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What Are We Allowed To Discuss?


SFABobby03
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What is allowed for discussion here? I am so confused. After just noticing that Admin closed a thread that was kinda joking about a cache being put at Osama's house because it is in someway political I am confused as this seems silly. I might get kicked outta here or banned or whatever for this but it seems so silly. I mean we aren't in the 1st grade. I don't even see how that could be seen as political. I thought I would enjoy Geocaching and I was fixing to subscribe but after looking at these forums and the Communist rule of them, I am done with it. I ain't gonna come back and I think a great sport has been ruined. Sure hope people here change in the future and maybe then it could be fun.

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The game is RUINED because you can't talk politics in a forums that's specifically to "Discuss Geocaching and related topics here."???

 

It hasn't been ruined in almost 5yrs like this, I doubt the act of geocaching was ruined today by not letting people discuss OBL.

 

If you can't chase a box of McToys in the woods without discussing politics online, then this might not be the activity for you.

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Go read the thread. It wasn't political.

I don't need to read it. Just a look at the topic "Here's An Interesting Cache Idea, Osama's House" and I can tell it's not seriously geocaching related. Since it doesn't belong here (there is an off topic area for stuff like that for members who help subsidize the free users), I skip it.

Edited by Mopar
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What is allowed for discussion here?

This forum is for discussing geocaching.

 

I thought I would enjoy Geocaching and I was fixing to subscribe but after looking at these forums and the Communist rule of them, I am done with it. I ain't gonna come back and I think a great sport has been ruined. Sure hope people here change in the future and maybe then it could be fun.

 

You're obviously mistaking the sport of geocaching for this website's discussion forums. To say you're through with geocaching because of something that happened in these forums is like saying you're through with skiing because of something someone wrote in a skiing forum, or you're through with watching football because of something a newspaper columnist wrote.

 

Thousands of people geocache without ever visiting the discussion forums here and there are numerous geocachers who participate in the sport without even visiting this website.

Edited by briansnat
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The Off Topic forum was created for abject sillyness and just about anything else one wants to talk about , :lol: But wait , you must be a premium member to have access to that particular forum.

 

I wouldn't however let what goes on in any of the forums keep you from enjoying geocaching to the fullest . One does not need to post anything in the forums to enjoy the game .

 

As for reading the thread , maybe we all would if you would be so kind as to link it for us .

 

Star of Team Tigger International

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Oh, well, I dunno. An article about a Pakistani journalist who uses a GPSr and gives the coordinates of a house Osama slept in is a good deal more on-topic than, say, a discussion of the movie National Treasure, I would have thought. Rules inconsistently applied are frustrating to live with.

 

But I wouldn't let it ruin my cornflakes, is all...

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What is allowed for discussion here? I am so confused. After just noticing that Admin closed a thread that was kinda joking about a cache being put at Osama's house because it is in someway political I am confused as this seems silly. I might get kicked outta here or banned or whatever for this but it seems so silly. I mean we aren't in the 1st grade. I don't even see how that could be seen as political. I thought I would enjoy Geocaching and I was fixing to subscribe but after looking at these forums and the Communist rule of them, I am done with it. I ain't gonna come back and I think a great sport has been ruined. Sure hope people here change in the future and maybe then it could be fun.

This forum is to discuss geocaching.

 

Most users here appreciate the fact that the mods here try to keep it that way.

We like the fact that we don't have to weed through 90% of the posts being about porn sites, who's a 133t llama l0s3r d00d, or what kind of homework some kid got last week like most other internet forums. There's plenty of places to go to talk about that stuff. The forums here has one of the best signal to noise ratios of any forum I've ever seen (and I've been online since 1980). It's also got the least amount of flame wars and BS. They must be doing something right here.

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Something smells fishy about the original post in this thread. Been around forums long enough to know it just doesn't feel right.

 

Oh...and people should not have unrealistic expectations about the mods and inconsistancies. They are regular people like you and me, who are doing the site and all of us a favor, by VOLUNTEERING their time to help this place out. They each have their different personalities and life experiences. So it's inevitable, that they will sometimes act and react differently from each other, on issues that come up. What one mod would allow, another would not (sometimes). If you remind yourself to give a little slack because of all that, you'll see that their actions are generally pretty fair, based on the rules and guidelines. I've been a "mod" on BB's and channel OP and IRCop on IRC networks, and it's soooo true that your biggest "reward" for helping out, is people always griping and giving you a hard time.

