A Question / Comment About Virtual Caches

[+JRTTeam]

I don't know if others besides me can see the virtual cache that I submitted:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...19-4e9e36876cdd

 

It has a helicopter on display there:

 

http://www.longhill.us/copter.jpg

 

But it was turned down and it was an interesting learning experience. I wasn't familiar with the rules:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#virtual

 

I remember finding a virual cache with my son at the Atlantis hotel - a fountain of horses.

 

I'm curious of people can see this unapproved cache and feel it should / shouldn't be approved.

 

Virtual Cache Posting Guidelines - from the rules link above:

 

1. A virtual cache must be a physical object that can be referenced through latitude and longitude coordinates.- YES.

That object should be semi-permanent to permanent - YES

 

A trail is a trail, a beach is a beach, a view is a view; but a trail/beach/view is NOT a virtual cache. A cache has to be a specific distinct GPS target - not something large like a mountain top or a park, however special those locations are. my thinking / opinion is that a vantage point in a park to see a great view IS / SHOULD BE allowed as a cache.

 

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects - a helicopter in the middle of town? I think that meets it?prospective finder. Signs, memorials, tombstones or historical markers are among the items that are generally too common to qualify as virtual caches. Unusual landmarks or items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples. If you don't know if it is appropriate, contact your local approver first, or post a question to the forums about your idea.

 

3. There should be one or more questions about an item at a location, something seen at that location, etc., that only the visitor to that physical location will be able to answer. The questions should be difficult enough that it cannot be answered through library or web research. The use of a "certificate of achievement" or similar item is not a substitute for the find verification requirement. There's a logo on the top of the 'copter and I ask what type of animal is it. I don't know how many different animals were used in army insignias, but the answer is likely in a library. if the guy wants to go to the library and guess / not get off their butt and look for the cache, I think he's just cheating himself / not much you can do about it / shouldn't penalize other cachers from going to see this neat item?

 

Any thoughts?

[+Mopar]

You forgot these parts of those guidelines:

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.  This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache.  If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

 

Note:  Physical caches are the basis of the activity. Virtual caches were created due to the inaccessibility of caching in areas that discourage it.  Please keep that in mind when submitting your cache report. 

 

 

Note:  Physical caches are the basis of the activity. Virtual caches were created due to the inaccessibility of caching in areas that discourage it.  Please keep in mind physical caches are the prime goal when submitting your cache report. 

 

Virtual Caches

 

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of a permanent object at a location that was already there. Typically, the cache “hider” creates a virtual cache at a location where physical caches are not permitted. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

 

Prior to considering a virtual cache, you must have given consideration to the question “why couldn’t a microcache or multi-cache be placed there?”  Physical caches have priority, so please consider adding a micro or making the location a step in an offset or multi-stage cache with the physical cache placed in an area that is appropriate.

[CoyoteRed]

Go to the dollar store, buy a magnetic key holder. Print a nice cache sheet/log. Place the cache.

 

BAM! You're in business.

 

Alternative: Altoids breath strip container painted OD green or whatever color that is.

[+RichardMoore]

That shrub next to the building would be a good place for a "small" container.

[+mtn-man]

2. A virtual cache must be novel, of interest to other players, and have a special historic, community or geocaching quality that sets it apart from everyday subjects - a helicopter in the middle of town?  I think that meets it?

Actually, it is more common than you think.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=20818

 

That cache page has over 1,700 photos. I found several helicopters in the first few pages. You can log that cache with a find I suppose, but this is pretty common.

[+The Leprechauns]

While returning from a marathon caching trip on Saturday, our group passed an Apache helicopter on display in a small town along a state highway. Everyone said "ooooh... possible micro" and nobody said "virtworthy."

 

As there was a nice artillery piece on display a bit further down the road, and this relatively cache-poor area is about 25 miles from my house, I may start on a series of military micros!

[+YuccaPatrol]

Coyote Red has the best and simplest idea: make it a micro cache.

 

I'd much rather find a micro on the pedestal base than just find a huge helicopter in a park as a virtual.

 

With the grass grown right up to the pedestal and no visible barrier to prevent one from walking right up to it, I think it is something that any interested person might walk up to and check out.

 

If not on the pedestal, there should be a great place for a micro at the edge of this grassy field.

[+Renegade Knight]

The guidelines such as they are can be used to turn down any virtual whatsoever.

 

I have become convinced that the best way to get a vitual cache approved is to email your local approver when you get the idea. That way you can work out the bugs and get a feel for their own personal approval viewpoints on virtuals.

 

In the end virtuals guidelines are very subject to subjective intrepretations of the rules. It's unavoidable with how they are written. This is in spite of efforts made by approvers to try and be consistant.

 

My best advice is to email your approver and see if you can't work it out. If you can't and you are dead set on a virtual, list it elsewere.

[umc]

How about making it a stage in a multi cache instead of a micro?

[caverns]

Navicache allows virtuals if you hit a dead end.

[+Ladybug Kids]

I ran into a similar issue with a virtual I wanted to establish in New York that was related to Alaska, where I live. The local reviewer rejected the virtual idea because a micro could be hidden at the location, or numbers on the various plaques at the location could be manipulated to provide coordinates for an offset cache or a stage of a multicache. Being that I live 3200 miles away and get to the area only once a year, I felt I could not assure proper cache maintenance. So, I contacted one of the local New York cachers (who had placed several of the caches we found in New York during our last visit) about helping out with a physical cache. It turns out that he had attended school in the same location I had suggested for the cache he is excited about working together on creating the cache. He'll place the physical cache and do the maintenance and I'll create the html for the cache page and provide Alaskan-themed trade goods.

