Electrical Box Caches?

8.9k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

Well, few folks get to see the equivalent "meatball" films showing what happens when electrical equipment arcs over or faults.
I believe you that people can get injured, or killed, by messing around with some electrical equipment. But people can also get injured, or killed, by messing around with [insert almost anything here].

Granted, electrical boxes are more risky than a comfy pillow, but should that keep us from using them? I'd also point out that more people are injured or killed on a daily basis in your town by car accidents than are injured or killed in a whole year everywhere by electrical boxes. It's all risk assessment. If you want to completely eliminate all danger from your life, geocaching probably isn't even in the top 10 things you need to start changing.

The other problem I have with such caches it that even if our own clever design causes no harm, what does that teach the finder about possible hiding places?
I don't know. I've seen several people go on a killing spree in movies this year. I've read a book about a successful bank robbery. I also have a friend that told me about a hunting trip he took to shoot a deer. Zero of those made me want to go and do them myself.

But what has the electrical boxes I've found as caches taught me about possible hiding places? I'd say that it taught me sometimes a good camo'd container can be sitting right out in the open.

It probably also teaches finders things like... if there is nothing connected to the electrical box at all (no conduits with wires) it probably isn't risky to investigate it further as a possible cache they're looking for.

There are a few absolute and complete idiots that will open up anything, touch anything, move anything, kick over anything, etc. in order to find a cache. After they leave an area it's pretty obvious someone has been there and the cache is likely no longer hard to find. These are the kinds of people that will take a screwdriver to a lamp post access cover and then reach inside, or will open electrical boxes that are connected to two or three others just to see if it's the cache that was hidden last week. I'm not interested in saving people from themselves by trying to make this world idiot proof.

I boldened the part I'm commenting on: This comment is way off! A box doesn't have to have conduit OR wires leading to it for it to be hot! This is a misconception which could cause injury or death and SHOULD be addressed.

3.9k · April 21, 2008

Ok...here's my thought:

You keep going back to the autos and such to say how we all take risks every day...guess what, you usually have to take driver's ed and go through a learning period before being "allowed" to drive. Also, you have to get a license and follow all the laws and such (wear glasses if applicable, be licensed and educated for anything other than private use etc). Cachers hardly have to learn anything about electricity before just plopping a cache in on or around electric equipment.

Drivers follow signs all the time, turn here, no turn here, stop etc...why couldn't these types of caches have instructions telling the cachers which is the right "turn", where to "stop" etc? Maybe not a bright orange "here it is" on the container, but at least a good description or (in cases where caches are AROUND elect equip) what it's NOT in or on!

Yes, driving is dangerous! For this, we have LEO's keeping our lives a bit safer, we have laws limiting our craziness and we have a checks and balance system to protect us...you may even lose your privelege to drive! Maybe potentially dangerous caches involving elect equip should be better monitored so to keep it safe?

So it's the unlicensed drivers that are causing all the accidents?

Another example is mowing the lawn...sure it's safe IF done properly! On EVERY mower I've ever seen, a warning sticker is here a sticker giving safety instructions there. We don't just buy those and give them to our kids to play on or around without advising of the dangers...do we? (OMG, I hope not) We don't just ignore the warnings as silliness...do we (I mean, most intelligent people turn off the mower to stick their arm in the chute when it's clogged, we drive it on fairly safe slopes etc...right). Those dangers might be slim and only a less than intelligent person would go against these bits of advice...why should we poo-poo the potential dangers of elect equip?

I've seen stickers on electrical boxes that shouldn't be opened. I'm not saying, and have never said, that electrical boxes are completely safe to do with as you will. I'm saying that hiding a cache in a fake one does not guarantee that cachers will electrocute themselves on real ones like all these threads make it sound.

3.9k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

Well, few folks get to see the equivalent "meatball" films showing what happens when electrical equipment arcs over or faults.
I believe you that people can get injured, or killed, by messing around with some electrical equipment. But people can also get injured, or killed, by messing around with [insert almost anything here].

Granted, electrical boxes are more risky than a comfy pillow, but should that keep us from using them? I'd also point out that more people are injured or killed on a daily basis in your town by car accidents than are injured or killed in a whole year everywhere by electrical boxes. It's all risk assessment. If you want to completely eliminate all danger from your life, geocaching probably isn't even in the top 10 things you need to start changing.

The other problem I have with such caches it that even if our own clever design causes no harm, what does that teach the finder about possible hiding places?
I don't know. I've seen several people go on a killing spree in movies this year. I've read a book about a successful bank robbery. I also have a friend that told me about a hunting trip he took to shoot a deer. Zero of those made me want to go and do them myself.

But what has the electrical boxes I've found as caches taught me about possible hiding places? I'd say that it taught me sometimes a good camo'd container can be sitting right out in the open.

It probably also teaches finders things like... if there is nothing connected to the electrical box at all (no conduits with wires) it probably isn't risky to investigate it further as a possible cache they're looking for.

There are a few absolute and complete idiots that will open up anything, touch anything, move anything, kick over anything, etc. in order to find a cache. After they leave an area it's pretty obvious someone has been there and the cache is likely no longer hard to find. These are the kinds of people that will take a screwdriver to a lamp post access cover and then reach inside, or will open electrical boxes that are connected to two or three others just to see if it's the cache that was hidden last week. I'm not interested in saving people from themselves by trying to make this world idiot proof.

I boldened the part I'm commenting on: This comment is way off! A box doesn't have to have conduit OR wires leading to it for it to be hot! This is a misconception which could cause injury or death and SHOULD be addressed.

Whenever I've seen an electrical box cache I've always identified it because it didn't have any conduits leading to it. However, I changed the bolding above to remind you that I didn't consider it a reason to dive right into it. I'd still look at it closely and see if I could find anything else. The ones I found were attached by magnets glued on the back. When I saw those I figured it was okay to pull on the box and see if it came off. Once it was in my hands, with NO wires going in or coming out, I knew it was safe to open. Wouldn't you agree?

April 21, 2008

I gather from your posts that it is your understanding that the denial was because of proximity to electrical equipment, but is it possible that the real reason for denial is because of its proximity to public infrastructure (radio tower) which could possibly be considered a terrorist target?

Since this is your land it is your business, but do you really want to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to prowl about on your land?

And you have carefully considered all this and still want to get it approved, it shouldn't really be any big deal to move the cache off the pole to say, the side of the building or the base of the tower or a guy anchor or the perimeter gate.

I think we're grasping at straws here.

If terrorist are going to hit a tower site (or any other cache location), they are going to do it whether there is a geocache there or not. Especially since these perticular towers are viewable from the Interstate. Allso, this particular tower beacons it's precise location every ten minutes.

Secondly, I don't mind someone going out there to view my montage of E-Bay special solar panals.

