no power or power lines to this radio shack for at least 30 years. Time and hunters have degraded the condition of the pole and box. I was mystaken when I said the lid was gone. The lid is still there. The nearest electical lines are 1/3 of a mile away, I measured it.

 

I hope this isn't setting a precedence. Pretty soon we won't be able to set caches under rocks because there might be a snake or in a bush because there might be thorns. I was concidering placing a cache in a fake electrical outlet sticking out of the ground on a piece of conduit on the edge of some property I own in the middle of the desert 5 miles from ANY electricity. I guess that's nixed.

 

Discusted,

 

Jake81499

Not to speak for the reviewer or nothing, but heshe might be considering that a potential seeker might not know that there is no electric for 1/3 mile. Much electricity is run underground and the absence of wires does not guarantee the absence of electrical service. ...

I took another quick read of the guidelines and I can't find anything about seekers not knowing that there is or isn't electricity. In fact, I can't find anything that would result in this cache (as presented in this thread) not being listed.

If there's nothing worth seeing in the area, why would anyone want to fiddle around with a bunch of shot-up electrical ruins just to say, "wow, a fake electrical box?"

I didn't see anything about teh cache not being listed because it's location doesn't excite Confucious' Cat, either.

[+Jake81499]

I didn't see anything about teh cache not being listed because it's location doesn't excite Confucious' Cat, either.

 

Yea, that is a funny one. Although it is fun to go places and see things of interest, to me it's more about the numbers. I'm competing with myself to see how many I can get in a day and to get my numbers up to the top ten in my area. About 80% of the caches I've found were on nothing or nowhere ground with nothing to see. 'It's all about the numbers.' is a favorite signature of many cachers.

 

When I set a cache, I much prefer to write a 'campfire story' rather than something about the tree the cache is setting next to. My favorite lines are something to do with global warming, which is called 'Spring' around here. In fact, the cache with the power box was the only one I can think of where I actually wrote a history out of 43 hides. (Two have been archived so it's 41.)

 

By the way, last summer, I saw, (AND took pictures of) 75 rattle snakes around, near and AT caches I was seeking. Two of the worst cases were in Casper Wyoming. One was at Birds Eye View at the Casper Community College where I actually stepped on the snake just 5 feet from the cache. I didn't find the cache that day because I thought it was in the same bush the rattler was going into. The second was at a Park in a Casper Suburb where I didn't retrieve the cache because there were dozens of molting rattle snakes all in the same hiding spot as the cache and on the lawn around the cache. This one was where I stopped a Sherriff and reported it. Anyhow, If you check some of my cache reports from last summer you may see some pictures of the snakes. That's one of the many reasons I concider a shotup, broken lid, leaning, empty, no power lines to or from, miles from nowhere, not another building for 1/4 mile in any direction, power box one of the safest caches hiding places around.

 

Jake81499

[+Confucius' Cat]

If there's nothing worth seeing in the area, why would anyone want to fiddle around with a bunch of shot-up electrical ruins just to say, "wow, a fake electrical box?"

I didn't see anything about teh cache not being listed because it's location doesn't excite Confucious' Cat, either.

Not about whether or not it meets guidelines or even if it SHOULD be published.

 

Basically, you can throw a film can with holes in it and a piece of already damp construction paper inside for a log book into the pit of slop under the seat of an outhouse next to a live, open, high voltage transformer with a sign that says "look for cache inside" and it WILL be published if GC simply sticks to their guidelines.

 

But should you, as a potential cache placer, place such a cache?

 

That was the nature of my comment. It is not that it "excites confucius' Cat" but that the potential hider should perhaps (just perhaps, that's all- nothing more than PERHAPS - no mandate intended, try not to read a mandate into it) consider whether heshe SHOULD place a cache where heshe is thinking about placing it.

 

Is considering whether one SHOULD place a cache such a horrible consideration? Or do you enjoy looking for film cans in piles of manure?

[+Jake81499]

 

But should you, as a potential cache placer, place such a cache?

 

Is considering whether one SHOULD place a cache such a horrible consideration? Or do you enjoy looking for film cans in piles of manure?

