Geo-hot Potato

January 9, 2004

1 Day = 1 Point

For every day the ball is on the opposing territory your team gets a point.

If TravisL had been successful at noon today moving the ball to North's territory North would have earned .08 points from the 2 hours it spent in South's territory (2 hours = .08 of a day). Currently North has .21 points and counting...

At least I believe that's how it works.

2.8k · January 9, 2004

if your description of the points are correct then it might be easier, from a bookkeeping perspective to award 1 point per hour (or 1 point for the smallest measured unit of time at least).

9.5k · January 9, 2004

Thanks Gaviidae!

Hey Travisl... you just keep holding onto that hot potato!

1.3k · January 9, 2004

Hey Travisl... you just keep holding onto that hot potato!

Not to worry. I've got fresh batteries in the gps and the BFL charged and ready to go. As soon as he drops the ball I'm all over it.

January 10, 2004

I figure it is going to take a bit of strategy by either team to get the spud moved very far. The starting position does't seem to allow much movement North to South until it moves east or west!

Having started the game it is going to be real hard living in Woodinville!

1.3k · January 10, 2004

TRAVIS!!!!!!!

I'm waiting!

January 10, 2004

The bug's web page (not the hot potato site) shows that TravisL still has it...I don't believe you can get any points that way...

January 10, 2004

My thought is that in this case, we the North, are still getting points until the bug is logged as placed in the North?

Edited January 10, 2004 by runhills

January 10, 2004

My thought is that in this case, we the North, are still getting points until the bug is logged as placed in the North?

Yep, until TravisL (or someone else) actually logs that the ball has been placed legally within North's territory North is accumulating points.

9.5k · January 10, 2004

Hey Travisl... you just keep holding onto that hot potato!

Like I said!

2.7k · January 10, 2004

Hey Travisl... you just keep holding onto that hot potato!

Like I said!

We're earning points so he can take his sweet time if he wants to :-)

9.5k · January 10, 2004

Now Travisl... you wouldn't happen to be holding onto that bug until you think one of us isn't watching so we'll sleep through the 3 hour window and have it moved twice on us northerners would ya? :tongue:

1.8k · January 10, 2004

Just dropped it off. Come 'n get it. It's new and improved, 'cause I was an ninny and lost it sometime this afternoon. That's the second time I've lost the Hot Potato in three posessions (and only the second (and first) bug I've lost). I'd better keep my hands off it for a while.

Here's my log:

Man, if I could do any worse with this bug on the first day, I don't know how.

I picked it up at 11:58 a.m., and had planned to bring it to Seekers Dog Walk 2. Instead, my brain took a vacation, and I dropped it off at 12:20 p.m. at Pizza Party Cache.

At 12:40, back at the office, I realized my mistake, but with a 1:00 meeting and a 3:00 doctor appointment coming up, I wouldn't be able to grab and drop it again.

At 2:30, I left the office, grabbed the bug, stuck it in my jacket pocket, and made it 15 minutes late to the doctor. After the doctor, I went to Pierce to register for classes, then home, then to Olive Garden for dinner.

Somewhere along the line, the hot potato lept out of my pocket, free at last, probably never to be seen again. Of course, I didn't realize this until 10:40 p.m., when I'm grabbing my jacket out of the car to hit the trail to Seekers Dog Walk.

I searched the car -- no luck. So... into my geo pack. The bug is now an Oregon geo coin, with the travel bug tracking number written on a slip of paper in a small bag containing the coin.

Left this new and improved bug in the cache at 11:00 p.m., then headed to the office. Log time: 11:15 p.m.

So no, it's not a tag and flag any more. It's an Oregon geo coin in a tiny ziploc with a note.

1.7k · January 10, 2004

That's the second time I've lost the Hot Potato in three possessions

He's possessed ? :tongue:

Perhaps a lost bug should carry a penally for the team?

We have a cacher here in Missouri who now wants to do a Hot Potato here, so we are closely watching all y'all to see how this goes. Sounds like fun.