Third, part of the cache discription was suppose to be (I forgot to add it at the time and would have), 'you don't need to cross the barbed wire fence.' That is why the cache was in plain sight. They didn't need to get close to the towers or building on the other side of the barbed wire fence. (The pictures above are deceptive in proximity to the towers and building. There is at least 75 feet seperating them and 1/4 mile to the next tower.)

Forth, do I want every Tom Dick and Harry prowling my land? Look at every cache we set, do the owners of that land want every Tom Dick and Harry prowling? The only difference between this cache and many many others on private land is, I didn't have to ask permission.

I can just about quote the reviewer on why he denied the cache, "I think it sets a bad precedent to place a cache inside of an electrical box, regardless of whether there is power or not. Attaching something to the outside isn't necessarily the best idea either. Check out the Groundspeak forums and you'll see plenty of debate over hiding things even near electrical boxes. Please find a more suitable location for your cache."

Nuff said once again.

Jake81499

Edited April 21, 2008 by Jake81499

8.9k · April 21, 2008

Ok...here's my thought:

Yes, driving is dangerous! For this, we have LEO's keeping our lives a bit safer, we have laws limiting our craziness and we have a checks and balance system to protect us...you may even lose your privelege to drive! Maybe potentially dangerous caches involving elect equip should be better monitored so to keep it safe?

So it's the unlicensed drivers that are causing all the accidents?

Is that what I said? Was that even inferred? NO. I believe you understood my point!

My point is that even the drivers are TRAINED as SHOULD be most everyone who plays around with elect boxes (live of course). I know, the next argument will be "but the container isn't in a LIVE box"...so what? To the cacher TRAINED to believe those are safe, opening a real box is the potential problem especially if the fake box is among rel ones!

My second pint was that we label unsafe equipment, this shouldn't be any different IMHO.

So you understand... AGAIN, I didn't call for anything save a warning on the description or a "sign" which cachers would understand on the container's "camo". If that's too much for some, I guess they can be added by others just as easily! Does this mean I'm going to just go out and label every cache I can identify on the site? No, I'd hope cachers would be responsible enough to handle that on their own. BUT, I won't rule out action if I feel it's necessary!

Mushtang...the ones I've seen (and some have been identified in threads similar to this) that bother me have been firmly screwed to the pole or building. Some even have fake conduit attached which leads into the ground. They look very real!

8.9k · April 21, 2008

I gather from your posts that it is your understanding that the denial was because of proximity to electrical equipment, but is it possible that the real reason for denial is because of its proximity to public infrastructure (radio tower) which could possibly be considered a terrorist target?

Since this is your land it is your business, but do you really want to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to prowl about on your land?

And you have carefully considered all this and still want to get it approved, it shouldn't really be any big deal to move the cache off the pole to say, the side of the building or the base of the tower or a guy anchor or the perimeter gate.

I think we're grasping at straws here. If terrorist are going to hit a tower site (or any other), they are going to do it whether there is a geocache there or not. Especially since these perticular towers are viewable from the Interstate. Secondly, I don't mind someone going out there to view my montage of E-Bay special solar panals. Third, part of the cache discription was suppose to be, 'you don't need to cross the barbed wire fence.' Forth, do I want every Tom Dick and Harry prowling my land? Look at every cache we set, do the owners of that land want every Tom Dick and Harry prowling? The only difference between this cache and many many others on private land is, I didn't have to ask permission.

I can just about quote the reviewer on why he denied the cache, "I think it sets a bad precedent to place a cache inside of an electrical box, regardless of whether there is power or not. Attaching something to the outside isn't necessarily the best idea either. Check out the Groundspeak forums and you'll see plenty of debate over hiding things even near electrical boxes. Please find a more suitable location for your cache."

Nuff said once again.

Jake81499

I agree with the reviewer and wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether. That would certainly stop the worries! Until then, I'll champion for the labeling!

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!

20.7k · April 21, 2008

... Since this is your land it is your business, but do you really want to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to prowl about on your land? ...

If everyone followed that advice, there would be no geocaches.

20.7k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?
No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license.

Do you really want to use that analogy?

Unless something has drastically changed, getting a drivers license requires just a few things: You must be old enough, you must be able to see well enough, you must be able to score the minimum on a simple multiple choice test, and you must pass a very short 'road test'.

Having a driver's license doesn't mean that you've mastered driving any more than having a fiching license means that you are a pro fisherman.

Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.

I'm pretty sure that there's no law against a non-licensed person opening his/her own breaker box and 'messing around' inside. Heck, I did it this weekend. Edited April 21, 2008 by sbell111

3.9k · April 21, 2008

Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.
I'm pretty sure that there's no law against a non-licensed person opening his/her own breaker box and 'messing around' inside. Heck, I did it this weekend.

Dude, are you okay? When do the doctors think you'll be able to leave the hospital?

20.7k · April 21, 2008

... I can just about quote the reviewer on why he denied the cache, "I think it sets a bad precedent to place a cache inside of an electrical box, regardless of whether there is power or not. Attaching something to the outside isn't necessarily the best idea either. Check out the Groundspeak forums and you'll see plenty of debate over hiding things even near electrical boxes. Please find a more suitable location for your cache."

If that was the reason that the reviewer did not list the cache, then I believe that he was dead wrong.

Reviewers should list or not list a cache based on the guidelines. There is nothing in the guidelines that speaks to this 'bad precedent', therefore, the cache should have been listed. Reviewers should not be the safety or 'PC' police.

20.7k · April 21, 2008

Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.
I'm pretty sure that there's no law against a non-licensed person opening his/her own breaker box and 'messing around' inside. Heck, I did it this weekend.

Dude, are you okay? When do the doctors think you'll be able to leave the hospital?

I had to go to the library and do a lot of research on the safe way to reset that breaker, but I finally figured it out.

April 21, 2008

I haven't had any cachers complain about my electrical box type hides here is one

The site

The container

The cache with magnets in center top and bottom

This cache has been received well in the area. Not sure what all the fuss is. Common sense goes a long way.

Yep, this one would instantly go to my ignore (if I could tell in advance).

I wonder how some of the owners would feel if their caches ended up on bookmarks? I've heard more than one person suggest just this to me...

I wouldn't, but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing it either...just saying!

Sweetie if you wanna put mine on a bookmark you just go right ahead. I could care less if you ignore my caches. This game is to be enjoyed by ALL KINDS of people. Use COMMON SENSE and you won't get hurt. Personally I like caches like this. I'm certainly not gonna go sticking screw drivers into anything anyway. If a tool is required to open a cache of mine its stated on the page. If you don't read that then its pretty well know that all you need is your hand to open the container. Also the difficulty rating goes up if special equipment is required. As far as families caching. I cache with my 10yr and even she knows not to approach this kinda cache. If she thinks its something unsafe she asks me. Even if we've found and hidden that kind of hide. Finding ammo cans and LnLs can get pretty boring. A different kinda container is refeshing.

This kind of thread is really kinda silly. We have caches that require repelling down a mtn, crawling around in snake and spider infested drain pipes.