 

In placing a cache, if it's in any kind of dangerous situation, it's not only the person setting the cache responcibility to assess the dangers but it's also the person retreaving the cache. I've seen a few that I didn't want to go after and didn't. I personally don't like dams for instance. If the cache is at the base of a dam or even in eyeshot, I refuse to retrieve it. Was it the responcibility of the person setting the cache to concider my feelings towards dams? Same with the manure pile, if the smell offends you, don't retrieve it. Somebody else will find it and you'll just be out one number. If you're scared of an empty open broken electical box with no wires inside or out, just go on to the next ammo box under a bush full of spiders, ticks and snakes and we'll all be happy.

 

By the way, I do know of a cache in a manure pin about 100 miles from here and it stunk to high Heaven when I signed the log.

 

Jake81499

[+thedeadpirate]

I'm sure it's there, but I can't find the safety section of the guidelines. I've just read over the guidelines a couple times. However, I am bad about missing something until right after I make a butt of myself by asking. Can someone please quote the pertinent section?

[+Confucius' Cat]

 

But should you, as a potential cache placer, place such a cache?

 

Is considering whether one SHOULD place a cache such a horrible consideration? Or do you enjoy looking for film cans in piles of manure?

 

In placing a cache, if it's in any kind of dangerous situation, it's not only the person setting the cache responcibility to assess the dangers but it's also the person retreaving the cache. I've seen a few that I didn't want to go after and didn't. I personally don't like dams for instance. If the cache is at the base of a dam or even in eyeshot, I refuse to retrieve it. Was it the responcibility of the person setting the cache to concider my feelings towards dams? Same with the manure pile, if the smell offends you, don't retrieve it. Somebody else will find it and you'll just be out one number. If you're scared of an empty open broken electical box with no wires inside or out, just go on to the next ammo box under a bush full of spiders, ticks and snakes and we'll all be happy.

 

By the way, I do know of a cache in a manure pin about 100 miles from here and it stunk to high Heaven when I signed the log.

 

Jake81499

So you have duly considered whether or not you should place the cache and decided in the affirmative.

 

Thanks for considering. That was all i asked. Too many cachers don't IMO.

[fishdirt]

Man, definitions of common sense are way off base here. Kind of funny.

 

Anywho, a couple thoughts.

 

1) If they cause so much controversy why place them? Obviously they are not too original or creative. So what's the draw? That sick enjoyment one gets from watching a car race and hoping someone crashes? Or is it lack of places in metropolitan areas?

 

2) By not stating a safety policy I would think Ground speak is releasing itself from libel should a suit from serious injury or death occur. You wouldn't think it but the cache placer could be sued should something like this happen. Just as you can sue an amusement park for injury on a ride you know is potentially dangerous.

 

Common sense has nothing to do with knowing what is or is not an electrical box. Common sense either could be and the real could have been pried open, forgotten to be locked prior to the discovery. Common sense tells you, do I really want to harm another in a way they can kill them. Of course it may not and they may be safe and everyone else but electricity, like fire, is unpredictable and dangerous. As someone has said though, their here and nothing will make them leave. I believe living a code number in the hints or a tip to the right one is smart.

 

As far as anyone asking permission to plant caches. Seems around here that's the rarity as I see them in cemeteries, LPC, public accesses run by county parks departments and see no permission was acquirred. Bottom line, people are gonna do what people are going to do.

[+Jake81499]

1) If they cause so much controversy why place them? Obviously they are not too original or creative. So what's the draw? That sick enjoyment one gets from watching a car race and hoping someone crashes? Or is it lack of places in metropolitan areas?

 

It doesn't matter when where why or how someone places a cache. Someone else is going to complain. "I had to walk up a hill." "It was in a bush with thorns." "I had to use a screwdriver to open it." "It wasn't original or creative." "There was a spider in that open broken wireless shotup empty power box." " What's the draw?"

 

If you don't want to walk up that hill, get stuck by a thorn, use a screwdriver, see a spider or stick you hand in an open broken wireless shotup empty powerbox with no draw and isn't original or creative then don't and let those of us who do, do it. Common sence works two ways and one person's common sence may not conform to anothers.

 

Jake81499.

