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Passion Of The Rock Cache

southdeltan

By southdeltan
in General geocaching topics

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jeff35080

+jeff35080

Posted
Posted
You side stepped my question. I asked why people are so up in arms about this cache, since it is just references out of a widely available book.

 

It seems that many people like this book, so I reckon that's why people are a wee bit upset by what has transpired. Will there be any other book bannings?

 

You are also side stepping some of our questions :lol: Will future references to this book be against the rules for new geocaches and will old geocaches that reference it also be archived?

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southdeltan

+southdeltan

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Posted
Yep, it's a book. So are all caches which reference this particular book now going to be archived?

You side stepped my question. I asked why people are so up in arms about this cache, since it is just references out of a widely available book.

I beleive it's because a lot of people beleive this specific book is being targeted.

 

sd

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jeff35080

+jeff35080

Posted
Posted
Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

 

If you wanted to you could. I don't think you do and don't want you to do so, but if you're going to remain just a neutral venue you would need to allow it.

 

Jeremy, I realize that this isn't a neutral venue. It's a privately held company that can do as it wishes.... just tell us exactly what the rules are in this particular matter so we'll know what is and isn't acceptable from Groundspeak's POV.

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southdeltan

+southdeltan

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The topic came to my attention around 5pm my time, and since this is a global site there are folks involved who are unavailable at certain times of the day, it does take longer than a few hours to sort out the sordid details.

 

Hydee works with the approvers and I don't override what she has to say since I don't actively get involved in the approval process any more. So give it a rest. I'm sure we'll come to some conclusion by the end of the day. The cache isn't going anywhere.

If you would like - I will lock the thread and Hydee can unlock it whenever the decision is made.

 

I don't understand what's wrong with continuing the discussion until then - but if you wish I will lock the thread.

 

There are a lot of issues going on in this thread besides just religion - and it's all rather complicated.

 

sd

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted (edited)
You are also side stepping some of our questions :lol: Will future references to this book be against the rules for new geocaches and will old geocaches that reference it also be archived?

That's kind of a grey area, isn't it? The agenda, if you want to call it that, is to keep this game a safe zone from political, social, or religious agendas, which is why we frown on charity caches even though they do a lot of good. It's a plastic container in the woods, not some platform for yours or anyone else to foist your opinion on others.

 

I'm a liberterian (small "l") on many issues. You can do just about anything you want to yourself, IMO, but when you start trampling on my rights I have a problem with it. I don't want to think that geocachers have carte blanche to use their cache to promote anything except enjoying a particular spot and getting people outside.

 

All the information is still out on this particular cache, but generally puzzle caches that ask you to do some research that is easily available (such as google) seems fine, no matter what the subject is. However, there is a reasonable expectation that the cache does not have any political or religious baggage attatched to it. An extreme case would be allowing a puzzle cache that requires reading excerpts of this book in order to find the location.

 

So no, I don't have a black & white answer because there are no real black & white answers to be had on this topic. We'll see how this one goes but don't expect the general guidelines to change as a result. I do expect this particular cache archival to be lifted, but in respect to the hard work of the approvers (and my cold fear of making decisions without the appropriate information), I will wait until everyone has the opportunity to weigh in on this particular cache.

 

(edit. missed words. still sleepy)

Edited by Jeremy
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southdeltan

+southdeltan

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Don't lock the thread sd! I'm enjoying reading the responses and participating.

I don't want to lock it - but we've been asked to "Give it a rest" a few times - if they truly want that - the option to post a note that says something along the lines of:

 

Many aspects of this have been discussed already. The matter is under review. We will unlock the thread when a decision has been made.

 

[lock]

 

---

 

Another option would be to not post to the thread yourself - after asking people to calm down - which just makes people want to reply.

 

southdeltan

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jeff35080

+jeff35080

Posted
Posted
I will wait until everyone has the opportunity to weigh in on this particular cache.

 

That is a fair answer :lol: Thanks!

 

When the decision is made, just please let us know why it was made and how it will affect other currently existing caches that are similar in nature and how it might affect the approval of future caches that are similar.

 

Oh, BTW, thank you for the service to our country. Last night I never meant to imply or infer that you were a coward.

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DeskJocky

+DeskJocky

Posted
Posted
Why not let people hide and present caches themed as they wish? If they hide a political or a religious cache, we can choose to hunt or not.

 

El Diablo

Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

We allow "straight" porn caches? Man, I gotta look at my PQs more...