Don't bump someone's style of hide that is WITHIN guidelines because you are too scared to do it. Problem with the guidelines is that people misconstrue them as hard core rules.

Just because someone MIGHT try to open a electrical box that will be locked anyway if its dangerous is not a reason to do away with them all. So let us all respect the fact that some have the right to ignore (or bookmark) certain caches and others have the right to hide them.

3.9k · April 21, 2008

...wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether.

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!

I don't think you understand what the word "ban" means.

April 21, 2008

I have seen magnetic cache hiders that are camoed to look like a flip up cover that when open would expose an electrical outlet, but there is a blinkie hanging inside. It is meant to go near something outdoors like an electrical box. I think that some of you guys have had good ideas puting the GC code on it to distinguish it from other boxes. I have seen many other creative cache ideas that could be even more dangerous (fake bee nests, bolt hiders put in electrical towers, e.t.c) so all in all, I do think that it is a split responsibility between finder and hider to keep it safe. There are certain steps (like marking it with the GC code) that can help a finder distinguish it from a live box, and but finders also have to use common sense and not try to pry open every box that is there.

2.7k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?
No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license.
Do you really want to use that analogy?

No, I'd rather talk about geocaching and disguising caches as functioning breaker boxes.

The reason to use a non-functioning breaker box is to make the cache container blend in with the surrounding. The only way to do this is to make it look like a functioning breaker box to most people. If you do a good enough job then the next time a cacher sees a breaker box they will pause and wonder if that is the cache. The only way to find out is to open it. Once opened and discovered that the breaker box doesn't contain a cache the obvious thing to do is to close the box and continue searching elsewhere. Unfortunately people are not predictable and don't always do the obvious thing. At this point if they haven't have some kind of training they may very well hurt themselves.

Unless something has drastically changed, getting a drivers license requires just a few things: You must be old enough, you must be able to see well enough, you must be able to score the minimum on a simple multiple choice test, and you must pass a very short 'road test'.

Having a driver's license doesn't mean that you've mastered driving any more than having a fiching license means that you are a pro fisherman.

I agree that having a drivers license doesn't mean that someone is an expert at driving but it does mean that they at least know the basics. They know that a red light means stop and a green light means go. I don't know anyone that naturally knew that the black wire is hot, the white wire or a black wire with a white stripe or a black wire with a yellow stripe is neutral, and the green or copper wire is ground. The same thing goes for a licensed electrician. They are not electrical experts but they at least have a basic knowledge.

Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.
I'm pretty sure that there's no law against a non-licensed person opening his/her own breaker box and 'messing around' inside. Heck, I did it this weekend.

Most jurisdictions require that you obtain a permit and

inspections of any wiring that is done. Amongst other more

mundane bureaucratic reasons (like insurance companies not

liking to have to pay claims), a permit and inspections

provides some assurance that you, your family, your neighbors

or subsequent owners of your home don't get killed or lose

their homes one night due to a sloppy wiring job.

- http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

Maybe Geocaching.com could benefit from some kind of permit and inspection process for caches disguised as objects other than Tupperware and ammo cans?

Edited April 21, 2008 by Glenn

24.7k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?

No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license. Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.

You have two good tracks going.

I like this comparison.

Since we don't need a licence to be near electrical equipment their is a higher burden on the companies who make it to make it safe for public exposure. Where the danger is higher than 'normal' they lock it up. You can't get into a power tranformer vault, or a sub station easily.

24.7k · April 21, 2008

...He's only a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer. What does he know anyways?...

Less than a good electrician when it comes to operational safety, unless he was one before he became an engineer. More than an electrician when it comes to specifying equipment. More than you or I, but not so much more that we have to hire him to check our design if we wire our own house. Enough more to where we would gladly hire him for designing our electrical for our business especially with specialized needs and controls. He would know enough to inspect (or know where to look to learn that) but not as much as the electrician when it comes to making the construction look easy. He would know more about the why of things, the contractor more the how of things. He would distance himeself from worksite safety and leave that in the hands of the contractor.

20.7k · April 21, 2008

Remember those films they showed you in driver's ed? We used to call them "meatball" films because they invariably showed us the gruesome results that could happen when we abused our driving privileges.
That's true. Driving automobiles is a very risky thing to do, yet we all do it every day anyway. Why is this? Shouldn't we stop driving our cars because someone got injured in a movie we saw in drivers ed?
No, but you do have to be licensed to drive a car. This usually involves some classroom instruction to make you aware of the dangers of driving, some practical driving to give you some experiance, and test make sure you understand what was taught. Believe it or not but some people can not get a drivers license.
Do you really want to use that analogy?
No, I'd rather talk about geocaching and disguising caches as functioning breaker boxes.
The reason to use a non-functioning breaker box is to make the cache container blend in with the surrounding. The only way to do this is to make it look like a functioning breaker box to most people. If you do a good enough job then the next time a cacher sees a breaker box they will pause and wonder if that is the cache. The only way to find out is to open it.

How did they get past the lock?

Once opened and discovered that the breaker box doesn't contain a cache the obvious thing to do is to close the box and continue searching elsewhere. Unfortunately people are not predictable and don't always do the obvious thing. At this point if they haven't have some kind of training they may very well hurt themselves.

Why? If they don't close it, they can't throw the switch that energizes it and it would remain reasonably safe. Also, the business owner would wander around wondering why his power is off and really curious to find out how the individual got into the locked box.

8.9k · April 21, 2008

I haven't had any cachers complain about my electrical box type hides here is one

The site

The container

The cache with magnets in center top and bottom

This cache has been received well in the area. Not sure what all the fuss is. Common sense goes a long way.

Yep, this one would instantly go to my ignore (if I could tell in advance).

I wonder how some of the owners would feel if their caches ended up on bookmarks? I've heard more than one person suggest just this to me...

I wouldn't, but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing it either...just saying!

Sweetie if you wanna put mine on a bookmark you just go right ahead. I could care less if you ignore my caches. This game is to be enjoyed by ALL KINDS of people. Use COMMON SENSE and you won't get hurt. Personally I like caches like this. I'm certainly not gonna go sticking screw drivers into anything anyway. If a tool is required to open a cache of mine its stated on the page. If you don't read that then its pretty well know that all you need is your hand to open the container. Also the difficulty rating goes up if special equipment is required. As far as families caching. I cache with my 10yr and even she knows not to approach this kinda cache. If she thinks its something unsafe she asks me. Even if we've found and hidden that kind of hide. Finding ammo cans and LnLs can get pretty boring. A different kinda container is refeshing.

This kind of thread is really kinda silly. We have caches that require repelling down a mtn, crawling around in snake and spider infested drain pipes.

Don't bump someone's style of hide that is WITHIN guidelines because you are too scared to do it. Problem with the guidelines is that people misconstrue them as hard core rules.

Just because someone MIGHT try to open a electrical box that will be locked anyway if its dangerous is not a reason to do away with them all. So let us all respect the fact that some have the right to ignore (or bookmark) certain caches and others have the right to hide them.

