Opinions On A Cache Idea . . .

February 10, 2004

I was thinking about placing a theme cache that is based on music. The idea would be that people would trade CDs or CD-Rs of songs – the objective would be to (1) introduce people to different types of music that they normally wouldn’t find, and (2) get to know fellow cachers by their musical tastes.

My questions for you experienced cachers are:

1) is this something that anyone else but me would find interesting?, and, maybe more importantly,

2) could this be perceived as illegal music swapping? (I don’t want geo-caching to get a bad name or lawsuit)

TIA - gaz

February 10, 2004

I don't really see how it could be illegal as long as it's payed for. If people started burning CDs then it might be bad, but it'd really be no different then lending the CD to a friend.

Edit: Oh and yeah, I think the idea could catch on, just make sure the CDs stay dry.

Edited February 10, 2004 by Odwolda

5.3k · February 10, 2004

1) Yes

2) Yes (well, maybe)

Make sure you tell people only to trade ORIGINAL CDs or music from bands that support bootleg trading of their music.

Edited February 10, 2004 by Stunod

4.8k · February 10, 2004

It could very well be percieved (or actual) illegal music swapping. Making a cache that says trade actual CDs is fine, but the minute people are putting CD-rs in there it is likely in violation of copyright laws (unless they are trading public domain or their own music).

Edited February 11, 2004 by carleenp

21.9k · February 10, 2004

CD's that you bought, and just don't want anymore: A perfectly fine cache theme, and one that's been done successfully all over the place. (Subject to the normal complaints about taking a U2 disk and leaving Wayne Newton as a return trade... meaning no offense to both of the Wayne Newton fans on this forum.)

CD's that you "ripped"/downloaded from the internet/copied from the original: nope. Caches based on this theme will not be approved. (With narrow exceptions for original works or works from artists that freely permit copying of their music.)

3.1k · February 10, 2004

It's totally legal to burn copies of your own CD's. I'm certain none of us would ever do anything illegal (not that trading files is illegal) and of course would only place back up CD's in such a cache. :blink:

20.7k · February 10, 2004

I haven't really studied this issue, but I imagine that one couldn't call it a back-up once it is placed in a cache.

3.1k · February 10, 2004

Lots of gray areas of course but I'm pretty sure giving away a back up disk isn't against the law. In fact my latest understanding is that it isn't illegal to take music from the internet, it's illegal to offer music on the internet and those getting busted are the ones with hundreds or thousands of music files that are being shared to the general public.

I doubt burned CD's in a cache are ever going to be a problem and I know many cachers who offer exactly such an item already.

February 10, 2004

yes

7.3k · February 10, 2004

This is a cache that someone put up in our area. It is a cd/music trading cache. It is on a very nice hike.

Music Sweet Music:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...28-c5164edfec75

February 10, 2004

CD's that you bought, and just don't want anymore: A perfectly fine cache theme, and one that's been done successfully all over the place. (Subject to the normal complaints about taking a U2 disk and leaving Wayne Newton as a return trade... meaning no offense to both of the Wayne Newton fans on this forum.)

CD's that you "ripped"/downloaded from the internet/copied from the original: nope. Caches based on this theme will not be approved. (With narrow exceptions for original works or works from artists that freely permit copying of their music.)

"Danke Schoen" for the clarifacation Keystone!!! :blink:

Long Live Wayne Newton and Tom Jones, the true masters of lounge singing!!

20.7k · February 10, 2004

...I doubt burned CD's in a cache are ever going to be a problem and I know many cachers who offer exactly such an item already.

Ummm, see KA's post above.

4.8k · February 10, 2004

Lots of gray areas of course but I'm pretty sure giving away a back up disk isn't against the law.

Fair use allows you to make backups etc. of CDs for your own personal use. Once you give a copy of that material to someone else, you have violated coyright law.

It is all about personal use. The minute you involve a copy and someone else, there are problems.

I will stay out of any moral arguments on the subject.

Edited February 10, 2004 by carleenp

1.6k · February 10, 2004

I would hunt such a cache. I have found CD's in caches. Sometimes they are really not that great. Others have been good. I found a copy of the original War of the Worlds Mercury Theatre's broadcast. That is a great listen!

I would suggest that your theme be clarified that cachers should trade CD's within a genre to avoid the Wayne for Bono deal that was warned about above. This could make a CD cache really dull really fast.

