Geo-hot Potato

January 14, 2004

I never did understand those that enjoyed pulling the wings off flies! Now I am the fly :unsure:

January 14, 2004

It's still early in the game. All North needs is a 2 move combination to start racking up the points for it's team.

2.5k · January 14, 2004

It's still early in the game. All North needs is a 2 move combination to start racking up the points for it's team.

Easier said than done though.

When two people are ready willing and able to respond in the middle of the night it is difficult to get the spud back in our hands. We are still working on that problem.

January 14, 2004

Me thinks it will take at least two misses by South for North to score, depending on their next placement! We are struggling to get one miss!

January 14, 2004

As I said in the other topic, my belief is the game is flawed by design (in admitted 20/20 hindsight). Definitely not sour grapes re: the score, South is playing great via the rules as they exist, they're just proving (to me) that the scoring and constraints need some tweaking.

I would suggest that new players (ie, the two there this morning) might need to check-in with the ref before playing or at least publicize themselves in the topic thread. To some extent, we picked where to hide this morning based on what we knew about the folks we 'did' know about who were on the opposition.

January 14, 2004

I would suggest that new players (ie, the two there this morning) might need to check-in with the ref before playing or at least publicize themselves in the topic thread.

I agree though unfortunately the rules do not stipulate this. I would like to ask for the sake of fairplay that people not on the team lists do check-in before they grab the potato. Failing to do this in the future won't lead to a penalty but they will lead to a frowny face from the ref. :unsure:

FYI - Happy Gillmore declared himself on this forum on Sunday. I'm assuming kiltsurfer is declaring himself now. Are these the 2 you were referring to?

January 14, 2004

I would suggest that new players (ie, the two there this morning) might need to check-in with the ref before playing or at least publicize themselves in the topic thread

If you look at my post on Posted: Jan 10 2004, 12:41 PM It states:

Count me in on this game, I'll be on the South side. :-D

I did state that I wanted to play this game, and that I would be on the South's Side. I live in the South and my first Cache was in the South. So, by all means I should be in the south. I have been trying to get the TB from Jan 10th, but it is hard to get a hold of. I woke up at 4:15 this morning, checked the website and was out the door by 4:30, and I still missed it.

The team is doing good. I would also say for the next game we need to change some of the rules to make it more fair, but until the next game the south is going to kick your butt.

January 14, 2004

VDS is right. We have also been looking at the player's list for the north when determining a drop. At this point registering prior to playing would be considerate on the new players part because we are not changing rules during the game.

January 14, 2004

As far as the King-ons chances are of gaining ground it is still a real possibility, if the Spud Nuts fumble the ball. That is how we got our lead. It is still early in the game and anything is possible. Most games seem to be won in the last two minutes.

2.5k · January 15, 2004

Most games seem to be won in the last two minutes.

Most games have been played for quite some time and the rules have evolved for many reasons. One of those is to level the playing field. These rules are far from perfect. There needs to be changes before it is played again. We will play under these rules and still prevail. It is just that right now we are a bit behind the 8 ball. The game is early. That part is right. We do need to discuss possible changes for next time.

January 15, 2004

A good place to discuss the possible rule changes are in the new forum post of Hot Potato Rules that TravisL started.

January 15, 2004

Sorry kiltsurfer, I missed that (I haven't quite figured out the go to the first unread post yet). You certainly did post your intentions.

January 15, 2004

Noticed this was posted on the rules board but it should probably be stated over here:

There also should be some kind of penalty for not logging right away. Both sides have held off logs of picking up the bug. Unless the bug has changed counties there is no reason to log right away. I'm not sure how that would work, but it is a problem. We knew this morning when one member went to the cache that it had been picked up by south, but it was considerable time later that it was actually logged. Note that I am not pointing fingers, both sides have done this. I am just trying to suggest better rules for next time.

Unfortunately, we have to rely on the honor system here. In some cases it's a necessity, for example if CurmudgeonlyGal were to pick up the TB and move it it would take at a minimum 2 hours and probably longer before it's logged.

I think it's unfortunate but it's starting to sound like we need to develop official penalties for breaking the rules.