Edited January 10, 2004 by DustyJacket

January 10, 2004

Sorry for the late notice but I will join the fray and help out Pierce County!!!

January 10, 2004

Once the bug is logged in a cache, a timer starts, and the amount of total time between having been placed[\b] in caches on one side of the border accumulates points (one whole point per 24 hours) for the opposite side's team. (So even after the bug is picked up, points are counted as if it were still in the same cache, until it is placed in a different one. So if you've picked up the bug to move it back across the line, its in your team's best interest for you to do it quickly.)

I noticed that a few rules have been changed. For one, it was permitted to move the bug via ferry as long as total travel minus ferry route was within 5 mi. Also there was no rule against multis or puzzle caches -- one of our best nabs last year was from a multi after dark.

And Bull Moose... why do you say you are excluded?

[added]

Oh... And the reason the bug didn't move terribly far from the border last year is because the teams were very competitive. There was a bucket brigade going on last year on the other side for a bit that almost sunk our side, until we broke the chain.

Edited January 10, 2004 by romulusnr

9.5k · January 10, 2004

Requesting a ruling for intentionally hanging onto the hot potato for upto 48 hours before placing it.

5.9k · January 10, 2004

OK, I guess I don't understand the game. Travis (our team) picked it up and placed it on the north side. GEMS (also our team) waited the obigitory three hours and picked it up. I suspect he'll move it farther north (by five miles) as soon as he can.

Which side is gaining time while it is in GEMS' pocket? North, since that's where it was last? Or south, since that's who has it right now?

I'm confused... :tongue:

1.8k · January 10, 2004

While GEMs has it, South is getting points, because it was last in North territory. Thus the 48 hour rule, to prevent GEMs from holding on to it too long.

5.9k · January 10, 2004

So we won't be seeing it for another 40 hours or so?

January 10, 2004

Requesting a ruling for intentionally hanging onto the hot potato for upto 48 hours before placing it.

How can someone already have intentionally held the ball too long? The game hasn't even lasted 48 hours yet! :tongue:

FWIW - If I were to change the rules I'd make it so there's a limit of 4 hours of holding the ball. GEM's can now, perfectly acceptably, hold the ball all weekend long giving no one a chance to move it and racking up 2 points for his team.

2.7k · January 10, 2004

Requesting a ruling for intentionally hanging onto the hot potato for upto 48 hours before placing it.

How can someone already have intentionally held the ball too long? The game hasn't even lasted 48 hours yet!

FWIW - If I were to change the rules I'd make it so there's a limit of 4 hours of holding the ball. GEM's can now, perfectly acceptably, hold the ball all weekend long giving no one a chance to move it and racking up 2 points for his team.

I guess GEMS likes teh running game...eat the clock. Ground Chuck! Yeah, perhaps the 48 hour rule could be re-evaluated. Perhaps 24 hours. The ball can only move 5 miles at a time.

January 10, 2004

Count me in on this game, I'll be on the South side. :tongue:

January 10, 2004

I have the potato and will be moving him/her to a strategic location within 5 miles of Seekers Dog Walk & within 48 hours, the log being enter before 3:32 am on Tuesday morning 1/12/04.

Hey Pierce email me your strategy ideas, locations, best times, etc. Also we could organize handoffs to allow even better placement.

This is a team sport. Let's organize!. & Let's keep this title!

Who said Geocaching isn't competitive! ............oh yeah that was Seth!

January 10, 2004

Yikes! North team, we're going to have to assign round-the-clock shifts or something, these guys are serious. :tongue:

January 10, 2004

Requesting a ruling for intentionally hanging onto the hot potato for upto 48 hours before placing it.

There's nothing that says you can't intentionally hold it for the limit. The limit is there, in fact, to prevent you from holding it longer.

Whether it's either good sportsmanship (or good strategy) to deliberately hold the piece (i.e. you have no other reason not to place it) in an attempt to maximize points is another matter.

It's actually to your team's *disadvantage* to hold the piece. If you were to coordinate, you could place it, with another team member ready to nab it after the 3 and move it even *further*. (Which appears to have happened last night!)