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.

You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into? This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too! BTW...right near the same cache was also other electrical equipment which were live and hooked up to the pump station which was INSIDE of a fence. The electric equipment wasn't in a fence, but did say "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE".

You might have missed the part where I said I MIGHT bookmark caches which AREN'T labeled...and AFTER asking the owner if they'd please make their cache safer. You might have also missed where I said I'm not about to go out and search out every one of these and put them on a bookmark also...

8.9k · April 21, 2008

...wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether.

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!

I don't think you understand what the word "ban" means.

Oh, I think I do. I also think you misread my comments? I said I WISHED they would nix them, I never said I was pushing for banning them. Therefore, I'm hardly calling for a ban! But I certainly wouldn't oppose one either!

Oh, I also said I would continue to champion for the labeling....I'm calling for labeling!

8.9k · April 21, 2008

I have seen magnetic cache hiders that are camoed to look like a flip up cover that when open would expose an electrical outlet, but there is a blinkie hanging inside. It is meant to go near something outdoors like an electrical box. I think that some of you guys have had good ideas puting the GC code on it to distinguish it from other boxes. I have seen many other creative cache ideas that could be even more dangerous (fake bee nests, bolt hiders put in electrical towers, e.t.c) so all in all, I do think that it is a split responsibility between finder and hider to keep it safe. There are certain steps (like marking it with the GC code) that can help a finder distinguish it from a live box, and but finders also have to use common sense and not try to pry open every box that is there.

You're talking about other dangerous type hides which I frown upon. I also frown upon anyone using a fake bird's nest with fake eggs. Great, now people go about ruining bird's nests too!

I disagree with the split responsibility thought, if it weren't for someone hiding one of these types of caches in the first place, no one would be looking in fake bees nests or electric boxes...or ripping up expensive sprinklers etc!

I ride my motorcycle all the time...almost got killed on it the other day when my tire blew out in the middle of Detroit! I KNOW the risks I'm taking getting on my motorcycle. I DON'T know the potential hazard (well, I DO actually, but not everyone does, I'm using me only as an example) a cache poses simply by reading the description as most people want you to be fooled and wouldn't think to label them as dangerous, it would give the hide away. In other words, you WANT the cachers wondering if the box is real or not. What happens at another cache near a REAL electric box? Do you truly think the cacher will give up without at least messing with the electric box before DNF'ing a cache?? Maybe a SMALL percentage....

A label either in the description saying this is a fake electric box hide or a sticker or something on the outside of the camo would certainly help!

20.7k · April 21, 2008

... I ride my motorcycle all the time...almost got killed on it the other day when my tire blew out in the middle of Detroit! I KNOW the risks I'm taking getting on my motorcycle. I DON'T know the potential hazard (well, I DO actually, but not everyone does, I'm using me only as an example) a cache poses simply by reading the description as most people want you to be fooled and wouldn't think to label them as dangerous, it would give the hide away.

You are actually tqking the position that, while you are smart enough to understand that an electrical box might be dangerous, but that the average person does not? I believe that you are wrong.

In other words, you WANT the cachers wondering if the box is real or not. What happens at another cache near a REAL electric box?

Yes. If a cacher has to wonder whether an electrical box is real, or not, he/she will always believe that the box might be real.

Do you truly think the cacher will give up without at least messing with the electric box before DNF'ing a cache?? Maybe a SMALL percentage....

Again, I believe that you don't truly understand people. I believe that most people won't bother the box unless they believe that it is reasonably safe to do so.

A label either in the description saying this is a fake electric box hide or a sticker or something on the outside of the camo would certainly help!

I don't believe that it would. People would always assume that there were some unlabeled caches out there.

20.7k · April 21, 2008

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.

First of all, shenanigans. I seriously doubt that you have paid much attention, in general, to whether random electrical boxes were locked.

You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into?

I don't see how a fake electrical box deserves a high terrain or difficulty rating. Certainly, the clayjar system would not point you in that direction.

This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too!

Again, shenanigans. You are trying to convince us that you were just standing around while 1) a couple of groups of people searched for and found the cache, 2) both of these groups checked inside a live electrical box, 3) you believe that checking inside a live electrical box is very dangerous, 4) these people were your friends, and 5) you did nothing while they undertook these dangerous actions.

I simply find this all to be way too unbelievable.

Edited April 21, 2008 by sbell111

8.9k · April 22, 2008

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.
First of all, shenanigans. I seriously doubt that you have paid much attention, in general, to whether random electrical boxes were locked.
You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into?
I don't see how a fake electrical box deserves a high terrain or difficulty rating. Certainly, the clayjar system would not point you in that direction.
This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too!

Again, shenanigans. You are trying to convince us that you were just standing around while 1) a couple of groups of people searched for and found the cache, 2) both of these groups checked inside a live electrical box, 3) you believe that checking inside a live electrical box is very dangerous, 4) these people were your friends, and 5) you did nothing while they undertook these dangerous actions.

I simply find this all to be way too unbelievable.

Well sbell, I didn't write my account for you to believe or not, so I don't care! Apparently you've NEVER been to an event and then went caching in the area afterwards?? The event had just ended, there must have been about 150 or so cachers in the area and all were circling from cache site to cache site.

SOMETIMES I like to cache without bumping into other cachers, so we waited at the gates of a small park for one group to finish the find, then we went in and started searching. Someone came in, so we quickly packed up and moved a good distance away and watched (yes, we were cheating since we already had loooked and weren't above a bit of "help"). The first group (maybe 4 cachers if I remember correctly) got out and searched...and searched. They messed with everything in the area and then found the cache....but we couldn't tell where because they were partially blocking the view!

As they were getting ready to leave, another group came, so we watched them too and so did the first, who egged them on! THEN we went and found the cache after everyne else left.

Now, if you don't believe that, I've got a few suggestions for you musta been one of those "I can't fathom it therefore it MUST be a lie" moments? Really sbell, in case you haven't figured it out, I'd sooner tell you to jump in a lake than try to lie to you to convince you of anything.

Is your problem that you often make up tales, so you think others do this as well?? I mean, you've called me a liar more than once in these forums now...

24.7k · April 22, 2008

....I disagree with the split responsibility thought, if it weren't for someone hiding one of these types of caches in the first place, no one would be looking in fake bees nests or electric boxes...or ripping up expensive sprinklers etc!

I ride my motorcycle all the time...almost got killed on it the other day when my tire blew out in the middle of Detroit! I KNOW the risks...

I know dang well you know the rick of sticking your hand in a live bees nest. Why the heck would you ever blame a cache owner if someone is stupid enough to tick their hand in a live nest because they once saw a cache in a dead one?

If you really want to have a world where contributory negligence is the rule rather than an carefully considered exceptions that's a world where El Diablo could not make walking sticks for fear that he would be contributing to people being bit by snakes. A world where people who make yellow shirts don't because people who are allergic to bee stings wear them and attract bees. A world with warnings on lunch meat "never ever, ever take this on a picnic in the fall, Wasps will swarm you".