But fixing the reward for holding rule with take care of this problem for the most part.

Warning: If someone is caught having a teammate place the TB for them, purposefully logging the TB late, or abusing the rules in some other way will have their points taken away.

My biggest concern with logging the TB late is having the TB taken by a non-playing person.

January 15, 2004

Kfam checking in for Pierce County. Go Team South!

1.8k · January 15, 2004

Gaviidae wrote

Warning: If someone is caught having a teammate place the TB for them, purposefully logging the TB late, or abusing the rules in some other way.

Just to be clear, though. I don't think there's a problem with handing off a TB to a team member to place (this doesn't reset the 48 hour rule), and there's no problem with having someone else log on your behalf (like a spouse who you call to say "I got it!").

Is this permissible?

January 15, 2004

Just to be clear, though. I don't think there's a problem with handing off a TB to a team member to place (this doesn't reset the 48 hour rule), and there's no problem with having someone else log on your behalf (like a spouse who you call to say "I got it!").

Is this permissible?

I'd suggest nope for both. The person who finds should be the person who hides, unless perhaps you want to put 'both' parties into the no consecutive moves freeze. The second "hey, log this for me" would make it too easy to circumvent the max hold time limit.

January 15, 2004

Sorry kiltsurfer, I missed that (I haven't quite figured out the go to the first unread post yet). You certainly did post your intentions.

I didn't notice you two on the list on the web site rosters, there are too many posts to keep track through the thread. Of course, I wasn't there on the web site when I tried a pickup this morning either. No biggie.

(other than your success to date, of course :lol: )

January 15, 2004

We have to be careful when discussing rules. We need to understand first that there is another forum for discussing rules as indicated in earlier posts. Secondly, the rules for this game were posted before the game started and any discussion of them is strictly academic as far as the current games goes.

I just re-read the rules. There is no rule stating there can or can not be a hand off. The rule about placing explains that the same person can not move the TB twice in a row without the other team moving it first. So, hand offs are permitted.

When I was deciding weither to play the game I read the posts from last years game. To my best count there were a total of six people who moved the TB. Six people in 100 day! That isn't a team sport. Not when you have thirty people playing. Sixteen or Sixty maybe, not six. We want to make the sport as fun as possible and get as many players involved. That is what it is all about.

It has been a blast stratigizing with the team. Getting lots of input from lots of people. If handing off helps promote the game and is allowable in the rules then I think it not only should be done it should be encouraged. Let's not forget the purpose of the game: Promote the sport, make new freinds, and have fun.

I think it would be a blast to have a get to gether with all registered players from both sides afterwards to meet the "enemy" and talk about the fun we had.

I could care less about getting points. I figure we all win if we meet the purpose of the game.

The rule for logging the move of the TB is clear. Post the move as soon as possible. I think it is to everyone's benefit. If you stop for breakfast at Denny's, that's cool. Enjoy the moment. Just log it in when you get home. Just so you northerners know how much we in the south respect the rules we have team members who are willing to take their laptops with internet access to the TB and log the pickup/drop off before they even leave the site. The reason we do that is to keep the potato hot. It makes the game fun for everyone.

Let's all take a deep breath and have fun. If we want to tweek the rules for the next game that is great. Let's do it on the rules forum though.

January 15, 2004

Whatever happens with the rules, I'm all for the post-game get together. Great idea. :lol:

9.5k · January 15, 2004

Yup - that about sums it up.

January 15, 2004

Enlisting for North! But can we be called the Mets instead? I hate the Yankees.

:lol:

Led Lawless

Your Friendly Neighborhood Villain

let's hear it for all the bad girls

and all the boys who play that rock'n'roll

they love it, like you love Jesus,

it does the same thing to their souls

January 15, 2004

Just to be clear, though. I don't think there's a problem with handing off a TB to a team member to place (this doesn't reset the 48 hour rule), and there's no problem with having someone else log on your behalf (like a spouse who you call to say "I got it!").

Is this permissible?

The having your spouse or whoever log for you I think is fine. In fact, I think if anything it would be advantageous to the game. The quicker it's logged the quicker it's back in play.