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I am surprised that this thread isn't closed yet. Seems it's not about seeking a cache but more of trying to defend and trash mods.

 

Hmmm, seems I did that last night and it was closed within 4 posts.

 

Maybe just certian people are being targeted.

 

However, as some have said I won't let this forum stuff take away from my fun of caching.

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Something smells fishy about the original post in this thread. Been around forums long enough to know it just doesn't feel right.

Of course. It's very likely a sock puppet account started by someone who got his feelings hurt and came back to grouse anonymously.

 

"Regular people" come in a variety of styles and qualities, some temperamentally better suited to the duties of forum moderation than others.

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What is allowed for discussion here? I am so confused. After just noticing that Admin closed a thread that was kinda joking about a cache being put at Osama's house because it is in someway political I am confused as this seems silly. I might get kicked outta here or banned or whatever for this but it seems so silly. I mean we aren't in the 1st grade. I don't even see how that could be seen as political. I thought I would enjoy Geocaching and I was fixing to subscribe but after looking at these forums and the Communist rule of them, I am done with it. I ain't gonna come back and I think a great sport has been ruined. Sure hope people here change in the future and maybe then it could be fun.

Depending on the day and mood, a lot or a little...

 

tips to keepying your thread open:

1. start out with a topic thats somehow related to caching, so its not locked for be total nothingness

2. keep it related to geocaching and the topic that the thread was started about, so its not locked for going offtopic

3. big mod is always watching :lol: , and if they bother to post a warning about getting borderline, they're serious but for some reason haven't lock the thread yet.

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This topic should be closed. The forums are for discussing geocaching;

the forums are not designed for discussing the discussion of geocaching.

Discussing the discussion of geocaching should be reserved for the off topic forums where discussing the discussion of geocaching is always open for discussion. :lol::D:D

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This topic should be closed. The forums are for discussing geocaching;

the forums are not designed for discussing the discussion of geocaching.

Discussing the discussion of geocaching should be reserved for the off topic forums where discussing the discussion of geocaching is always open for discussion. :lol::D:D

Is discussing this cussing allowed? What about the discussion of this cushion?

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This topic should be closed. The forums are for discussing geocaching;

the forums are not designed for discussing the discussion of geocaching.

Discussing the discussion of geocaching should be reserved for the off topic forums where discussing the discussion of geocaching is always open for discussion. :lol::D:D

Wouldn't discussing the discussion of geocaching be "on topic", and therefore off topic in the off topic forum, thus meriting closure of the on topic thread in the off topic forum? Of course, being on topic and therefore off topic in the off topic forum, creates a wicked loop because once you declare it off topic it legally could be declared as a valid thread for the off topic forum....but once in the off topic forum, it would again be off topic for that forum, due to it being an on topic thread.

 

I do believe, this would trigger the Apocalypse.

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To put this in perspective, I'll paraphrase what I told a buddy of mine...

 

Folks who take this game too seriously forget how to have fun.

 

The same holds true if you take these forums too seriously. You're forgetting how to have fun. Try not to equate having fun looking for the geocache with enforced guidelines in the forums.

 

IF you want to go off-topic, perhaps becoming a paid member should be the way to go. Then you can use the off-topic forum to your heart's content and have joy in your being once again.

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The answer to the question posed by the thread title is:

 

Anything that is not seen as critical of the website while discussing the game of geocaching.

 

Anyone that says otherwise is simply lying to attempt to maintain the sembalence of "open discussion" as a policy or hasn't truely tried to be critical of a non-technical, non-trivial flaw they see in how this website is operated.

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The answer to the question posed by the thread title is:

 

Anything that is not seen as critical of the website while discussing the game of geocaching.

 

Anyone that says otherwise is simply lying to attempt to maintain the sembalence of "open discussion" as a policy or hasn't truely tried to be critical of a non-technical, non-trivial flaw they see in how this website is operated.