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
When the decision is made, just please let us know why it was made and how it will affect other currently existing caches that are similar in nature and how it might affect the approval of future caches that are similar.

You're going to be disappointed, I think. The most obvious result will be "if it doesn't become a problem we don't need to address it."

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LSUFan

+LSUFan

Posted
Posted (edited)

Major religous themes have no place in geocaching.  How would people feel if I placed a cache that was "Vote for John Kerry" And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates?

 

I believe Southdeltan's point is being lost here. This cache was archived with no explanation or forewarning. This forum has brought up the explanation that there may have been complaints against this cache. Even if there were complaints by a few, the majority have still found no problems with this cache.

 

Leaving all religious/non-religious arguments aside, any cache should not be allowed to be archived as long as no laws or regulations are broken, and there is no immediate danger to anyone. A very thin argument can be made that geocaching guidelines may have been breached. Even this is an extremely weak consensus among all the geocachers who have shared their posts on the subject. After all, these are just guidelines, that can be open to interpretation among everybody who reads them. The majority have interpreted this cache as non-offensive, so I don't understand why the minority has been allowed to archive the cache.

 

As far as this or any cache goes, it is our CHOICE to either hunt for it or not. If we either have to read the Bible or watch Farenheit 9/11 to solve a puzzle to find a cache, it's totally a choice. The main thing is, I want to HAVE that choice and not let a few in the minority dictate to me what I can or cannot do. I have to believe that everybody else also wants to have choices. If we just stand by and allow this cache to be archived by a few, then we are surely going to find our choices limited for future caches.

 

Jeremy and all of the geocaching. com people have some decisions to make that can affect our choices. Please allow us the choice to choose what caches we want to hunt for (or not hunt for). Please unarchive this cache and don't let the minority censor the fun that the majority has.

 

Thanks You

LSUFan

Edited by LSUFan
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jeff35080

+jeff35080

Posted
Posted
The most obvious result will be "if it doesn't become a problem we don't need to address it."

 

I'm not gonna get depressed yet.... I'll wait to see the final answer on this cache, but since the cache may just set a precedent, it might be good to have a wee bit of info about the hows and whys of it.

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
I'm not gonna get depressed yet.... I'll wait to see the final answer on this cache, but since the cache may just set a precedent, it might be good to have a wee bit of info about the hows and whys of it.

There is no precedent. This is not a court of law.

 

And, to make a point, we do censor here in the forums and on the geocaching.com web site. This is not a government web site. Crying foul on censorship doesn't work in a private setting.

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southdeltan

+southdeltan

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Posted
I'm not gonna get depressed yet.... I'll wait to see the final answer on this cache, but since the cache may just set a precedent, it might be good to have a wee bit of info about the hows and whys of it.

There is no precedent. This is not a court of law.

 

And, to make a point, we do censor here in the forums and on the geocaching.com web site. This is not a government web site. Crying foul on censorship doesn't work in a private setting.

I don't think that's what he meant. I can imagine that a lot of people would be upset if they felt that the cache was archived specificially because it was Christian. I can also imagine that would create, at the very least, some ripples among the same people.

 

Yea yea - I know the danger in assuming but I also know human nature.

 

sd

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RuffRidr

+RuffRidr

Posted
Posted
Why not let people hide and present caches themed as they wish? If they hide a political or a religious cache, we can choose to hunt or not.

 

El Diablo

Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

No, that would be against the law. That's CLEARLY against the decency standards of this nation.

 

Personnally I don't see how looking up something in The Bible is any different than looking up something in The DaVinci Code. They're both puzzle caches where you have to look in a book for clues. I prefer to look at at cache descriptions and decide whether or not I'd like to do them. I don't like other people doing that for me.

 

This country has gotten waaaaayyy too PC.

 

--RuffRidr

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O Crew

+O Crew

Posted
Posted
[

Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

No, that would be against the law. That's CLEARLY against the decency standards of this nation.

 

Since when is gay porn against the law? There is no real definition of obsenity other than "I know it when I see it."

 

The point of the thread is that different people are offended by different things. I would agree that porn of any kind shouldn't be in a cache regardless of legality.

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RuffRidr

+RuffRidr

Posted
Posted
[

Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

No, that would be against the law. That's CLEARLY against the decency standards of this nation.

 

Since when is gay porn against the law? There is no real definition of obsenity other than "I know it when I see it."

 

The point of the thread is that different people are offended by different things. I would agree that porn of any kind shouldn't be in a cache regardless of legality.