8.9k · April 22, 2008

Oh and sbell, I HAVE seen many unlocked electric boxes...just because you can't fathom it doesn't make me a liar...please remember that!

In fact, I don't recall seeing locks on many...some did have a little "tamper wire" but that's hardly a lock and certainly NOT a deterrent for someone wanting in those boxes! Locks, no, not too many around here.

maybe it's different in your area??

20.7k · April 22, 2008

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.
First of all, shenanigans. I seriously doubt that you have paid much attention, in general, to whether random electrical boxes were locked.
You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into?
I don't see how a fake electrical box deserves a high terrain or difficulty rating. Certainly, the clayjar system would not point you in that direction.
This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too!

Again, shenanigans. You are trying to convince us that you were just standing around while 1) a couple of groups of people searched for and found the cache, 2) both of these groups checked inside a live electrical box, 3) you believe that checking inside a live electrical box is very dangerous, 4) these people were your friends, and 5) you did nothing while they undertook these dangerous actions.

I simply find this all to be way too unbelievable.

Well sbell, I didn't write my account for you to believe or not, so I don't care! Apparently you've NEVER been to an event and then went caching in the area afterwards?? The event had just ended, there must have been about 150 or so cachers in the area and all were circling from cache site to cache site.

SOMETIMES I like to cache without bumping into other cachers, so we waited at the gates of a small park for one group to finish the find, then we went in and started searching. Someone came in, so we quickly packed up and moved a good distance away and watched (yes, we were cheating since we already had loooked and weren't above a bit of "help"). The first group (maybe 4 cachers if I remember correctly) got out and searched...and searched. They messed with everything in the area and then found the cache....but we couldn't tell where because they were partially blocking the view!

As they were getting ready to leave, another group came, so we watched them too and so did the first, who egged them on! THEN we went and found the cache after everyne else left.

Now, if you don't believe that, I've got a few suggestions for you musta been one of those "I can't fathom it therefore it MUST be a lie" moments? Really sbell, in case you haven't figured it out, I'd sooner tell you to jump in a lake than try to lie to you to convince you of anything.

Is your problem that you often make up tales, so you think others do this as well?? I mean, you've called me a liar more than once in these forums now...

I didn't call you a liar. However, I find your statement to be so very unlikely that I don't believe it (like your shotgun posts). I allow for the chance that you are telling the truth and would stand by while your friends risked their lives. Edited April 22, 2008 by sbell111

8.9k · April 22, 2008

....I disagree with the split responsibility thought, if it weren't for someone hiding one of these types of caches in the first place, no one would be looking in fake bees nests or electric boxes...or ripping up expensive sprinklers etc!

I ride my motorcycle all the time...almost got killed on it the other day when my tire blew out in the middle of Detroit! I KNOW the risks...

I know dang well you know the rick of sticking your hand in a live bees nest. Why the heck would you ever blame a cache owner if someone is stupid enough to tick their hand in a live nest because they once saw a cache in a dead one?

If you really want to have a world where contributory negligence is the rule rather than an carefully considered exceptions that's a world where El Diablo could not make walking sticks for fear that he would be contributing to people being bit by snakes. A world where people who make yellow shirts don't because people who are allergic to bee stings wear them and attract bees. A world with warnings on lunch meat "never ever, ever take this on a picnic in the fall, Wasps will swarm you".

Wow, maybe you missed my point there?? It's not a question of ME knowing anything. I'll readily admit I'm not the brightest bulb out there, but I'm several watts ahead of some. And if not for someone putting those types of hides out, people wouldn't be tempted by what might appear to be a vacant nest, only to find out differently. Tell me you've not seen or heard of someone molesting a real bird's nest because they thought a cache was there.

A bit overly dramatic aren't we? But truly, there are warnings on just about everything. MAINLY because there IS someone who'll stick their hands into live nests simply to look for a cache. Sorry to burst your bubble!

20.7k · April 22, 2008

Oh and sbell, I HAVE seen many unlocked electric boxes...just because you can't fathom it doesn't make me a liar...please remember that!

That was my exact point. Just because your post is ferociously unlikely, doesn't necessarily make it a lie. It just makes me doubt it.

In fact, I don't recall seeing locks on many...some did have a little "tamper wire" but that's hardly a lock and certainly NOT a deterrent for someone wanting in those boxes!

Actually, I think that those little 'tamper wires' would certainly be a deterrent.

Locks, no, not too many around here.

maybe it's different in your area??

I'm certainly no expert on electrical code. I assume that you aren't, either. Edited April 22, 2008 by sbell111

8.9k · April 22, 2008

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.
First of all, shenanigans. I seriously doubt that you have paid much attention, in general, to whether random electrical boxes were locked.
You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into?
I don't see how a fake electrical box deserves a high terrain or difficulty rating. Certainly, the clayjar system would not point you in that direction.
This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too!

Again, shenanigans. You are trying to convince us that you were just standing around while 1) a couple of groups of people searched for and found the cache, 2) both of these groups checked inside a live electrical box, 3) you believe that checking inside a live electrical box is very dangerous, 4) these people were your friends, and 5) you did nothing while they undertook these dangerous actions.

I simply find this all to be way too unbelievable.

Well sbell, I didn't write my account for you to believe or not, so I don't care! Apparently you've NEVER been to an event and then went caching in the area afterwards?? The event had just ended, there must have been about 150 or so cachers in the area and all were circling from cache site to cache site.

SOMETIMES I like to cache without bumping into other cachers, so we waited at the gates of a small park for one group to finish the find, then we went in and started searching. Someone came in, so we quickly packed up and moved a good distance away and watched (yes, we were cheating since we already had loooked and weren't above a bit of "help"). The first group (maybe 4 cachers if I remember correctly) got out and searched...and searched. They messed with everything in the area and then found the cache....but we couldn't tell where because they were partially blocking the view!

As they were getting ready to leave, another group came, so we watched them too and so did the first, who egged them on! THEN we went and found the cache after everyne else left.

Now, if you don't believe that, I've got a few suggestions for you musta been one of those "I can't fathom it therefore it MUST be a lie" moments? Really sbell, in case you haven't figured it out, I'd sooner tell you to jump in a lake than try to lie to you to convince you of anything.

Is your problem that you often make up tales, so you think others do this as well?? I mean, you've called me a liar more than once in these forums now...

I didn't call you a liar. However, I find your statement to be so very unlikely that I don't believe it (like your shotgun posts). I allow for the chance that you are telling the truth and would stand by while your friends risked their lives.

Ahhh sbell. Now you want to make it out that we just uncaringly watched them risk their lives. Hey, in case you missed the part about being a GOOD DISTANCE away...what should we have done? Should we have gone down there and told them (which would have been too late since we had no idea BOTH groups would look there...but our fault for not being able to tell the future huh)?