If you hold it, it doesn't move until you place it... with a rabid opposing team who's on eggshells waiting for you to drop it, and THEY have no timing restraints.

(IMHO there probably should be a rule on maximum amount of time between placing and logging, but ppl are generally good about that.)

9.5k · January 11, 2004

Requesting a ruling for intentionally hanging onto the hot potato for upto 48 hours before placing it.

How can someone already have intentionally held the ball too long? The game hasn't even lasted 48 hours yet!

FWIW - If I were to change the rules I'd make it so there's a limit of 4 hours of holding the ball. GEM's can now, perfectly acceptably, hold the ball all weekend long giving no one a chance to move it and racking up 2 points for his team.

I read GEM's log to hold it for as long as possible on the 48 hours. I just wanted to be sure I understood the ruling before it got too far.

I agree though, there should be a smaller time limit. Next time will be okay now that the game has started, but now that I understand it...

January 11, 2004

ok, I'm decaffeinated or something. Lets go through a scenario and somebody help me understand how you score points, or prevent the evil other county from scoring points.

Is the basic idea to get the bug as deeply into 'your' county as possible so it takes the max time possible (ie, the maximum 5-miles in no less than 3 hour hops) to get back to the other county ?

Is that about right ?

Seems like the folks who live very near the border (there are a bunch of us in Federal Way) could work out some kind of 'on call' thing until it makes it way up to the Redmond area or (shudder) down to deepest darkest Puyallup.

January 11, 2004

The North team really needs more members that live further south than Redmond.

9.5k · January 11, 2004

ok, I'm decaffeinated or something. Lets go through a scenario and somebody help me understand how you score points, or prevent the evil other county from scoring points.

Is the basic idea to get the bug as deeply into 'your' county as possible so it takes the max time possible (ie, the maximum 5-miles in no less than 3 hour hops) to get back to the other county ?

Is that about right ?

Seems like the folks who live very near the border (there are a bunch of us in Federal Way) could work out some kind of 'on call' thing until it makes it way up to the Redmond area or (shudder) down to deepest darkest Puyallup.

This is the way I understand it.

If you're playing for the North, your intent is to keep it as south of the dividing line as possible for points to accumulate for your (North) team.

If the ball is in the North territory by more than 5 miles, it will take at least 2 moves to move the ball south, during which time, the South team accumulates points until such time the ball is south of the dividing line.

You have 100 days or 50 points to end the game, whichever comes first.

Because GEM's is holding onto the hot potato for as close to 48 hours as possible, South will gain 2 points plus additional points during the additional time it takes North to move the HP south of the border.

This kind of feels like tic-tac-toe where the first or second move can determine the game end.

Edited January 11, 2004 by TotemLake

1.7k · January 11, 2004

Maybe I missed this, but can someone from the South retrieve it from North territory to place in a different North cache, just to keep the North cachers running around?

Or can a person only pick it up when it crosses into his/her home turf?

(This is going to be a real hoot when we try it here. Please post rules, rulings, problems, and other stuff at the end of the game, so we can try it, too, please.)

What a grand idea this is. Does anyone really know who came up with this idea?

Edited January 11, 2004 by DustyJacket

January 11, 2004

By the way, is this an acceptable place to announce that I'm playing?

North team, natch.

9.5k · January 11, 2004

By the way, is this an acceptable place to announce that I'm playing?

North team, natch.

Welcome aboard romulusnr! Look for e-mail from me after your name is added to the list.

Maybe I missed this, but can someone from the South retrieve it from North territory to place in a different North cache, just to keep the North cachers running around?

Dustyjacket,

That was why my contention about the 48 hours.

1. The TB was placed in the North Territory

2. and then picked up by a Southerner after the prerequisite 3 hours wait imposed on their team

3. to hold for 48 hours thus gaining 2 points against the Northerners,

4a. plus any additional points for the time it takes for the Northerners to locate the TB's new location and

4b. make the movement back towards the South.