[+GIDEON-X]

All in All..............I personally feel this is all to do about nothing. I have used the E. Boxes as containers over the years..........no problems. At this point in time I have a series of Access caches, and three of them are in E. Boxes.

 

I did get a call from the local PD on one of these. Concerned Citizens, thought that it was a drug drop or some such, (all the comings and goings) (taking goods / leaving goods). It took all of twenty minutes to get this matter taken care of.............

This-One ---- The biggest problem / surprise is the inabilty of the folks that can't do the High-School Math. to get the Access Number......................

[Harold14370]

I was thinking about doing one of these stuck to a metal pole with a magnet. Then I thought about what would happen if it got knocked loose or crooked. Somebody would probably report it to the park authorities or the utility company as a possible safety hazard. I decided against it.

[+Glenn]

This-One

 

Wow! A rusty old box on a common cinder block wall.

[+Confucius' Cat]

This thread was originally opened THREE YEARS AGO regarding perceived safety issues with caches that, although real electrical boxes, are harmless because there is no real electricity in them.

 

The gist of the argument of the OP being that one could open a live box by mistake.

 

When one finds a cache disguised as an electrical box or sprinkler head or whatever common item, it DOES set a precedent in that cacher's mind and when they are about to give up on a cache they might think, "Hey, I've found caches in fake boxes before... I wonder if this is one of them..." and they could (if they are not particularly smart) open a real electrical box by mistake.

 

Whether or not the REAL cache which that cacher found was anywhere near real electricity is irrelevant.. monkey see cache look like electrical box *oo-oo*... now all electrical boxes look like cache in monkey's eye *oo-oo*.

 

If one has intelligence greater than monkey, most likely there will be no problem.

 

This horse has been beaten to death in several subsequent threads.

 

The issue in this resurrection appears to be that a cache has been denied publication because it is in a dead electrical box.

 

I agree with Sbel111 that there is nothing in the guidelines that should prevent its being published (unless the guidelines are being re-interpreted without being re-written as seems to be the case with "agendas" and potentially non-PC statements on cache pages.)

 

I would suggest that perhaps the best way to get the cache in question published would be to archive the existing proposal and resubmit it with the cache description simply "traditional cache at listed coordinates." There is no reason at all to mention the electrical boxes.

[fishdirt]

I got to thinking about this today while caching. A lot of nature cache hiders put caches in holes in trees and fallen logs. I saw quite a few snakes today and one of the caches was clearly stated as being in the hole of a fallen tree. So I carefully looked into the trees i saw that were fallen and had holes. Still couldn't find it but I was reminded of yesterday when I thought a cache was behind some dead grass stuffed in a hole in a tree. I went to remove the grass and got the shock of my life. A little snout popped out. So my deducing came to this, I had more of a chance of getting ravaged by some wild animal then getting electrocuted by unfenced boxes.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I had more of a chance of getting ravaged by some wild animal then getting electrocuted by unfenced boxes.

 

Heck you probably would be ravaged by wild targs after you reached into a hole and fried your self on an underground cable chewed up by rodents. That's the thing. When you put soft chewy plastic cables underground you teach rodents to chew them up.

[+Jake81499]

...I had more of a chance of getting ravaged by some wild animal then getting electrocuted by unfenced boxes.

 

Heck you probably would be ravaged by wild targs after you reached into a hole and fried your self on an underground cable chewed up by rodents. That's the thing. When you put soft chewy plastic cables underground you teach rodents to chew them up.

 

It's those darn Naugas that scare the crud out of me. You never know where they are going to show up, and they do bite.

 

I am going to rewrite the cache that was denied as fiction. Fiction always gets published. I'll take a picture of the cache location tomorrow and post it. I'm going to make it a little more obvious that there is no power here.

 

Jake81499

[+PhxChem]

Wow! A rusty old box on a common cinder block wall.

 

But what if the most amazing thing is just out of frame?

[+Rockin Roddy]

This-One

 

Wow! A rusty old box on a common cinder block wall.

 

Identifying the container like this is just what I've been saying. Thank-you for this. I'd have little problem with finding a cache as this, and I'd be a lot happier if more people acted responsibly like you did!