Anything else? Oh, btw...did I say they were my friends because I didn't know any of them. THEY were friends, I could tell by the way they met each other.

Maybe reading my posts would help?

Nope, not an expert at anything, are you now making out that I'm not able to tell what a lock looks like? OK!?! And if you think a little wire with an aluminum tag would stop someone wanting into one of those boxes, you are sadly mistaken!

Edited April 22, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

20.7k · April 22, 2008

I don't think I've seen EVERY live electric box locked, in fact, I think many I've seen aren't. And, yes...right in the open. I never said anything about needing a tool for any cache, you said that.
First of all, shenanigans. I seriously doubt that you have paid much attention, in general, to whether random electrical boxes were locked.
You think this is silly, you mention those 5/5 caches. RIGHT...and aren't there all kinds of warnings on any true 5/5 cache? Those warnings alerting you (as does the rating) to the type of cache you're getting yourself into?
I don't see how a fake electrical box deserves a high terrain or difficulty rating. Certainly, the clayjar system would not point you in that direction.
This is exactly what I mean when I say I'd like to see people label these types of hides! Let me ask you this, when someone goes out after that hide of yours, do they know they're going after a fake electric box cache? Do you suppose they know for any others? And even if the cache isn't on or in an electric box, but is difficult and near one, do you think the cacher will know it isn't? NO! You find one of these and you're suspecting any in the area. You say use common sense...some cacher simply don't have this or get caught up in the heat of the search, I've seen it happen.

I recently watched another group of cachers open an electric box (big Diamond D box) before finding the cache hidden only 10' away. While waiting for that group to leave (this was after an event), another group pulled up and started searching while the first group watched (as did we, from a distance). Yep, opened the same box before finding the cache! These were all reasonably intelligent people caught up in the search and even being egged on by the one group. These were all friends too!

Again, shenanigans. You are trying to convince us that you were just standing around while 1) a couple of groups of people searched for and found the cache, 2) both of these groups checked inside a live electrical box, 3) you believe that checking inside a live electrical box is very dangerous, 4) these people were your friends, and 5) you did nothing while they undertook these dangerous actions.

I simply find this all to be way too unbelievable.

Well sbell, I didn't write my account for you to believe or not, so I don't care! Apparently you've NEVER been to an event and then went caching in the area afterwards?? The event had just ended, there must have been about 150 or so cachers in the area and all were circling from cache site to cache site.

SOMETIMES I like to cache without bumping into other cachers, so we waited at the gates of a small park for one group to finish the find, then we went in and started searching. Someone came in, so we quickly packed up and moved a good distance away and watched (yes, we were cheating since we already had loooked and weren't above a bit of "help"). The first group (maybe 4 cachers if I remember correctly) got out and searched...and searched. They messed with everything in the area and then found the cache....but we couldn't tell where because they were partially blocking the view!

As they were getting ready to leave, another group came, so we watched them too and so did the first, who egged them on! THEN we went and found the cache after everyne else left.

Now, if you don't believe that, I've got a few suggestions for you musta been one of those "I can't fathom it therefore it MUST be a lie" moments? Really sbell, in case you haven't figured it out, I'd sooner tell you to jump in a lake than try to lie to you to convince you of anything.

Is your problem that you often make up tales, so you think others do this as well?? I mean, you've called me a liar more than once in these forums now...

I didn't call you a liar. However, I find your statement to be so very unlikely that I don't believe it (like your shotgun posts). I allow for the chance that you are telling the truth and would stand by while your friends risked their lives.
Ahhh sbell. Now you want to make it out that we just uncaringly watched them risk their lives. Hey, in case you missed the part about being a GOOD DISTANCE away...what should we have done? Should we have gone down there and told them (which would have ben too late since we had no idea BOTH groups would look there...but our fault for not being able to tell the future huh)?

Anything else? Oh, btw...did I day they were my friends because I didn't know any of them. THEY were friends, I could tell by the way they met each other.

Maybe reading my posts would help?

I read your posts. I just didn't believe them.

Nope, not an expert at anything, are you now making out that I'm not able to tell what a lock looks like? OK!?! And if you think a little wire with an aluminum tag would stop someone wanting into one of those boxes, you are sadly mistaken!

I disagree. I think that a geocacher who examined an electrical box that had a tamper-seal on it would certainly decide that it was not a fake electrical box and would not open it.

24.7k · April 22, 2008

...Wow, maybe you missed my point there?? It's not a question of ME knowing anything. I'll readily admit I'm not the brightest bulb out there, but I'm several watts ahead of some. And if not for someone putting those types of hides out, people wouldn't be tempted by what might appear to be a vacant nest, only to find out differently. Tell me you've not seen or heard of someone molesting a real bird's nest because they thought a cache was there.

A bit overly dramatic aren't we? But truly, there are warnings on just about everything. MAINLY because there IS someone who'll stick their hands into live nests simply to look for a cache. Sorry to burst your bubble!

I didn't miss your point, but yes I was overly dramatic. Except I've stuck my hand in a wast nest while looking for a cache in a park (wasn't looking for a fake one either), and I've been swarmed by wasps on fall picnic, and I've actually found more rattlesnakes than problematic electrical boxes.

Maybe it would help to reverse the question.

Given that you think owners owe a duty of care (which lets them avoid contributory negligence) so as to help finders avoid real wasp nests, real electrical boxes and a myriad of other things that others would think up. What all would the "Comprehensive cache owners guide to avoiding teaching finders bad things and for which you as an owner don't want to be responsible for", look like?

Lets just tackle the fake electrical box part of the guide. What's it look like? How would you write that chapter?

I'll write the weasel word intro:

"This book is intended as a guide only, before placing a cache please consult an attorney specializing in caching law". You may also want to consult an insurance adviser to evaluation your insurance needs. If you wish to form a corporation to shield your caching endeavors from your private funds a competent corporate attorney. This statement itself is in no way comprehensive as to the types of professional advice you may need to seek to enjoy your caching hobby. For example a remote cache may require paying a retainer to a guide specializing in that are so they are available to guide your seekers to your cache without harm. Your own experience and circumstances vary from that of the author and so comprehensive advice on the kinds of advice you will need just can not be given. Scratch all that. This guide is for entertainment purposes only."

8.9k · April 22, 2008

I read your posts. I just didn't believe them.

Nope, not an expert at anything, are you now making out that I'm not able to tell what a lock looks like? OK!?! And if you think a little wire with an aluminum tag would stop someone wanting into one of those boxes, you are sadly mistaken!
I disagree. I think that a geocacher who examined an electrical box that had a tamper-seal on it would certainly decide that it was not a fake electrical box and would not open it.

I think differently, can you show proof to back your statement up? No? Then I'll just have to agree that we disagree.