1.7k · January 11, 2004

I see.

The North should get a "credit" for the time a Southerner has it after he/she picks it up out of a Northern cache.

January 11, 2004

I see no problem with the time limit, in theory, but if ppl are going to abuse it, maybe at least next game the rule needs to change.

That would be sad, though. That means everytime I hear the bug drops, I not only need to research that cache, but immediately look for possible moves, and set aside time for two caches, which are up to 5 miles away from each other. This is not ideal for night grabs, lunch-break grabs, etc. That IMO discourages play.

It should be OK to pick up the bug this morning, and drop it tomorrow morning, or no later than the morning the day after (i.e. the current limit of 48 hours).

However, when it comes right down to it, abuse of the time limit is going to be balanced out. By playing "you can't have it" with the game piece, you're riling up a growing gang of increasingly RABID opponents, just itching to get you back.

In other words, I hope you south-side guys like Graham.

January 11, 2004

That would be sad, though. That means everytime I hear the bug drops, I not only need to research that cache, but immediately look for possible moves, and set aside time for two caches, which are up to 5 miles away from each other.

Perhaps a 48 hour or shorter time limit on holding the potato but the time that it's in your posession doesn't count towards your team's points.

A big problem I see with the current rule and hour limit is that you can now pick it up on Saturday morning and hold it until Sunday night. Effectively excluding people from playing during the weekends.

I don't really buy the chomping at the bit thing. If I was on the team that was holding the potato I'd still be chomping at the bit if someone held it for 48 hours.

EDIT to add, welcome to the game romulusnr

Edited January 11, 2004 by gaviidae

January 11, 2004

Well, considering the rule is 48 hours, I'm not sure that holding it for 48 hours qualifies as "abuse"... more like using the parameters of the rules to your advantage. I mean, if holding the bug for 48 hours is abuse, then a similar claim could be made that moving the bug 5 miles is abuse, even though the limit is 5 miles.

Hey, I'm all for fierce competition... as long as the Pierce County team doesn't feel bad when King County makes a comeback and kicks their butts! B)

January 11, 2004

I tend to agree with gavidae, this is supposed to be a Hot Potato and not keep away thus there should be no point advantage to holding the bug. Not having a lot of time to think about the next placement would make the game more dependent on the post rather than behind the scenes planning? Maybe I would think differently if the bug were in enemy territory!!

Thoughts for next year!

Edited January 11, 2004 by runhills

1.7k · January 11, 2004

Maybe the team holding the potato should accrue points against them while holding it?

1.3k · January 11, 2004

Disclaimer: I might feel differently if the bug were in the South's territory.

I tend to agree that the points should only be counted for the time 'IN' a cache. But that's a discussion for next years rules.

January 11, 2004

If you want to make it a true hot potatoe. Why not give a point for each cache it is placed in instead of time. This would encourage fast movement

2.7k · January 11, 2004

If you want to make it a true hot potatoe. Why not give a point for each cache it is placed in instead of time. This would encourage fast movement

Good idea!

January 11, 2004

Another thought, the invading team always has to allow the defending team 3 hours after logging placement????? Might need to pick a boundary with a higher concentration of caches?

9.5k · January 11, 2004

If you want to make it a true hot potatoe. Why not give a point for each cache it is placed in instead of time. This would encourage fast movement

Good idea!

Now that would be a hot potato.

I guess the point that's coming across is it looks like when the game first started, you needed 48 hours to figure out where the next cache is going to be.

I don't know about the cache density of yesteryear, but this year, the cache density and the heads up time before the game started actually negates the need to figure out the cache over such an extended period of time.

Within 2 hours of having the map in hand, I already had a list of caches within the first 10 miles on either side of the border. That's two moves in either direction. Posting them on any of my map programs gives me the ability to figure beeline distance. With today's GPSrs, you can project out to the next cache to figure out how far your next cache to hide it in is.

==edited to correct where I expanded from.==

The only real time consumer is gathering up the cache information to work with. What I did was to gather up info on the first 5 miles on either side of the neutral cache. Now I'm expanding that.