However, handing it off to another player seems clearly against the rules. As is listed on the TB page under important rules, "place it in a cache". Handing it off to a team mate is not placing it in a cache.

While it's clearly a TEAM sport the rules on movement all deal with A PLAYER. If there is a handoff there is no longer a player.

Also, if player A picks up the TB and then player B drops it off in a cache but player A logs it as if he went to the cache that is clearly a violation of geocaching etiquette. And should not be allowed in this game.

This rule is not definitively mentioned in the rules. You are correct that it is not expressly forbidden but neither is it expressly allowed. Which leaves us with the last rule of the game. The referee will oversee the game.

In the spirit of fair-mindnedness I'm going to have to rule the following way. For this game, hand-offs will be allowed as long as they are logged as such. And when done BOTH players will be under the no consecutive moves for 48 hours rule.

However, having one person log the TB as being dropped off by them but someone else did it is against the rules. It is deceipt and should not be acceptable in this game. (this doesn't mean someone else can't do the physical logging such as a spouse, they just have to do it under the account of the TB dropper). This is a friendly game, deceipt does not belong here.

I see no hand-offs in the record but have heard reports that a hand off has happened, in the manner of the latter illegal manner. If such is the case those points will be removed.

edit

Edited January 15, 2004 by gaviidae

January 15, 2004

We have to be careful when discussing rules. We need to understand first that there is another forum for discussing rules as indicated in earlier posts. Secondly, the rules for this game were posted before the game started and any discussion of them is strictly academic as far as the current games goes.

I just re-read the rules. There is no rule stating there can or can not be a hand off. The rule about placing explains that the same person can not move the TB twice in a row without the other team moving it first. So, hand offs are permitted.

This is a new game and as an actual active team game this is the only time it's been played. At least here. So there will be some rules that while not needing to be changed need to be clarified. And those discussions should happen here and probably mentioned over there.

The hand-off rule is such a rule. We seem to have one team with one interpretation and another with a different interpretation.

Which is why I felt I had to make a ruling on this.

There is also no rule expressly saying you can or can't booby-trap the cache. That does not mean it's okay to do that.

Thought it was worth repeating:

Let's all take a deep breath and have fun.

An event cache after the game does sound like a great idea. Winner buys dinner?

January 15, 2004

gaviidae tell me if this is correct.

Hand-off etiquette:

Player A picks up the TB. He must then log that he has it.

Player B meets Plyaer A and receives the TB. Player B must then log on the TB site that he now has the TB.

Player B must place the TB within 48 hours of when Player A logged that he picked it up.

Player A and B can not move the TB for three hours, unless the other team picks it up and places in another cache.

Simple, easy, gets more people involved, and is fun! :lol:

January 15, 2004

An event cache after the game does sound like a great idea. Winner buys dinner?

The south would be glad to buy dinner. However, it would have to be a virtual cache. :lol:

9.5k · January 15, 2004

I don't see gaviidae arguing against the hand-off. Only deceiptful logging of one person doing the move.

2.5k · January 15, 2004

In the spirit of fair-mindnedness I'm going to have to rule the following way. For this game, hand-offs will be allowed as long as they are logged as such. And when done BOTH players will be under the no consecutive moves for 48 hours rule.

edit

When does this log have to take place?

edit: removed part of quote not pertaining to question

Edited January 15, 2004 by WeightMan

January 15, 2004

Player A and B can not move the TB for three hours, unless the other team picks it up and places in another cache.

Correct except to add this part.

Players C, D, E, etc. on the team cannot move the potato for 3 hours. Players A and B cannot move the TB for 48 hours or until someone else moves it, whichever comes first.

Basically, unless it sits in the cache for 48 hours Players A & B cannot retrieve it from the cache they tag-team style placed it in.

January 15, 2004

The south would be glad to buy dinner. However, it would have to be a virtual cache.

So buying dinner is fine as long as the value of dinner is not in excess of the prize money the team wins.

January 15, 2004

When does this log have to take place?

As with all logs, "the ball should be logged as soon as possible."