I've heard of cachers taking apart real sprinklers thinking it was the cache, I wouldn't doubt for a second that someone thinking the tag was fake (just like the box is how they might see it) and take it off! I can imagine it happening!

wouldn't open a sealed box...no, just like they wouldn't take a drill to public property, wouldn't put screws into public property (to hang one of those fake boxes of all things...and yes, I've seen this too, but I'm likely lying in your eyes...right?), wouldn't hang off the edge of a bridge in search of a cache, wouldn't....I could go on!

8.9k · April 22, 2008

...Wow, maybe you missed my point there?? It's not a question of ME knowing anything. I'll readily admit I'm not the brightest bulb out there, but I'm several watts ahead of some. And if not for someone putting those types of hides out, people wouldn't be tempted by what might appear to be a vacant nest, only to find out differently. Tell me you've not seen or heard of someone molesting a real bird's nest because they thought a cache was there.

A bit overly dramatic aren't we? But truly, there are warnings on just about everything. MAINLY because there IS someone who'll stick their hands into live nests simply to look for a cache. Sorry to burst your bubble!

I didn't miss your point, but yes I was overly dramatic. Except I've stuck my hand in a wast nest while looking for a cache in a park (wasn't looking for a fake one either), and I've been swarmed by wasps on fall picnic, and I've actually found more rattlesnakes than problematic electrical boxes.

Maybe it would help to reverse the question.

Given that you think owners owe a duty of care (which lets them avoid contributory negligence) so as to help finders avoid real wasp nests, real electrical boxes and a myriad of other things that others would think up. What all would the "Comprehensive cache owners guide to avoiding teaching finders bad things and for which you as an owner don't want to be responsible for", look like?

Lets just tackle the fake electrical box part of the guide. What's it look like? How would you write that chapter?

I'll write the weasel word intro:

"This book is intended as a guide only, before placing a cache please consult an attorney specializing in caching law". You may also want to consult an insurance adviser to evaluation your insurance needs. If you wish to form a corporation to shield your caching endeavors from your private funds a competent corporate attorney. This statement itself is in no way comprehensive as to the types of professional advice you may need to seek to enjoy your caching hobby. For example a remote cache may require paying a retainer to a guide specializing in that are so they are available to guide your seekers to your cache without harm. Your own experience and circumstances vary from that of the author and so comprehensive advice on the kinds of advice you will need just can not be given. Scratch all that. This guide is for entertainment purposes only."

Owe? Maybe I feel more like every cacher should care enough about one another to try to protect them from harm if possible?? Would a simple warning or label be too much to ask?

You're still being overly dramatic here IMHO...

5.7k · April 22, 2008

.....

Edited April 22, 2008 by Team Cotati

5.7k · April 22, 2008

............feed the gerbils.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Team Cotati

24.7k · April 22, 2008

...Owe? Maybe I feel more like every cacher should care enough about one another to try to protect them from harm if possible?? Would a simple warning or label be too much to ask?

You're still being overly dramatic here IMHO...

We owners should factor in our finders. Once it changes from should to shall (because it's not to much to ask) everything changes to an obligation. Once it's an obligation then owners become liable for upholding that standard. Once they are obligated for a minimum standard they become liable for the stupidly of certain finders who chose your cache as their means of trying to remove themselves from the gene pool.

This logic is exactly why a lot of states have laws that remove liability for land owners who do not charge for the recreational use of their lands. If I ever open a caching theme park, sure I'll try and cover every angle and I'll still get sued. But so long as cache owners are about as smart as the finders and make no money from their caches... I'm flat out not going to go down this path. Should is enough.

8.9k · April 22, 2008

...Owe? Maybe I feel more like every cacher should care enough about one another to try to protect them from harm if possible?? Would a simple warning or label be too much to ask?

You're still being overly dramatic here IMHO...

We owners should factor in our finders. Once it changes from should to shall (because it's not to much to ask) everything changes to an obligation. Once it's an obligation then owners become liable for upholding that standard. Once they are obligated for a minimum standard they become liable for the stupidly of certain finders who chose your cache as their means of trying to remove themselves from the gene pool.

This logic is exactly why a lot of states have laws that remove liability for land owners who do not charge for the recreational use of their lands. If I ever open a caching theme park, sure I'll try and cover every angle and I'll still get sued. But so long as cache owners are about as smart as the finders and make no money from their caches... I'm flat out not going to go down this path. Should is enough.

RK...have you seen ANYWHERE that I want a guideline written up to make it so ALL cachers have to label their hides?? Anywhere?

24.7k · April 22, 2008

...
.....have you seen ANYWHERE that I want a guideline written up to make it so ALL cachers have to label their hides?? Anywhere?

So we agree at should.

3.9k · April 22, 2008

...wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether.

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!

I don't think you understand what the word "ban" means.

Oh, I think I do. I also think you misread my comments? I said I WISHED they would nix them, I never said I was pushing for banning them. Therefore, I'm hardly calling for a ban! But I certainly wouldn't oppose one either!

Oh, I also said I would continue to champion for the labeling....I'm calling for labeling!

Okay I don't see a difference between 1) wishing the site would nix these kinds of hides, and 2) wanting the site to ban these kinds of hides.

But if you say there's a difference I'll let it go.

2.7k · April 22, 2008

... Since this is your land it is your business, but do you really want to invite every Tom, Dick and Harry to prowl about on your land? ...
If everyone followed that advice, there would be no geocaches.

No, many if not most caches are on land where "every Tom, Dick and Harry" are ALREADY invited. My comment was specific to PRIVATE land (see bolded word). It is a dadgum good question to ask yourself if you own a piece of PRIVATE land and are thinking about putting a cache on it.

Most states want you to be a licensed or certified electrician before you go messing around with breaker boxes even in your own home.
I'm pretty sure that there's no law against a non-licensed person opening his/her own breaker box and 'messing around' inside. Heck, I did it this weekend.

Dude, are you okay? When do the doctors think you'll be able to leave the hospital?

I had to go to the library and do a lot of research on the safe way to reset that breaker, but I finally figured it out.

Actually, there really is a prescribed safe way to reset a breaker.

Because a breaker is designed to interrupt an excess flow of electrical current, when it trips, it is most likely because the circuit is in such a state that, if reenergized, it will again draw excessive current. in the case of a short-circuit, this excessive current could be literally THOUSANDS of times the normal operating current and on occasion has been known to cause a breaker to EXPLODE quite violently when reset.

(Here's a little trivia for you: a circuit breaker is only REQUIRED to clear a short-circuit ONCE. Many times a breaker will suffer internal damage when it clears a short with a heavy fault current. Theoretically, a breaker that has cleared a heavy short should be replaced - although this is seldom done in the REAL world.)

The correct procedure for resetting a breaker is:

1. Inspect the circuit to find the fault that caused the breaker to trip (if possible) and clear it.

2. Stand at arm's length away from the box and place the index finger of which ever hand you would feel best about living without for the rest of your life on the tripped breaker.

