Public Infrastructure

[+flatlander]

Dear Community,

 

Yesterday (08/25/05) at about 6:00p.m. UCPD responded to a report of a suspicious package near the new Physical Sciences building. Our officers were told that two people were seen going into the bushes with a metal box and that the individuals hid the box near a tree and left. UCPD officers went into this area and found a metal dark green military ammunition container camouflaged with paint and shrubbery. Based upon these odd circumstances and the possibility that the container might have some type of explosives within it; UCPD established! ! a safety perimeter, evacuated the Physical Science building and closed down a portion of Big Springs Road. The Riverside Police Department's Bomb Squad also responded to the area. During the course of these proceedings, the two previously observed individuals returned. They explained that they were a part of a scavenger hunt and that the container was not dangerous and contained clues related to the game. Upon further investigation, theses claims were determined to be true. By about 7:30p.m. the roadway and building were re-opened.

 

UCPD would like to take this opportunity to discourage individuals from playing such games. If you are a part of a scavenger hunt and have placed such items on our campus, remove them immediately. UCPD continues to encourage our community to contact us if suspicious activities or packages are discovered. Do not attempt to approach or tamper with ! ! a suspicious package and call UCPD at 827-5222 (non-emergency) or dial 911 in the case of an emergency.

 

Mike Lane

Chief of Police

[+Renegade Knight]

I would be happy to work with you to establish guidelines on how to prevent these occurrences. However it's only fair to point out a few things.

 

First, people in the past have planted bombs. The need to disable those bombs when they occur has led to the development of the "Bomb Squad". The need to spot them has led to the encouragement of people reporting things that look suspicious. The reports of things that look suspicious leads to false alarms. The false alarms are not the fault of anyone, they are merely a by product of being vigilant, something you asked for in your post. Given the increased vigilance star wars toys, laptops, boxes of personal effects and exotic foods have given rise to calls that ended up being practice for the real thing.

 

At no time should we ever have to give up our activities, hobbies, star wars toys, laptops, personal effects, or exotic foods just because some idiot made a bomb that started the entire chain. We are willing to work with you on guidelines to lessen these incidences, but you should not be discouraging us from enjoying life. Instead you should be helping us to make your job easier while still allowing for the enjoyment we get from this activity.

[+Renegade Knight]

Public Infrastructure is a broad category that covers parks, open space, water mains, roads, bridges and the like. Only some of those are high risk. Police Stations, Schools, Dams, Highway Briges, RailRoads, Major Power Plants. We have learned what we have through trial and error and don’t allow caches at those locations. So far no one with training and knowledge has bothered to help with guidelines, though more than a few have postured and made dramatic news bytes for the benifit of the press. Not everyone knows that a physical plant is a small power station. Education goes a long ways.

 

The only guide I have seen is this:

http://gulliver.trb.org/publications/nchrp...p_rpt_525v1.pdf

 

It’s no much help for geocaching.

Edited August 31, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+Wreck Diver]

Chief Lane,

 

As a police officer and a firefighter, I have no doubt that the UCPD handled the report of a suspicious package correctly, and that the suspicious package was handled as a potential threat so as to ensure officer and public safety.

 

A geocaching.com guideline is that caches require approval of the property managers or other officials prior to cache placement and cache submission to geocaching.com. This is supposed to be resolved prior to listing and approval.

 

Geocaching.com also requires that the cache containers are properly marked and clearly indicated as geocaches. Here is an example of a properly marked container:

 

 

Unfortunately, as newer cachers experience creative puzzles, forgotten history, or innovative hides, they sometimes rush into the realm of geocaching with a zeal that occludes thought of the political climate or the public safety implications.

 

These well-intentioned efforts by the inexperienced are the ones that generally lead to public safety intervention.

 

As an experienced geocacher that is also involved in public safety, I am sorry to hear that you and your department became aware of geocaching and geocaching.com through this event.

[bogleman]

Are you posting an article regarding this incident or did you have direct involvement, I am a little confused?? I am a LEO as well and I understand where the concern comes from but I see no need to discourage geocaching because of someones poor planning.

[+flatlander]

This was the Email we received from the Campus police regarding an incedent the required the evacuation of a several story building and the surrounding area for severa; blocks. There have been several caches around campus that are placed directly on buildings and some attached to bridges. I posted this because it concerns me tthat the behavior of a few will spoil the game for the rest of us. I wasn't sure where to post this so if there is a better forum let me know. I have stopped searching for urban caches because I don't want to be held accountable for any incedents such as UCR's.