[+btgeocacher]

I have been reading the messages here for several weeks and was surprised to see people have made caches out of electrical boxes. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened what you thought was a cache only to find it was actually a REAL electrical box. Maybe I am out of line here but in my opinion I do not think it is to smart to design a cache like that.

 

How does a person know for sure it is a cache?

 

Suppose their screw driver slips on a real electrical box and they are electocuted?

 

Does anyone else have these concerns?

 

Please educate me on how and why this is a safe cache.

 

Speaking as a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer let me say I have HUGE concerns about using such boxes. I think they should be banned outright. Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges. Well, few folks get to see the equivalent "meatball" films showing what happens when electrical equipment arcs over or faults. I have. The physical forces, power and heat from such is awesome. Most folks just worry about touching "live wires" and getting a shock. That may be the least of your worries. If disturbing such a box caused a fault, you could be hurt or killed and never even come in contact with the electricity. It happened to me when I was 18 years old and messing with an electrical box I shouldn't have been messing with. It flashed over and I was badly burned though I didn't contact the wires at all. I couldn't see for several minutes because the brilliance of the fireball "bleached" the rods/cones in my retina. Fortunately I didn't have any lasting visual impairment.

 

The other problem I have with such caches it that even if our own clever design causes no harm, what does that teach the finder about possible hiding places? What if down the road your clever hide causes the cacher to fool around with other such boxes because of what he "learned" from yours? In my opinion, every cacher out there that has one of these boxes is at least morally culpable in some small measure for any such injury that comes from a cacher poking into an electrical box. Now a cacher might anyway even if there were no such hides around but it is clear that having ever found one such hide, they will be more likely to investigate such boxes in the future. To me that makes you an "accessory before the fact" of any such injury if you do such hides. The lawyers may not get you if it wasn't YOUR cache but you have to live with your conscience. This is the problem I have with caches that are even clearly labeled as some of the ones depicted in this thread. Sure, they've taken care of themselves but they still teach the cacher that finds them to consider others that are similar, labeled or not. Labeling, in my opinion, while a step in the right direction is just inadequate to be worth the risk of contributing even indirectly to another's injury.

 

And the other posters are right. It doesn't matter what kind of disclaimers you can appeal to. Just ask any homeowner with a swimming pool in the back yard about the "attractive nuisance" doctrine of tort law. You can be sued anytime for anything. I submit that hiding a cache in a place that otherwise "looks" like some place you shouldn't be poking into is simply a foolish risk from a legal point of view. So rather than "let the hunter beware" I think it is at least as equally true that "let the hider beware." Attractive nuisance doctrine will hold them, not the hunter at fault. I wouldn't advise taking on that risk. There are just too many other good options for hiding things. Steer clear from electrical enclosures of any kind.

 

-dB

A concerned Electrical Professional

Edited April 20, 2008 by btgeocacher

[+Renegade Knight]

I have been reading the messages here for several weeks and was surprised to see people have made caches out of electrical boxes. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened what you thought was a cache only to find it was actually a REAL electrical box. Maybe I am out of line here but in my opinion I do not think it is to smart to design a cache like that.

 

How does a person know for sure it is a cache?

 

Suppose their screw driver slips on a real electrical box and they are electocuted?

 

Does anyone else have these concerns?

 

Please educate me on how and why this is a safe cache.

 

Speaking as a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer let me say I have HUGE concerns about using such boxes. I think they should be banned outright....

 

If they are so poorly designed that an actual box poses so much threat that you have grave concerns over a marked and harmless caching version, I'd have to think that perhaps the problem is the crappy design of the real boxes.

 

If you have made peace between the danger of live electrical boxes and the public benefit of having them, then perhaps you should focus on real issues like suggesting the caching box be marked in some way so a cacher knows.

 

As for cachers taking apart something they are unsure about to find a cache. Don't. Simple enough. Works for boxes, works for sprinklers.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Confucius' Cat]

I have been reading the messages here for several weeks and was surprised to see people have made caches out of electrical boxes. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened what you thought was a cache only to find it was actually a REAL electrical box. Maybe I am out of line here but in my opinion I do not think it is to smart to design a cache like that.