Gee, thanks for calling me (and anyone else who holds the same opinion) a liar. I'll thank you in advance for not saying that again, as it's disrespectful.

 

You have your opinion, I have mine. I am obligated to respect yours, you are obligated to respect mine. Same goes for everyone else. Discuss those differences of opinion all you'd like, but do so within the boundaries of the forum guidelines. Dissect the opinion, rather than attacking or labelling the person who holds that opinion.

 

Proof that controversial discussions critical of the website are just fine can be found by paging through the Geocaching Topics forum and the Geocaching.com Forum. You'll find a few topics on each page that have been closed by a moderator, and dozens more that haven't. Many of those other threads are chock full of controversy and conflicting opinions. Why the difference? In the closed topics, one or more posters violated the forum guidelines, either when starting the thread or for posting to it with personal attacks, off-topic remarks, etc. In the vast majority of threads that remained open, discussion more or less stayed respectful.

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you can discuss buxley's for a while, but don't try to press TPTB for an answer :lol:

That's not quite right.

You can discuss stuff, and TPTB can answer it.

 

The problem seems to come when you post the same thing another 400 times after that because you aren't getting the answer you want to hear or you aren't getting it fast enough, or when you try to derail another thread onto the subject of a locked thread.

Edited by Mopar
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Proof that controversial discussions critical of the website are just fine can be found by paging through the Geocaching Topics forum and the Geocaching.com Forum. You'll find a few topics on each page that have been closed by a moderator, and dozens more that haven't. Many of those other threads are chock full of controversy and conflicting opinions. Why the difference? In the closed topics, one or more posters violated the forum guidelines, either when starting the thread or for posting to it with personal attacks, off-topic remarks, etc. In the vast majority of threads that remained open, discussion more or less stayed respectful.

If you could provide a link or two to specific topics that contained a controversial issue on a non-technical matter of how this website "stewards" geocaching and was not closed, I'd appreciate it. It would enable me to learn by example how to be a better forum poster.

 

I submit that many times one of these topics is closed because the moderator doesn't like the views posed and not because the issue or topic had been a problem to the forum. The Buxley-related post is the latest example of this. While the closure is deemed "temporary", there was no harm in having the two people still posting there going back and forth. Even if that were the case, those 2 people should have been moderated...not the post itself. By closing that thread, it will disappear and the contention that this website has developed and maintained a botched policy towards accessory websites goes with it. Thread closure should be limited to threads that are not appropriate for the forum used. Users should be moderated for their own posts within a thread. Threads based on contentious ideas should be viewed from a far less rose-colored glass than the moderators here choose to use. Contentious ideas are not bad or wrong ideas. The watchers just don't like having others watch them.

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This topic should be closed.  The forums are for discussing geocaching;

the forums are not designed for discussing the discussion of geocaching.

Discussing the discussion of geocaching should be reserved for the off topic forums where discussing the discussion of geocaching is always open for discussion.  :lol:  :D  :D

Is discussing this cussing allowed? What about the discussion of this cushion?

Discussing the discussion of "geocaching" would probably get sent back to the general forums....because of "The Word". But I do agree that we could dicuss cussing allowed & even cushions in the off topic forums. Just keep "The Word" out of our Off topic, otherwise it will be Off topic in the Off topic which will be a reason to start cussing the people who post in the On topic forums for moving this *&^%$ thread over to the Off topic.

 

There - that clears things up. Either close it here or keep it here....do not move it to the Off Topic forum....we do not want "The Word" there.... :D:D

 

Shirley~ :D

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As requested, here are some examples of recent topics where matters of controversy concerning the Geocaching.com website were discussed, without the thread being locked due to Forum Guideline violations:

 

Thread comparing Navicache and Geocaching.com

Discussion of the Site's policy regarding "Caches that Solicit"/Charity Donations

The role of this site, and individual geocachers, in avoiding "The End of Geocaching"

Criticism of how the new Earthcache type is set up and administered

Debating the boundaries of the site's guidelines about "Commercial Caches"

Discussing the site's preference for multicaches vs. a series of closely spaced caches ("Saturation Rule")

Merits of a Cache Rating System & how to implement it

Standards for Virtual Cache Listings

Listing of Caches with Unusual Logging Requirements

 

I looked at two forums and just threads active in the past week. I could look at the previous week, too.