3. turn your head AWAY from the breaker panel (to protect your eyes from possible flash and shrapnel)

4. Engage the breaker.

5. If the breaker trips again immediately DO NOT RESET IT AGAIN until the circuit has been repaired by a qualified electrician

(Yes this is the way I ALWAYS do it.)

Electricity is no joke. It is TOTALLY unforgiving.

And it is a NON-ISSUE in the case currently (pun) before the forum because there is NO ELECTRICITY involved and the "electrical boxes" in question are in such a state of destruction that it is not possible for any rational person to think they could be live. Irrational persons would only need to ignore the cache.

The cache in question should have been approved under current (there's that pun again) guidelines.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Confucius' Cat

8.9k · April 22, 2008

...wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether.

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!

I don't think you understand what the word "ban" means.

Oh, I think I do. I also think you misread my comments? I said I WISHED they would nix them, I never said I was pushing for banning them. Therefore, I'm hardly calling for a ban! But I certainly wouldn't oppose one either!

Oh, I also said I would continue to champion for the labeling....I'm calling for labeling!

Okay I don't see a difference between 1) wishing the site would nix these kinds of hides, and 2) wanting the site to ban these kinds of hides.

But if you say there's a difference I'll let it go.

Asking cachers to make simple changes themselves and asking TPTB to make them go away are totally different...I'm sure you knew that though!!

20.7k · April 22, 2008

I read your posts. I just didn't believe them.
Nope, not an expert at anything, are you now making out that I'm not able to tell what a lock looks like? OK!?! And if you think a little wire with an aluminum tag would stop someone wanting into one of those boxes, you are sadly mistaken!
I disagree. I think that a geocacher who examined an electrical box that had a tamper-seal on it would certainly decide that it was not a fake electrical box and would not open it.
I think differently, can you show proof to back your statement up? No? Then I'll just have to agree that we disagree.

Since you are the one counseling us all on the danger, can you show proof of anyone ever being electrocuted while geocaching because they were somehow 'trained' to look in live electrical boxes, deactivate the safety features of same, and even after opening the box and seeing that it wasn't a cache, further mucked about until they got zapped?

20.7k · April 22, 2008

...wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether.

Not calling for a ban, but certainly wouldn't oppose it!
I don't think you understand what the word "ban" means.
Oh, I think I do. I also think you misread my comments? I said I WISHED they would nix them, I never said I was pushing for banning them. Therefore, I'm hardly calling for a ban! But I certainly wouldn't oppose one either!

Oh, I also said I would continue to champion for the labeling....I'm calling for labeling!

Okay I don't see a difference between 1) wishing the site would nix these kinds of hides, and 2) wanting the site to ban these kinds of hides.

But if you say there's a difference I'll let it go.

Asking cachers to make simple changes themselves and asking TPTB to make them go away are totally different...I'm sure you knew that though!!

True, but you weren't advocating cache owner change with your statement, you were advocating actions by TPTB which would amount to bannination.

I agree with the reviewer and wish they PTB would actually nix these hides altogether. ...

April 22, 2008

I found the one on the transformer box that I was hunting for and it was a great hide. I don't really think there's any danger here. You don't get much closer to the box by finding the hide as you would if you were a shopper parking next to it, and getting out of your car. There are parking spaces right next to the darn thing, and you might even brush up against it getting to and from your car. If these things were a ticking time bomb, I would hope that that retailers would put them in safer places. You can also find these things on a smaller scale all over residential neighborhoods, and yes, from time to time they do go boom, but you don't hear many stories of innocent bystanders being hurt or killed by them. Anyhoodles, everyone be safe out there and enjoy the hunt.

5.7k · April 22, 2008

I have been reading the messages here for several weeks and was surprised to see people have made caches out of electrical boxes. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened what you thought was a cache only to find it was actually a REAL electrical box. Maybe I am out of line here but in my opinion I do not think it is to smart to design a cache like that.

How does a person know for sure it is a cache?

Suppose their screw driver slips on a real electrical box and they are electocuted?

Does anyone else have these concerns?

Please educate me on how and why this is a safe cache.

- you don't know 'for sure'.

- yes, in certain situations, I share this concern.

- it is only a 'safe' cache if in fact it does not contain 'hot' wires AND it is not located so as to induce cache seekers to inadvertantly tamper with nearby similar boxes which mignt in fact contain 'hot' wires.

April 22, 2008

- it is only a 'safe' cache if in fact it does not contain 'hot' wires AND it is not located so as to induce cache seekers to inadvertantly tamper with nearby similar boxes which mignt in fact contain 'hot' wires.

"...if it does not contain 'hot' wires...".

A couple of months ago I was with a small group that found a new cache that was a micro inside an electrical box that was full of old, poorly insulated wires. Lots of poorly attached wire nuts, and a rusty box pretty much guaranteed it wasn't up to code. Old, 1960's style insulation completed the picture.

The box was outside, and had once been used to power an outside store sign. Was the box truly dead? We didn't know. Logic would dictate that it probably was, but since you are allowed only one fatal mistake when fooling around with power boxes, I wasn't too keen to try. I signed the log after someone else retrieved it.

That one came out okay. But, what about the next log hidden inside a power box? We really can't tell what's hot and what's not, if it's full of wires. If it's a fake box, no wires, I'm good with it. If it's ever been a real box, and has wires in it, I'll pass.

April 23, 2008

"...if it does not contain 'hot' wires...".

That one came out okay. But, what about the next log hidden inside a power box? We really can't tell what's hot and what's not, if it's full of wires. If it's a fake box, no wires, I'm good with it. If it's ever been a real box, and has wires in it, I'll pass.

All anyone has to do is look back at the pictures of the denied cache, clear back on the second page of this topic. The HUGE pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words. In this case three words were needed. "It's was Safe."

April 23, 2008

I find it kind of ironic that a community that poopoos small pocket knives in caches would even consider allowing caches that resemble electrical fittings of any sort. As soon as you find one cache in an electrical box, don't you think of of looking in them again? And doesn't that have the potential to lead people to look into real electrical fittings for caches?

We teach our kids not to stick thier fingers into sockets,

and then we place caches that resemble sockets, knowing that people will be sticking their fingers in them.

Or we tuck micros into the innards of light posts, with the wires running inches away.

2.7k · April 23, 2008

...He's only a professionally licensed Electrical Engineer. What does he know anyways?...

Less than a good electrician when it comes to operational safety, unless he was one before he became an engineer. More than an electrician when it comes to specifying equipment. More than you or I, but not so much more that we have to hire him to check our design if we wire our own house. Enough more to where we would gladly hire him for designing our electrical for our business especially with specialized needs and controls. He would know enough to inspect (or know where to look to learn that) but not as much as the electrician when it comes to making the construction look easy. He would know more about the why of things, the contractor more the how of things. He would distance himeself from worksite safety and leave that in the hands of the contractor.

Great Answer!

I should have put a or something similar in that post because the question was meant to be rhetorical. Wow, I can't seem to keep up with the pace of this thread.

Electrical Box Caches?

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