 

How does a person know for sure it is a cache?

 

Suppose their screw driver slips on a real electrical box and they are electocuted?

 

Does anyone else have these concerns?

 

Please educate me on how and why this is a safe cache.

 

Speaking as a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer let me say I have HUGE concerns about using such boxes. I think they should be banned outright....

 

If they are so poorly designed that an actual box poses so much threat that you have grave concerns over a marked and harmless caching version, I'd have to think that perhaps the problem is the crappy design of the real boxes.

 

If you have made peace between the danger of live electrical boxes and the public benefit of having them, then perhaps you should focus on real issues like suggesting the caching box be marked in some way so a cacher knows.

 

As for cachers taking apart something they are unsure about to find a cache. Don't. Simple enough. Works for boxes, works for sprinklers.

Undoubtedly the impetus is NOW with the seeker since the genie is out of the bottle. Electrical box caches exist adn people have learned already. There is no way to unlearn everybody from thinking "the electrical box MIGHT be the cache."

 

So a simple rule FOR THE SEEKER to follow is - IF IT IS NOT CLEARLY MARKED SO THAT YOU KNOW IT IS A GEOCACHE DON'T OPEN IT. (and leave your screwdriver and bolt cutters at home.)

 

Live electrical boxes are in fact extremely hazourdous if opened. There is pretty much universal agreement on that point. NOT opening electrical boxes of unknown energization is the ONLY sensible course of action.

 

Now if we can just teach "sense" to the general public...

[+Renegade Knight]

... a simple rule FOR THE SEEKER to follow is - IF IT IS NOT CLEARLY MARKED SO THAT YOU KNOW IT IS A GEOCACHE DON'T OPEN IT....

 

Agreed

 

A good rule for the hider. Mark the box/sprinkler head/whatever such that a cacher will know they are looking at a cache when they catch the clue.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+Jake81499]

Here's where I had mine hid. I put it cack in so you all could see where it was.

 

This is my APRS site. I've had it since 1998 or 99. I changed the call letters to N7ZEF and turned the legals over to him. These are full sized photos!

 

The site.

 

 

The Box

 

 

The Pole.

 

 

It's really scary, there might be a Nauga in there.

 

Jake81499

[+Laineybug]

I haven't had any cachers complain about my electrical box type hides here is one

The site

The container

The cache with magnets in center top and bottom

 

This cache has been received well in the area. Not sure what all the fuss is. Common sense goes a long way.

[+Jake81499]

Darn, ALL THAT and I FORGOT to bring the cache home!

 

Anyhow, as you can see by my HUGE pictures that the cache I named Wind Generators (GC19B5M) is by far more dangerous. At Wind Generators the cacher is required to retrieve the cache while standing in the open air. This could be deadly. Who knows what is in that air.

 

Nuff Said, A picture is worth a million words.

 

Jake81499

[+K T S]

I agree with btgeocacher, this is not a good idea. This weekend I took the kids out and coordinates led us to a pole with 2 electrical boxes, one locked and the other open. Well the open one was live. I emailed the cacher and the actual cache is about 60 feet away, his coordinates are off, and he hasn't fixed them yet.

 

Before a couple of you start and say the problem is the person who placed the cache, and if you don't know don't open, don't let kids near them... yadda yadda... the point is that there are so many of these out there mixed in with live boxes, unlabeled, and ill-maintained, it can be scary for family cachers. So, I don't let the kids near them and if I know in advance (and they are almost never listed as 'electrical' in the description) we just skip them. Our right to give them a pass and urge people to play safe.

[+Glenn]

I have been reading the messages here for several weeks and was surprised to see people have made caches out of electrical boxes. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened what you thought was a cache only to find it was actually a REAL electrical box. Maybe I am out of line here but in my opinion I do not think it is to smart to design a cache like that.

 

How does a person know for sure it is a cache?

 

Suppose their screw driver slips on a real electrical box and they are electocuted?

 

Does anyone else have these concerns?

 

Please educate me on how and why this is a safe cache.

 

Speaking as a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer let me say I have HUGE concerns about using such boxes. I think they should be banned outright....