 

I also scanned the two most controversial forums (Geocaching Topics and Geocaching.com Discussion) for the past four pages, and found about 16 threads locked by moderators out of a total of 400 threads. Four percent.

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As requested, here are some examples of recent topics where matters of controversy concerning the Geocaching.com website were discussed, without the thread being locked due to Forum Guideline violations:

 

Thread comparing Navicache and Geocaching.com

Discussion of the Site's policy regarding "Caches that Solicit"/Charity Donations

The role of this site, and individual geocachers, in avoiding "The End of Geocaching"

Criticism of how the new Earthcache type is set up and administered

Debating the boundaries of the site's guidelines about "Commercial Caches"

Discussing the site's preference for multicaches vs. a series of closely spaced caches ("Saturation Rule")

Merits of a Cache Rating System & how to implement it

Standards for Virtual Cache Listings

Listing of Caches with Unusual Logging Requirements

 

Oh man a whole bunch of threads that have controversy around them and I don't think I posted to any of them. I have some work to do. :lol:

 

Actually I have found that in most cases threads can be critical of TPTB and they get left open. If they don't turn into name calling or degrade to the point of having moved so far off topic that one has to go back 12 pages to see what started all of this.

 

The only problem I have is that in fact the thread does get closed. That is not really fair to those that did not cause problems in the thread or to those that did not contribute and were only following. Yes mod those individuals and not the thread. The other part of that problem is that some mod(s) have a different level of what is OK and when it is time to lock. That has steamed me the most. If the mod had/has a problem with what I said fine, tell me about it, give me a warning, whatever. But it is not fair to the rest of the community to close the thread because of that.

 

The Buxley thread is a good example. Maybe it had changed course, maybe the same things were being asked over and over. But so what? I don't know if or how future information will be transmitted. TPTB may see the discussion and outcome with Buxley as a private matter. Buxley may or may not want to start a new thread on this. Of course they then run the risk of violating TOS for opening a thread on the same topic as one that has been closed. So it does create a little problem by having that thread closed.

 

But in the end slap the hands of the individual not the whole community by closing threads. I just don't see it as being productive. If people are getting tired of what is being said they will stop reading it.

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Both ju66l3r and GrizzlyJohn have urged that threads be allowed to remain open, and to apply moderation to offending users and posts rather than to threads which others may wish to continue. In principle, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

In the first instance, when there is a Forum Guidelines problem within an otherwise appropriate thread, the moderators try to address it without closing the thread. This can be done through an informal warning right in the topic itself, through an informal private message to a poster, or through issuing a formal warning ("spiking the warn meter"). Folks cannot see the private messages and warnings, but rest assured, these means of communication are used frequently. In the past 24 hours, I've used all three techniques. There is an escalating range of remedies based on the seriousness of the violation and whether prior moderation attempts have been ignored.

 

Sometimes, however, a topic is irretrievably broken. Either it violates the forum guidelines from the beginning -- in which case it is closed as promptly as possible -- or it is "derailed" irretrievably. A derailment can occur when the thread goes off topic, when people get involved in a flame war and won't heed moderators' warnings to stop, etc.

 

Knowing when to stop moderating a community member and instead locking a thread is often a matter of judgment; an art rather than a science. As in all matters of judgment, others will differ with the moderator's decision and sometimes the moderators will not agree among themselves. We do our best to coordinate by communicating with each other, by the way. We do this via private messages, through posts in our reviewer forum, and even real time conversation.

 

I hope that this insight into the moderation process is helpful.

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KA,

 

As always a good description of what goes on behind the curtain.

 

I think for the most part that is some of the frustration that people feel here. There tends to be next to no amount of communication about what is going on. For me that is where I term these things as going into a black hole. Yes I know nobody has to give me any details of what may or may not be going on. But if one chooses not to then they have to do that with the understanding that people will keep asking or will make up what they want to fill in the void.