Another idea would be to find a website that lists Public Domain music or tradeable music. The cachers then download music from these sites and mix a CD of music they like and then trade the disk at the cache like a musical signature item.

February 10, 2004

Hmmm... this would raise the enticement to plunder, and eventually you'll end up with a cache of exceptionally crappy CDs. Every time someone leaves a bad CD, it will tend to stay there. You may not want that Hanson CD anymore, but would you really want to trade it for "Best of Inuit Opera"?

February 10, 2004

Hmmm... this would raise the enticement to plunder, and eventually you'll end up with a cache of exceptionally crappy CDs. Every time someone leaves a bad CD, it will tend to stay there. You may not want that Hanson CD anymore, but would you really want to trade it for "Best of Inuit Opera"?

I'll trade you the Opera CD for my CW McCall's greatest hits CD I got as a white elephant gift this year. I can only handle hearing the "Convoy" song so many times!

:blink:

3.1k · February 10, 2004

You may not want that Hanson CD anymore, but would you really want to trade it for "Best of Inuit Opera"?

You're joking, but I'll try anything once.

Be careful what you leave in a CD cache. I inadvertently caused the Feds to be called out to this one. Here's my log.

February 10, 2004

Ok, who is the bonehead geocacher who called the police about anthrax in the Rockin Robin cache?!?! especially when there must have been an Anthrax CD in there. As if a geocache in Michigan is a remotely valuable target for a bio-terrorism attack! Never underestimate the stupidity of humans.

I see they wisely neglected to log a find! They'd NEVER live that one down.

20.7k · February 11, 2004

I'll trade you the Opera CD for my CW McCall's greatest hits CD I got as a white elephant gift this year. I can only handle hearing the "Convoy" song so many times!

That depends, Is it just the old 'Convoy' stuff or is some of Chip's Steamroller tunes included?

1.3k · February 11, 2004

Lots of gray areas of course but I'm pretty sure giving away a back up disk isn't against the law.

Try again. :lol:

February 11, 2004

Lots of gray areas of course but I'm pretty sure giving away a back up disk isn't against the law. In fact my latest understanding is that it isn't illegal to take music from the internet, it's illegal to offer music on the internet and those getting busted are the ones with hundreds or thousands of music files that are being shared to the general public.

I doubt burned CD's in a cache are ever going to be a problem and I know many cachers who offer exactly such an item already.

There are no grey areas.

It's simple really, 'Fair Use' allows a person to make one backup copy of a purchased item like a music CD. This does not have to be to the same format, so backing up to a tape or MP3 is ok. You can give or sell the backup or original to someone else provided that you destroy any other copy including the original that you have.

Now, it is also illegal to own a piece of music that you have not payed for, or recieved in an illegal fashion(gifts are fine, but if the person giving you the item keeps a copy or the original you are breaking the law too). The only reason the RIAA has gone after the people who share (allow downloading) is that those people are an easier target, they can list multiple infractions easily, multiplying the offense and money owed, and it's also easier and cheaper to focus on one area of the law to try and build precedent. If they make people not want to share, then they limit the amount of files traded, going after the 'supply' side see?

Now for geocaching purposes, it would be hard to tell if the CDR in the cache is the only copy that the person placing it had, and the RIAA would see it as an 'illegal copy', so to prevent very bad publicity, and more importantly a handful of lawsuits that would be very expensive to defend against, it's best not to leave any form of copyrighted material in a cache unless it's the original item. (while the RIAA would not know if the placer kept a copy of it, they would assume not in this case)

RX

P.S. -The only real 'Grey Area' in Fair use is when it collides with certain laws like the DMCA which makes bypassing encryption/copy protection illegal, so while you are allowed to make a backup copy of your DVD movie, the easiest way to do so is to break the encryption but in so doing you would be breaking the law.(under the DMCA)

4.8k · February 11, 2004

RingXero nailed it.

P.S. -The only real 'Grey Area' in Fair use is when it collides with certain laws like the DMCA which makes bypassing encryption/copy protection illegal, so while you are allowed to make a backup copy of your DVD movie, the easiest way to do so is to break the encryption but in so doing you would be breaking the law.(under the DMCA)

There are many other "grey" areas. But nothing like what has been posted here. For example, using copyrighted music made for a dance show in another dance show but with different choreography (Sp? doesn't look right to me).