 

If they are so poorly designed that an actual box poses so much threat that you have grave concerns over a marked and harmless caching version, I'd have to think that perhaps the problem is the crappy design of the real boxes.

He's only a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer. What does he know anyways?

 

If you have made peace between the danger of live electrical boxes and the public benefit of having them, then perhaps you should focus on real issues like suggesting the caching box be marked in some way so a cacher knows.

 

As for cachers taking apart something they are unsure about to find a cache. Don't. Simple enough. Works for boxes, works for sprinklers.

 

Agreed, but I don't that much faith that others won't take apart something they are unsure about. They might be sure that it is a cache because they have seen those type before until they actually have forced it open and discover no log inside.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I haven't had any cachers complain about my electrical box type hides here is one

The site

The container

The cache with magnets in center top and bottom

 

This cache has been received well in the area. Not sure what all the fuss is. Common sense goes a long way.

 

Yep, this one would instantly go to my ignore (if I could tell in advance).

 

I wonder how some of the owners would feel if their caches ended up on bookmarks? I've heard more than one person suggest just this to me...

 

I wouldn't, but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing it either...just saying!

[+K T S]

 

I wonder how some of the owners would feel if their caches ended up on bookmarks? I've heard more than one person suggest just this to me...

 

Not a bad idea, then those who want to avoid this type of cache won't waste their time, and those who want to light up their lives with shocking caches can have a sparking good time....

Edited April 21, 2008 by K T S

[+KCL777]

I've found micros hidden in light poles next to live electric wires (that's inside the metal pole, behind the access plate used by the electrician... not under a decorative skirt). I've found caches in electric boxes and conduit that look very similar to the several real electric boxes that the real cache is hidden amongst. I've found caches hidden 8 feet away from live electric boxes, but which were actually under a rock or in some other hiding place. In general, I have not enjoyed those caches. I have one eye out for safety and the other eye out for security. It is hard for me to imagine the property owner giving permission for such a hide, but that's the cache owner's issue in the first instance.

 

We have also run across a couple of those you described above. One we tried to get the other day was somewhere on the electrical panel on the back wall of a shopping center, almost right on their loading dock. We

walked away as soon as i realized it where it was hidden. That was a LEO encounter just waiting to happen. Not sure how someone would get permission to place a cache like that.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Here's where I had mine hid. I put it cack in so you all could see where it was.

 

This is my APRS site. I've had it since 1998 or 99. I changed the call letters to N7ZEF and turned the legals over to him. These are full sized photos!

<pix snipped to save space>

It's really scary, there might be a Nauga in there.

 

Jake81499

I see nothing wrong with a cache there. If I was the approver (utterly useless point), I would approve it based on the picture even if there WAS a guideline prohibiting caches around electrical equipment since the cache would not be near electrical equipment.

 

I gather from your posts that it is your understanding that the denial was because of proximity to electrical equipment, but is it possible that the real reason for denial is because of its proximity to public infrastructure (radio tower) which could possibly be considered a terrorist target?

 

I work at a LOT of radio towers and I have often considered placing caches nearby them, (several are on State Park land and permission could be obtained by the normal process). But I have always thought better of it because we simply don't want "suspicious" activity in the areas. If nothing else, the towers ARE frequent targets of copper theft.

 

A cache near a radio tower is a LEO encounter waiting to happen.

 

Since this is your land it is your business, but do you really want to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to prowl about on your land?

 

But as you say in post #66:

to me it's more about the numbers

 

And you have carefully considered all this and still want to get it approved, it shouldn't really be any big deal to move the cache off the pole to say, the side of the building or the base of the tower or a guy anchor or the perimeter gate.

 

That would be a much better way to accomplish the stated goal of increasing the number of caches in the area because it would make approval a snap.

 

Since the goal is to place a cache and get it approved, it stands to reason that doing what is needed to get it approved is preferable to pulling the unapproved cache and re-opening this can of forum worms which clearly does not apply in this case.

[+PhxChem]

Not sure how someone would get permission to place a cache like that.

 

Good one!!

[+Confucius' Cat]

Not sure how someone would get permission to place a cache like that.

 

Good one!!

[Mushtang]

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.