 

As for closing threads that have "derailed", I just can't agree with you on that. I just see it as a normal course of discussion. After some amount of time people will loose interest and it will drop off the first page and will become a memory. The OP has the option to close the thread and can do so if they wish. The forums are not caching, that is true. But the forums are a community of individuals that have at least one thing in common. Caching is the tie that brings us together but I don't think it should bind us.

 

Of course the point can be made that the forums are not here for our pleasure. Ok that is all well and good. But I think the forums do provide the sense of community. Without the forums or with forums and a very strict reading of what relates to geocaching and what does not it becomes less friendly and losses its sense of community. I think the site as a whole would be worse off without them. And everytime a thread is locked or the line shifts towards that very strict reading it takes a little bit of a toll on the site as a whole.

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I disagree (to a point).

 

There are MANY forums out there where you can go on and chat about anything you like. Keeping these forums limited to the topics of Geocaching are the only thing that keeps me coming back to them.

 

If I want to chat about other things, I go elsewhere.

When I want to chat about caching I come here.

I don't want to have to wade through pages of topics to find one that is related to caching; that's why I came here in the first place.

 

And, if I want to go off-topic there's a thread HERE where I can go.

 

So I'll respectfully disagree with everybody who has said that locking down threads that are derailed cheapens/weakens this site.

 

(Don't take lack of responses to any direct replies as anything other than me having to go back to work now)

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I don't post much but I do remember when I started geocaching a couple of years ago I posted a question about Navicache.

 

Back then, that word was utterly taboo. Navicache, as well as the names of some other geocaching sites were being caught by the profanity filters and asterisk-ed out. That was, to me, the height of silliness.

 

I despise censorship, but at least things have improved some since then.

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Regarding the quoted links, it would seem that posts in the GC.com forum are left open with a greater tolerance than those here on similar topics (example: similar language and attacks on volunteers in the "Virtual Cache Standards" topic have been shut down before the admin has talked to the poster; the poster calms down; information is given in posts like your's in that topic). I think that post should be a good example of how better to treat posters and posts than other closed examples.

 

But a good portion of the quoted links don't have too much to do with controversy on how the website is run (e.g., end of geocaching, saturation rule, navicache/gc.com polling, new feature: cache rating). There are one or two that were contentious issues that haven't been closed though. So my earlier comment on "no open discussion"...may be more appropriate as "very limited open discussion".

 

I certainly think that direct criticism of actions and decisions or non-decisions by the staff of this website has been highly supressed. Often the moderators and approvers are unable (or unwilling) to see criticism as a means of getting the public to recognize a potential systemic problem and not a personal attack.

 

I do have to say that if the thread's direction is being attended to by KA, it seems to have a longer half-life than most of the other moderators.

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I certainly think that direct criticism of actions and decisions or non-decisions by the staff of this website has been highly supressed. Often the moderators and approvers are unable (or unwilling) to see criticism as a means of getting the public to recognize a potential systemic problem and not a personal attack.

To be honest, I think this has more to do with posters not being able to clearly communicate a systemic problem and phrashing things such as they appear to be personal attacks.

 

And remember, these people are humans and volunteers. Who said that they HAVE to sit back and take the criticism anyway??

 

Ju66l3r - not refuting anything you said, just building on your thought.

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I don't post much but I do remember when I started geocaching a couple of years ago I posted a question about Navicache.

 

Back then, that word was utterly taboo. Navicache, as well as the names of some other geocaching sites were being caught by the profanity filters and asterisk-ed out. That was, to me, the height of silliness.

 

I despise censorship, but at least things have improved some since then.

I thought I would check back in here once today and I really thought either my account would be closed or at the least this thread. I hate censorship. It is very unAmerican. It's kinda like this place says, my way or the highway. I chose the highway. It's like they treat us like we are in grade school or something. Ooh, that post said Osama thats political. But lets talk about this movie that has absolutely nothing to do with Geocaching. It's a double standard and it stinks. I guess if it is off topic but interests a mod or if they agree with it they leave it alone but if they don't agree with it or if it is off topic (and not interesting to them) they kill it. It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

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I thought I would check back in here once today and I really thought either my account would be closed or at the least this thread. I hate censorship. It is very unAmerican. It's kinda like this place says, my way or the highway. I chose the highway. It's like they treat us like we are in grade school or something. Ooh, that post said Osama thats political. But lets talk about this movie that has absolutely nothing to do with Geocaching. It's a double standard and it stinks. I guess if it is off topic but interests a mod or if they agree with it they leave it alone but if they don't agree with it or if it is off topic (and not interesting to them) they kill it. It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

What exactly do the Groundspeak forums have to do with geocaching?????