I didn't mean that gay porn itself was against the law. I was meaning leaving porn of any sort out in public places is against the law. Sorry for the confusion.

 

--RuffRidr

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southdeltan

+southdeltan

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I understand the intent of the rule.  However - it really seems that a helluva lot more people were offended by this being archived.

Why is that anyway? I mean, after all. It is just a book. Right?

I've done a bit more thinking on this - and granted this really doesn't have anything to do with the specific cache - it is relevant to your post.

 

It's not so much about the book - it's about rights.

 

You can do just about anything you want to yourself, IMO, but when you start trampling on my rights I have a problem with it.

 

I think a lot of people beleive that they are being singled out and their rights are being removed. That's why a lot of people are getting upset. They were told "don't push your beliefs on me" but somebody elses beliefs are (in their view) being pushed on them.

 

 

sd

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SixDogTeam

+SixDogTeam

Posted
Posted

The cache page is not an alter call. The only questionable verbiage might be the statement that the reader should be familiar with John 3:14. If the cache page required us to read something in the Koran, for example, why would that be proscribed? It wouldn't bother us. We pick and choose which caches we search for based on a number of factors, and nobody is forced to look for this one, and it's perfectly clear what it's about...This cache looks like a lot more fun than a number of lame caches I've found, including a lot of my own... We think the official disclaimer statement is a good idea...

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briansnat

+briansnat

Posted
Posted
And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates.

 

There have been some caches that required you watch a certain movie for clues. Are the admins goin to start telling us which movies are appropriate next? Since this is a family oriented sport I can see them not permitting a requirement that we view "Debbie Does Dallas", but beyond that, if someone wants you to get clues from a "critically acclaimed" film like Farenheit 9/11, that's fine with me. It's not a cache I'd seek because I wouldn't want to put a single penny in the pocket of that anti-American slob, but if others have no problem with it, hey, go for it. But in the minds of the Admins would Farenheit 9/11, or Citizen Kane be OK, but The Passion of the Christ be off limits?

 

There are a number of caches that require that people get clues from certain books. The Bible just happens to be the book of choice here and because of the way its indexed with numbers, a very easy way to create a puzzle cache. As a devout agnostic, I have no problem with a cache like this, nor as a ardent capitalist would I have a problem if someone wanted me to get my clues from The Communist Manifesto.

 

Is there some prostelyzing behind this specific cache? I can't say because I can't read the owner's mind. But even if there is, what are people so gosh darn afraid of? I've read the Bible and I find it to be part a fine work of historic fiction and part an engaging fairy tale. Because many people do take it seriously why should that make it off limits? Are people afraid that they're going to "catch Jesus" if they have to look up a verse to get coordinates?

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jeff35080

+jeff35080

Posted
Posted
It's not so much about the book - it's about rights.

 

We actually have no rights here on this private site. We can be censored and banned at Groundspeak's whim and I defend their right to do so.

 

I just wish Groundspeak would tell us exactly why the cache was archived and if there were complaints what the nature of the complaints so these types of situations can be avoided in the future.

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
I think a lot of people beleive that they are being singled out and their rights are being removed. That's why a lot of people are getting upset. They were told "don't push your beliefs on me" but somebody elses beliefs are (in their view) being pushed on them.

What rights are being removed? It's just a cache using references from a simple book, right?

 

And what beliefs do you think I have? You'd probably be wrong (back to the assumption point).

 

Christianity has the lion share of the religious "market" so it's not unusual that there would be a larger share of religiously themed caches around Christianity, right? So are these caches being unfairly attacked? Not really. There are just more of them because geocaching.com is an english web site with the majority of folks living in a Christian based country.

 

Does this thread prove the point about how any social, political, or religious agenda should be kept out of geocaching? Probably.

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Navdog

+Navdog

Posted
Posted (edited)

Maybe I'm missing something here. Not only does the cache page require you to read and investigate religious text, it is obviously stocked with religious material, read the logs. The cache owner even asks you to leave material of the same theme. My inclination would be to believe the "Rock" has a religious theme to it also.

 

It's pretty much stamped "religious" from front to back.

 

edit: It would be easy to change the elements of this cache set-up to promote any type of cause, where would we draw the line?

Edited by Navdog
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SixDogTeam

+SixDogTeam

Posted
Posted
It is just a book. Right?

It seems nobody bit on that Jeremy. It would seem that a lot of people in this thread may believe it to be quite a bit more that just a book. Anyway, on the radio now they are talking about (no joke) some communities banning Halloween costumes on the night before All Saints Day, because they may offend some witches ( or Wicken people) (I'm not making this up.) Should we ban Halloween themed caches? Nah.....