[+CO Admin]

I ran into a similar issue with a virtual I wanted to establish in New York that was related to Alaska, where I live. The local reviewer rejected the virtual idea because a micro could be hidden at the location, or numbers on the various plaques at the location could be manipulated to provide coordinates for an offset cache or a stage of a multicache. Being that I live 3200 miles away and get to the area only once a year, I felt I could not assure proper cache maintenance. So, I contacted one of the local New York cachers (who had placed several of the caches we found in New York during our last visit) about helping out with a physical cache. It turns out that he had attended school in the same location I had suggested for the cache he is excited about working together on creating the cache. He'll place the physical cache and do the maintenance and I'll create the html for the cache page and provide Alaskan-themed trade goods.

Good for you.

Sounds like the reviewers suggestion was a great idea.

[+briansnat]

Navicache allows virtuals if you hit a dead end.

I think he wants people know about it.

Edited December 8, 2004 by briansnat

[+planetrobert]

Navicache allows virtuals if you hit a dead end.

so does waypoint.org oh wait, that site is a collection of virts.

 

now don't take this wrong, I have nothing against then actually. i used to... but i have mellowed about them.

[+JRTTeam]

Thanks for the comments. As for a micro cache, 2 things

 

1. In today's environment, in the middle of a small town looking around for a cache will likely get the local police responding? In the middle of a wooded park, no problem spending 10s of minutes looking around.

 

2. Speaking of rules, they also say that you should / need to get permission to hide the cache? Realistically who do you talk to that has the authority / willingness to say yes? It's easier for a beaurocrat (sp?) to say no and CYA than say yes. And even if you say yes, who's to say that person does have the authority? Parks dept. supercedes public works? Police supercede Parks? Rock, paper Scizzors?

 

What's with that locationless cache category?! I have to read up on THAT. Sounds neat. But backwards? Everyone caching is looking for a different item tied to the topic? Interesting.

 

And yeah, I read the rules, so no need to snip them. My point in this thread was to comment that I think the rules as they are, for a virtual cache are a bit restrictive. Some said they'd rather find a mini vs a virtual. I would love a virtual that gets me somewhere interesting. It comes down to what you want out of the hobby and should Jeremy / this site be too restrictive to direct the hobby 1 way or another? you are free to not bother looking for a virtual if you don't want to find that type of cache. But should people be restricted from listing a virtual cache because it's a great 'view' rather than there's something interesting there?

 

I and my family love caching - it gets us outside and to very interesting places. GIven the option, I'd love to have the choice of looking for 1 or more of 100 caches, some virtuals, some not, vs. having to choose from 50 caches that are only physical caches...

 

I am the search engine. Don't prefilter the potential sites for me?

[+briansnat]

Speaking of rules, they also say that you should / need to get permission to hide the cache?

 

No they don't. THey say you need "adequate permission". If its public property and there is no prohibition against geocaching and no policy requiring permission, you have adequate permission.

 

In today's environment, in the middle of a small town looking around for a cache will likely get the local police responding?

 

True, but there are thousands of micros placed in high traffic areas that are logged every day without incident. If its property that is open to the public, you have every right to be there and if the police are called, you can inform them of that fact. The problem occurs when someone spots a container and reports it as a bomb. This is far less likely to happen if its a micro.

 

Another option is to use numbers or letters found on the object, perhaps a plate with a serial number, to create an offset to a real cache that's hidden a distance away in a less conspicuious area.

Edited December 9, 2004 by briansnat

[+Mopar]

Well, if you read the guidelines, you already know you can't submit a locationless cache.

 

As for virtuals, it boils down to this. This is a privately owned website, the only rules are the ones the owner wants to make. That's his right. It's your right to decide if you want to use his site or not.

Since I'm a car guy, I'll use my car analogy.

 

Jeremy's Car dealership sells Saturns. He also used to sell Fords, but the Saturn business was good, and the Fords were a lot of hassles. He decided to concentrate on making Jeremy's Cars the BEST Saturn dealer out there, and it is. He still has some Fords on the lot leftover. He's not gonna just junk a perfectly good car, but he also isn't actively ordering more. Just sell off what's left. Occasionally a spectacular new model Ford still comes along and catches his eye, so he gets one and puts on the lot, but those are few and far between. If you want a Saturn, go see Jeremy for the best deal. If you really have your heart set on a Ford, you probably need to look elsewhere. Just because you happen to see a few Fords on Jeremy's lot, doesn't mean he's gonna stock them all. You might try one of the smaller dealerships in town like Quinn's Autorama down the street. They don't have a huge selection, but they have a little of everything, and they might have what you want. Now, if you are willing to reconsider and drive a Saturn, Jeremy can offer you a deal on one that the smaller places can't touch.

 

It's all about choices. Not just your choice, but the site owner's choice as well.

[+VisionQuest220]

I like the idea of making it a stage in a multi. Perhaps you can use some of the numerical marking on the 'copter (assuming it has any) as part of the process for determining the coordinates of the next stage...which could lead to a public library where the finder may need to look up a reference on the history of the 'copter.

 

Use your creative mind and you'll come up with a great solution for using this location as part of a cache.