Just a thought..

[+Criminal]

Geocaching.com also requires that the cache containers are properly marked and clearly indicated as geocaches.

Requires?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Geocaching.com also requires that the cache containers are properly marked and clearly indicated as geocaches.

Requires?

Encourages

[+WeightMan]

Geocaching.com also requires that the cache containers are properly marked and clearly indicated as geocaches.

Requires?

Encourages

Suggests

[4wheelin_fool]

Ammo boxes should be hidden far in the woods. Other locations near public buildings should be in lock-n-locks or clear containers.

[+tozainamboku]

PyroDave opened a thread in the Geocaching Topics forum with a link to this this one asking a mod to move this thread to the Geocaching Topic forum hoping this would get a bigger audience there. The thread PyroDave opened in the Geocaching Topics was locked as a duplicate of this thread. Maybe there should be two threads, one here "My cache was blown up by the bomb squad", and another more serious discussion of when not to use ammo cans, when to get permission, how to better educate LE, etc. belongs in the general Geocaching Topics. I prefer that specific incidents are not discussed as this incident was discussed in the Southern California Geocachers forums where it degraded into a lot of unneccessary name calling and blame placing. I wouldn't want to see happen here.

[+ODragon]

UCPD

Might help to point out who UCPD are?

 

(I'm assuming it's a college town PD but maybe not... knowing where things like this happens often help them from happening again).

[+mtn-man]

Since this is a California issue, I am going to move it to the regional forum.

[+Renegade Knight]

Ammo boxes should be hidden far in the woods. Other locations near public buildings should be in lock-n-locks or clear containers.

Not quite.

 

Any container can and will be used for a bomb. I'm not sure that any real bombs have used ammo cans though real bombs have used plastic containers. A The "clear" is merely a feel good measure. There is some merit in that a non threatening container may not have a person call the cache in as a bomb. The best advice so far is to hide your cache so that a muggle won't find it on accident to make the call to begin with.

 

When the bomb squad shows up, protocal takes over. They will follow it and if they can not positivly ID the container as 'not a bomb' they will destroy it. Positivly ID doesn't mean that a cacher can come along and say "It's a cache, I'll open it and show you" that has been tried and the cacher was sent packing. Meanwhile the bomb squad destroyed the cache anyway. Protocal, Protocal, Protocal. The sherrif of that county threatened to have that cacher pay for the cost for 'causing' the incident. The cause of the incident wasn't the cacher, or the cache owner, or the responders, or the person reporting it. The cause was the simple fact that we have to look out and report things in a post 9/11 world as we go about our daily lives. We are not going to give up our daily lives, or that means that the strategy of the people behind 9/11 and others like them is working.

 

There are some public buildings that should not have a physical cache by them at all regardless of container type. Call it a concession to reality. There is no reason to give up our activity, but there is no reason not to make everones job a bit easier either.

 

One of the irony's is that geocachers get accused of making our containers look like bombs. That's a bunch of malarky. We make caches and unless you have the right background you have no clue what a bomb looks like. If you do have the right background odds are your caches don't look like that. Any resemblence to a bomb is purley coincidental. Of course we can add backpacks to the list of what bombs look like. At least nobody uses a backpack for a cache...

[bogleman]

Regardless of what the container looks like or if it is clearly marked if LEO perceives a threat action will be taken. Correct me if I am wrong (I am sure someone will) but a campus building is not Public Infrastructure rather a private institution. Public infrastructure would be an airport, bridge ect – areas that are prohibited by Groundspeak guidelines.

[+dkwolf]

Regardless of what the container looks like or if it is clearly marked if LEO perceives a threat action will be taken. Correct me if I am wrong (I am sure someone will) but a campus building is not Public Infrastructure rather a private institution. Public infrastructure would be an airport, bridge ect – areas that are prohibited by Groundspeak guidelines.

Hey, you knew it was coming..

 

Any STATE college IS public infrastructure, and even the private colleges, which facilitate basically the entire life of their students can be considered public infrastructure.

 

There are many locations we consider public access, but in truth they are privately owned and maintained. If you ask me, if you can randomly walk onto the grounds or into a building without being questioned, and arousing little or no suspicion, it should be considered public infrastructure for the sake of caching.