3.1k · February 11, 2004

So it appears to be less than a great idea. I bow to those with more knowledge.

2.4k · February 11, 2004

You spelled choreography correctly. Now spell onomotopoeia. :lol:

I've been leaving CDs in caches lately. My kids have transferred almost everything to iPod, and left literally hundreds of CDs with us. They don't want them any more, and I WILL NOT listen to them, so I'm giving them away. Whether anyone else wants them is a question to be answered. These are the original CDs, in the original jewel cases, none are duplicates.

Edited February 11, 2004 by NightPilot

1.3k · February 11, 2004

I'd like to pose a question for anyone who is familiar with copyright laws as they apply to movies and music. If two people (two friends, roommates for instance) pitch in half the price for a DVD or music CD, and then decide to back up the disk, can they each have a personal copy of the backup? They would have "joint ownership" of the product because they both contributed an equal amount to the purchase. You can't have half of the license. You couldn't expect each person to only listen to one side of their headphones, or only listen to half of the album. The next logical step (if it is legal for persons to share a license) is to create a group of music fans hundreds of thousands strong, and pool their money to buy one copy of every album ever recorded. Then they could all share the ownership of the license. (I'm sure there is some legal junk to prevent this.) Still, married couples probably get to share ownership of copyrighted music and movies.

I know a bunch of people will disagree, but I feel that once a movie or song is broadcast on radio or television, it should be public domain. It's not like you couldn't record it.

The world is changing. The ease of transferring music and other copyrighted materials over the internet will make it impossible to put a stop to this growing trend. Eventually it could become like prohibition, they will give up because it's a futile battle.

The record and movie companies need to offer something in the packaging that makes buying an original copy worthwhile. Something that can't be readily passed along over the internet. I hate to be the one who suggests it, but perhaps if they came up wiht a new media format that required a uniqe key code to play. It wouldn't go over well with consumers who would have to buy new players, (probably enough to render it unprofitable) but it would put a serious dent in casual file sharing piracy.

How does all this apply to caching? I have a decent collection of DVD's, and I'd love to share them with other cachers. Unfortunately, it's not legal to do so if I still retain a copy. I have left movies in caches before. (Original media, no copies in the cache, or at home with me.) If you can make copies of music that have no personally identifiable information about you or your computer, you could leave them in caches all over. If you don't mention the trade in the log there's no telling who put it in there.

Still, if it became a commonplace practice, the same laws that are being used to shut down peer to peer file sharing networks could be applied to geocaching and ruin the fun for all of us. Nobody wants that to happen. So, whether you agree with me or not, whether you think music should be public domain after it is broadcast, it doesn't matter. It's still illegal and we have to put up with that for the best interest of geocaching. What you do with your copyrighted materials outside of caching is between you and the record companies. :lol:

February 11, 2004

We found DJ's Delight a few months ago and I think it is exactly what you are talking about.

February 11, 2004

Lots of gray areas of course but I'm pretty sure giving away a back up disk isn't against the law.

Indeed there are lots of grey areas. We are dealing with civil law not criminal. Until it is tested in court, who knows what crosses the line. As one who is engaged in a business involving intellectual property and copyrights (photographs) I am very much concerned about the cavalier manner in which people treat them. If it were their work, they would not be so quick to rationalize or justify the theft!

20.7k · February 11, 2004

...I've been leaving CDs in caches lately. My kids have transferred almost everything to iPod, and left literally hundreds of CDs with us. ... These are the original CDs, in the original jewel cases, none are duplicates.

You are breaking the law. While the cds you are trading are the originals, the back-up copies are still possessed and used. These mp3s would have to be deleted in order to legally give away or sell the originals.

5.3k · February 11, 2004

You spelled choreography correctly. Now spell onomotopoeia.

onomatopoeia

Edited February 11, 2004 by Stunod

20.7k · February 11, 2004

... If two people (two friends, roommates for instance) pitch in half the price for a DVD or music CD, and then decide to back up the disk, can they each have a personal copy of the backup? ...

My feeling is that the answer is found in the answer to this question:

'What's a Back-up?'