Now I have 2 specific questions which don't seem to be addressed.

1. I noticed when the TB was placed at the first cache as a neutral location, the cache was a DNF but the TB was dropped there anyway. I'm assuming that would be considered an illegal move now that the game is on?

2. If the cache is a micro and too small to fit the TB into its contents, I'm thinking leaving it near the cache is also taboo?

Edited January 11, 2004 by TotemLake

1.8k · January 11, 2004

1. I noticed when the TB was placed at the first cache as a neutral location, the cache was a DNF but the TB was dropped there anyway. I'm assuming that would be considered an illegal move now that the game is on?

Right. I left it there because I wanted the game to start, and had already told everyone it would start at 7:00 that night.

2. If the cache is a micro and too small to fit the TB into its contents, I'm thinking leaving it near the cache is also taboo?

For this, I could go either way. As long as it's not easily suceptible to pilfering, I wouldn't have a problem with this. INHO, of course. It's the ref's call.

DustyJacket asked:

Does anyone really know who came up with this idea?

I'm the one who adapted it for use in the Puget Sound area, and fleshed out the rules (which, obviously, need to be tweaked again for round 3). I originally got the idea from a Groundspeak posting more than a year ago which pointed to these rules for Geofotball.

Edited January 11, 2004 by travisl

9.5k · January 11, 2004

2. If the cache is a micro and too small to fit the TB into its contents, I'm thinking leaving it near the cache is also taboo?

For this, I could go either way. As long as it's not easily suceptible to pilfering, I wouldn't have a problem with this. INHO, of course. It's the ref's call.

Ok. If I may make a suggestion then; If it is to be placed at a micro too small to fit into, then the offset needs to be mentioned if the distance is 1 foot radius and bearing needs to be mentioned if more than 1 foot not to exceed a predetermined distance of say 3-5 feet IF a suitable location isn't found within the 1 foot radius. It's already tough enough to locate a micro and the difficulty shouldn't be significantly added in locating the TB outside the micro's location.

Thoughts?

Edited January 11, 2004 by TotemLake

January 11, 2004

2. If the cache is a micro and too small to fit the TB into its contents, I'm thinking leaving it near the cache is also taboo?

For this, I could go either way. As long as it's not easily suceptible to pilfering, I wouldn't have a problem with this. INHO, of course. It's the ref's call.

I like the idea but unless we get a lot of agreement on it from the participants I'd have to call it illegal and it would continue to be treated as if in your hands.

If we really wanted to include micros the ball could be made small enough to do this. Not only would this allow us to use micros but it would limit accidental taking of the potato.

One problem with micros is that many of them are hard to find. When it takes 2 or 3 trips and a lot of time to find a cache this would give members who have done the cache before a big advantage.

On the other hand gc.com doesn't make it easy to figure out which ones are micro and which one's aren't.

So unless I hear overwhelming support for it being acceptable to place the potato next to a cache I'm going to have to stick with the rules and say it's not acceptable. Of course, none of this would matter with TravisL's original placement. It would still be unacceptable.

NOTE: I just wanted to thank TravisL for putting this together and for cobbling together the rules. Any comments are not meant to say he did a bad job just suggestions for improving the game.

January 11, 2004

It seems if we leave the TB outside of a cache we are just asking for it to come up missing. I would think that it should only be left in caches big enough to hold it.

9.5k · January 11, 2004

NOTE: I just wanted to thank TravisL for putting this together and for cobbling together the rules. Any comments are not meant to say he did a bad job just suggestions for improving the game.

Agreed wholeheartedly!

I'm also in agreement with the problems with leaving a TB outside the micro cache. I just didn't like to come up with a problem without at least presenting a solution.

January 11, 2004

Hey TravisL, See that big grin. I was just thinking about finding the Hot Potato 8" from the Acorn that you and the cache owner were unable to find! Win, lose or draw; I will always have that memory!!!

Geo-hot Potato

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