 

The majority of geocachers do not read the forums.

 

Most of the cachers I know don't know about the forums, or didn't like them so they don't post or read the forums.

 

That hasn't stopped their geocaching.

 

southdeltan

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It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

 

www.navicache.com

www.opencaching.com

for starters. There are more

 

Unfortunately, you'll find they also moderate their forums.

Edited by briansnat
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It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

 

www.navicache.com

www.opencaching.com

for starters. There are more

 

Unfortunately, you'll find they also moderate their forums.

Moderating forums is okay and it is great. Places don't need spammers and things like that. It just is kinda silly to close a thread because it refers to "Osama" saying its off topic/political but yet in another thread they are allowing a discussion about the move National Treasure! The Osama thread was joking about putting a cache at his house, the one about the movie isn't about caching at all. It is a blatant double standard. Obviously the mod's like talking about the movie or something like that and are allowing that but bring up Osama and it gets shut down for whatever reason.

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It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

 

www.navicache.com

www.opencaching.com

for starters. There are more

 

Unfortunately, you'll find they also moderate their forums.

Moderating forums is okay and it is great. Places don't need spammers and things like that. It just is kinda silly to close a thread because it refers to "Osama" saying its off topic/political but yet in another thread they are allowing a discussion about the move National Treasure! The Osama thread was joking about putting a cache at his house, the one about the movie isn't about caching at all. It is a blatant double standard. Obviously the mod's like talking about the movie or something like that and are allowing that but bring up Osama and it gets shut down for whatever reason.

That's nice and all, but this a private website and they can moderate it as they see fit. (Incidentally, "National Treasure" is about treasure hunting, geocaching could be seen as treasure hunting. Talking about Osoma bin Laden on a worldwide forum has the potential to create a huge flame war. Not everybody that uses geocaching.com has the same views on OBL. Why let a flame war begin? Personally I find joking about that to be distasteful).

 

HOWEVER, you still haven't answered my question.

 

What do the forums have to do with ACTUAL geocaching?

 

sd

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It just stinks so alas I will go hang out on another board I frequent and maybe one day will return to geocaching on another site as newer sites start to arise.

 

www.navicache.com

www.opencaching.com

for starters. There are more

 

Unfortunately, you'll find they also moderate their forums.

Moderating forums is okay and it is great. Places don't need spammers and things like that. It just is kinda silly to close a thread because it refers to "Osama" saying its off topic/political but yet in another thread they are allowing a discussion about the move National Treasure! The Osama thread was joking about putting a cache at his house, the one about the movie isn't about caching at all. It is a blatant double standard. Obviously the mod's like talking about the movie or something like that and are allowing that but bring up Osama and it gets shut down for whatever reason.

That's nice and all, but this a private website and they can moderate it as they see fit. (Incidentally, "National Treasure" is about treasure hunting, geocaching could be seen as treasure hunting. Talking about Osoma bin Laden on a worldwide forum has the potential to create a huge flame war. Not everybody that uses geocaching.com has the same views on OBL. Why let a flame war begin? Personally I find joking about that to be distasteful).

 

HOWEVER, you still haven't answered my question.

 

What do the forums have to do with ACTUAL geocaching?

 

sd

This isn't at all what the forums have to do with geocaching and I am not the one at issue here. I say that very respectfully to you as you have given some very valid points. But when threads are closed around here it is always said, off topic or whatever. Now, that movie doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Geocaching. The thread about Osama did have something to do with geocaching. Thats my point. Its a blatant Double Standard. Now having said that they do have a right to do whatever they want with their website as I have the right to say whatever I please about it so that it isn't obscene or anything like that and in turn they have the right to ban me or whatever if they see fit. It doesn't really matter to me at this point. I've just noticed this holier than though attitude around here with some people and this double standard shows it to be true.

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