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Jeremy

Jeremy

Posted
Posted
No, that would be against the law. That's CLEARLY against the decency standards of this nation.

and this

 

This country has gotten waaaaayyy too PC.

 

Seem like conflicting statements. Gay porn caches aside, a cache that makes you read excerpts on a book supporting pedophilia, since it is covered under free speech, is acceptable in your eyes?

 

Yeah, it's a loaded question, so no need to answer. Of course it isn't.

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rjb43nh

+rjb43nh

Posted
Posted

No matter what is said about this cache someone will be upset so before I give you my take, let me first say that I am not offended by religious material. When I go on long distance hikes (6 months-2100 miles qualifies as long distance), I carry a palm-top computer with the Bible loaded on it. The program I use also has a great search-engine that allows me to find anything I want quickly.

 

Having said that I feel this cache has crossed the line and fails to meet the cache submission guidelines that are clearly stated on this site and anyone placing a cache has to agrees to. My feeling is that it could be brought into compliance with some minor changes. There is nothing wrong with using the rock as a POI even though it is painted as a symbol of the Christian faith. That rock is a found object that the cache owner felt had universal interest in a puzzle cache. The cache container however is under the control of the cache owner and the three crosses and the crown of thorns he placed there clearly expresses his convictions and intent to, perhaps, influence finders. Replacing the crosses with a large geocache label and removing the crown of thorns would correct these problems, or perceived problems, with the cache container. The fact that there are Bibles in the cache container may be pushing it but would not be a problem as long as there isn’t a specific note (like there is in the present listing) from the cache owner telling finders to take one. Just saying that the cache contains theme-related items is enough. I would suggest that the Bibles be placed in zip-lock bags to protect them from moisture.

 

The listing requires searching for several NT verses to find numbers to solve the coordinate equations. Had the cache owner stopped at just using the “For God so loved………..” quote that is fairly well known and you see signs for at almost every sporting event that would have been fine as well. The four passages you are required to find amount to a Bible lesson in my opinion, shows intent to prophesize, and is over the line. The condescending remark (You should be ashamed if you don't already know this one) in the listing, was unchristian, was totally uncalled for and doesn’t belong on any listing page, religious or not. Some say that wasn’t his intent but I only have the listing to go by, I can’t read his mind.

 

From what I have seen, most posters here on both sides are being swayed by emotion and not looking at whether this cache meets the listing guidelines or not. Perhaps the way it was archived was a little harsh and that has contributed to the problem. While I don’t assume to have the wisdom of Solomon (oops, Biblical reference), I feel that changes to the cache and the listing can allow the cache to exist and be acceptable to all. Isn’t that preferable to all this petty arguing?

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Divine

+Divine

Posted
Posted

There's couple of caches near my home coords where you have to read, or at least browse through a fiction book in order to be able to construct the final set of coordinates. The hider is intending to hide at least couple more. I've found both hidden so far, and they're really cool, so I certainly wait for more. The books are available in every library's fiction shelves, so paying for them is not necessary, although I'd be happy to go find a Fahrenheit 9/11 cache even if I had to chip in. :lol: Otherwise I fully agree with briansnat; I'd be happy to find the clues from a bible even when I happen to be irreligious myself.

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2dest

+2dest

Posted
Posted

Hmmm quite a thread here! It’s not my business to make the rules here, but I would like to express my opinion. I am “on-topic” and not trying to offend anyone. I am a Christian so I very much liked the cache theme, and I also feel like everyone should know the verse – it’s the basis of our faith. I don’t think of the bible as “religious”; the bible isn’t just a book (as I have read several times here) – it is God’s living word. Not believing that doesn’t change the fact. All caches reflect the owner’s hobbies, preferences, interests, favorite natural areas, interesting games, etc. That is what makes caching interesting; and reasonable, moral folks know where to draw the line while others try to push that line. I think some of the facts about this particular cache aren’t known to most of us, but we sure have a lively thread! Best regards!

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SixDogTeam

+SixDogTeam

Posted
Posted

The condescending remark (You should be ashamed if you don't already know this one) in the listing, was unchristian, was totally uncalled for and doesn’t belong on any listing page, religious or not.

Condescending? Yes. Uncalled for? Yes. Doesn't belong? Probably. UnChristian? Now YOU've gone over the line. We don't need to be calling each other names here.

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