[+Dave_W6DPS]

Might help to point out who UCPD are?

 

(I'm assuming it's a college town PD but maybe not...  knowing where things like this happens often help them from happening again).

That would be University of California Police Department. This incident happened at the UC Riverside campus. There are rumblings and rumors that an outright ban of geocaching on any UC campus is being discussed, and would have already happened if the UCPD made the rules. The Board of Governors for the UC system would have to act to invoke a formal ban.

 

Dave_W6DPS

[PyroDave]

Im curently in school and on my camus theres only one cache and my school has a awsome conservation program suprises me theres only one cache on campus. Thats gona change very soon though but before i place one I'm gona make shure to contact the head of securety and aleart him to the fact that the'll be a amo box in the woods. I think in this case doing the same could have posably solved the prob.

 

Pyro

[+Renegade Knight]

On a campus in Logan I bumped into Security while looking for a cache. I told him what I was doing, told him where I was going next and he got a kick out of trying to figure out based on my GPS map where the cache was at. His guess was within 100'. Not bad. He was very interested in geocaching and ready to dust off his GPS. When he left he was talkinga about a bunch of great spots he knew about from hunting.

 

Police can respond in two ways. "Ban it, ban it all' mostly that's about making their job easier without regard for the public that enjoys the activity. Or they can see that it's a harmless activity, with some unintended consequences entirly out of innocence, and that with or without caching you will get the same false alarms (and you can do about the same thing to have less of the alarms related to cachign). I much prefer the latter. Alas the former never seem to pony up and follow through with working with us so that their job might actually get easier when something goes wrong.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+RussellM]

Lets all take a nice, relaxing, deep breath. And write geocache on the outside of the container.

[+Dave_W6DPS]

Lets all take a nice, relaxing, deep breath. And write geocache on the outside of the container.

This ammo box was clearly marked as a geocache, but the officers didn't get close enough to read it after it was reported--just taped off a large area and called the bomb squad.

 

This kind of thing is happening way too often out here. Discretion is not only the better part of valor, but an essential ingredient in hiding a cache, along with securing proper permission before placing.

 

Dave_W6DPS

[+HelBob Duo]

There are rumblings and rumors that an outright ban of geocaching on any UC campus is being discussed, and would have already happened if the UCPD made the rules. The Board of Governors for the UC system would have to act to invoke a formal ban.

 

That would sure be bad news for UCSD. There are 1/2 a dozen wonderful caches on the campus & in the attached "forest". The Security know about us loonies running around caching. They've caught us enough times! Especially with the Wizard cache series.

[+mishyfoot]

personally, although going to such extremes seems incredibly silly, i think its not in the grand scheme of things.

 

honestly, if i did not have a clue about caching, i would find it very strange for a couple of people who are probably looking around, making sure that no one is watching, and concealing a medium sized container to be suspicious. bomb wouldnt be the first thing to pop into my head, but i have not been trained to think that.

 

if something were to happen (God-forbid!) like a bomb going off and it surfaced that someone had noticed such supicious behavior, the public would have flipped.

 

they are just doing their jobs.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Yes, they are just doing their jobs. The circumstances of each incident should dictate how they respond, rather than "that looks suspicious it must be a terrorist"

 

It's our job as geocachers to not look suspicious, after all we're just playing a version of "hide and seek".

[+Green Achers]

Lets all take a nice, relaxing, deep breath. And write geocache on the outside of the container.

This ammo box was clearly marked as a geocache, but the officers didn't get close enough to read it after it was reported--just taped off a large area and called the bomb squad.

Whoa. It doesn't matter if it says 'GEOCACHING' on the out side guys. Bad people don't always tell the truth. Just because a shoe box left on a doorstep says 'NIKE' doesn't make anyone feel better.

 

The size and location on the other hand make a hugh difference. Who cares about a 5 gallon bucket in a forest? No one. But placed (fill in the blank), you'll have front page coverage. On the other hand, a 'blinker' (which is the size of a pea) could be placed almost anywhere and even if located by a muggle, it would never draw out the big guys.

 

IMHO, It's every Geocachers responsibility to think about what other people will think - in both placing as well as hunt caches. If we can't minimize these bad press events, we'll all lose out!

Edited November 25, 2005 by Green Achers