January 15, 2004

gaviidae

Players C, D, E, etc. on the team cannot move the potato for 3 hours. Players A and B cannot move the TB for 48 hours or until someone else moves it, whichever comes first.

Basically, unless it sits in the cache for 48 hours Players A & B cannot retrieve it from the cache they tag-team style placed it in.

Good clarification gaviida. My bad for not including that in the etiquette :lol:

January 15, 2004

I was reminded of a recent e-mail in the WSGA e-mail list saying that competition isn't really part of "the game". For a hobby that's supposedly not about competition we sure have a lot of competitive people in it.

:lol:

I think friendly competition in geocaching is a great thing.

January 15, 2004

Ya, I agree. Who would ever want to be FTF? :lol:

1.1k · January 15, 2004

I'm somewhat curious as to how one would log a TB hand-off.

Doesn't the TB have to be dropped off into a cache for it to be handed off to someone? Therefore it would be placed into a cache and the dropping off team wouldn't be able to pick it back up again for min. 3 hours.

What am I missing here?

I'm all for hand-offs for the teams - just because someone can pick it up, doesn't necessarily mean they can place the ball again w/i the time frame _FOR_THIS_GAME_. For instance, were I to pick up the ball, I'd probably want to hold onto it for a day or two... but beings as I'm located far and away from the playing field, it may not be conducive for me to get back up to said playing field before my time is up - but I could more easily meet someone and make a hand-off. Obviously I wouldn't pick up the ball again, nor would whomever I handed the ball off to who was making the drop for me.

(I see rules evolving with a much shorter allowable hold time where there's no reason you can't pick it up and drop it off w/i those 5 miles in, say an hour - during certain hours of the day, leaving a longer hold time for night pick-ups, I guess.)

Have y'all discussed creating a point system based on how many caches the ball ends up in the territory instead of how many hours it's been held? That would keep it moving far more quickly than this 'hour' thing that's going on now.

January 15, 2004

I'm somewhat curious as to how one would log a TB hand-off.

TravisL and I did a hand-off to start the game. I just "grabbed" the TB.

Have y'all discussed creating a point system based on how many caches the ball ends up in the territory instead of how many hours it's been held? That would keep it moving far more quickly than this 'hour' thing that's going on now.

Something like that has been discussed on the rules thread.

January 15, 2004

When handing-off you would not want to put it into a cache for the other person to pick up because anyone could visit the cache by chance and take the TB. That would ruin the game.

I am meeting a team member today to hand-off the TB. We are meeting at a fast food joint in Tacoma. (Get ready north!) By meeting at a location other than a cache there is no chance of the TB being taken by a non-game player. As soon as he can he will log the hand-off on the TB site, before he places the TB in a cache. This way eveything is on the up and up and everyone knows what is going on as far as who has the TB.

I think as teams develope more strategies, and want to include more members in the play we will see more and more hand-offs in the game. It's like football. I love seeing a well executed hand-off play. Eveyone gets excited! It is unexpected and makes the game more interesting. :lol:

Edited January 15, 2004 by Happy Gillmore

1.8k · January 15, 2004

"When handing-off you would not want to put it into a cache ... because anyone could visit the cache by chance and take the TB."

You'd also have to wait three hours, risk the other team taking it, and make sure the cache that you'd put it into was within the five mile boundary.

Even if there was a cache at the Tacoma-area fast food joint (there is, about 400 feet away!), you couldn't trade through it, because it's currently more than 5 miles away.

So, assuming A has the bug, wants to get it to teammate B, and B will do the drop within 48 hours of A's original pick-up:

- It's OK for A to hand it to B. Neither of them can pick up the bug for 48 hours, without an intervening pick-up.

- It's OK for A to hand it to Z to hand it to B. A, B, or C can't pick up the bug for 48 hours, without an intervening pick-up.

- It's not OK for A to log it into an invalid cache (one which violates the rules), in order for B to retrieve it.

- If A logs it into a valid cache, it's not OK for B to retrieve it in less than 3 hours.