To me, a back-up is a copy that isn't used, but kept in case the original is damaged. In the case of transferring a cd to mp3, the mp3 copy would be the one used and the original would be the back-up. If we take this as the definition of a back-up, the two friends would be able to share a single copy of the cd or dvd and create a back-up copy or copies, but would not be able to burn multiple copies for each of their use.

February 11, 2004

You may not want that Hanson CD anymore, but would you really want to trade it for "Best of Inuit Opera"?

For me any Marilyn Manson CD would be garbage, but I would actually take the Inuit CD. People's tastes are different. You could pick up one, listen to it, and if you don't like it bring it back. I would love to see a CD cache in my area. Just this past weekend I put a CD of Caboclo music in a regular cache. (Caboclo = decendants of whites/Amazon natives in Brazil).

20.7k · February 11, 2004

...I know a bunch of people will disagree, but I feel that once a movie or song is broadcast on radio or television, it should be public domain. It's not like you couldn't record it. ...

The Supreme Court has ruled on the issue of recording of copyrighted work.

The Court ruled that ‘time shifting’ is allowed. In other words, we can record a show on our VCR if our intention is to watch it later rather than watch it again. On the other hand, if we record a movie on Tivo and intend to watch it for frequent viewing, it is considered ‘librarying’ and is not clear whether that is considered fair use.

Edited February 11, 2004 by sbell111

February 11, 2004

People seem to think that if the police aren't busting down your door then it's a 'grey area', well it's not. Personal views of what's right and wrong aside, we have the law. While judges are in place to adjudicate the law and by being human also try and follow the spirit as well. Just because you don't want to be called a thief doesnt mean you operate under a 'grey area'.

'Librarying' is not covered under Fair Use. Time-Shifitng is now allowed, but you are supposed to delete the content after completely viewing the material. 'Librarying' is illegal, the reason why there is not alot of precedent set is that in the recent past there has been no reason to pursue it, although when the VCR was first introduced it was, again when tape recorders where introduced, both dropped with no real resolution as the tapes degrade and comercials almost always are still present. (a premium copy 'tax' was created for blank audio tapes and may still be in effect I think) Once a large enough group get PVR type devices and start copying perfect digital and/or HDTV quality shows, burned to DVD(or kept on a 'server') without any comercials as they are automatically removed, then we will see some action on this front, as income sources will be hurt. Already there have been lawsuits about the features that make it easy to remove the commercials.

Movie caches have been created, music ones as well, they work well, but don't use copies of the media, and don't use the originals provided to make yourself a copy then trade the original back. If you do keep a copy for goodness sake don't tell anyone about it, don't post about it, make as if you are doing exactly what you are doing(stealing). Keep Geocaching far away from the hamfisted hammer of copyright law, with a few well placed and worded legal actions from the RIAA/MPAA both this website and the 'other' one could be closed pending a resolution which could take anywhere from a couple of weeks to years.

Now sorry to be long winded, but this is a personal pet peeve of mine, and I have tried to keep things as brief as possible. Personally I think the content providers are raking the content creators over hot coals, they charge too high a premium on what they(the providers) do, and in most cases just leach off of the creators' works. I also think the DMCA should be revoked in full, that laws should be made and reiterated that end user license agreements cannot supercede state and federal law. I could go on forever, but this isn't the forum.

RX

February 11, 2004

Doesn't anybody worry about putting CD's from unknown sources into their machines? I was considering using a blank CD-RW as a Travel Bug, and suggesting that each finder burn some sort of offbeat file onto it that others might find interesting.

But when I considered all the digital diseases (viruses, worms, trojan horses, etc.) that are always making the rounds, I decided it might not be a very cool idea after all ...

3.5k · February 11, 2004

ncfinn: For me any Marilyn Manson CD would be garbage, but I would actually take the Inuit CD. People's tastes are different. You could pick up one, listen to it, and if you don't like it bring it back. I would love to see a CD cache in my area. Just this past weekend I put a CD of Caboclo music in a regular cache. (Caboclo = decendants of whites/Amazon natives in Brazil).

Place one, buddy!

2.4k · February 12, 2004

onomatopoeia

Well, what I typed sounds like the real thing, so it must be the same thing, no?

For all I know, those mp3s are long gone anyway. The only other choice is to throw them in the garbage, and that just seems stupid. When the RIAA sues me, I'll think about doing that.

Opinions On A Cache Idea . . .

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