That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

 

Well, few folks get to see the equivalent "meatball" films showing what happens when electrical equipment arcs over or faults.

I believe you that people can get injured, or killed, by messing around with some electrical equipment. But people can also get injured, or killed, by messing around with [insert almost anything here].

 

Granted, electrical boxes are more risky than a comfy pillow, but should that keep us from using them? I'd also point out that more people are injured or killed on a daily basis in your town by car accidents than are injured or killed in a whole year everywhere by electrical boxes. It's all risk assessment. If you want to completely eliminate all danger from your life, geocaching probably isn't even in the top 10 things you need to start changing.

 

The other problem I have with such caches it that even if our own clever design causes no harm, what does that teach the finder about possible hiding places?

I don't know. I've seen several people go on a killing spree in movies this year. I've read a book about a successful bank robbery. I also have a friend that told me about a hunting trip he took to shoot a deer. Zero of those made me want to go and do them myself.

 

But what has the electrical boxes I've found as caches taught me about possible hiding places? I'd say that it taught me sometimes a good camo'd container can be sitting right out in the open.

 

It probably also teaches finders things like... if there is nothing connected to the electrical box at all (no conduits with wires) it probably isn't risky to investigate it further as a possible cache they're looking for.

 

There are a few absolute and complete idiots that will open up anything, touch anything, move anything, kick over anything, etc. in order to find a cache. After they leave an area it's pretty obvious someone has been there and the cache is likely no longer hard to find. These are the kinds of people that will take a screwdriver to a lamp post access cover and then reach inside, or will open electrical boxes that are connected to two or three others just to see if it's the cache that was hidden last week. I'm not interested in saving people from themselves by trying to make this world idiot proof.

[+Glenn]

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.

That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

 

No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license. Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.

[Mushtang]

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.

That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

 

No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license. Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.

I'd be willing to bet quite a lot of money that over 95% of all the auto accidents that happen every day are caused by licensed drivers. Many of them have taken drivers ed and have seen the meatball films.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.

That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

 

Ok...here's my thought:

 

You keep going back to the autos and such to say how we all take risks every day...guess what, you usually have to take driver's ed and go through a learning period before being "allowed" to drive. Also, you have to get a license and follow all the laws and such (wear glasses if applicable, be licensed and educated for anything other than private use etc). Cachers hardly have to learn anything about electricity before just plopping a cache in on or around electric equipment.

 

Drivers follow signs all the time, turn here, no turn here, stop etc...why couldn't these types of caches have instructions telling the cachers which is the right "turn", where to "stop" etc? Maybe not a bright orange "here it is" on the container, but at least a good description or (in cases where caches are AROUND elect equip) what it's NOT in or on!

 

Yes, driving is dangerous! For this, we have LEO's keeping our lives a bit safer, we have laws limiting our craziness and we have a checks and balance system to protect us...you may even lose your privelege to drive! Maybe potentially dangerous caches involving elect equip should be better monitored so to keep it safe?

 

Another example is mowing the lawn...sure it's safe IF done properly! On EVERY mower I've ever seen, a warning sticker is here a sticker giving safety instructions there. We don't just buy those and give them to our kids to play on or around without advising of the dangers...do we? (OMG, I hope not) We don't just ignore the warnings as silliness...do we (I mean, most intelligent people turn off the mower to stick their arm in the chute when it's clogged, we drive it on fairly safe slopes etc...right). Those dangers might be slim and only a less than intelligent person would go against these bits of advice...why should we poo-poo the potential dangers of elect equip?

 

Some like to ask "have you ever heard of a cacher being electrocuted"...well, no, not personally....BUT, I have heard of hundreds of thousands of people being electrocuted while out doing things other than working with the electricity...AND even the pros get fried while on the job working with electricity. So, if by cachers you mean humans, YES, I have heard it happens and even saw it happen before!

 

I'm not asking for a ban or anything...too late! All I'd like to see is more labeling and more safety while placing these caches. Let people know what they're going after even if it ruins your hide (if you truly want a tough hide, try a more conventional hide in the woods or such). The container shouldn't lead to potential dangers just because you can't think of a better way to disguise your hide!