Questions:

- Is it OK for A to place it in an invalid cache, but not to log it? For example, A lives in Portland, B lives in Tacoma, so A places it in an Olympia cache for B to pick up, but doesn't log the cache visit.

- Is this different than leaving it with Z, if Z lives in Olympia?

- Is this different than dropping it on B's front doorstep to get when B comes home?

- Is this different than sliding it across the table to B at the fast food joint?

January 15, 2004

Is it OK for A to place it in an invalid cache, but not to log it? For example, A lives in Portland, B lives in Tacoma, so A places it in an Olympia cache for B to pick up, but doesn't log the cache visit.

I can see where this could be a real problem. Someone/anyone may happen to come across the coin not knowing anything about the game and take it. We do not what that to happen. Best solution, for a hand-off, don't put it into any cache, logged or not logged.

January 15, 2004

- Is it OK for A to place it in an invalid cache, but not to log it? For example, A lives in Portland, B lives in Tacoma, so A places it in an Olympia cache for B to pick up, but doesn't log the cache visit.

You can do whatever you want with the TB while you possess it. It wouldn't count as a move but as long as everything is logged correctly I don't see a problem with it.

So yes, you can put it in an invalid cache during your 48 hours. WARNING: I don't see a problem with the other team stealing it while it's in this invalid cache. :lol:

And to the other questions, they're all the same in my eyes. As long as you openly log the hand-off and don't put it in a valid cache it's considered a non-move. I'd request, however, mentioning in the log that it's an invalid cache so people don't jump on it accidentally.

January 15, 2004

So yes, you can put it in an invalid cache during your 48 hours. WARNING: I don't see a problem with the other team stealing it while it's in this invalid cache.

So I luck out and manage to steal the bug from the invalid cach, what would the movement constraints be? :lol:

1.8k · January 15, 2004

Someone/anyone may happen to come across the coin not knowing anything about the game and take it.

That could happen in a valid cache, too. That's why the coin has a note saying "DO NOT TAKE ME unless you know my rules".

If it gets looted/lost, we place a replacement, again.

January 15, 2004

A foul was committed by Team South. A hand-off was made but logged as if there was never a hand-off made.

I have talked to both teams and from what I gather Team South were simply pushing the boundaries of the rules and did not mean to break them or to play unfairly. However, rules are rules and there's always the risk when pushing the boundaries of accidentally crossing the line.

So a foul has officially been called on Team South but Team North has declined the penalty. So the game goes on as normal. No points are deducted but Team South must still suffer the embarassment of a from me.

Matter is closed. No further discussion of this matter should take place in here or I shall have to upgrade the to a :lol: .

Cache on...

January 15, 2004

Thank you gaviidae and Team North for understanding our intent. We wanted to move the game along and involve more players. Our error was in how to process the action. No ill was intented. Now with the clarifications both teams can move forward with proper hand-offs. :lol:

9.5k · January 15, 2004

WARNING: I don't see a problem with the other team stealing it while it's in this invalid cache.

Now you're talkin'!

9.5k · January 15, 2004

Thank you gaviidae and Team North for understanding our intent. We wanted to move the game along and involve more players. Our error was in how to process the action. No ill was intented. Now with the clarifications both teams can move forward with proper hand-offs.

No problem. We'll be expecting the same consideration if we accidentally do the same thing.

January 15, 2004

Not only will you get the some consideration, in addition to that remember "we're buying"

Edited January 15, 2004 by Happy Gillmore

1.3k · January 16, 2004

Okay quit talking amongst yourselves!!!

This thread is far to quiet!

1.1k · January 16, 2004

I want to know, just exactly, who's buying WHAT?

-=-

m

January 16, 2004

CurmudgeonlyGal Posted on Jan 15 2004, 11:31 PM
I want to know, just exactly, who's buying WHAT?

Team South is buy dinner for Team North will all the money Team North gives us for winning the game. So if Team North gives us $2000.00, we will have one great dinner!!! If they give us $.02 then the dinner's not going to be that great. So it's really up to Team North.

January 16, 2004

...

Edited January 16, 2004 by Drinksmith

Geo-hot Potato

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